Chevrolet News:Some Chevrolet Dealers To GM: No Thanks To More Volts

[William Maley]

William Maley

Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

January 23, 2012

The Chevrolet Volt has been having a tough time in the marketplace. First was the Volt missing it's goal of 10,000 vehicles sold last year (only sold 7,671 vehicles) due to the plant being shut down back in the summer. Then there was the whole NHTSA investigation into Volt's battery, which was closed last week.

Now there's another roadblock for the Volt. Automotive News is reporting that some Chevrolet dealers are turning down Volts. In New York City, GM offered 104 Volts to its 14 local dealers last month. Dealers only took 31. Even dealers that had no problem selling Volts are being more cautious.

Brett Hedrick, dealer principal at Hedrick's Chevrolet said they have turned down offers for Volts for the past two months.

Rob Peterson, a GM spokesman confirmed that "dealer ordering is down" for the Volt. He said the reason for the drop is due to the NHTSA investigation into the Volt's battery.

Source: Autoweek

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[CanadianBacon94]

The most annoying thing is when News shows and people who don't like the volt act like they couldn't sell ten thousand when it was actually just slow production.

The ordering should pick up over time

[Drew Dowdell]

The news programs out there reporting that your Volt will burst into flames if you sneeze wrong certainly don't help. Even one of the car guys here at work thought that the Volt would catch on fire without being involved in an accident. Just goes to show how widespread the misinformation about the Volt is.

[FAPTurbo]

It doesn't help that it's a 'green' vehicle by a company that was 'bailed out' and thus, is antithetical to everything America in the eyes of a bunch of ignorant tools.

The misinformation out there, I believe, is deliberate.

[Justin Bimmer]

Clovis California!!!! That's right next to Fresno. Hedrick's Chevrolet is a quality shop.

[Justin Bimmer]

I should say too that the article says Hedrick has sold 10 Volts but that GM is pushing them on him too fast.

[bobo]

There are no carpool lanes in the Fresno-Clovis area, but I would expect sales of the Volt to pick up in the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas when the Volt becomes eligible for the solo occupant carpool decals soon.

[Justin Bimmer]

There are no carpool lanes in the Fresno-Clovis area, but I would expect sales of the Volt to pick up in the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas when the Volt becomes eligible for the solo occupant carpool decals soon.

While this is true, Fresno/Clovis is a community that is the perfect size for the volt to be able to tool around on electricity.

[Robert Hall]

There are no carpool lanes in the Fresno-Clovis area, but I would expect sales of the Volt to pick up in the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas when the Volt becomes eligible for the solo occupant carpool decals soon.

IIRC, I read that the Prius is no longer elegible for the carpool decals because of sales volume....maybe the Volt can become the new hotness for commuter cars in Cali..

[dwightlooi]

Or it could be that the limited demand for a vehicle that is "green" but which does not make economic sense had simply been tapped and exhausted.

Remember... the Volt from a room, comfort, performance or luxury standpoint is Cruze class. But, it sells for twice; $18,000 more. And that is with about $6000 worth of government subsidies. Given the $1300~1400 annual gas tab @ 32 mpg, 12,500 miles per year and $3.50 per gallon. It'll take you over 13 years to break even on the investment even if electricity is free and you never ever use the volt in its gas powered extended range mode; which will never be the case.

To buy a Volt, you have to believe in Global Warming and androgeneous carbon output beng a problem. You have to believe in it with enough idealistic frevor to want to attempt an individual and futile attempt to make a dent at your own carbon footprint. And, you have to be that kind of a person while at the same time having enough dough to say that you don't care about $18,000, will rather drive a "green" car than a more luxurious car, but not so loaded that you are in the market for a Tesla. In short, you have to be an environmental coolaid drinker with a lot but not too much cash and a distain for luxury.

Honestly, I don't see that many Knights of Templars amongst the religiously faithful.

[Drew Dowdell]

Or you have to like how the Volt drives. I happen to like the "silent 99% of the time" aspect of it in a daily driving routine.

[Robert Hall]

Or you have to like how the Volt drives. I happen to like the "silent 99% of the time" aspect of it in a daily driving routine.

One thing I've wondered about the Volt--is it quiet also? I.e. isolated from road noise, wind noise, etc (non-drivetrain noise). I've ridden in Priuses, and they aren't all that quiet..

