GM considering Holden shut down: Weatherill

[Oracle of Delphi]

Link: http://goo.gl/tBols

[Camino LS6]

Asshats!

[chevelle454]

Ackerson has to go. He is an idiot. He will run into the ground

[Justin Bimmer]

American workers made concessions, Opel is next, and if Holden wants to survive they should consider it too.

[Camino LS6]

I wouldn't miss Opel...

It's an enormous money-pit.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Camino LS6

[daves87rs]

I think GM will get their money....

[the_yellow_dart]

How does Holden's reputation in Australia compare to Opel's in Europe?

[Camino LS6]

How does Holden's reputation in Australia compare to Opel's in Europe?

Holden has had the best selling car in Australia for many years running, they regularly beat-up on BMW in V8 Supercar racing, export globally, and are part of Australian culture.

Opel, not so much.

[Robert Hall]

Holden as a brand has only 1 model line that is unique to them, though..the Commodore and it's variations (Calais, Caprice, wagon, ute)...the rest of the Holden line is just rebadged FWD Chevy and Opel models...

So what wasn't clear in the article is if GM is considering closing Holden's Aus manufacturing or closing the brand and operations. One scenario I could see is GM replacing the Holden brand in Aus w/ Chevrolet, since the FWD models they have now are just rebadged Chevys (Spark, Barina (Aveo), Cruze, Volt..)

Edited January 15, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Yes, Holden does more with less (the polar opposite of Opel).

You are right about the lack of clarity in the article.

[Oracle of Delphi]

This should help explain - http://goo.gl/tQLJm If it closes it will be in 2016 and it will be everything in Oz being shut down ... Remember they only have one assembly plant, everything else sold there is either GMDAT or Opel rebadged, even the Cruze is really Korean but built in Oz.

[ocnblu]

Next Commodore on Alpha, needs to be built at home in Australia.

[Blake Noble]

It's more than likely GM is looking to shut down Holden's Victoria manufacturing plant first rather than Holden being shut down entirely.

Holden, in effect, would be to Chevrolet what Vauxhall is to Opel.

Edited January 18, 2012 by black-knight

[Camino LS6]

Once again, they go after the wrong brand.

[Camino LS6]

Opel-Vauxhall are smack dab in the middle of the worst economic mess going, that's where GM should be looking to shut things down.and get out. Holden, on the other hand, is proximate to the world's strongest areas of economic growth.

Not to mention that Holden is the only part of GM that actually knows how to export.

[Intrepidation]

I don't have the stats handy but one should stop and consider which brand has contributed more towards GM as a whole, off the top of my head...

Holden

Zeta

Commedore and its body styles

Camaro

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

And all the vehicles built off those platforms.

Oh right, and the V-Body, which until Zeta the Commedore was built off.

[Camino LS6]

I don't have the stats handy but one should stop and consider which brand has contributed more towards GM as a whole, off the top of my head...

Holden

Zeta

Commedore and its body styles

Camaro

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

And all the vehicles built off those platforms.

Oh right, and the V-Body, which until Zeta the Commedore was built off.

I giant case of so what.

GME bleeds money like a stuck pig and has little hope of changing that while Opel continues to build cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't have the stats handy but one should stop and consider which brand has contributed more towards GM as a whole, off the top of my head...

Holden

Zeta

Commedore and its body styles

Camaro

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

And all the vehicles built off those platforms.

Oh right, and the V-Body, which until Zeta the Commedore was built off.

I giant case of so what.

GME bleeds money like a stuck pig and has little hope of changing that while Opel continues to build cars.

Which is more a case of poor accounting of allocation of costs on GM's part. You can't put most/all of the development burden on one division and then not reflect the profits from those developments back to that same division.

Who gets to count the profits from the Regal? I bet it is Buick and not Opel... but close to 100% of Regal development was done by GME. It was even built there for the first year. The Verano is almost entirely Opel with some extra QuietTuning thrown in. Buick gets to count the profits from that even though GME did most of the development.

