Auto analyst slams GM to VA dealers

[evok]

And you still think that Wagoner has been doing well these years he's been at the helm?

He's been the one to turn things around.....yet......no dice.

No matter what the turd BM says about Rick, Rick is GMs last hope.

BTW - GM started to loose money in the 4th Q 2004, so let keep things in perspective.

[Camino LS6]

I have to agree with Evok here, it's Rick or ruin. Now or never.

[ponchoman49]

These Toyota driving yuppies need to shut there traps! There are so many new products coming out in the next 5 years it's not funny. Lets see what happens by then.

[The O.C.]

These Toyota driving yuppies need to shut there traps! There are so many new products coming out in the next 5 years it's not funny. Lets see what happens by then.

.....gee....and let's see where Toyota's products are at by THEN......

Same ole, same ole.....

[VenSeattle]

.....gee....and let's see where Toyota's products are at by THEN......

Same ole, same ole.....

Consider this:

1) GM's improvement over the past 5 years in quality, technology, refinement, etc has been greater than much of the foreign competition. The gap is pretty much closed. No, GM didn't leapfrog the competition but GM has gone from being a "Decade behind" to being "Average" in a matter of one generation of product.

2) GM's Sigma platform has been well received in the luxury market, and the prospects for the next CTS look great.

3) It doesn't appear that GM will lose the SUV/Truck battle that all the mags thought GM would.

4) No matter what happens with the FWD market, GM's mainstream divisions will have RWD/AWD coupes & sedans within 2-3 years that Toyota and Honda won't have. Nissan will only have the very expensive (in comparison) 350Z coupe/convertible. The proposed Supra won't be any cheaper.

5) GM's turn around in Europe is going very well and Asia is turning out great.

If GM can stay afloat, and keep up the same rate of progress, then GM will be one of the top manufacturers by 2010/2011

[Camino LS6]

Consider this:

1) GM's improvement over the past 5 years in quality, technology, refinement, etc has been greater than much of the foreign competition. The gap is pretty much closed. No, GM didn't leapfrog the competition but GM has gone from being a "Decade behind" to being "Average" in a matter of one generation of product.

2) GM's Sigma platform has been well received in the luxury market, and the prospects for the next CTS look great.

3) It doesn't appear that GM will lose the SUV/Truck battle that all the mags thought GM would.

4) No matter what happens with the FWD market, GM's mainstream divisions will have RWD/AWD coupes & sedans within 2-3 years that Toyota and Honda won't have. Nissan will only have the very expensive (in comparison) 350Z coupe/convertible. The proposed Supra won't be any cheaper.

5) GM's turn around in Europe is going very well and Asia is turning out great.

If GM can stay afloat, and keep up the same rate of progress, then GM will be one of the top manufacturers by 2010/2011

Agreed. And Toyota can take over as the stodgy,boring, behemoth hawking their unchanging vanilla.

[Guest buickman]

No matter what the turd BM says about Rick, Rick is GMs last hope.

BTW - GM started to loose money in the 4th Q 2004, so let keep things in perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you really believe Wagoner is GM's last hope, I have to question your perception. Although we have vehemently disagreed regarding Return to Greatness, I do conceed the validity of some of your positions. However, to state that "Red Ink rick" is the last hope truly shows the clouds in your thought process. Certainly General Motors is far too large and complex to assume that any one individual is crucial to it's survival and prosperity.

Buickman

[CaddyXLR-V]

If you really believe Wagoner is GM's last hope, I have to question your perception. Although we have vehemently disagreed regarding Return to Greatness, I do conceed the validity of some of your positions. However, to state that "Red Ink rick" is the last hope truly shows the clouds in your thought process. Certainly General Motors is far too large and complex to assume that any one individual is crucial to it's survival and prosperity.

Buickman

Meaning it's too late to bring someone else in to do the job, so it's on Rick's shoulders, I believe.

[evok]

If you really believe Wagoner is GM's last hope, I have to question your perception. Although we have vehemently disagreed regarding Return to Greatness, I do conceed the validity of some of your positions. However, to state that "Red Ink rick" is the last hope truly shows the clouds in your thought process. Certainly General Motors is far too large and complex to assume that any one individual is crucial to it's survival and prosperity.