Edited January 23, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[GMTruckGuy74]

Since we had a ride in one at the 2011 NYIAS in April, and then each the chance to drive on in August at the Philadelphia GM Main Street in Motion event, the wife and I would be happy to call a Chevrolet Volt our daily driver to work Monday through Friday. I just don't know if the rewards would be that great for our one-way commute of 33 miles (against say a Cruze LTZ or a Verano).

[ocnblu]

*holding tongue*

[hyperv6]

There are some simple factors that are in play

#1 Not all dealers are in areas where this is going to be a hot car. In fact there are many Chevy dealers between the coast that do nothing but sell Trucks and a hand full of cars. These small town dealers don't want Volts.

#2 The press of late has not helped and in time it will pass.

# 3 There are still people out there that seem to think GM's future is hinged on the Volt? GM is only looking to the Volt to give them a in with an electric car so once better batteries are at hand they will have a model they can sell. Also if they did not start to build these cars the price of them will never come down. Now that there is a market prices will drop in time.

#4 The price will be a limiting factor for a little while longer.

#5 This is more a Suburban car. People out in the sticks don't care and the city apartments and condo dwellers plug in where?

#6 The biggest thing I feel hurting the Volt are two things. Limited avail in many areas yet. I have only seen two dealer demo's here. Also the Cruze Eco has hurt it the most with good MPG and a much lower price.

The simple truth is the Volt is here and it is not going to go away. It is not here to save GM and will for the most play a limited supporting roll for the near future.

From everyone I have spoken to that has driven one they love it. With my daily drive I could use one and never use a drop of gas. I really don't care about the Enviroment part but the fuel savings would attract me if the price came down and it was offered in something other than a 4 door sedan.

[bobo]

IIRC, I read that the Prius is no longer elegible for the carpool decals because of sales volume....maybe the Volt can become the new hotness for commuter cars in Cali..

The yellow decal program, which was limited to 85,000 hybrids achieving 45 mpg, expired July 1, 2011. Only the Insight, Prius, and Civic Hybrid met the requirements. The white decal program lasts until 2015, and it is for super clean vehicles, including pure electrics, hydrogen fuel cell, and natural gas powered vehicles. The green decal program is new and limited to 40,000 vehicles. It is for Enhanced Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle, and it includes plug-in hybrids and the Volt. Article from the LA Times on the Volt getting the carpool access: http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-chevrolet-volt-20120119,0,6323739.story

Fresno is full-size pickup country, yet the Prius is a popular vehicle. The price difference is substantial between the Prius and Volt. Prius goes for about $24k for a lower level version. Volt goes for $32k after state and federal rebates, which is still a great deal. With the typical commutes in Fresno, a Volt would never need to run on gas. For that matter, a Leaf would work for most people.

The GM employee discount does not cover two vehicles: the Camaro ZL1 and the Volt. Odd that they would exempt the Volt if demand does not outstrip supply.

[pow]

Or it could be that the limited demand for a vehicle that is "green" but which does not make economic sense had simply been tapped and exhausted.

Remember... the Volt from a room, comfort, performance or luxury standpoint is Cruze class. But, it sells for twice; $18,000 more. And that is with about $6000 worth of government subsidies. Given the $1300~1400 annual gas tab @ 32 mpg, 12,500 miles per year and $3.50 per gallon. It'll take you over 13 years to break even on the investment even if electricity is free and you never ever use the volt in its gas powered extended range mode; which will never be the case.

To buy a Volt, you have to believe in Global Warming and androgeneous carbon output beng a problem. You have to believe in it with enough idealistic frevor to want to attempt an individual and futile attempt to make a dent at your own carbon footprint. And, you have to be that kind of a person while at the same time having enough dough to say that you don't care about $18,000, will rather drive a "green" car than a more luxurious car, but not so loaded that you are in the market for a Tesla. In short, you have to be an environmental coolaid drinker with a lot but not too much cash and a distain for luxury.

Honestly, I don't see that many Knights of Templars amongst the religiously faithful.

Honestly, unless you own a Volt yourself, you don't have any credibility to explain on behalf of owners why they've purchased Volts, or to characterize its drivers in such a specific and, frankly, ridiculous way.

Why don't you perform a pro forma for a Camaro SS? I'd like to see how that purchase pencils out.

[G. David Felt]

Let's not forget the dealers who still mark up these Volts way over MSRP and then use the 6K rebate to justify getting it at MSRP price. GM needs to make it a requirement for all Chevy Dealers to have at least 3 Volts on their lots, 1 for demo driving and 2 for sale and have it at a set price, 5% mark up and that is it. The No Dicker Sticker for VOLT!!!