That said, the same applies to the Camaro v. Holden and likely true with the ATS (though I believe the development of the overall car was more 50/50 split with GMNA)

You don't give enough credit to GM-Opel for what they do to make the rest of GM profitable. Entire lineups of cars in North America would be missing without their work. Without Opel, Chevy would be - Impala, Camaro, Colorado, Traverse and GMT-900s. Buick would be Enclave.

Blame GM's bean counters. They are the real ones at fault here.

[Robert Hall]

GME and GMDAT (or whatever it's called now) has been doing the majority of GM FWD development in recent years, it seems...

[Intrepidation]

The hot selling Cruze was developed by Opel

I don't have the stats handy but one should stop and consider which brand has contributed more towards GM as a whole, off the top of my head...

Holden

Zeta

Commedore and its body styles

Camaro

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

And all the vehicles built off those platforms.

Oh right, and the V-Body, which until Zeta the Commedore was built off.

I giant case of so what.

GME bleeds money like a stuck pig and has little hope of changing that while Opel continues to build cars.

And Holden is doing so well which is why most of the brand consits of rebadges and there are talks of shutting i down in the first place.

There are several cars developed by Opel have gon on to make big money for GM, most of GM's passenger car lineup owes its developmement from Opel. That's so what.

[Camino LS6]

None of which matters when billions are vaporizing in the hole called Opel with no end in sight.

It would be nice if Opel could downsize to the Holden level and remain - but the powers that be aren't likely to allow that.

Given that situation, killing Opel makes a ton of sense.

I do agree, however, that GMNA regularly rapes both Holden and Opel for it's own benefit and has left both holding the bag on costs without much return. In fact, a case could be made that a significant portion of Opel's problems (though not a majority) were inflicted on it by GMNA. It's even worse with Holden.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not even certain that Opel has a problem. It is an accounting issue.

GME should be charging GMNA GMDAT and GMAU for the use of the platforms it develops.

That GMNA choses to keep the money in north america is entirely a Political/Financial move.

[G. David Felt]

I'm not even certain that Opel has a problem. It is an accounting issue.

GME should be charging GMNA GMDAT and GMAU for the use of the platforms it develops.

That GMNA choses to keep the money in north america is entirely a Political/Financial move.

Totally agree with this! +1

[Z-06]

I'm not even certain that Opel has a problem. It is an accounting issue.

GME should be charging GMNA GMDAT and GMAU for the use of the platforms it develops.

That GMNA choses to keep the money in north america is entirely a Political/Financial move.

More than financial.

[SAmadei]

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

Everything based off that list sucks.

[riviera74]

Shut down Holden? I certainly hope not. Why not chop Opel down to size since Europe is in an economic malestrom not seen since WWII? Without Holden, there is no G8 or Camaro... and certainly no Zeta to build newer RWD cars.

Save Holden: Opel/Vauxhall deserves the chopping block instead.

[Robert Hall]

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

Everything based off that list sucks.

Well, it is all FWD product, but that's what the general public buys..those are GM's profitable platforms worldwide. GM, like Ford, Toyota, etc is in business to sell appliances...

[Drew Dowdell]

Opel

Epsilon

Epsilon II

Delta

Delta II

Gamma

Gamma II

Everything based off that list sucks.

Everything based off of that list generates a profit for GM. GM cannot survive on Camaro and G8 alone.

And no, the cars do NOT suck. They are exactly competitive in their respective segments. Corolla and Camry combined sell 800k a year. You want GM to just cede all of that potential money to Toyota?!? The Focus was widely reviewed as the better car than the Cruze. Look which one is selling better. Chevy can't keep Sonics on the lot more than 17 days and the Sonic is a surprisingly good car... much more so than the Fiesta or Accent. No, we know you won't physically fit in a Sonic.. but that is why GM MAKES A WIDE RANGE OF CARS FOR EVERY PURSE AND PURPOSE.

