RENAULT-NISSAN BOSS PREDICTS RECOVERY FOR GM

[Mr.Krinkle]

whoaa...keep your pants on.

doesnt that just make it low volume?

edit: niche would indicate to me- 21-24 years old, less than 2.3 children, sagitarius,

Edited April 18, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[bowtie_dude]

whoaa...keep your pants on.

doesnt that just make it low volume?

A niche car is synonymous with low-volume, they go hand-in-hand.

[Mr.Krinkle]

maybe i just dont like the word then...no biggy.

[bowtie_dude]

In case you did not read my post carefully I will spell it out again!

Saturn Aura - Projected sales 70 - 100k

Nissan Altima - 225 - 250k

Toyota Camry - 400k

Honda Accord - 400k

The Saturn is a niche vehicle for the segment.

The question is, though, can GM have a SINGLE #1 selling sedan when its mid-size cars are broken up between 3 divisions? Doubtful.

I can see their approach working. Sell Aura to premium Camry and Accord shoppers, sell the G6 to Nissan shoppers and sell the Malibu to lower-trim 4-banger Camcord shoppers. Instead of having one do-all be-all car, ala the Camry, have 3 that fit specific needs, but together accomplish a total volume go.

I dunno, maybe I don't have the insight, but it makes sense to me. IF the G6 and Malibu were actually competitive that is.

Problem though, as it stands the 3 have too much overlap in price and powertrain. Give the Malibu the 2.2 Ecotec and 2.8l DOHC V6 (base CTS engine). Give the G6 the 2.4 and 3.6 and the Aura the 2.8 and 3.6. You'd essentially have 3 cars with specific needs for specific buyers doing the same thing that the Camry does with its, what? 6 trim levels?

[evok]

The question is, though, can GM have a SINGLE #1 selling sedan when its mid-size cars are broken up between 3 divisions?  Doubtful.

I can see their approach working.  Sell Aura to premium Camry and Accord shoppers, sell the G6 to Nissan shoppers and sell the Malibu to lower-trim 4-banger Camcord shoppers.  Instead of having one do-all be-all car, ala the Camry, have 3 that fit specific needs, but together accomplish a total volume go.

I dunno, maybe I don't have the insight, but it makes sense to me.  IF the G6 and Malibu were actually competitive that is.

Problem though, as it stands the 3 have too much overlap in price and powertrain.  Give the Malibu the 2.2 Ecotec and 2.8l DOHC V6 (base CTS engine).  Give the G6 the 2.4 and 3.6 and the Aura the 2.8 and 3.6.  You'd essentially have 3 cars with specific needs for specific buyers doing the same thing that the Camry does with its, what?  6 trim levels?

This has been an ongoing struggle at GM since the GM-10s were launched in 1988.

Why the hell have 4+ divisions (Saturn, Pontiac, Chevy, Buick, Olds, Saab) sell midsized product that are going after small slices of the mid sized segment when the main competitions can do it with one vehicle.

The sad truth is, the G6, Malibu, Impala are not going to appeal to the foreign competition. The Aura could have been a good attempt but Saturn is a brand in transition and not a premium brand. That will take time and consistency of product to pull off. GM still would have been better off rebadging the Vectra even with its premium markup and selling that as a Aura instead of spending the money on yet another midsized entry. They would have hit the sales volume of the Aura without the development cost, in theory. The L series did just that.

Now add to the fact the Ion will not be replaced on schedule and Saturn will have to run without that volume until a replacement arrives. That is lost volume.

The multi brand mid sized strategy could have worked in 1988 when Pontiac and Buick still had a loyal following but almost 20 years later they are damages and have lost their appeal to mainstream shoppers. In order to pull that off today, design and execution must be polarizing. Much to Chrysler's credit with the LX cars, styling sells. The Malibu, Aura, G6 are just another round of placeholders in a segment that is lead by the Japanese and being erroded by solid entryies by the Koreans. The Sonata outsells the G6.

