Auto analyst slams GM to VA dealers

[VenSeattle]

Next-gen LaCrosse on EpsilonII in 2009, Enclave in late 2007, some kind of Zeta (likely Statesman based on that one article) has been confirmed.  Buick just got Lucerne, and Lucerne is sticking around for more than a generation.  What else do you need?

Pontiac has............a possible GTO/Zeta sedan.  That's it.

Everything I've seen has indicated the Lucerne may be a short run and replaced by the GLB RWD Statesman-based vehicle. I'm having a hard time believing Hamtramck will be making G-platform vehicles past 2010.

But yes, Malibu on EpsII in 2008... then LaCrosse on EpsII in 2009.

[Camino LS6]

What else does Buick need? Velite. And maybe,just maybe, a small entry-level RWD sedan/crossover.

[wildcat]

Petra:

Camino LS6: Velite (or call it Riviera, if you prefer) seems to be the popular opinion. And for me personally, a small entry-level crossover would be most welcome. But whatever vehicles they make, they have to be the best Buicks ever, have some pizzazz including better model names (Roadmaster=yes, Statesman=no, Invicta=yes, Lucerne=no, wildcat=oh yes!), etc.

Edited April 15, 2006 by wildcat

[Croc]

I was referring to the Lucerne nameplate, not the G-architecture. Also, the Buick Epsilon-II will not be until 2010.

[motownr]

well then GM should just close all of Buick's and Pontiac's doors right now.  Because SHE said so.

then we'll have complete and utter CRAP like Kia Amantis wasting space on showfloors across America, yet Buicks are not good enough to allow them to survive.

GM may very well be in a wind-down of BPG via simple dealer attrition...notice how Saturn nicely overlaps the whole channel?

Or how Chevy and Caddy nicely bracket it?

In regard to your comment on Kia: driven a Hyundai or Kia lately? We have both of them--they compare very favorably to the GM (and CG, frankly) products we sell. Yes, that includes Buick.

As well noted by someone: buy a domestic, get legacy costs. Buy an import, get product features. Sad, but noticably true.

Edited April 15, 2006 by motownr

[Guest buickman]

MEDICINE MAN

GENERAL WATCH NEWS

April 14, 2006

Friends,

My upcoming manuever in the campaign of GeneralWatch is the strengthening of Buick stores with the emphasis on stand alone points. Just got the list of dealers and have two gals calling each for owner's email. Forget the dealer council, we are developing our own group based on realistic, proven methods of success. To hell with corporate politics and back scratching, this is about survival. Give a call sometime to Joe Dieckhaus of Bristol PA (215-788-7833) and ask him what the Buickman did for him. His store was suffering. Family members were very resistant to change. They were doing some silly things. For one, their ad campaign was "At Dieckhaus we dont' sell cars, we help you find one". Pleasant and nice but sounded like they weren't even a car dealership. They are twenty minutes outside Philly. I proposed the slogan "From Dieckhaus to Your House" and recommended advertising FREE delivery to home or office. There were many other suggestions given in a half day's visit. I had some time available last year when I did the "East Coast Wagoner Roast" in Wilmington. Joe had emailed me for ideas, so I stopped in for a visit. He was impressed enough to come to the Annual Meeting and kind enough to treat me to lunch afterward at the Hotel duPont. Also did a Lincoln store in Lansing that was dying. Gave them "Thinkin' Lincoln" campaign designed around Honest Abe. Did Williamson in Flint. Assisted him in running for mayor (he won) and changed to "Patsy Lou Cares About You", went to #1 USA. Suski hired yours truly and saw 52% increase first year. Anyway, I am fully committed to rescuing Buick stores and preventing "Red Ink Rick" from killing the foundation stone of General Motors. Killing Oldsmobile is one thing, and selling GMAC is distasteful. Starve Buick dealers of product, then force them into merging with other franchises so the end is painless for the factory, and Mr Wagoner, you've bit into Billy's Baby and have stirred the wrath of...

Buickman

[Croc]

Please stay on topic.