If the dealers do not want to work with GM, then GM should go with Costco and move a tone of them at a 5% markup.

[Robert Hall]

I like the Costco idea...have any carmakers ever sold cars though Costco?

[smk4565]

The Volt is too expensive for what it is. It is Cruze/Civic/Elantra level in performance, size, features, etc at double the price as earlier stated. The electric range is not far enough and recharge time not quick enough. Draining a battery in 1 hour and needing 8 hours to recharge it isn't appealing. Battery technology just isn't good enough to make a car like the Volt desirable.

[PurdueGuy]

Draining a battery in 1 hour and needing 8 hours to recharge it isn't appealing.

Very true... except that with the Volt you can drain the battery in 1 hour and then not give a crap, since you're still getting good mileage. Your statement sounds more like a reason to not find the Leaf appealing.

[ocnblu]

The Leaf is not appealing either.

[Justin Bimmer]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

[G. David Felt]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

True they have an automotive program, but in this case, if the dealerships are not wanting to sell the cars, then sell them direct via Costco at a set price and then you just pay for the shipment cost of having the car delivered via truck to your home. GM could and Costco make a fortune this way.

[Justin Bimmer]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

True they have an automotive program, but in this case, if the dealerships are not wanting to sell the cars, then sell them direct via Costco at a set price and then you just pay for the shipment cost of having the car delivered via truck to your home. GM could and Costco make a fortune this way.

Unfortunately most states have franchise laws that require vehicle sales through licensed dealers. Remember what happened when Chrysler opened the corporate dealer in Los Angeles?

[Camino LS6]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

True they have an automotive program, but in this case, if the dealerships are not wanting to sell the cars, then sell them direct via Costco at a set price and then you just pay for the shipment cost of having the car delivered via truck to your home. GM could and Costco make a fortune this way.

Unfortunately most states have franchise laws that require vehicle sales through licensed dealers. Remember what happened when Chrysler opened the corporate dealer in Los Angeles?

Yep.

In fact, each state has its own set of franchise laws - effectively tying the manufacturer's hands.

[hyperv6]

The Franchise laws are a great burden to the MFG and will be for a long time to come. Just look at the issued GM has trying to cut the number of Chevy stores.

Hands being tied is too kind of a way to discribe it.

[G. David Felt]

Shoot the politicians, shot them all until they get rid of these stupid laws!!!

Or we can ask Costco to get a franchise license with the MFG and then sell direct on each order and have no on hand inventory. Or maybe tie it into a dealer who is responsible for taking delivery, prepping the auto and all follow up with the customer including selling Quality extended warranties to them.

Lots of options and I am sure more than one way to skin this cat!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

The Volt is too expensive for what it is. It is Cruze/Civic/Elantra level in performance, size, features, etc at double the price as earlier stated. The electric range is not far enough and recharge time not quick enough. Draining a battery in 1 hour and needing 8 hours to recharge it isn't appealing. Battery technology just isn't good enough to make a car like the Volt desirable.

It is NOT the same level as the Cruze or Civic or Elantra.

It has better feeling, gobs of torque in city driving. It feels more powerful even if the 0-60 or 1/4 mile times end up being similar.

In Regeneration mode it quieter than the Cruze which is already pretty damn quiet. It is positively Buick quiet next to the buzz bomb Elantra.

In electric only mode, few others can even come close to the quiet of the Volt.

Road noise from the tires is equal to the Cruze, better than the Civic and Elantra

Handling is excellent. The battery balanced out the front drive weight bias substantially.

Interior materials are (mostly) well above the Civic, Cruze, and Elantra. The headliner is the same as the one from my old CTS as opposed the the felt you get in the Elantra. There were a few items that were a little too carry over from the Cruze, but nothing major.

Capacitive touch

Stabilitrack, Bluetooth, heated mirrors all standard

And it is 4 hours to charge the Volt on your home dryer outlet, not 8. In your and my area, the terrain is actually an advantage. Driving out to the airport and back yielded 70+ mpg on a mostly drained battery due to the regeneration on the hills.

[Drew Dowdell]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

True they have an automotive program, but in this case, if the dealerships are not wanting to sell the cars, then sell them direct via Costco at a set price and then you just pay for the shipment cost of having the car delivered via truck to your home. GM could and Costco make a fortune this way.

Unfortunately most states have franchise laws that require vehicle sales through licensed dealers. Remember what happened when Chrysler opened the corporate dealer in Los Angeles?

No, I actually don't know that story.