Buickman

The Return to Greatness as I have pointed out hundreds of times is a smoke and mirrors con job. It will do nothing for GM. It is childish and does not address the root cause of GM's troubles. My support for Wagoner is based on him actually addressing what ails GM (in brief), the product and legacy cost. No one knowledgable or experienced in this business would claim it is anything otherwise. And I am not the only one with the knowledge or experience that has gone on record stating that. Instead of listening to us and evolving your ill attempt at developing a plan, you ignore the critique.

You deserved to meet with LaNeve and for LaNeve to hear you out. Why because I would have done the same thing if I were LaNeve being new on the job and listening to their sales force. Upon listening to what you had to say and reviewing your plan, I would not have signed you on as a consultant or put you on retainer. Why, because you or your plan do not address the real problems facing GM.

Even your plan does not address the marketing problems that are common to every single OEM.

Also at the time you were presenting your plan, GM at most only had one quarter of red ink under them, 4th Q04 and they still made money for the year. The real plan to Return to Greatness was already being devised by Rick and company.

Yet you continue with your misguided jihad against Wagoner which only reinforces evidence that your bruised ego can not accept the rejection of your plan as not being worth the paper it is written on.

That ultimately is what this is all about. Your crushed ego.

[Ravenfreak13]

On the Aura....Sadly, you cannot compare a base to a 3 trim upgrade asian car...the base accord has 2 speakers, manual mirrors, black door handles and garbage rims....the base altima has NO a/c, NO radio or speakers, manual mirrors, plus it only comes in black...all for over $17k...the only decently featured base is camry...so dont compare base aura to upscale midsizers.

And people are not informed in this country...I have come across people who didn't know that Plymouth ad Olds where dead...I have come across people who thought Buick and Merc were dead. People don't even know whats availible anymore.

And I see Buick sticking arund and GM should only be concerned about pontiac..while I like them...I see trouble ahead.

Thank You.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

LOL...

The analysts and media are pushing SO HARD for the death of Pontiac and Buick that now they're trying to coerce dealers into selling franchises?!?!?!

Wow!! Talk about agressive.... It's like saying "If you're not going to kill the division(s) for us GM, then we'll finish them ourselves."

And not only one divison, but 2!!!!!! The media is getting brave!!!! The asassination of Plymouth and Oldsmobile were underhanded and symbolic, but this is pretty much telling GM "Hey, we don't want you and we're going to finish you."

Oh, and what a clip of irony... (YEAH RIGHT) There is a 2006 Tundra ad RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PAGE!!!!!!

So pretty much, in reading the article, she is just trying to slam Wagoner.

Dennis Moore summed it up beautifully.... Just like ALL MEDIA, her findings and predictions are based more on her OPINIONS of factors NOT EFFECTING the situation than the facts.

Keller has been on the attack against GM for some time. In an article that appeared in T he Washington Post last June, she wrote: “One has to wonder why it has been so hard for GM to figure out what car buyers want and then give it to them. The company has not been able to leap ahead of the competition since the early 1980s.”

Because of people like you, bitch, who keep insisting that GM sucks EVENTHOUGH the new product is phenominal in most respects.

And just like with MOST media against GM these days, it provided NO fact to back up her argument.

(Buickman, is that you in a wig?!?!?!?!) Just kidding

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Beyond a GM fanatic's eye the new Saturn products are nothing spectacular.  The Sky is a niche vehicle with no profit.  The Aura offers little if anything over its competitors. The Outlook is the only one w/any selling potential.

Lots of new vehicles but IMO Saturn doesn't have the customer base.

This coming from a Toyota fanatics eye.....

(Not a fair assumption)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Give me a break! There has not been anything good to say about the company in 25 years.

Learn the business.

30 Years of losing market share awards the company accolades?

I disagree.... There has been GOOD along with the bad.

On an unrelated note: I just LOVE how everyone has already written the new Saturns off based on a spec sheet and 3 PR pictures.

That shows the ILL WILL that GM must conquer.

[bowtie_dude]

LOL...

The analysts and media are pushing SO HARD for the death of Pontiac and Buick that now they're trying to coerce dealers into selling franchises?!?!?!

Wow!! Talk about agressive.... It's like saying "If you're not going to kill the division(s) for us GM, then we'll finish them ourselves."

And not only one divison, but 2!!!!!! The media is getting brave!!!! The asassination of Plymouth and Oldsmobile were underhanded and symbolic, but this is pretty much telling GM "Hey, we don't want you and we're going to finish you."

Oh, and what a clip of irony... (YEAH RIGHT) There is a 2006 Tundra ad RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PAGE!!!!!!