Edited April 18, 2006 by evok

[Camino LS6]

Hmm, I think the Aura will do just fine. It certainly is the best Saturn sedan to date and finding serious actual quality differences in this segment requires splitting hairs. Perception, of course, is another matter and will take time. However, GM has certainly changed my mind about Saturn which is no mean feat. I always saw Saturn as an extreme error from the start, I now see it as a viable and rising division of GM. I think we will see a large bump in Saturn sales over the next few years.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

NEW YORK, April 12, 2006 (AFP) - Celebrated auto boss Carlos Ghosn, who knows something about resurrecting dying car companies, predicted Wednesday that troubled US giants General Motors and Ford would recover and prosper.

Aww, how cute!

The Brazilian-born Frenchman, who rescued Japan's Nissan Motor from bankruptcy, dismissed speculation of GM's imminent demise as the world's biggest carmaker struggles to reverse huge losses and falling US sales.

    "I don't think so," he told the CNBC network from the New York International Automobile Show when asked if GM could go bankrupt.

    "I think there is a lot of potential and the car manufacturer can come (back) from any situation, as long as it establishes a good plan and understands the situation in which it is," he said.

    "And frankly, I don't believe it and I said it many times, you know, Ford and GM have a lot of potential. And when they put it into action, we have to be very careful," Ghosn said.

Yep... If they'd just put it ALL into action... (THis is his "Beware" statement to the media. He knows that eventhough the media has whipped GM and Ford that they can still come back to a certain extent)

Ghosn became Japan's pioneering foreign manager when he turned Nissan around from near-death in 1999 to being the world's most profitable car manufacturer in 2003.

    A year ago, Ghosn took the post of chief executive at French automaker Renault, which owns a 44.4 percent stake in Nissan, while remaining president and chief executive of Nissan.

Funny that this article didn't make maintream news.

This is a cute story, but complete nd total PR bull$h!. We all know what will happen; the future is bright for Nissan and Co. and the sun is setting on Detroit.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Look at the Aura, a brand new car that is a gerneration behind the competition in styling.

This must be the new media/analyst generic line for the Aura...

Everything else is as good, if not better, so they pick a SUBJECTIVE idea and start training people on it being inferior.

WHY? I've said it once and I'll say it again DOMESTICS WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS IMPORTS IN THE EYES OF THOSE WHO SWAY OPINIONS... AND AS LONG AS THESE PEOPLE CLING TO AND PROMOTE THAT BIAS IT ONLY GETS STRONGER AND GM AND FORD WILL NEVER SUCCEED AGAIN.

The AURA's a joke compared to the new Camry......in any way you compare it.

Sorry....but the truth hurts, GM.....

LMFAO!!!!

IN what way?!?!? Can you provide facts to back that up???? Have you driven the car????

LOL (These are the arguments that you import humpers throw at me when I fling blatant opinions and insults)

Guess not, oh well, guess that makes you post a JOKE compared to reality then right?

It's because of people like this... PEOPLE that supposedly KNOW what they're talking about, that are SO brainwashed by Toyota that GM will not recover.

People like these could be given a gold car made by GM and they'd still complain about the goddamned luster of the gold when compared to the soft touch dash of a Camry... It's sick and it's getting funnier by the day. ESPECIALLY when GM sells every Aura it can produce.

[bowtie_dude]

This has been an ongoing struggle at GM since the GM-10s were launched in 1988.

Why the hell have 4+ divisions (Saturn, Pontiac, Chevy, Buick, Olds, Saab) sell midsized product that are going after small slices of the mid sized segment when the main competitions can do it with one vehicle.

The sad truth is, the G6, Malibu, Impala are not going to appeal to the foreign competition.  The Aura could have been a good attempt but Saturn is a brand in transition and not a premium brand.  That will take time and consistency of product to pull off.  GM still would have been better off rebadging the Vectra even with its premium markup and selling that as a Aura instead of spending the money on yet another midsized entry.  They would have hit the sales volume of the Aura without the development cost, in theory.  The L series did just that.