[VenSeattle]

Next-gen LaCrosse on EpsilonII in 2009

Also, the Buick Epsilon-II will not be until 2010.

Okay... so which is it?

[Newbiewar]

Okay... so which is it? 

lol... epsilon II isnt as big as the lacrosse... it'll be a stretched epsilon?

i remember a while back it was rumored that the impala would be on the epsilon II stretched... but now the impala is on zeta... so...?

[Croc]

Sorry...2010. I re-checked my information for the second post. Remember, the W-bodies were originally conceived as midsized cars, though since the late 90s they've been in the awkward in-between size between midsize and fullsize. Buick needs a true midsize, and EpsilonII will provide its underpinnings.

Edited May 2, 2006 by Croc

[VenSeattle]

lol... epsilon II isnt as big as the lacrosse... it'll be a stretched epsilon?

i remember a while back it was rumored that the impala would be on the epsilon II stretched... but now the impala is on zeta... so...?

Malibu will be on Epsilon II. LaCrosse will be on Epsilon II also.

Epsilon II will be big enough.

[Newbiewar]

Malibu will be on Epsilon II. LaCrosse will be on Epsilon II also.

Epsilon II will be big enough.

but the current malibu is considerably smaller then the current lacrosse

[SimonDavid]

We'll see. Where are the new gen Zeta show cars for Buick and Pontiac?

I can't see GM abolishing Buick and Pontiac in the short term, there's no point, but I don't see them investing a huge amount in them long term either. I think they will be increasingly be seen as niche brands. Pontiac will survive basically on the G6 and Solstice and a Cobalt rebadge, Buick on the Enclave and a Holden Statesman.

It's becoming clear that Saturn is getting the focus. Saturn is safe because apart from the Outlook they will in future be Opels. If Opel is developing the Epsilon 2 cars you can garauntee theyll make the Saturn a success because that's their mainstay.

[Robert Hall]

I bet she drives a Toyota. 

Lexus RX according to her book 'The End of Detroit'

[Robert Hall]

but the current malibu is considerably smaller then the current lacrosse

If you trim down the excessive overhangs on the current LaCrosse (or any W-body), it would close to the Epsilon size, I think..and Epsilon II is going to be bigger than the current Epsilon..

[Robert Hall]

Saturn has one of the highest conquest rates of any GM brand.

Saturn's customer base is also the second most-loyal of any GM division (Buick being 1st) and among the most loyal in the industry.

Saturn consistantly outranks Ford, VW, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota in customer satisfaction.

kthxbye.

True...Saturn has had a semi-autonomous image separate from GM during most of it's life, and doesn't have same stigma of mediocrity in people's minds the way the old GM brands do..

[Robert Hall]

The Aura and the G6 are not "rebadges". A camry & an es300 are rebadges. If those can sell as obvious (even to non-enthusiast consumers) twins, the 'apparently' completely different Aura & G6 can too. The problem is not in those vehicles themselves.

IMO you are oversimplifying the issue.

If you say the Aura and G6 are not rebadges, but the Camry and ES are not, then you don't grasp what rebadges are...none of these examples are rebadges--they are platform/component sharing.

A rebadge is what GM did in the late '90s with the Malibu and Cutlass--exact same car with different badges and minor trim changes (grille, etc).

[enzl]

I think you'll see a group of products that share platforms and could jump to another division, if necessary, between Saturn, Pontiac, Buick & (to some extent) GMC.

The problem with the current LaCrosse is the W-bodies were engineered for 90's standards and now exist in a different safety climate (one where passenger space is sacrificed for 5 star ratings...) the actual space in a Malibu Maxx is about the same as the current LaCrosse.

GM (even with Lutz' prodding) has proven again with its current round of intros that its afraid to hit a home run (think LX's), so it'll stick with doubles and singles...the corporate culture has to change. I'm sick of waiting until next year for a Aura that looks like the (award winning) show car, or a Caddy with a world class interior or a six speed automatic for its FWD offerings...