So pretty much, in reading the article, she is just trying to slam Wagoner.

Dennis Moore summed it up beautifully.... Just like ALL MEDIA, her findings and predictions are based more on her OPINIONS of factors NOT EFFECTING the situation than the facts.

Because of people like you, bitch, who keep insisting that GM sucks EVENTHOUGH the new product is phenominal in most respects.

And just like with MOST media against GM these days, it provided NO fact to back up her argument.

(Buickman, is that you in a wig?!?!?!?!) Just kidding

The only proof she needs is the fact that GM has went from 60% marketshare to 25% in a matter of two decades, that GM hasn't had a #1 selling car in ANY segment in years, and that GM is now sliding deeper and deeper into the red.

And no, all that isn't because of the media bias, its the cause of the bias. You don't build &#036;h&#33;ty cars for 20 years and then expect everyone to jump back on board when your cars because also-rans instead of never-rans.

[Ravenfreak13]

I disagree.... There has been GOOD along with the bad.

On an unrelated note: I just LOVE how everyone has already written the new Saturns off based on a spec sheet and 3 PR pictures.

That shows the ILL WILL that GM must conquer.

exactly...You kinda need to sit in a car and drive it before making assumptions that its "mediocre"

PS-I saw my first 07 camry today...i thought it was a yaris...go ffiguer.

[turbo200]

On an unrelated note: I just LOVE how everyone has already written the new Saturns off based on a spec sheet and 3 PR pictures.

That shows the ILL WILL that GM must conquer.

design is the number one issue that separates the car companies these days. only GM has yet to catch up fully in the powertrain/interior feel areas...everyone else is at a pretty consistent level. Don't beleive me? Look at the sales charts, even Hyundai has figured out how to make a cohesively designed mid-size car. And thier big trump cards are low price and warranty that GM can't match. GM needs its own trump card, it will have to be design. Does the Aura scream hot design to you? Or is it fairly bland, or decently lovable? Think outside your enthusiast mindset and try to evaluate the design for real. If you were a dedicated import buyer, would the Aura's look be the look that sways you?

[turbo200]

exactly...You kinda need to sit in a car and drive it before making assumptions that its "mediocre"

PS-I saw my first 07 camry today...i thought it was a yaris...go ffiguer.

did you sit in the camry? that thing is solid, rich, upscale. even the base trim feels like a luxury car. Roomy, detailed, expressive, expensive.......all of these terms come to mind when you sit in the new Camry. That interior is a haven to spend time in. Think about the number of hours the average driver in LA spends in his car. Would you rather be in the interior I just described, or the one with less comfortable seating, less rich fabric, less pleasant ambience?

[Mr.Krinkle]

yeah, but its still camry.

if thats what you like then go for yours. i prefer some character and personality.

besides, is anyone ever really comfortable in traffic? no matter what you drive.

in fact the biggest a**holes are usually are in a lot nicer cars than a "camry"

[Ravenfreak13]

did you sit in the camry? that thing is solid, rich, upscale. even the base trim feels like a luxury car. Roomy, detailed, expressive, expensive.......all of these terms come to mind when you sit in the new Camry. That interior is a haven to spend time in. Think about the number of hours the average driver in LA spends in his car. Would you rather be in the interior I just described, or the one with less comfortable seating, less rich fabric, less pleasant ambience?

expressive? It looks like a creampuff....a puffy blob...its still butt ugly to me...but it is a decent car so its ok

[Guest buickman]

The Return to Greatness as I have pointed out hundreds of times is a smoke and mirrors con job.  It will do nothing for GM.  It is childish and does not address the root cause of GM's troubles.  My support for Wagoner is based on him actually addressing what ails GM (in brief), the product and legacy cost.  No one knowledgable or experienced in this business would claim it is anything otherwise.  And I am not the only one with the knowledge or experience that has gone on record stating that.  Instead of listening to us and evolving your ill attempt at developing a plan, you ignore the critique. 

You deserved to meet with LaNeve and for LaNeve to hear you out.  Why because I would have done the same thing if I were LaNeve being new on the job and listening to their sales force.  Upon listening to what you had to say and reviewing your plan, I would not have signed you on as a consultant or put you on retainer.  Why, because you or your plan do not address the real problems facing GM.

Even your plan does not address the marketing problems that are common to every single OEM.