[Justin Bimmer]

Despite selling company-owned CA dealer, Chrysler may face fines

Chrysler agrees to pay nearly $1M to settle LA dealer issue

[dwightlooi]

The two fundamental things people need to pay utmost attention when thinking about products in transportation is CONVENIENCE and AFFORDABILITY

• The subway works in New York City because it is convenient and affordable.
  
• High Speed Rail in California is a lousy proposition because it is neither more convenient than domestics flights nor more affordable.
  
• Electric Cars are a lousy proposition because they are neither convenient nor affordable.
  

Whether you believe in the Global Warming scam or not, whether you believe that androgynous carbon output is something society needs to regulate or not, one has to realize that the reason people choose to drive a car instead of ride a bicycle or helicopter is because for suburban dwellers it is convenient and it is affordable.

Electric cars will never be as convenient at gasoline powered cars in today's practical context. The reason is simple. The Volt's 16kWH battery for example weighs 390 lbs, takes up four times more space than a typical gasoline tank and moves the Volt 40 miles before needing an 8 hour recharge in the very limited locations where you have a Volt's recharging assembly. A Cruze carries 15.6 gallon gasoline weighing 96 lbs and taking up 1/3 as much room. This holds enough stored energy to propel the Cruze 592 miles and can be refilled at any gas station in 3 minutes. It is inconvenient to rely on an energy storage medium with 1/50th the energy density and cannot be quickly recharged to its full capacity.

Electric cars in todays context are not affordable relative to internal combustion engine powered vehicles. The Volt's drive train adds a $20,000 premium to the vehicle before any wealth transfer scheme come into play. Even if electricity is free (it is not) and the car is only operated for less than 40 miles per charge (which won't be the case for 99.9% of Volt owners) that is the monetary equivalent of 182,857 miles of driving driving at $3.50 a gallon and a modest 32 mpg in a comparibly sized and equipped Cruze. It'll be the equivalent of pre-paying for 15 years worth of gasoline. There is no practical economics in this. And, if you receive subsidies to wash away all the cost difference, then you need to ask yourself whether it is fair and just to demand that your neighbours pay higher taxes so you can drive an electric car? The problem with the government taking money from one and giving it to another, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

Edited February 1, 2012 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

Referring to the HSR in California, saying it isn't convenient is the same as saying the Pennsylvania Turnpike wasn't convenient in the 1940s because it only ran from Collegeville pa to irwin pa and didn't connect directly to Philly or Pittsburgh. The HSR segment in CA is just the starting point of a much larger network that will connect to the big cities eventually.

Half of the cost overruns it is experiencing now are from people expecting a winning lottery ticket for their land by asking quadruple or quintuple the regular market value.

The Volt isn't about saving money. It is the iPhone of cars. Leading edge technology in the transforming automotive market. That it doesn't make financial sense to the end user right now is entirely besides the point. Neither do iPhones and neither do 3-series.

[FAPTurbo]

Precisely. Cheaper electrics will soon follow that will give similar comforts, and better efficiencies.

The Volt is, and always was, a 'tech demo.' Some people refuse to acknowledge this, or just don't appear to know any better. But it's meant to be a halo vehicle for Chevrolet and it fills that gap.

[pow]

The two fundamental things people need to pay utmost attention when thinking about products in transportation is CONVENIENCE and AFFORDABILITY

• The subway works in New York City because it is convenient and affordable.
  
• High Speed Rail in California is a lousy proposition because it is neither more convenient than domestics flights nor more affordable.
  
• Electric Cars are a lousy proposition because they are neither convenient nor affordable.
  

Whether you believe in the Global Warming scam or not, whether you believe that androgynous carbon output is something society needs to regulate or not, one has to realize that the reason people choose to drive a car instead of ride a bicycle or helicopter is because for suburban dwellers it is convenient and it is affordable.

Electric cars will never be as convenient at gasoline powered cars in today's practical context. The reason is simple. The Volt's 16kWH battery for example weighs 390 lbs, takes up four times more space than a typical gasoline tank and moves the Volt 40 miles before needing an 8 hour recharge in the very limited locations where you have a Volt's recharging assembly. A Cruze carries 15.6 gallon gasoline weighing 96 lbs and taking up 1/3 as much room. This holds enough stored energy to propel the Cruze 592 miles and can be refilled at any gas station in 3 minutes. It is inconvenient to rely on an energy storage medium with 1/50th the energy density and cannot be quickly recharged to its full capacity.