GM has shown little capacity for change. I find it hard to believe that insiders are content with the status quo....when will we see evidence of a new attitude?

[The O.C.]

As for Aura itself, we haven't seen stats for Greenline or Redline trims. Saying it's 'barely competitive' or 'doesn't break new ground' without looking at the Hybrid or Performance versions means you're only looking at half the picture.

Green or Redline trims aren't going to change the fact that the AURA has an overall conservative design with an interior that is barely competitive in terms of design and fit-and-finish (that center stack....ugh) and a base (re....probably highest-volume) powertrain with pushrods and only 4 speeds....

AURA's nice and what the Malibu SHOULD have been when it was introduced.....but in 2006, greenline, redline, or not,....it is no segment buster, leader, or even challenger....

[The O.C.]

dude, you nitpich the sh$t out of every little thing.  i wouldnt take your word on a single blessed thing. 

what do you want from a car?

ill tell you what...nothing because it wont matter.

you do it with cars that are 3x more expensive too.  so what gives?

just one question for you--has there ever been a car you were happy with that didnt have some kind of imperfection that damned it?

One person's nitpick.....is another person's critical criticism.

I see you are new on here......well most of us on here (myself included) want GM to be the world leader in automotive product.

There's also many on here that recognize that in today's competitive environment....GM's recent and past mediocrity is what got it into the situation it's in today....and is what's keeping it from overcoming the massive consumer-perception-problem it's facing.

SO YES.....when it comes to looking at GM's prospects today, I do "nitpick." I just wish GM's executives, engineers, stylists, designers, and product planners "nitpicked" as much as I did......

And many others on here will tell you how I have definitely given GM props when they've deserved it. I'm a THRILLED 2006 C6 convertible owner....and don't have much on that car that I CAN "nitpick" about....I love the GMT-900s....and would consider a CTS seriously if I was in the market for that segment of car.

Other than that.....GM's prospects for me are achingly scarce......

[The O.C.]

Honestly, Pontiac would have a compelling lineup with a Zeta sedan/GTO coupe pair of vehicles, Solstice and a G6 lineup without an ass-nasty interior.  Frankly, GM should put the current AURA interior in the G6 because in my mind that is the kind of quality Pontiac should be offering (minus the wood of course...Pontiac should stick with brushed aluminum-like trim).  The AURA has an interior that is just barely competitive.  Give it some piano black trim, ditch the plood, and give it some two-tone dash treatments like the OUTLOOK has...then it will be truly competitive for its life cycle. 

Speaking of Pontiac-versus-Saturn interiors.......just look at the difference in Solstice and SKY.

I think the Solstice's interior feels remarkably cheap with all the thin, brittle, hollow, and hard plastics.....

However, you look at a SKY.....I'm sure SKY uses the same quality (or lack thereof) materials on the dash, door panels, etc.....BUT Saturn's overall EXECUTION of the interior is far superior with the integrated center stack, radio, and HVAC controls....piano black trim....even the gauge cluster.

A GREAT execution (as in SKY's case) can really make up for a certain amount of cost-cutting in materials or trim.

[The O.C.]

Next-gen LaCrosse on EpsilonII in 2009, Enclave in late 2007, some kind of Zeta (likely Statesman based on that one article) has been confirmed.  Buick just got Lucerne, and Lucerne is sticking around for more than a generation.  What else do you need?

Pontiac has............a possible GTO/Zeta sedan.  That's it.

Good point.....but not to ......

That stuff is needed YESTERDAY.

As we are seeing with AURA in particular, GM brings out the good stuff 2-4 years too late....

Will an EpsilonII LaCrosse in '09 (3 years down the road) be that much more competitive in the marketplace than the LaCrosse we have today?

A Zeta/Statesman is supposedly confirmed......but the new Statesman is out NOW....or will be out shortly.....HOW long will we have to wait for our Buick "Statesman?"

I'm no expert....I don't know how to overcome it.....but dammit this $h! has GOT to change and GM has got to get a handle on its product-development so they can bring a 2009 Camaro out in 2006......not in what will most likely be maybe 2010? 2011? (We all know how famous GM product programs are for getting delayed...)