[Drew Dowdell]

Shut down Holden? I certainly hope not. Why not chop Opel down to size since Europe is in an economic malestrom not seen since WWII? Without Holden, there is no G8 or Camaro... and certainly no Zeta to build newer RWD cars.

Save Holden: Opel/Vauxhall deserves the chopping block instead.

Zeta is dead in the future. No new Zeta cars are coming. Dead Dead Dead Deader and Dead. Get over it, cry a little and move on.

Alpha is able to be scaled up above the current sigma chassis. Omega is being built to run the next size up.

Zeta is DEAD.

Opel is where development for well over 50% of GM's lineup originates. Just because the Opel BRAND is losing money doesn't mean that Opel isn't an important link in the GM chain.

I'm not advocating closing EITHER. I just think all of this ire directed at Opel is FOOLISH AND SHORT SIGHTED FOOT STOMPING by people mad they might not get their way.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Shut down Holden? I certainly hope not. Why not chop Opel down to size since Europe is in an economic malestrom not seen since WWII? Without Holden, there is no G8 or Camaro... and certainly no Zeta to build newer RWD cars.

Save Holden: Opel/Vauxhall deserves the chopping block instead.

Zeta is dead in the future. No new Zeta cars are coming. Dead Dead Dead Deader and Dead. Get over it, cry a little and move on.

Alpha is able to be scaled up above the current sigma chassis. Omega is being built to run the next size up.

Zeta is DEAD.

Opel is where development for well over 50% of GM's lineup originates. Just because the Opel BRAND is losing money doesn't mean that Opel isn't an important link in the GM chain.

I'm not advocating closing EITHER. I just think all of this ire directed at Opel is FOOLISH AND SHORT SIGHTED FOOT STOMPING by people mad they might not get their way.

Finally, someone who understands what PCS said all those years ago ... I'm sure that old GME employee is smiling wherever he is now ...

[SAmadei]

GM MAKES A WIDE RANGE OF CARS FOR EVERY PURSE AND PURPOSE.

GM does not make a large coupe... or really, a large car at all.

In the CAR range, GM makes a wide range of the same sedans with short trunks and short but tall wagons, called CUVs... plus two sports coupes that aren't really all that useful for much more than transporting two people and a bag of clubs.

Drink all the Flavor Aid all you want, GM has thrown out the baby with the bathwater and has become the new Toyota. Beige and boring. Cutting Holden is the next logical step in this progression.

Don't get me wrong, Ford is just as bad.

[Intrepidation]

GM builds cars to sell to more than 6 people. That's where the money is. GM should be and is focusing its efforts on the segments that matter to the bottom line, and to building cars the vast majority of people will want and buy first and formost. Time enough for niche cars when the core lineup is all up to par.

[SAmadei]

Apple was selling in niche quantities and was virtually given up for dead by the IT industry... but they made the perceptions of the product change and made it cool. Now Apple is massive in 3-4 different markets.

I didn't realise GTO, Kappas, G8, Monte Carlo only sold to 6 people in the last decade. Those people must have HUGE garages.

The SUV faithful need to come back to roost in a car someday, and GM has nothing roomy for them.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM is just now, after 25 years of stumbling around in the dark and stepping into a huge pile of dog $h!, regaining its balance. No, they don't make large coupe right now... you know what they do make? Three very competative small cars that the market is responding very well to. They are making Buicks that people under 75 want to go out and buy. They are making Buicks that have Lexus saying stuff like "You just wait! You just WAIT till we come out with something new! Then you'll be sorry!". They are making Cadillacs that the only way for the M3 to beat it on the track was for the BMW to be driven by a 22 year old and the Cadillac driven by a 78 year old. They are making a mid-size crossover that is selling so well they've had to move production twice in order to keep up with demand. They are making a Camaro (a large coupe if I've ever driven one) that is beating the Mustang in sales.