Also at the time you were presenting your plan, GM at most only had one quarter of red ink under them, 4th Q04 and they still made money for the year.  The real plan to Return to Greatness was already being devised by Rick and company.

Yet you continue with your misguided jihad against Wagoner which only reinforces evidence that your bruised ego can not accept the rejection of your plan as not being worth the paper it is written on.

That ultimately is what this is all about.  Your crushed ego.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Frankly, your twenty points could not have made any more sense." Gitas Jamekis, John Crane Inc.

"Wow, Jim, this is amazing. Some of these ideas might just work, by God. And Mark LaNeve dismissed this? I have looked at the website, and there is a ton of interesting stuff in there." Dan Neil, Los Angeles Times

"Everything makes perfect sense in its appropriateness and simplicity." Ed Garsten, Detroit News

"So, the legend grows." Ed Lapham, Automotive News

"I think you hit the nail on the head." Ed Wright, GM Plant Manager, retired.

Guess we're all entitled to our opinions.

Buickman

[Croc]

"Frankly, your twenty points could not have made any more sense." Gitas Jamekis, John Crane Inc.

"Wow, Jim, this is amazing. Some of these ideas might just work, by God. And Mark LaNeve dismissed this? I have looked at the website, and there is a ton of interesting stuff in there." Dan Neil, Los Angeles Times

"Everything makes perfect sense in its appropriateness and simplicity." Ed Garsten, Detroit News

"So, the legend grows." Ed Lapham, Automotive News

"I think you hit the nail on the head." Ed Wright, GM Plant Manager, retired.

Guess we're all entitled to our opinions.

Buickman

Yes, because GM's product isn't inferior at all

[CaddyXLR-V]

"Frankly, your twenty points could not have made any more sense." Gitas Jamekis, John Crane Inc.

"Wow, Jim, this is amazing. Some of these ideas might just work, by God. And Mark LaNeve dismissed this? I have looked at the website, and there is a ton of interesting stuff in there." Dan Neil, Los Angeles Times

"Everything makes perfect sense in its appropriateness and simplicity." Ed Garsten, Detroit News

"So, the legend grows." Ed Lapham, Automotive News

"I think you hit the nail on the head." Ed Wright, GM Plant Manager, retired.

Guess we're all entitled to our opinions.

Buickman

Any CEOs in your list? CFOs? So because a few journalists believe you, your plan will work? Thats why they are journalists, not running the businesses themselves. It's one thing to say how a company should be run, or write about how a company should be run, and it's another thing to actually run the business.

[Brougham-Holiday]

Just a thought for those who think that GMs brands are safe:

There once was a division called the Oldsmobile division of General Motors and they built quality cars and trucks for 107 years. They remain one of the few companies to sell more than 1 million cars in one year and they had a strong customer base that was created by building cars with style, quality, and power.

GM spent all kinds of money to bring this brand back to life when it became Ill but they didnt do enough and even after a grand 100th ann. party and all new products the Oldsmobile division joined the likes of Plymouth and Hudson in the world of dead car companies.

Oldsmobile wasnt a bad car at all, the new models had quality and the right engines (4.0 V8 and 3.5 V6) they had good looks and a premium feel over their GM twins (Bravada v TrailBlazer) yet the image that had been drilled into peoples minds was that Oldsmobile (like all of GM) was nolonger a good car. There is no real way to change someones outlook when they have had a bad experiance (my parents had a 87 Grand Am LE coupe that came from the factory with a cracked engine block, the car was repaired under warr. but was full of electrical problems etc, today they drive a Honda). Everyone must remember that because we like GM it is hard to understand those who dont.

I own a 85 Cutlass Ciera Holiday coupe and a 93 Buick LeSabre Cutsom, I also had a 92 Bonneville SE and I think the world of these cars. But those who know what its like to spend $25,000 on a nightmare car are going to look at other brands. Every company has horror stories, Hondas that wont start, Fords with tranny problems but the American companies have allowed us to forget what an advacnced car feels like, one that is (as Oldsmobile said) "A step ahead".

If Buick or Pontiac go out of business ( and I am a fan of both) it isnt because of their current products, its because of their past, and killing Oldsmobile only made killing other brands easier because now people wont be shocked so much and it may seem like just another chapter in the recovery of GM.

So when you think of GM brands as brands that will last forever remember Oldsmobile, a brand given new life in 1996 and left for dead in 2001, huh thats 5 years, hmmm maybe it isnt impossible after all?