[The O.C.]

What else does Buick need? Velite.  And maybe,just maybe, a small entry-level RWD sedan/crossover.

Okay.....maybe it's not a volume product....but concerning my above post about GM always bringing stuff out too late....

How do you think Buick would be benefiting from some long-overdue market excitment right now if we saw a Velite (NOT watered-down from the concept) introducted this spring as the new PRODUCTION Riviera Convertible?

Or....on another front.....why wasn't the Enclave at the auto shows a PRODUCTION version.....instead of a mildly-disguised concept of a production version that's still NOT going to be here until late this year?

[The O.C.]

Lexus RX according to her book 'The End of Detroit'

In one sense....can you really blame her? (for the Lexus RX...)

What does GM (or Ford or Chrysler for that matter) have at ALL that even remotely compares to the RX.....?

Oh....right......the Buick Enclave is COMING.....

Where was Enclave (or something similar) 10 years ago???????

[The O.C.]

The problem with the current LaCrosse is the W-bodies were engineered for 90's standards and now exist in a different safety climate (one where passenger space is sacrificed for 5 star ratings...) the actual space in a Malibu Maxx is about the same as the current LaCrosse.

GM (even with Lutz' prodding) has proven again with its current round of intros that its afraid to hit a home run (think LX's), so it'll stick with doubles and singles...the corporate culture has to change. I'm sick of waiting until next year for a Aura that looks like the (award winning) show car, or a Caddy with a world class interior or a six speed automatic for its FWD offerings...

GM has shown little capacity for change. I find it hard to believe that insiders are content with the status quo....when will we see evidence of a new attitude?

BINGO....! GREAT post......

About the W-body versus Epsilon.....I've always thought that for two people, a G6 has a more comfortable back seat than a LaCrosse or Impala.....there seems to be way more foot room and comparable, if not better, legroom.

As far as GM's lack of moxie and their unwillingness to change....I couldn't agree MORE....

[Robert Hall]

Green or Redline trims aren't going to change the fact that the AURA has an overall conservative design with an interior that is barely competitive in terms of design and fit-and-finish (that center stack....ugh) and a base (re....probably highest-volume) powertrain with pushrods and only 4 speeds....

AURA's nice and what the Malibu SHOULD have been when it was introduced.....but in 2006, greenline, redline, or not,....it is no segment buster, leader, or even challenger....

The base engine and transmission was the thing that I found the most frustrating about the Aura production details.... a pushrod V6 and 4spd auto would be competitive in the midsize sedan market, what 10 years ago or more?? Not now..

Edited April 15, 2006 by moltar

[Croc]

Good point.....but not to  ......

That stuff is needed YESTERDAY.

As we are seeing with AURA in particular, GM brings out the good stuff 2-4 years too late....

Will an EpsilonII LaCrosse in '09 (3 years down the road) be that much more competitive in the marketplace than the LaCrosse we have today?

A Zeta/Statesman is supposedly confirmed......but the new Statesman is out NOW....or will be out shortly.....HOW long will we have to wait for our Buick "Statesman?" 

I'm no expert....I don't know how to overcome it.....but dammit this $h! has GOT to change and GM has got to get a handle on its product-development so they can bring a 2009 Camaro out in 2006......not in what will most likely be maybe 2010?  2011?  (We all know how famous GM product programs are for getting delayed...)

AURA was revealed two years ago...that was retarded.

Enclave was revealed in January...production starts in November. Outlook was revealed last week. Production starts in November. Acadia starts in November, too, but we haven't even seen it! That's what GM should be doing with all their models.

GM did the Camaro concept NOW to prove to the doubters they are still coming back. In an ideal world, the Camaro would be concept revealed and released within 12-18 months. Not gonna happen.

[Croc]

Or....on another front.....why wasn't the Enclave at the auto shows a PRODUCTION version.....instead of a mildly-disguised concept of a production version that's still NOT going to be here until late this year?