They have two brand new RWD platforms, one coming on line this summer and another we will see for the first time sometime next year, both with a multitude of cars planned for them, both started after bankruptcy.

Question: What other car company out there has two brand new RWD platforms? Not even Benz or BMW can claim that. The new 5-series is a cut down 7-series. The C-Class is a rehash of a platform going back to 2003. BMW and Benz's newest platforms are front wheel drive.

[Drew Dowdell]

We get it. you want a coupe. A Riviera is coming.

[ocnblu]

Whoa, this thread's pretty wild. Interesting to read.

[Camino LS6]

Most of this thread is beside the point.

Cost-cutting is what we are talking about here, not product.

And, Opel is where the waste and expense are most rampant.

Trying to cut costs by eliminating Holden is like expecting to fix personal bankruptcy by giving-up your morning coffee.

The auto industry in Europe is a 30% over-capacity, and the economic situation there is beyond volatile. Clearly, operations in that area need to be the focus.

[Drew Dowdell]

But is Opel 30% over capacity or should they just take the entire hit in the European market because you don't like them?

Opel being responsible for the development of 50% of GMNA's lineup is certainly NOT beside the point. It IS the point. Opel has developed excellent front wheel drive cars for GMNA... and excellent SMALL cars... something GMNA has NEVER been good at. You may not like the Sonic, Cruze, Verano, and Encore but they are nessesary parts of the GMNA lineup.

[Camino LS6]

But is Opel 30% over capacity or should they just take the entire hit in the European market because you don't like them?

Opel being responsible for the development of 50% of GMNA's lineup is certainly NOT beside the point. It IS the point. Opel has developed excellent front wheel drive cars for GMNA... and excellent SMALL cars... something GMNA has NEVER been good at. You may not like the Sonic, Cruze, Verano, and Encore but they are nessesary parts of the GMNA lineup.

Opel is massively over capacity and suffers from the same debilitating legacy and labor problems that GMNA did pre-bankruptcy. Add-in the disaster that the EU is in general, and something clearly needs to be done. A much smaller Opel with an emphasis on FWD development has value - I realize this. However, as a manufacturing concern, and an export concern, they are nearly hopeless and geographically challenged.

Let's not forget that Opel has lost $14.5 billion since 1999.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Camino LS6

[Z-06]

I think Olds and Camino are looking at different sides of the situation. The fact that Opel is GM's FWD design Mecca does not mean that it is not a drain to GM like Camino is stating and just because it is a money pit does not mean GM should abandon its technical expertise in Opel.

The fact is GM missed the boat of hard labor negotiations thanks to Angela Merkel's relection bid and hard handling of German government. And it is a fact that Opel is subsidizing GM's platforms.

As far as the prevention of Opel's draining, I think GM is already on to that. Since German unions seem to be hard to handle, GM seems to be moving outside and spread its wings. Chevy seems to be hedging bet for GM if German unions go on strike and prevent Opel from producing vehicles. Some of Opel's production is also being shifted to Poland and other areas. Let the union starve rather than attack directly like the strategy was played here and the results will come but not overnight.

[Drew Dowdell]

But is Opel 30% over capacity or should they just take the entire hit in the European market because you don't like them?

Opel being responsible for the development of 50% of GMNA's lineup is certainly NOT beside the point. It IS the point. Opel has developed excellent front wheel drive cars for GMNA... and excellent SMALL cars... something GMNA has NEVER been good at. You may not like the Sonic, Cruze, Verano, and Encore but they are nessesary parts of the GMNA lineup.

Opel is massively over capacity and suffers from the same debilitating legacy and labor problems that GMNA did pre-bankruptcy. Add-in the disaster that the EU is in general, and something clearly needs to be done. A much smaller Opel with an emphasis on FWD development has value - I realize this. However, as a manufacturing concern, and an export concern, they are nearly hopeless and geographically challenged.

Let's not forget that Opel has lost $14.5 billion since 1999.