[Mr.Krinkle]

oh stop it you harbinger of doom.

what is this supposed to mean?? yes of course nothing is safe, thats a fact of life.

its what comes next thats important too.

olds was a great company, but lets face it for once and for all the name sucked for the world we live in now. im not saying eventually it would be ok, but thats long, long term time.

i like the cutlass and 442's, and such...but thats past.

nothings sacred, nothing matters, its business as usual. im not syaing there wasnt a better way to go about it or that it was right but its done now. lets hope they learned from this. its over, time to move one.

buickmans not going to bring that back.

no one will --so why bring it up?

his plan is shortsighted and his attitude sucks. it wont help nothing no how.

oldsmobile is gone but still lives in a way. as long as gm is still making cars and trucks the names will live on in a way. but, once the company is gone nothing will be left and they will all just be memories. chevy, pontiac, buick, and oldsmobile.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

"Frankly, your twenty points could not have made any more sense." Gitas Jamekis, John Crane Inc.

"Wow, Jim, this is amazing. Some of these ideas might just work, by God. And Mark LaNeve dismissed this? I have looked at the website, and there is a ton of interesting stuff in there." Dan Neil, Los Angeles Times

"Everything makes perfect sense in its appropriateness and simplicity." Ed Garsten, Detroit News

"So, the legend grows." Ed Lapham, Automotive News

"I think you hit the nail on the head." Ed Wright, GM Plant Manager, retired.

Guess we're all entitled to our opinions.

Buickman

These are people that report news, review vehicles, or in one case built product, not analyse the business or work in the business. They are unqualified as are you so their opinion lacks merit assuming their quotes are not taken out of context.

Keep grasping at straws and stroking your ego.

Katie Curic reads a telaprompter, she is not an analyst.

[Chicagoland]

"I own a 85 Cutlass Ciera Holiday coupe and a 93 Buick LeSabre Cutsom, I also had a 92 Bonneville SE and I think the world of these cars. But those who know what its like to spend $25,000 on..."

Hence why Olds died and GM shrank. To many living in the past, driving old car and not buying new ones.

[Brougham-Holiday]

oh stop it you harbinger of doom.

what is this supposed to mean??  yes of course nothing is safe, thats a fact of life.

its what comes next thats important too.

olds was a great company,  but  lets face it for once and for all the name sucked for the world we live in now.  im not saying eventually it would be ok,  but thats long, long term time. 

i like the cutlass and 442's, and such...but thats past.

nothings sacred, nothing matters, its business as usual.  im not syaing there wasnt a better way to go about it or that it was right but its done now.  lets hope they learned from this.  its over, time to move one.

oldsmobile is gone but still lives in a way.  as long as gm is still making cars and trucks the names will live on in a way.  but, once the company is gone nothing will be left and they will all just be memories.  chevy, pontiac, buick, and oldsmobile.

I dont think Oldsmobile sucked as a name, I think it sounds much more classy than Buick and since I own both Im not saying this just becuase I like Olds products but becuase I think its a better name.

As far as has GM learned anything-NO

I was at the NY auto show this past weekend and I saw the SAME BORING PRODUCTS as always, the new Civic looks much 'younger" than the Cobalt and the new Camry is much more elegant than a 2006 Impala. As far as living in the past, Honda has a reason to be proud of the heritage of the Civic name as does Toyota with the Camry.

And as far as GM living in the past and not getting beyond the 442 era have you seen their new commercial, its about their heritage. It shows things then and now and has been on tv here for 2 weeks.

Also what makes everyone so sure that Olds was the only one with the image of being old. Buick seems even older and Pontiac isnt something anyone of my friends are drving.

And as far as the problem being people like me driving older GM cars and not buying new ones

the Olds is a summer cruiser/car show car

the Pontiac was a winter beater

and the Buick is so nice that I went to the Buick display to get info on the 2006 LeSabre only to find out production has already ended.

MAYBE THE PROBLEM IS

Of the 3 GM cars Ive owned

Pontiac Bonneville

Buick LeSabre

Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera

NONE are still in production.

I guess they like to shoot owner loyalty in the foot because my friends with Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru products still can get a Camry/Civic/Altima/Legacy.

[Ravenfreak13]

true....They always stop the good models...

[balthazar]

bowtie_dude: >>"The only proof she needs is the fact that GM has went from 60% marketshare to 25%..."<<

GM's historical peak marketshare never hit 60%, tho it may have been 58%.