Electric cars in todays context are not affordable relative to internal combustion engine powered vehicles. The Volt's drive train adds a $20,000 premium to the vehicle before any wealth transfer scheme come into play. Even if electricity is free (it is not) and the car is only operated for less than 40 miles per charge (which won't be the case for 99.9% of Volt owners) that is the monetary equivalent of 182,857 miles of driving driving at $3.50 a gallon and a modest 32 mpg in a comparibly sized and equipped Cruze. It'll be the equivalent of pre-paying for 15 years worth of gasoline. There is no practical economics in this. And, if you receive subsidies to wash away all the cost difference, then you need to ask yourself whether it is fair and just to demand that your neighbours pay higher taxes so you can drive an electric car? The problem with the government taking money from one and giving it to another, is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

You're ignoring the EV driving experience. There's no practical economics in a Camaro, either, yet owners love the car regardless. Same story with the Volt: it's fun to drive with a seamless powertrain, zero NVH, and distinctive appearance -- attributes that even wacko climate change-denying nutjobs can appreciate.

[dwightlooi]

You're ignoring the EV driving experience. There's no practical economics in a Camaro, either, yet owners love the car regardless. Same story with the Volt: it's fun to drive with a seamless powertrain, zero NVH, and distinctive appearance -- attributes that even wacko climate change-denying nutjobs can appreciate.

I am pretty sure there is a niche there. But a niche is just that, a niche. There is a niche in very light, very cramped and extremely well handling cars like the Elise too. But until the vehicle has mainstream economics and practicalities it will not be anything more than a niche.

I have nothing against electric vehicles. In fact, I absolutely believe that electric cars are the future. Their time will come when oil, gas and coal eventually become scarce enough that the economics of the alternatives naturally become competitive. When that time comes, it won't be wind, solar or farmed ethanol powering the human ciivilization. Hydrogen, being the lowest density gas or the coldest liquid in the universe, won't be the distribution medium either. It will be nuclear generation with electrical distribution. A natural consequence of that will be electric cars. When combustible liquid fuel becomes $500 a gallon, a 40 mile range, a $30K battery pack or 1500 lbs of storage cells suddenly become not so inconvenient. I am totally convinced of that eventuality.

I just do not believe that government should be in the business of forcing a premature and economically foolish transition to electric vehicles, especially by taking money from one tax payer to subsidize the believes and habits of another. Fact is the Earth still has plenty of oil, gas and coal. Being sufficiently plentiful and accessible, these sources represent the most attractive sources of energy for the next 40 ~ 80 years. Heck, there is plenty of potential sources of oil, gas and coal within the USA which we should aggressively and exhaustively explore and extract. Beyond that, we need to look at where the uranium and plutonium are, and secure access to that diplomatically or militarily. I am not interested in dubiously green and exhorbitant energy. I am interested in plentiful and affordable energy. I am not interested in global leadership in "green" technology. I am interested in security of current and future energy supply.

Edited February 1, 2012 by dwightlooi

[hyperv6]

The Volt and thsi segment is not going to go away.

In the case of the Volt GM has too much money, time and rep invested to walk away.

What many here fail to understand this for all companies even Tesla that these cars are a work in progress. Thes cars are no different when the first gas cars came out in many ways. The early gas cars were short ranged, unreliable and expensive. Hell you had to in many cases mix your own fuel. As time went on the cost came down, the range came up and they became reliable. It took a while to make them into something many could afford and live with.The same thing applies here.

Add to all this the fact may more states are going to continue to force auto makers to make more green cars with their set standards like California. Also the 54 MPG is back and even if it stopped it will keep coming back even though there is no way for MFG to meet this. Yes the Chevy V8 get good MPG but even their best 4 cylinder can not meet this level yet.

We may not have the Volt as a model but I do see them installing the technology in more and more cars. We may have several small vehicles with the choice of electric, gas or a gas and electrc powertrain to meet their needs and wants.

In either case if GM walks away now on this program it will not only kill them public relations wise like the EV-1 but it will put them behind nearly every other MFG in the world.

GM needs to make it clear that this is not the car they did to save GM. They did it because it is an area all MFG are going. They also need to make it clear that right now it is the best car for the technology involved and it will become better as things become more available to improve it with new investment by all in this technology. This was not intended to be a car for everyone now or in ten years. Now 30 years from now it may well be to the point it could be the car of choice or one most could live with and afford.

