GM considering Holden shut down: Weatherill

[Camino LS6]

What I'm saying is that building cars in Europe (for non-premium brands) and exporting them is folly.

Except if we go by that logic so is Holden. recall that the exchange rate between AU and the US made an unfavorable business case for importing the Commedore, Ute, Estate, etc.

It's certainly a concern, especially when you are talking about exports to the US, but largely the exchange rate is a red herring as increased production makes the overall profit such that it compensates. Holden has been very careful to cover costs based upon domestic sales and a low level of export. They build in the fexibility. This is less of an issue with markets closer to Oz.

With Opel, there is a different set of problems (GMNA style) that put it in a much worse position than Holden for export business.

[FAPTurbo]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its top sales spot to the Mazda 3!

[Camino LS6]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its sales spot to the Mazda 3!

Large? Yes by today's standards.

Archaic?

Hardly. The VF Commodore is an evolutionary advancement of Zeta which already hands BMW its ass with regularity. VF is lighter in a dramatic fashion than VE. LPG and E-85 compatibility is built in, a diesel is ready...

And government subsides in this industry are a global reality.

[Z-06]

Do you deny that GMNA, GMDAT, and GMAU have all benefitted from Opel R&D without paying much for it at all?

GM is already addressing the labor issues as Z-06 pointed out.

No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post.

Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it.

Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require?

Opel needs to back away from production in a large way.

Do you mean Opel German production? I think it should, but not the vehicle make itself.

The fact I did not like was GM pushing Russelsheim Regals in US prior to ramping up Oshawa. Yes the limited run did end up being either more expensive or losing money for GM.

Except if we go by that logic so is Holden. recall that the exchange rate between AU and the US made an unfavorable business case for importing the Commedore, Ute, Estate, etc.

No that is GM management's excuse of not bringing Holden over. AU$ was never to a point of $1.5 USD like the Euro is/was. The peak it went was ~$.9 USD. Besides, Victoria was capacity constrained when the Commodore was selling well in ASEAN, China, Mid-east along with Australia. When GM went bankrupt and when Fritz brought the Caprice here is when both worked favorably, but the damage was done.

[Z-06]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its top sales spot to the Mazda 3!

No, I will not call the platform large and archaic given the fact it was size of a 5er, extremely flexible and lighter compared to the recent 5er being churned out. GM never let the platform blossom to its full capacity.

Camino, I will not make Alpha and Zeta and future Omega mutually exclusive just because the nomenclatures are different. Knowledge from Zeta is being definitely used in the other two.

[Camino LS6]

Zo6: Yes, Opel German production.

And on the rest, I agree completely.

[Z-06]

Again, I'm not advocating for the closing of either. I feel each according to his gifts. Opel does certain things very well. Holden does certain things very well.

GM should retain both.

I also believe that if Reuss has any pull at all, Holden will remain.

Zeta isn't as flexible down in size as it needs to be. It can go up easily, but not down without retaining too much weight.

That said a good lot of what was learned in Zeta have been reincarnated into Alpha using better materials.

I see truth to this. Frankly, I think, it is GM playing brinkmanship with Australian government to get concessions. Australia is strategically important for import into markets like ASEAN, South Asia, Middle East, South Africa. I do not think it would be prudent for GM to abandon the Australian manufacturing capacity.

[Camino LS6]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its top sales spot to the Mazda 3!

No, I will not call the platform large and archaic given the fact it was size of a 5er, extremely flexible and lighter compared to the recent 5er being churned out. GM never let the platform blossom to its full capacity.

Camino, I will not make Alpha and Zeta and future Omega mutually exclusive just because the nomenclatures are different. Knowledge from Zeta is being definitely used in the other two.

Don't worry, I don't.

I do, however, expect a serious rollout in a timely fashion this time after the complete debacle that was GM's handling of Zeta.

[Intrepidation]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its top sales spot to the Mazda 3!

No, I will not call the platform large and archaic given the fact it was size of a 5er, extremely flexible and lighter compared to the recent 5er being churned out. GM never let the platform blossom to its full capacity.

Camino, I will not make Alpha and Zeta and future Omega mutually exclusive just because the nomenclatures are different. Knowledge from Zeta is being definitely used in the other two.