>>"...in a matter of two decades,..."<<

Nope- the high 50s percentile was in the late 1960s, which would be nearly 40-years ago, not 20. Do not forget that every new brand in the U.S. market reduces everyone else's marketshare automatically, regardless of GM's volume. It's an empty 'sliced-pie' statistic, heavily over-emphasized.

>>"...that GM hasn't had a #1 selling car in ANY segment in years..."<<

Full-size pick-ups; Silverado & Sierra have exceeded the F-150 numerous times in the last 20 years.

You cannot by rights dismiss charges of bias while spouting wildly innaccurate 'facts'.

>>"You don't build &#036;h&#33;ty cars for 20 years and then expect everyone to jump back on board when your cars because also-rans instead of never-rans."<<

If GM's marketshare fell because of "&#036;h&#33;ty cars for 20 years", pray tell us what was the cause of the OTHER prior 20 years of marketshare decline? Or did you mean to say that GM unilaterally built "&#036;h&#33;ty cars" for 40 years?

[Mr.Krinkle]

the name is classy and i personally dont have a problem with it but sh*t happens.

i do believe in general it wasnt the best at this time...and if i had to choose what went first that probably would be the one. from sheer superficiality.

i didnt even say oldsmoboile = old

but you did.

i just think it was a business decision that had to be made (sadly),

regardless, i doubt any other brands are going to be eliminated. buick, pontiac, and chevy all serve their purpose. they exist for a reason.

have you ever seen a civic or accord from a few generationsa ago? they are nothing at all what they are now. completely transformed. they could have called it anythinf they wanted but didnt and the name is in tact even though it has no resemblance of its names sake.

these american brands have heritage. in my opinion its better to put them down than to bastardize them. i wish they still made a "bonneville" but as long as pontiac is around a g8 or whatever they call it will be that car. and thats what i want.

they just have to get around to making it....which i believe they are now.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yes, thats absolutely correct...the more models that are introduced, the more the slice of the pie will decrease. essentiallhy its an arbitrary number.

thats just the way it goes, thankfully its a rather large sandbox and everyone can play.

[Brougham-Holiday]

have you ever seen a civic or accord from a few generationsa ago?  they are nothing at all what they are now.  completely transformed.  they could have called it anythinf they wanted but didnt and the name is in tact even though it has no resemblance of its names sake.

I actually drove a 93 Civic EX yesterday (and as I said my parents have a 2000 that I have driven) and it is easy to see how much they are the same. I dont have a problem with a 1986 Bonneville looking different from a 2006 model (if there were one) my problem is that by changing the name it is like saying that the cars heritage had little meaning. Not everyone knows that a fwd Impala is just the newest in a line of Lumina/Celebrity/Malibu models that have been around forever they just know that the Lumina/Celebrity dont exist anymore.

IMO the model name means as much as the brand that sells it, a Bonneville more important than a G8 (I hate those names, XLR,G6,etc whatas wrong with Eldorado and Lemans?)

Also changing names makes the brand seem weak and/or that the last model may have had problems that the company wants to forget.

You cant drill into the comsumer that the Bonneville is the ultimate Pontiac and then remove it after almost 50 years because another car (G8)is better after all.

[Guest buickman]

I actually drove a 93 Civic EX yesterday (and as I said my parents have a 2000 that I have driven) and it is easy to see how much they are the same. I dont have a problem with a 1986 Bonneville looking different from a 2006 model (if there were one) my problem is that by changing the name it is like saying that the cars heritage had little meaning. Not everyone knows that a fwd Impala is just the newest in a line of Lumina/Celebrity/Malibu models that have been around forever they just know that the Lumina/Celebrity dont exist anymore.

IMO the model name means as much as the brand that sells it, a Bonneville more important than a G8 (I hate those names, XLR,G6,etc whatas wrong with Eldorado and Lemans?)

Also changing names makes the brand seem weak and/or that the last model may have had problems that the company wants to forget.

You cant drill into the comsumer that the Bonneville is the ultimate Pontiac and then remove it after almost 50 years because another car (G8)is better after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can if your name is evok and you think marketing is irrelevant. We need only check Wagoner's horoscope to determine GM's direction.

Buickman

Edited April 19, 2006 by buickman

[Croc]

You can if your name is evok and you think marketing is irrelevant. We need only check Wagoner's horoscope to determine GM's direction.