Duh, competitive advantage.

What the hell do you want, reveal a vehicle and have it on sale tomorrow? Good lord, Enclave gets revealed in concept form and the production version is available within a year...that's good, and no better/worse than any other automaker.

You want my guess on when the production Enclave will debut? LAIAS in the fall/winter, going on sale the next day.

[Mr.Krinkle]

gm has obviously been playing catch-up. their pockets arent so deep that they coul afford all of their costs and have quality products.

this nail has been hit several times in this post alone.

so some jackass thinks its ok to save 32 cents per car adding up to millions of dollars saved. whos gonna notice? a lot of people (especially you o.c.)

all the wheeling and dealing and freeing up cash is a sign of a big move thats happening or about to happen. its a mass mobilization so to speak.

yes, too bad it was needed yesterday but somebody f*%&ked it up along the way. it couldnt go on like it was. maybe they tried for too long.

a "lets ride it out" mentality, but it turned bad in a hurry.

the old expression first things, first. labor disputes, union wages-the legacy costs. thats being handled or will be shortly. thats first. its dead money. that caddy cts shot was a teaser of whats to come if tings work out. and i think it will be applied more liberally, not just cadillac.--assuming its really not too late this time.

everything will be budgeted accordingly once the maximum overhead is at an acceptable level. its almost as if their hands have been tied for the last 20 years by the unions ropes. now they realize things need some changing and it needs to be more equitable this time. or else everyone is going to lose.

lets see if thats whats sinking in this time around.

o.c.-thanks for having thick skin.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Croc]

LaCrosse:

Body width 73.0

Cargo volume, cu. ft. 16.0

Curb weight, lbs. 3495

Front track width 61.7

Head room, front 39.4

Head room, rear 37.2

Hip room, front 55.3

Hip room, rear 54.6

Leg room, front 42.3

Leg room, rear 37.6

Overall height 57.4

Overall length 198.1

Rear track width 61.5

Shoulder room, front 57.2

Shoulder room, rear 57.0

Wheelbase 110.5

G6 Sedan:

Body width, inches 70.6

Cargo volume, cubic feet 14

Curb Weight, lbs. 3430

Front track width, inches 59.6

Head room, front, inches 39

Head room, rear, inches 36.5

Hip room, front, inches 52.7

Hip room, rear, inches 51.9

Leg room, front, inches 42.2

Leg room, rear, inches 37.6

Overall height, inches 57

Overall length, inches 189

Rear track width, inches 60

Shoulder room, front, inches 55.4

Shoulder room, rear, inches 55.4

Wheelbase, inches 112.3

Aura:

Body width in. 70.3

Cargo volume cu ft 15.7

Curb weight lbs. 3530

Front Track width in. 59.9

Headroom, Front in. 39.4

Headroom, Rear in. 37.4

Hip room, Front in. 53.0

Hip room, Rear in. 52.2

Legroom, Front in. 42.2

Legroom, Rear in. 37.6

Overall height in. 57.6

Overall length in. 190.0

Rear Track width in. 60.3

Shoulder room, Front in. 55.9

Shoulder room, Rear in. 54.0

Wheelbase in. 112.3

Edited April 15, 2006 by Croc

[Croc]

In comparing the two, the LaCrosse will lose .3 cu ft in cargo capacity in switching to Epsilon-I (which it isn't...it is going to Epsilon-II, a slightly larger platform), 2.7" of overall width, 2.1" front track width, 1.2" rear track width, maintain equal headroom, Lose ~2.5" hiproom, lose .1" front legroom but maintain rear legroom, lose 1.8" and 1.6" shoulder room, gain 2.3" in wheelbase, and lose a whopping 8.1" in length.

The two platforms are so similar in size, with the only significant losses being those of width, something addressed in the Epsilon-II architecture.

Also...the Epsilons don't get their rear dimensions by putting the seats inches off the floor...

[Satty]

Duh, competitive advantage.