Now add to the fact the Ion will not be replaced on schedule and Saturn will have to run without that volume until a replacement arrives.  That is lost volume.

The multi brand mid sized strategy could have worked in 1988 when Pontiac and Buick still had a loyal following but almost 20 years later they are damages and have lost their appeal to mainstream shoppers.  In order to pull that off today, design and execution must be polarizing.  Much to Chrysler's credit with the LX cars, styling sells.  The Malibu, Aura, G6 are just another round of placeholders in a segment that is lead by the Japanese and being erroded by solid entryies by the Koreans.  The Sonata outsells the G6.

I don't see any other way, at least in the short term, for GM to manage it. Killing off corporate alternatives to the Malibu won't make more people but the Chevy, just send them to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Ford.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Despite the occassional lapse (and I have never stated Toyota built a perfect product), Toyota consistently puts out good stuff...not great, not world class in every respect, but well built, solid, reliable transport...exactly what the general public wants...and even if you don't believe me, or the internet sites or magazines or research companies - ask someone who got burned by GM or DCX or Ford or VW, et al...they'll tell you

NEWS FLASH!!!!!

EVERY car company puts out reliable transport at this point and EVERY consumer expects it, EVEN CONSUMER REPORTS admits that!

EVERY company has "BURNED" consumers, not just everyone BUT the japs.

How about crawling back under the rock you came from...you want to argue that GM is a more ethical corporation than Toyota? Please. GM, from the lead in gasoline (they fought removing lead from gas for 50 years...ever see a child with an excess of lead in their system...well, actually, you may be a victim yourself, given the brain development problems it causes), GM fought seatbelts, GM killed Tucker, GM owns multiple superfund cleanup sites...so when you attack Toyota for hiding its sludging problems, keep in mind that its contemporary competition have their own skeletons (Henry Ford was a rabid Nazi, Benz used slave labor, and the list goes on....)

LOL... Give me a break.... Is THIS why you continue to think "GM should PAY for it's sins"?!?!?!?! Are you one of those self loathing americans????

Henry Ford was NOT a Nazi... Simple history can teach you that. He had involvement with Hitler BECAUSE of the manufacturing advancements Hitler fostered (And yes, HITLER WAS GOOD AT WHAT HE DID---yet that doesn't make him ethical or right)

On a related note: The arrogance of the 'insiders' on this site is getting very tiring. You come here and condescend to enthusiasts, much like the media does to domestic companies (GEEE, a coincidence?) and then blatantly insult us when we DON'T BEND TO THE 'TOYOTA NOW RULES THE WORLD' status quo after being LIFETIME GM/domestic fans. You see, we're no so quick to SELL OUT like your organizations. So you're an insider/analyst/dealer/media/whatever.... Big F-in' deal!!!!! Your opinions SUCK just as bad as mine and everyone elses here; the only difference being that people actually pay you for them.

[evok]

I don't see any other way, at least in the short term, for GM to manage it.  Killing off corporate alternatives to the Malibu won't make more people but the Chevy, just send them to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Ford.

The vehicles are a generation behind the competition. It would be smart for them to pick a target and design for the target. In ways that is what they do but instead of picking an a 3 year old Altima or Camry as their design target, they need to anticipate the design direction of the next generation Altima or Camry. They benchmark the current vehicles instead of predicting the next. It is an "art" and not a science. GM needs to learn that art to stay ahead of the curve. That is the only way for a company to gain momentum. Nissan is a perfect example of how to gain that forward energy and break out from the rest of the pact.

Another case in point is the G6 interior. Honda already had the update to the Accord that is leaps and bounds above the G6 when that came to market. The G6 interior and even exterior would have been great in 2000.