The Moon was not accomplished on the first Mercury rocket shot and that is where we are. It will take time, investment and a series of models to get to where they are going. So for now it is a nich and will remain one for a while longer. But in time it will grow into a accepted segment in the market for all MFG. THe prices will fall in line with other models and you will have a choice as it will never fully replace gas.

[Drew Dowdell]

You're ignoring the EV driving experience. There's no practical economics in a Camaro, either, yet owners love the car regardless. Same story with the Volt: it's fun to drive with a seamless powertrain, zero NVH, and distinctive appearance -- attributes that even wacko climate change-denying nutjobs can appreciate.

I am pretty sure there is a niche there. But a niche is just that, a niche. There is a niche in very light, very cramped and extremely well handling cars like the Elise too. But until the vehicle has mainstream economics and practicalities it will not be anything more than a niche.

I have nothing against electric vehicles. In fact, I absolutely believe that electric cars are the future. Their time will come when oil, gas and coal eventually become scarce enough that the economics of the alternatives naturally become competitive. When that time comes, it won't be wind, solar or farmed ethanol powering the human ciivilization. Hydrogen, being the lowest density gas or the coldest liquid in the universe, won't be the distribution medium either. It will be nuclear generation with electrical distribution. A natural consequence of that will be electric cars. When combustible liquid fuel becomes $500 a gallon, a 40 mile range, a $30K battery pack or 1500 lbs of storage cells suddenly become not so inconvenient. I am totally convinced of that eventuality.

I just do not believe that government should be in the business of forcing a premature and economically foolish transition to electric vehicles, especially by taking money from one tax payer to subsidize the believes and habits of another. Fact is the Earth still has plenty of oil, gas and coal. Being sufficiently plentiful and accessible, these sources represent the most attractive sources of energy for the next 40 ~ 80 years. Heck, there is plenty of potential sources of oil, gas and coal within the USA which we should aggressively and exhaustively explore and extract. Beyond that, we need to look at where the uranium and plutonium are, and secure access to that diplomatically or militarily. I am not interested in dubiously green and exhorbitant energy. I am interested in plentiful and affordable energy. I am not interested in global leadership in "green" technology. I am interested in security of current and future energy supply.

Americans are a stubborn lot and won't change until after some cataclysmic event and even then do it half assed.

Believe in climate change or not. Believe in peak oil or not. There are two issues that the Volt addresses that cannot be denied; Air pollution and energy security. Both valid concerns of the government.

The Volt addresses both. In terms of air pollution, the Volt uses less gasoline per user mile than any other car out there save the total electrics like the Leaf and Tesla. I phrased it that way specifically to avoid the "well it only gets 37 mpg on a cross country trip" straw-man. In typical usage, Volt owners are going thousands of miles on a single tank of gas. Before you bring up the coal aspect of it, because there is an environmental aspect to the Volt, the users are more likely to select renewable energy for their power in areas where people have supplier choice. 20% of this country is powered by nuclear, so you could just as easily say that the Volt is as well.

In terms of energy security, you yourself have pointed out that the engine in the Volt can be just about anything that provides rotational power... be it diesel or a Wankel or a natural gas piston engine. What the Volt does is remove the need for "ultra responsive, quiet, smooth" gasoline engines as a requirement for a vehicle. The engine in the Volt could be an extremely slow to respond Sterling engine powered by burning puppy dogs for all the driver cares because the electric side of things addresses all drivability and responsiveness concerns.

The point is, by freeing up what provides the rotational power to the generator, you also create an enormous flexibility as to what fuels it. As CSpec is so fond of pointing out in another thread, Natural Gas is the new "oil" in this country. The Volt can be converted to a NG specific engine by GM and the driving characteristics of the car don't change one iota.

That flexibility is an important first step in assuring our own energy security.

[G. David Felt]

Costco has an automotive program that you deal with participating dealers with. The price has been prenegotiated. That is how I leased my Regal.

True they have an automotive program, but in this case, if the dealerships are not wanting to sell the cars, then sell them direct via Costco at a set price and then you just pay for the shipment cost of having the car delivered via truck to your home. GM could and Costco make a fortune this way.

Unfortunately most states have franchise laws that require vehicle sales through licensed dealers. Remember what happened when Chrysler opened the corporate dealer in Los Angeles?

I still feel that these franchise law are no different than the Unions in trying to control and keep only select people at the top.

[hyperv6]

GM has given the car the ability to drive and ride like a normal car. The key now is to make it cheaper to sell and operate.

People shop with their wallets anymore. They all hate Wallmart and products from China but when push comes to shove they still choose product by the price.