You really can't wrap your mind around the elephant that is the GM accounting department can you?

[Camino LS6]

But is Opel 30% over capacity or should they just take the entire hit in the European market because you don't like them?

Opel being responsible for the development of 50% of GMNA's lineup is certainly NOT beside the point. It IS the point. Opel has developed excellent front wheel drive cars for GMNA... and excellent SMALL cars... something GMNA has NEVER been good at. You may not like the Sonic, Cruze, Verano, and Encore but they are nessesary parts of the GMNA lineup.

Opel is massively over capacity and suffers from the same debilitating legacy and labor problems that GMNA did pre-bankruptcy. Add-in the disaster that the EU is in general, and something clearly needs to be done. A much smaller Opel with an emphasis on FWD development has value - I realize this. However, as a manufacturing concern, and an export concern, they are nearly hopeless and geographically challenged.

Let's not forget that Opel has lost $14.5 billion since 1999.

You really can't wrap your mind around the elephant that is the GM accounting department can you?

I think you oversimplify by laying the fault there. All of the troubles with Opel I have laid out in this thread are quite real - do you deny them?

[Drew Dowdell]

Do you deny that GMNA, GMDAT, and GMAU have all benefitted from Opel R&D without paying much for it at all?

GM is already addressing the labor issues as Z-06 pointed out.

[SAmadei]

We get it. you want a coupe. A Riviera is coming.

Not really... as I like the Buick styling less and less and it all looks like a Opel. And being a Riv/Buick would seem to imply it would be FWD.

A large coupe would be nice, but how about a sedan that didn't require me to sit 6 inches behind the B-pillar. Or a large wagon. Something like the Challenger with a trunk or a Magnum/Flex that looks better.

Wait, wait, wait.

BTW, I couldn't care less about the new RWD platforms. Zeta was fine, Sigma was fine... B-bods were fine. I'm not buying a car based on what the dirty parts look like... I am buying based on the driveline configuration and the functionality of the body on top. Looking bad-ass would be a plus.

I very seriously doubt anything of Opel origin will ever grace my driveway on a regular basis.

[Camino LS6]

Do you deny that GMNA, GMDAT, and GMAU have all benefitted from Opel R&D without paying much for it at all?

GM is already addressing the labor issues as Z-06 pointed out.

No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post.

Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it.

Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require?

Opel needs to back away from production in a large way.

[Drew Dowdell]

We get it. you want a coupe. A Riviera is coming.

Not really... as I like the Buick styling less and less and it all looks like a Opel. And being a Riv/Buick would seem to imply it would be FWD.

A large coupe would be nice, but how about a sedan that didn't require me to sit 6 inches behind the B-pillar. Or a large wagon. Something like the Challenger with a trunk or a Magnum/Flex that looks better.

Wait, wait, wait.

BTW, I couldn't care less about the new RWD platforms. Zeta was fine, Sigma was fine... B-bods were fine. I'm not buying a car based on what the dirty parts look like... I am buying based on the driveline configuration and the functionality of the body on top. Looking bad-ass would be a plus.

I very seriously doubt anything of Opel origin will ever grace my driveway on a regular basis.

Zeta and Sigma were too heavy and not flexible enough.

The Alpha is highly scalable on either side of the ATS. The ATS also clocks in at 350lbs less than its primary competitor. Alpha platform is superior to the Zeta in just about every way in terms of production ability. Omega is coming to take the Zeta long wheelbase end of the lineup.

This is what we in the industry call "progress".

I wouldn't bet on a Riviera being FWD. I got pushback when I suggested it should be.

Do you deny that GMNA, GMDAT, and GMAU have all benefitted from Opel R&D without paying much for it at all?

GM is already addressing the labor issues as Z-06 pointed out.

No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post.

Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it.

Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require?

Opel needs to back away from production in a large way.

.....and... they.... are....

The Regal sold just fine being built in Russelheim

[Camino LS6]

We get it. you want a coupe. A Riviera is coming.