Buickman

I do not know which is more shocking and frankly disturbing: your severe lack of knowledge regarding the way the idustry works, or that your reading comprehension ability (especially of evok's posts) could be bested by a first grader. [/simon cowell]

[Guest buickman]

I do not know which is more shocking and frankly disturbing: your severe lack of knowledge regarding the way the idustry works, or that your reading comprehension ability (especially of evok's posts) could be bested by a first grader. [/simon cowell]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comprehend these four letter words, OLDS and GMAC.

"Jim, just read your plan to return GM to Greatness. It all makes sense but how do we get the brass at GM to pay attention?" David Bruckman, Clay Matthews Auto Group

Buickman

Edited April 19, 2006 by buickman

[Mr.Krinkle]

"You cant drill into the comsumer that the Bonneville is the ultimate Pontiac and then remove it after almost 50 years because another car (G8)is better after all."

i think thats been the problem with rwd. aorund these so called snow states anyway. things just flip flop.

the bonneville is the ultimate pontiac but thats also because its the biggest.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Comprehend these four letter words, OLDS and GMAC.

"Jim, just read your plan to return GM to Greatness. It all makes sense but how do we get the brass at GM to pay attention?" David Bruckman, Clay Matthews Auto Group

Buickman

maybe the brass would notice if buickman climbed on a cross and nai...nevermind.

pardon the impending blasphemy. i did stop it in time though.

people think there are too many divisions so one got cut. i dont mean just any old one (unintended pun) but one nonetheless. its gone now.

according to you then gm cant do anything right and their biggest mistake wasnt hiring you so now its payback time? and everyone you run into has to hear about how great and about how bright you are and how foolish everyone is for not listening. time to let it go, man.

p.s. no one cares what your friend thinks.

[bowtie_dude]

"You cant drill into the comsumer that the Bonneville is the ultimate Pontiac and then remove it after almost 50 years because another car (G8)is better after all."

i think thats been the problem with rwd.  aorund these so called snow states anyway.  things just flip flop. 

the bonneville is the ultimate pontiac but thats also because its the biggest.

The Bonneville was also a culmination of everything wrong with GM in the past 20 years. From its bizarre and horrible interior to its dated and overdone styling to its ancient powertrain (sans the Northstar).

[Mr.Krinkle]

thats really a matter of opinion. until you drive one you realize evrything is just about where you need it. ive never known anyone to not like the ride in those cars.

ancient powertrain? many a modern powertrain has met its match. does that really mean anything to you anyway? really now, be honest

[bowtie_dude]

thats really a matter of opinion.  until you drive one you realize evrything is just about where you need it.  ive never known anyone to not like the ride in those cars. 

ancient powertrain?  many a modern powertrain has met its match.  does that really mean anything to you anyway?  really now, be honest

An interior can be ergonimical AND pleasing to the eye, doesn't have to be one or the other.

It doesn't matter to me personally, no. BUT, it matters to the media and, even more importantly, the general public. Its a perception thing. Just because it works, doesn't mean its good or competitive.

[evok]

Comprehend these four letter words, OLDS and GMAC.

"Jim, just read your plan to return GM to Greatness. It all makes sense but how do we get the brass at GM to pay attention?" David Bruckman, Clay Matthews Auto Group

Buickman

Not one of these "Quotes" explain why they agree with the plan. Without explaination it is meaningless.

These people that you have quoted still do not know the business of GM.

Even you do not sell vehicles to those without GMS discounts. That is why your plan continues to be out of touch.

But the fact remains, you are a slave to being blown off by RW and his team. Your ego is severly hurt and you are retaliating with this public intrafada. By persisting your immaturity only becomes more evident and does nothing to benefit GM or its stock price.

Even by quoting these people that show support for your plan, you continue to show that your ego has been cut down by RW and you are grasping at any outside reinforcement to piece together that part of you that was lost.

[Mr.Krinkle]

and you are retaliating with this public intrafada. 

nice use of the word. very nice.

[Mr.Krinkle]

oh, and the message, too

[Brougham-Holiday]

I LOVED my Bonneville it was a 92 SE dark green with bucket seats and alloy wheels. The style was perfect and the dash was so cool at night with the orange lights.

But The door panals could have been better and I thought that the body trim was of poor quality. I would however love to own a Bonneville again.