Actually Z06, Zeta was was the polar opposite: it wasn't flexible, ir was heavy, and it was expensive. Which is where Alpha comes in.

[Justin Bimmer]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

[Camino LS6]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

[Intrepidation]

That's a stretch.

[Justin Bimmer]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

Okay, but all of those vehicles sold by manufactured by "Holden" could be made in other places at a cost comparative basis. Last time i checked, Holden is only sold in Australia. Yeah, they have Chevrolets in NA and middle east and Vauxhalls in UK, but manufacturing in the US might make more sense.

[Robert Hall]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

Not really...Holden exports cars to other markets where they are sold under other GM brands....those Commodores and Caprices could be built elsewhere...the Holden brand is OZ (and NZ?) only...

Edited January 17, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

Okay, but all of those vehicles sold by manufactured by "Holden" could be made in other places at a cost comparative basis. Last time i checked, Holden is only sold in Australia. Yeah, they have Chevrolets in NA and middle east and Vauxhalls in UK, but manufacturing in the US might make more sense.

For some markets, I'm sure it would - for others not so much.

But having no homegrown model would surely cripple the brand in Oz.

[Robert Hall]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

Okay, but all of those vehicles sold by manufactured by "Holden" could be made in other places at a cost comparative basis. Last time i checked, Holden is only sold in Australia. Yeah, they have Chevrolets in NA and middle east and Vauxhalls in UK, but manufacturing in the US might make more sense.

For some markets, I'm sure it would - for others not so much.

But having no homegrown model would surely cripple the brand in Oz.

I wonder, though, if over time Australians have become like most buyers in the US--abandoning RWD largish cars for FWD 4cyl generics...

[Camino LS6]

Not yet.

[FAPTurbo]

I wonder, though, if over time Australians have become like most buyers in the US--abandoning RWD largish cars for FWD 4cyl generics...

They did that ages ago. Much of Australia constitutes 4Cyl petrol and diesel vehicles because the price of fuel is quadruple yours.

Considering I have an Australian passport, you should know that Australia's tastes are relatively similar to Canada's and Europe's. The Commodore and Falcon's that are sold are mostly six-cylinder models with steelies or basic alloys. And they feature incentives, too. The Commodore is Australia's Impala.

Toyota is the top selling automaker. Last summer, it sold over 85,000 vehicles (part shortage, too) and Holden occupied second place, at ~62,000. That's a 23K difference. Mazda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi occupy the middle of the top-ten list.

This whole idea that Australia is some kind of unique Oceanian oasis, a land of milk and honey where Rear Wheel Drive vehicles reign king, and V8's howl throughout the land, is about as comical as a Crocodile Dundee movie.

[Camino LS6]

That's some epic spin.

For how many years was Commodore Australia's best selling car again?

Get real.

[Robert Hall]

That's some epic spin.

For how many years was Commodore Australia's best selling car again?

Get real.

That is in the past... Isn't Holden getting the Malibu soon also (to replace the Epica)...the next Commodore will probably be badge engineered from the upcoming Epsilon II Impala... Toyota being the #1 seller indicates Aussies of today aren't that different than Genericans, buying FWD appliances....

Edited January 18, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Commodore was the best-selling car for many years running up until just now, its not like it's ancient history!

Please.

[Z-06]

Oh boy! Australian taxpayers subsidizing a large, archaic platform that underpins a family vehicle that lost its top sales spot to the Mazda 3!

No, I will not call the platform large and archaic given the fact it was size of a 5er, extremely flexible and lighter compared to the recent 5er being churned out. GM never let the platform blossom to its full capacity.

Camino, I will not make Alpha and Zeta and future Omega mutually exclusive just because the nomenclatures are different. Knowledge from Zeta is being definitely used in the other two.

Actually Z06, Zeta was was the polar opposite: it wasn't flexible, ir was heavy, and it was expensive. Which is where Alpha comes in.

A flexible platform is one that can have multitudes of wheelbases, powertrains and ability to scale.