What the hell do you want, reveal a vehicle and have it on sale tomorrow?  Good lord, Enclave gets revealed in concept form and the production version is available within a year...that's good, and no better/worse than any other automaker.

Other than the FJ Cruiser, most Toyotas are on sale within weeks of intro, I saw my first Camry on a lot less than a month after the official unveiling. Honda has gotten into GM mode lately, that is they release the "concept" version a year or so before the production version. I think thats retarded, it gives people no reason to buy the current model if the next one will be out in 18 months and will likely be a better vehicle, and it gives the competition a clue as to what direction you're taking the vehicle and may give them time to counter.

[Croc]

Hey, better than the "production concept" AURA two years before release!

[carstar]

well.... while we wait for new products in the comming years, Gm slowly losses it's market share

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

In comparing the two, the LaCrosse will lose .3 cu ft in cargo capacity in switching to Epsilon-I (which it isn't...it is going to Epsilon-II, a slightly larger platform), 2.7" of overall width, 2.1" front track width, 1.2" rear track width, maintain equal headroom, Lose ~2.5" hiproom, lose .1" front legroom but maintain rear legroom, lose 1.8" and 1.6" shoulder room, gain 2.3" in wheelbase, and lose a whopping 8.1" in length.

The two platforms are so similar in size, with the only significant losses being those of width, something addressed in the Epsilon-II architecture.

Also...the Epsilons don't get their rear dimensions by putting the seats inches off the floor...

So really is there anything to gain if that would be true? The LaCrosse is inefficient enough as it is-its overall length is 4" too long at least, but everything else needs a slight bump up, IMO. While the Aura's got nice interior specifications, they're nothing to write home about, especially given a wheelbase that's .the same size as a 2000-05 Buick LeSabre, but at least its not a waste like the G6. The next LaCrosse has to be far more luxurious than the Aura, and certainly the current model.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i think the biggest obstacle right now is marketing. people used to want a buick.

they used to want a pontiac. "theres a tiger in there"......"when better cars are..." ...and so on.

how do you convince younger buyers to buy a brand that in all likely hood their parents swore would never buy again. whats the comeback for that??

its not going to be wheel base and hip room. its a popularity contest for the most part. these cars arent lacking all that much, if anything.

the message needs to be loud and clear. how else will the consumer know? by what their parents tell them?? c'mon now.

oldsmobile had the right idea. its too bad no one ever stuck with a gameplan long enough to see it through. what if the plug never got pulled for the Grand National?

imagine all the kids growing up now that were able to relate to the pseudo legacy that car created in a tangible way ny being able to purchase one for themselves.

i do believe a car can sell itself, but its a lot more difficult when the chips have been stacked against it. and for what? time to move on.

[VenSeattle]

Sorry...2010.  I checked the spreadsheet for the second post.  Remember, the W-bodies were originally conceived as midsized cars, though since the late 90s they've been in the awkward in-between size between midsize and fullsize.  Buick needs a true midsize, and EpsilonII will provide its underpinnings.

In another topic, you mentioned the Aura would be replaced in 2010 on EpsII also.

So, you're saying that the LaCrosse and Aura will be replaced at the same time?

I've always been under the impression that the LaCrosse would last 4 years instead of 5. Isn't Oshawa supposed to end W-Platform production in 2008? If so, then a 2009 LaCrosse (CY or MY) on EpsII seems the most likely.

I may have missed a topic or two.

[The O.C.]

The base engine and transmission was the thing that I found the most frustrating about the Aura production details....  a pushrod V6 and 4spd auto would be competitive in the midsize sedan market, what 10 years ago or more?? Not now..

GM will promote the "standard horsepower compared to competitor's 4-cylinders" and also probably promote "competitive fuel economy compared to other V6s..." and all that stuff.

But it all gets back to what I keep HARPING on......

A vast majority of the consumers out there now have told you (GM) for years and years that they feel pushrods and 4-speed transmissions in this class of car are old technology, out-of-date, and inferior.

That's a perception that exists....no matter how smooth your 4-speed actually shifts, or how reliable your pushrod valvetrain is....or how torquey and punchy the 3.5L actually is.