Because of GM's brand structure they have to offer midsized vehicles in their fleet. Until divisions go away that is not an option. But you don't beat competition by going after their current product.

Here is an exercise for Lutz and Design staff. When you style a vehicle and pick its target, have one team style what they think the next generation competitior will be. And try to top that when you design the GM vehicle. It is not to hard to do particularly the evolutionary process the competitors take. That way you stay ahead of the curve.

That way Pontiac, Buick etc can target different vehicles and buyers and reduce the over lap in competing agaist each other.

Edited April 18, 2006 by evok

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The problem with the Aura is that it is designed to be a niche vehicle with a constrained volume between 70 - 100k vehicles.  So why not push the envelope on interior and exterior styling since it is only a niche vehicle.  Or move the bar up on sophistication.  The Aura does not even offer a level of perceived sophistication when compared to the competition on refinement or asthetics (interior/exterior).

And you can tell this from the press shots?!?!?!

It looks every bit as refined as a Camry and Accord to me.

The Aura with the 3.6 is a hot car and the Redline will be nice but the problem is that they have limited appeal, in a new market, a questionable brand with no history in the segment

Tell that to the Koreans...

When compared to the New Camry and Altima, the Aura is just another product in an already crowded segment.  It does not stand out as anything special to the average person that buys on perception.

While I think it is every bit as good of a car as these two, I DO AGREE on this point.

Let the future prove me wrong but I do not see the Aura being for Saturn like the 2002 Altima jump started Nissan.  The 2002 Altima increased in sales from 100k to over 200k last year.

How much of that was fleet?

I certainly WASN'T impressed with the Altima. Of course, I'm not hypnotized by the japanese "aura" (pun intended) that apparently comes with a cheap chrome badge.

The new Camry is a solid hit and will hold what Toyota already has.

Lets get real here... Toyota could've put a "T" on a four year old Malibu and had a solid hit.... The badge sells itself and the minions are loyal regardless if the product is trash, the media has made SURE of that.

The Aura is typical GM two step forward, one step back approach to product planning.

How so??????

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is so depressing...

That's the point!!! These people want to ensure that GM fails, and killing morale is an essential part of defeating ANY organization.

In case you did not read my post carefully I will spell it out again!

Saturn Aura - Projected sales 70 - 100k

Nissan Altima - 225 - 250k

Toyota Camry - 400k

Honda Accord - 400k

The Saturn is a niche vehicle for the segment.

So?!?!? maybe GM is limiting production for a number of reasons... Demand, MAYBE, capacity, MAYBE, resale, MAYBE.... Who knows.

Not to mention none of those japanese companies have 2 other cars in the segment either.

[bowtie_dude]

The vehicles are a generation behind the competition.  It would be smart for them to pick a target and design for the target.  In ways that is what they do but instead of picking an a 3 year old Altima or Camry as their design target, they need to anticipate the design direction of the next generation Altima or Camry.  They benchmark the current vehicles instead of predicting the next.  It is an "art" and not a science.  GM needs to learn that art to stay ahead of the curve.  That is the only way for a company to gain momentum.  Nissan is a perfect example of how to gain that forward energy and break out from the rest of the pact.

Another case in point is the G6 interior.  Honda already had the update to the Accord that is leaps and bounds above the G6 when that came to market.  The G6 interior and even exterior would have been great in 2000.

Because of GM's brand structure they have to offer midsized vehicles in their fleet.  Until divisions go away that is not an option.  But you don't beat competition by going after their current product.

Here is an exercise for Lutz and Design staff.  When you style a vehicle and pick its target, have one team style what they think the next generation competitior will be.  And try to top that when you design the GM vehicle.  It is not to hard to do particularly the evolutionary process the competitors take.  That way you stay ahead of the curve.

That way Pontiac, Buick etc can target different vehicles and buyers and reduce the over lap in competing agaist each other.