Zeta can be had in three different wheelbases, can carry multitude of engines and powertrains, was/is basis of design of a bigger platform which may/may not be Omega, was base of wider and longer GMC Denali concept with capability to carry heavy loads. That is flexibility to me. Put it simply this way, it is/was an Epsilon of RWD. Just because Zeta could not go smaller does not mean it is inflexible. EP II does not go smaller either hence Delta II and Delta II does not go smaller hence Gamma II, does that make those two platforms inflexible? Alpha was always on the horizon after Zeta and hence the Torana concept was shown.

Speaking of inflexible it is the Solstice platform.

[Z-06]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Ability to be flexible is what GM is seeking. The points that Olds, Camino and I are trying to make are that none of the manufacturing and design capabilities of ANY significant GM branches on foreign lands should be severed, pared not severed. Like it or not Holden has best RWD R&D team and no one really knows how much input it provided in Alpha and Omega. No matter how you cut the slice, Alpha's origins can be traced to Torana, at least in some form.

And even if it is trying to prove a point, GM cannot build the cars you mentioned here and profitably import them at current volumes to other parts of the world, just like Victorian plant can from Australia. Most of the markets served by Australia are within days of shipment away from Australia, with supply and logistics already established. After many years of trying GM is now making profits from small cars build here to sell here. It is not easy and fast to create the supply chain and management to turn a platform out and start making profits on shipments.

[Drew Dowdell]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Austrailia is closer to China and closer to the Middle East.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So what happens when GM starts spreading out the Alpha and Omega platforms to Chevrolet and Buick? They will be made in North America and shipped to other places is my guess. So it is just as easy to slap a holden badge on one and ship it to Australia as it is to slap a Pontiac badge on one and send it to the US. (I know there are more differences, but you get the point). So why build anything in Australia if they are importing everything but the Zetas?

Because Austrailia is closer to China and closer to the Middle East.

If I were GM and Holden was going to be closed, I would start ramping up my GM plants in South Africa, way closer to Mid-East, Europe, South America and even China and Oz are really not that far away ... That's what I would do, if I were GM that is ...

[Camino LS6]

From an American perspective, Holden requires a tiny amount of volume to remain in the black.

One good export program to North America would do the job nicely...

[Camino LS6]

And you know, without Holden we wouldn't have a Camaro that outsells every Buick, every Cadillac, almost every GMC, and many of its fellow Chevrolets (including Tahoe and Suburban).

[SAmadei]

Except if we go by that logic so is Holden. recall that the exchange rate between AU and the US made an unfavorable business case for importing the Commedore, Ute, Estate, etc.

With the dollar in something of a freefall, building cars ANYWHERE and importing them to the US is going to be something of a problem.

I agree with what Camino mentioned elsewhere, it was an excuse.

Zeta and Sigma were too heavy and not flexible enough.

Now we are waiting for the vaporous Omega platform? Again, how long are you going to make people wait? Yes, yes, big ol' bankruptcy has stopped GM from making proper RWD large cars from 1996 to 2016? 2021? 2026? Sometimes I think we'll have (mass produced) flying cars first.

GM's refusal to even market the Caprice PPV to the general public tells me GM really has no plans to do what they say.

I wouldn't bet on a Riviera being FWD. I got pushback when I suggested it should be.

Good to hear.

[SAmadei]

I wonder, though, if over time Australians have become like most buyers in the US--abandoning RWD largish cars for FWD 4cyl generics...

No, buyers in the US are abandoning medium~largish FWD cars for small FWD 4cyl generics. The RWD large car buyers are all firmly entrenched in fullsize trucks. This didn't happen in Australia due to their lack of CAFE dictating to GM that RWD large cars can't have more than 307 cubic inches of noise and no power.

Instead, in Australia, the price of petrol makes it so only people needing trucks buy them... and people wanting to save on gas can get a V6 powered RWD large car or people wanting performance can still get a V8 in the large car.

[RjION]

How does Holden's reputation in Australia compare to Opel's in Europe?

Holden has had the best selling car in Australia for many years running, they regularly beat-up on BMW in V8 Supercar racing, export globally, and are part of Australian culture.

Opel, not so much.

I have never seen an Australia V/8 SuperCar BMW ...... Must be something new.

[67impss]

Nah theyare seen seldom in this contenant been arround for quite some time