You've GOT to address that by beginning to match and exceed the overwhelmingly dominent perception in the marketplace! GM doesn't have the hardcore PR punch or image in the marketplace to change perceptions that have been THAT strongly hard-wired into consumers' psyche.

Yet they continue to go against the grain.....when they HAVE to tools to offer better. Why NOT the base Ecotec powertrain? Hell, why not use the smaller 2.8L HF V6 as the base powertrain if you feel you have to have a "base" V6?

Why not engineer the 6-speed tranny to fit the 4cyl Ecotecs? If it's engineered already to mate to the 3.6L, it should be a no-brainer to fit the (almost indentical) 2.8L FF.....

People WILL pay a bit more for technology they perceive to be relevent, superior, and up-to-date.

[Croc]

In another topic, you mentioned the Aura would be replaced in 2010 on EpsII also.

So, you're saying that the LaCrosse and Aura will be replaced at the same time?

I've always been under the impression that the LaCrosse would last 4 years instead of 5. Isn't Oshawa supposed to end W-Platform production in 2008? If so, then a 2009 LaCrosse (CY or MY) on EpsII seems the most likely.

I may have missed a topic or two.

Yes, both are scheduled to be 2010 vehicles. Remember, this is model year and not CY.

[VenSeattle]

Yes, both are scheduled to be 2010 vehicles.  Remember, this is model year and not CY.

That's what I wanted to verify. So the LaCrosse will more than likely have an early and short MY2009 run in 2008 before production ends. The MY2010 LaCrosse will probably debut sometime in 2008 and go on sale early in 2009.

It looks like we'll be seeing the next-gen LaCrosse debut in 2 years or so at one of the autoshows (most likely Chicago). Sounds good to me.

[Chicagoland]

MaryAnn Keller's career is "GM watch dog", and has never had anything good to say about them.

[Croc]

Remember: a MY2010 vehicle can debut as early as January 2009.

[VenSeattle]

Remember: a MY2010 vehicle can debut as early as January 2009.

A MY2010 vehicle can debut anytime... it just can't go on sale anytime before January 1st 2009. So I suspect the 2010 will debut in 2008 and go on sale in early 2009.

[Croc]

A MY2010 vehicle can debut anytime... it just can't go on sale anytime before January 1st 2009. So I suspect the 2010 will debut in 2008 and go on sale in early 2009.

That's what I meant...but whatever, at least I didn't "shelve" it.

[VenSeattle]

That's what I meant...but whatever, at least I didn't "shelve" it.

I knew what you meant... but I just stated what I did for those who might have not known.

[wildcat]

So when exactly is the LaCrosse Super coming out? It won't have a very long run, right? Or will there be a LaCrosse Super version of the NG LaCrosse, too?

[evok]

MaryAnn Keller's career is "GM watch dog", and has never had anything good to say about them.

Give me a break! There has not been anything good to say about the company in 25 years.

Learn the business.

30 Years of losing market share awards the company accolades?

Edited April 17, 2006 by evok

[VenSeattle]

So when exactly is the LaCrosse Super coming out?  It won't have a very long run, right?  Or will there be a LaCrosse Super version of the NG LaCrosse, too?

My theory, the Super w/V8 will only serve as a 'shot in the arm' for the current LaCrosse as competition becomes overwhelming. The trim may stay around for the NG LaCrosse (as reported earlier that Buick is considering "Reserve" and "Super" trim levels), but it will probably use a high-performance version of the 3.6l V6. I doubt EPSII is being engineered to accommodate any V8.

[Guest Josh]

Give me a break! There has not been anything good to say about the company in 25 years.

Learn the business.

30 Years of losing market share awards the company accolades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you still think that Wagoner has been doing well these years he's been at the helm?

He's been the one to turn things around.....yet......no dice.

[bowtie_dude]

What platform is the Aura on now? Epsilon? Is the current Aura intended to be a stopgap to a truely competitive GM midsize sedan in three years?