Not really... as I like the Buick styling less and less and it all looks like a Opel. And being a Riv/Buick would seem to imply it would be FWD.

A large coupe would be nice, but how about a sedan that didn't require me to sit 6 inches behind the B-pillar. Or a large wagon. Something like the Challenger with a trunk or a Magnum/Flex that looks better.

Wait, wait, wait.

BTW, I couldn't care less about the new RWD platforms. Zeta was fine, Sigma was fine... B-bods were fine. I'm not buying a car based on what the dirty parts look like... I am buying based on the driveline configuration and the functionality of the body on top. Looking bad-ass would be a plus.

I very seriously doubt anything of Opel origin will ever grace my driveway on a regular basis.

Zeta and Sigma were too heavy and not flexible enough.

The Alpha is highly scalable on either side of the ATS. The ATS also clocks in at 350lbs less than its primary competitor. Alpha platform is superior to the Zeta in just about every way in terms of production ability. Omega is coming to take the Zeta long wheelbase end of the lineup.

This is what we in the industry call "progress".

I wouldn't bet on a Riviera being FWD. I got pushback when I suggested it should be.

Do you deny that GMNA, GMDAT, and GMAU have all benefitted from Opel R&D without paying much for it at all?

GM is already addressing the labor issues as Z-06 pointed out.

No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post.

Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it.

Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require?

Opel needs to back away from production in a large way.

.....and... they.... are....

The Regal sold just fine being built in Russelheim

At a profit?

Doubtful.

What I'm saying is that building cars in Europe (for non-premium brands) and exporting them is folly.

An Opel as lean as Holden would be another matter, but I really doubt that GM can make that happen.

On the other side of the equation, I think that GM beancounters are going after Holden because it is small enough to make an easy target. Something they can put in their next performance review as saving X dollars. Meanwhile, gutting a most resilient and adaptive part of GM that has long lived by its wits and made successes out of the scraps GM as a whole has let them have. And Holden is in a geographic position to serve the emerging markets of the world that Opel simply isn't.

That, and a heavy dose of political hardball being played with the Aussie government must make this irresistable to the beancounters.

As for Zeta, it was actually quite flexible (but you wouldn't know it by the way GM flubbed its handling). OH, and development costs? A billion dollar expense shouldered completely by Holden. Zeta is probably the most glaring example of GM's mismanagement of its architectures ever in its history.

And how about Alpha? It's genesis is the Holden Torana.

[Drew Dowdell]

Again, I'm not advocating for the closing of either. I feel each according to his gifts. Opel does certain things very well. Holden does certain things very well.

GM should retain both.

I also believe that if Reuss has any pull at all, Holden will remain.

Zeta isn't as flexible down in size as it needs to be. It can go up easily, but not down without retaining too much weight.

That said a good lot of what was learned in Zeta have been reincarnated into Alpha using better materials.

[Camino LS6]

Again, I'm not advocating for the closing of either. I feel each according to his gifts. Opel does certain things very well. Holden does certain things very well.

GM should retain both.

I also believe that if Reuss has any pull at all, Holden will remain.

Zeta isn't as flexible down in size as it needs to be. It can go up easily, but not down without retaining too much weight.

That said a good lot of what was learned in Zeta have been reincarnated into Alpha using better materials.

I mostly agree with this, and endorse Alpha wholeheartedly.

In a perfect world, both Opel and Holden could push GM quality and innovation to new levels. But right now, they are in a serious mess.

Not sure of it would work for Opel, but Holden was really at its best when GM granted it greater autonomy. I'd rather like to see that again.

I'd also like to know how involved Holden has been on Alpha.

[Intrepidation]

What I'm saying is that building cars in Europe (for non-premium brands) and exporting them is folly.

Except if we go by that logic so is Holden. recall that the exchange rate between AU and the US made an unfavorable business case for importing the Commedore, Ute, Estate, etc.