It will take time but the price of the Volt or Volt like cars will come down while gas powered cars will climb because of the added technology to meet future goverment regs. In time more people will be open to the Volt but again it is not a car for everyone.

[dwightlooi]

The problem is not with electric cars. The problem is with the completely unnecessary and ill timed push to make hybrids and electrics "mainstream". The open market will determine the price of gasoline. The price of gasoline will determine when alternatives will become attractive.

There is no shortage of fossil fuel, at least not enough to justify switching to alternatives -- not now not in the coming few decades. This is especially so given that we have lots of domestic oil, gas and coal, it is just that we are refusing to tap them because a gang of environmental zealots are in position to derail any sensible energy policy and push idiotic concepts like a "green" economy.

There is no problem with the Volt as a vehicle. Yes, it is an overly expensive and economically impractical vehicle catering a niche of buyers who desire a 40 mile plug-in range, the ability to extend that using an ICE, believe that somehow the perceived environmental contributions or that the electric driving experience is worth the price tag. But, there is a market niche for it and it can be tapped for profit. That's fine. What is not fine is to expect it to sell 60,000~100,000 copies a year and planning the project's economics around that assumption. There is nothing wrong with the Segway either, but there is something very wrong about the irrational presumption that it'll be as commonly accepted as the bicycle!

[hyperv6]

No it is simple business.

Cars will have to change in the future. Auto mfg will be forced into these new technologies at some point as pending new regulations will force them to it. California is now wanting 15% of the fleet alturnitive energy. Yes they stopped it once but don't bet on that it will continue to get overturned. Also the feds are pushing for the 53 MPG and that is not likley with just gas engine.

To meet these future demands will require many things. New smaller cars, new lighter materials and new and different drivelines that is unless someone can find that 100 MPG Fish Carb that the oil companies bought and have hidden in Roswell.

To meet these demads of tomarrow will require spending on these technologies today. Companies just can invest in 2025 technology now without some kind of return now. This is going to be an expensive 13 years in the future and the ground will be gained a little at a time and some money will come back with intergration of these technologies in these new cars.

By creating markets for these cars suppliers will be more inclined to invest in development and work with the automakers. The fact is if there was not a market for better electric car batteries who would spend the billions needed to develope them?

While these cars will not be profit centers they will help offset some of the development cost. It goes back to the chicken or the egg.

The same needs done on Hydrogen cars. They are able to be produced but the issues of the lack filling stations is major issue. Also thinks like fill times as some of these cars have been know to take up to 30 mins depending on the system doing the fill.

The Volt is only one of many more stepping stones to the future. It has taken the electric car from the over sized golf car class to a car the average person could live with. The next gen will lower cost and increase ranges. Things learned here will also be applies to other vehicles and even trucks. This will help hold the increase in cost of these cars too as the new technologies they will have to adapt will add great cost too.

So right now if some of our green friends want to save the planet paying a high price that will offset the cost of our future vehicles more power to em.

It was a good thing that the nay sayers to Daimler, Winton and Ford did not convince them that the Horse will never be replaced by those noisey, unreliable, dirty, over priced cantraptions they call an automobile.

This is a case when you look at these cars and technology you need to have vision on where the markets are going and the great challanges they will face. The automobile will change more in the next 10 years than in any other 10 year span.

This is not a short term vision this one is looking out 10-30 years out. It has to start somewhere and the sooner you start the less you will have to spend at one time.

Edited February 1, 2012 by hyperv6

[G. David Felt]

GM has given the car the ability to drive and ride like a normal car. The key now is to make it cheaper to sell and operate.

People shop with their wallets anymore. They all hate Wallmart and products from China but when push comes to shove they still choose product by the price.

It will take time but the price of the Volt or Volt like cars will come down while gas powered cars will climb because of the added technology to meet future goverment regs. In time more people will be open to the Volt but again it is not a car for everyone.

I agre with what you say here, I personally hate the Prius due to how ugly it is, how small, the inside is as uncomfortable as getting your yearly old man check up.

The volt from what I have seen of them and been in them for short test drives is far superior and GM should show this off with matching test drives.

Yes it is not for everyone and some will still love their Toyota's. Yet keep this in mind, Take the Chevy Equinox or GMC Terrain with AWD using the VOLT Technology and you have a Auto that many people would love due to it being able to go long distances, safely get up the mountain for skiing and snowboarding and with room to haul anything.

That will make the VOLT Technology take off.