I totally agree with you on that point. GM always puts out a car that competes well and bests the CURRENT competition, but when the competition redoes a vehicle, GM is back in the doghouse for almost an entire generation.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Remember that GMs true retail market share in the US is in the high teens, app. 18%. And those sales are heavily supposrted by GM discounts. ie Retirees and employees are buying the product, not real customer demand. There is a lot of room to define different.

I don't think it's that bleak.

[evok]

I totally agree with you on that point.  GM always puts out a car that competes well and bests the CURRENT competition, but when the competition redoes a vehicle, GM is back in the doghouse for almost an entire generation.

Yes - that is exactly my point.

On the car side of the business they are always reacting. That was why I proposed my design bake off with the future and not current target vehicle as the focal point. It would make for a very interesting exercise if nothing else.

It scares me to think that I will have to look at the current LaCrosse for another 3+ years. It was dated and old when it arrived. Same goes with the rest of the current new fleet. The truck/suv market is a different beast all together.

Edited April 18, 2006 by evok

[wildcat]

But hasn't GM, more or less, acknowledged that LaCrosse needs something to compete, so they're releasing the LaCrosse Super? Doesn't that say they realize it's not competitive as-is?

[enzl]

Henry Ford was NOT a Nazi... Simple history can teach you that. He had involvement with Hitler BECAUSE of the manufacturing advancements Hitler fostered (And yes, HITLER WAS GOOD AT WHAT HE DID---yet that doesn't make him ethical or right)

On a related note: The arrogance of the 'insiders' on this site is getting very tiring. You come here and condescend to enthusiasts, much like the media does to domestic companies (GEEE, a coincidence?) and then blatantly insult us when we DON'T BEND TO THE 'TOYOTA NOW RULES THE WORLD' status quo after being LIFETIME GM/domestic fans. You see, we're no so quick to SELL OUT like your organizations. So you're an insider/analyst/dealer/media/whatever.... Big F-in' deal!!!!! Your opinions SUCK just as bad as mine and everyone elses here; the only difference being that people actually pay you for them.

I was going to put away the personal stuff (and BTW, my tirade you quote was mostly directed at an individual who attacked me - unprovoked, I might add), but since you've decided to, in essence, defend Henry Ford as not being a Nazi sympathizer---well, suffice it to say you need to read up on your history...He has been quoted as an anti-semite repeatedly- & financed/published pro-Nazi newspapers in this country until we declared war on Germany.

And, to add insult to injury, you qualify your ignorant statements by stating that Hitler was good at what he did...what exactly was that??? Putting innocent people to death, ravaging the entire European continent with a horrific war? Oh, right, the Germans were good at manufacturing...that's what Ford was interested in---the anti-semetism was just a natural offshoot of his love for Hitler?

I have a question...where are the admins when this guy spouts this drivel....you want to be mad at me cause of my opinions FOG, at least let me give you a reason...you're a moron, plain and simple....when you make these idiotic statements, you completely diminish all credibility you might have and make yourself and those that agree with you look like fools....

For the last time, since apparently only you haven't gotten the message: I'm NOT an insider and I have NO joy stating my opinions, just alot more basis in reality when I state them. If you don't like my attitude, go elsewhere or ignore my posts....you know what Hitler did to people when he didn't like their opinions (well, based on your rant, you probably don't.)

You wanna debate like a man, go ahead, otherwise, ignore my posts and move on with your life. I not only know more about the industry than you, it also appears I know a little more about life as well. Grow up.

Edited April 18, 2006 by enzl

[evok]

I have a question...where are the admins when this guy spouts this drivel....you want to be mad at me cause of my opinions FOG, at least let me give you a reason...you're a moron, plain and simple....when you make these idiotic statements, you completely diminish all credibility you might have and make yourself and those that agree with you look like fools....

You wanna debate like a man, go ahead, otherwise, ignore my posts and move on with your life. I not only know more about the industry than you, it also appears I know a little more about life as well. Grow up.