Size alone doesnt make one model the ultimate,

The Toronado was the ultimate Oldsmobile not the larger 98

The Riviera was the ultimate Buick not the Park Ave.

As far as engines go, I agree the 3.8 was/is a old design but its a good engine and it has a nice sound to it.

[prototype66]

There are many varying opinions about what will happen to GM in the future.  Auto analyst Maryann Keller has given her thoughts to a group of Virginia auto dealers.  Among other statements, she believs that Pontiac and Buick will "disappear within the next five years."  To view the entire article, click here.

WHAT A B*TCH, Sounds like she has a vandetta out on gm because she got a lemon back in the 80's. Let is go already ,ocd at its finest!

why is it whenever someone sees someone down they feel the need to kick them regardless of how many other people it hurts in the process

hows bout we let GM recover now *ss holes(media)

Edited April 19, 2006 by prototype66

[turbo200]

Comprehend these four letter words, OLDS and GMAC.

"Jim, just read your plan to return GM to Greatness. It all makes sense but how do we get the brass at GM to pay attention?" David Bruckman, Clay Matthews Auto Group

Buickman

this post is meaningless. you don't even have a point with olds; you have no idea of the marketing and manpower costs it takes to support one brand, let alone all the brands GM supports that all have such low sales. And the low sales are not because of wagoner, he inherited the poor product programs at GM now.

Why quote another friend? That's ridiculous, you think it'll convince us more or less of your ability. To me it's less, having to quote someone to prove yourself is childish. Just prove yourself. Start saying something credible, rather than trying to prove your credibility with us. I can pull a bunch of quotes out of my ass too. Start sharing and contributing things of real merit and you will gain respect.

[VenSeattle]

This will solve the 'marketing too many divisions' problem...

• Rebadge all of the GMC Trucks/SUVs as Buicks. They can keep the same names. 'Denali', 'Envoy', 'Yukon' blend well with B-U-I-C-K. It would also allow for name association for clients during the transition.
• Add a small/sporty $20k-$25k compact sedan w/ coupe & wagon variation (make LaCrosse strictly 3.6l powered)
• Add a Bengal roadster off of Kappa at $22k-$30k.
• Cue the Zeta sedan, coupe, & convertible
• Add 'Ultra' or 'Super' trim to all sedans, coupes, & convertibles

Bye-Bye GMC & Pontiac...

Hello Million+ volume Premium 'Professional Grade' Buick Division.

I'm just evil...

[The O.C.]

This will solve the 'marketing too many divisions' problem...

• Rebadge all of the GMC Trucks/SUVs as Buicks. They can keep the same names. 'Denali', 'Envoy', 'Yukon' blend well with B-U-I-C-K. It would also allow for name association for clients during the transition. 

• Add a small/sporty $20k-$25k compact sedan w/ coupe & wagon variation (make LaCrosse strictly 3.6l powered)

• Add a Bengal roadster off of Kappa at $22k-$30k.

• Cue the Zeta sedan, coupe, & convertible

• Add 'Ultra' or 'Super' trim to all sedans, coupes, & convertibles

Bye-Bye GMC & Pontiac...

Hello Million+ volume Premium 'Professional Grade' Buick Division.

I'm just evil...

I don't think you are necessarily that far off base......if at all.....

[Camino LS6]

This will solve the 'marketing too many divisions' problem...

• Rebadge all of the GMC Trucks/SUVs as Buicks. They can keep the same names. 'Denali', 'Envoy', 'Yukon' blend well with B-U-I-C-K. It would also allow for name association for clients during the transition. 

• Add a small/sporty $20k-$25k compact sedan w/ coupe & wagon variation (make LaCrosse strictly 3.6l powered)

• Add a Bengal roadster off of Kappa at $22k-$30k.

• Cue the Zeta sedan, coupe, & convertible

• Add 'Ultra' or 'Super' trim to all sedans, coupes, & convertibles

Bye-Bye GMC & Pontiac...

Hello Million+ volume Premium 'Professional Grade' Buick Division.

I'm just evil...

No need for this as Buick,Pontiac and GMC are already a single sales channel. It would just alienate existing customers.

[wildcat]

VenSeattle: My hero!

Besides, Lutz, in one comment a while back, said Buick would have "sporty coupes and trucks of all sizes." Remember? It seemed at the time as if the reporter mis-quoted him or he was dodging what Buick, specifically, would have.

Yeah, I know better. < sigh >

Edited April 20, 2006 by wildcat