[hyperv6]

GM has given the car the ability to drive and ride like a normal car. The key now is to make it cheaper to sell and operate.

People shop with their wallets anymore. They all hate Wallmart and products from China but when push comes to shove they still choose product by the price.

It will take time but the price of the Volt or Volt like cars will come down while gas powered cars will climb because of the added technology to meet future goverment regs. In time more people will be open to the Volt but again it is not a car for everyone.

I agre with what you say here, I personally hate the Prius due to how ugly it is, how small, the inside is as uncomfortable as getting your yearly old man check up.

The volt from what I have seen of them and been in them for short test drives is far superior and GM should show this off with matching test drives.

Yes it is not for everyone and some will still love their Toyota's. Yet keep this in mind, Take the Chevy Equinox or GMC Terrain with AWD using the VOLT Technology and you have a Auto that many people would love due to it being able to go long distances, safely get up the mountain for skiing and snowboarding and with room to haul anything.

That will make the VOLT Technology take off.

We all need to keep in mind that while the Volt may improve the technology may evolve as time goes on. The way the engine and electronic may change some and other ideas to enhance the performance will come with other advances we have to see or the MFG realize.

I do see a Volt minivan coming. The car they showed in China is a natural at some point in the second and third gens. Right now the Volt we have is a real world proof of concept. It needs to be vetted by the public and critics. I really don't think GM has been suprised by the attacks.

Keep in mind the other companies have spent tons of money on their systems and they could lose their lead if GM gains a foot hold and the publics attention. Trust me there are lobbiest involved in the Washington attacks. Some of the most vocal are people from states with Toyota and Nissan plants.

At this point GM has no turning back as they can not start this over like the EV1. THe cost, the loss of time and the neg PR of dropping the Volt now would harm GM much more than the critics are now. The fact is the whole fire thing was trumped up false cause of worry.

I like Lutz side generally side with the conservitives but I will be first to say they are flat wrong misrepresenting the issues with the Volt. THey are doing more harm chasing down the Volt for political gain than any help for the future of our country. But it is a game both sides play as if the Repubs has given them the money the Dems would be doing the same thing. GM just has to do all they can to defend themselves and pay off the loans as soon as they can afford to. They really need to have a true seperation of Corp and State. This will remove the political monkey off their back

[ocnblu]

zzzzzzzzzz

[hyperv6]

You can always go back to the thread on the 130 us how much you love it again and again and again and again and again and again.

Edited February 2, 2012 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem is not with electric cars. The problem is with the completely unnecessary and ill timed push to make hybrids and electrics "mainstream". The open market will determine the price of gasoline. The price of gasoline will determine when alternatives will become attractive.

There is no shortage of fossil fuel, at least not enough to justify switching to alternatives -- not now not in the coming few decades. This is especially so given that we have lots of domestic oil, gas and coal, it is just that we are refusing to tap them because a gang of environmental zealots are in position to derail any sensible energy policy and push idiotic concepts like a "green" economy.

There is no problem with the Volt as a vehicle. Yes, it is an overly expensive and economically impractical vehicle catering a niche of buyers who desire a 40 mile plug-in range, the ability to extend that using an ICE, believe that somehow the perceived environmental contributions or that the electric driving experience is worth the price tag. But, there is a market niche for it and it can be tapped for profit. That's fine. What is not fine is to expect it to sell 60,000~100,000 copies a year and planning the project's economics around that assumption. There is nothing wrong with the Segway either, but there is something very wrong about the irrational presumption that it'll be as commonly accepted as the bicycle!

Some of the things that those "environmental zealots" are fighting are things like their kitchen faucets lighting on fire from methane getting in their water and the ground being poisoned by highly carcinogenic chemicals that end up in the water supply during the fracking operation. BOTH of which have been documented with increasing frequency here in Pennsylvania. I have a picture of a deer that was shot near one of the fracking sites in PA that is far too graphic to post here, but it is absolutely covered with softball sized cancerous tumors.... almost to the point of being something you'd see on The Simpsons.

Fracking is just getting started here in PA and already the problems it can cause are showing up in each location.

[G. David Felt]

That was freakin amazing to see, she almost gets set on fire.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think it is "zealotry" to expect my faucet won't explode.

[G. David Felt]

Oldsmoboi, was that your faucet she was talking about or are you just saying that yours does this also?

Either way, I do have bad feelings about the long term impact fracking does to the ground and I suspect we will see in 5 to 10 years medical problems from all this. Then the gov will step in and shut it all down.