The neophyte is an admin. Ah there is the rub.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...ts&CODE=leaders

Edited April 18, 2006 by evok

[enzl]

The neophyte is an admin.  Ah there is the rub.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...ts&CODE=leaders

Thanks. At least now I know. Should've guessed based on the lack of response to my flagging the post. Unbelievable.

[Intrepidation]

pie

[turbo200]

The problem with the Aura is that it is designed to be a niche vehicle with a constrained volume between 70 - 100k vehicles.  So why not push the envelope on interior and exterior styling since it is only a niche vehicle.  Or move the bar up on sophistication.  The Aura does not even offer a level of perceived sophistication when compared to the competition on refinement or asthetics (interior/exterior).

As you have pointed out in the past, a significant majority of Camry, Altima and Accords are 4 cylinders.  Yet GM believes they are offering the 3.5 in the Aura as a horsepower advantage to the competition but sacrifices the OHC refinement. That is old school thinking as is the the wood grain interior trim.

The Aura with the 3.6 is a hot car and the Redline will be nice but the problem is that they have limited appeal, in a new market, a questionable brand with no history in the segment - how much is that going to add to the bottom line.  Maybe 20k vehicles at most.  Plus at a price point of app. $30k for a Saturn is tough to swallow in this market.

When compared to the New Camry and Altima, the Aura is just another product in an already crowded segment.  It does not stand out as anything special to the average person that buys on perception.

Let the future prove me wrong but I do not see the Aura being for Saturn like the 2002 Altima jump started Nissan.  The 2002 Altima increased in sales from 100k to over 200k last year.

The new Camry is a solid hit and will hold what Toyota already has.

The Aura is typical GM two step forward, one step back approach to product planning.

GM needs buyers on the left and right coasts, will the Aura succeed in that mission?

unfortunately, your assessment rings all to true. in terms of exterior and interior refinement, the Aura merely meets the competitors where they were in 2002. The competition has since learned and increased the levels of sophistication, and their design is truly noteworthy and appealing. Things that were sacrificed on the production Aura for the sake of cheaper stamping or whatever have left it undistinguishable, whereas the concept had real presence thanks to a great face, and a killer body.

I had high hopes for the Aura, and I still believe it will meet thier target volume [a paltry 100k units, drop of a dime in that segment], but I think it may come at the expense of different GM products rather than Honda or Toyota converts. The Saturn just lacks the outright intensity and lustiness to capture minds.

The new Camry has amazing feel on the inside. The dash is very pleasingly designed, and it all has this solidarity and closeness. The seats are some of the most comfortable car seats I have ever been in, and the cloth just feels rich rich rich. The amazing fit of everything on the inside surpasses many luxury cars.

The hardest part to swallow about the new Camry: the exterior has real grace and presence. The body is elegant, dynamic, and even gasp sporty. The rear is a great angle, especially in darker colors and in sport trim. The only dumbass design element is that frog headed grille. Aside from that, the Camry has finally evolved into one good looking athletic sedan. That is a tough pill to swallow.

[turbo200]

The question is, though, can GM have a SINGLE #1 selling sedan when its mid-size cars are broken up between 3 divisions?  Doubtful.

I can see their approach working.  Sell Aura to premium Camry and Accord shoppers, sell the G6 to Nissan shoppers and sell the Malibu to lower-trim 4-banger Camcord shoppers.  Instead of having one do-all be-all car, ala the Camry, have 3 that fit specific needs, but together accomplish a total volume go.

I dunno, maybe I don't have the insight, but it makes sense to me.  IF the G6 and Malibu were actually competitive that is.

Problem though, as it stands the 3 have too much overlap in price and powertrain.  Give the Malibu the 2.2 Ecotec and 2.8l DOHC V6 (base CTS engine).  Give the G6 the 2.4 and 3.6 and the Aura the 2.8 and 3.6.  You'd essentially have 3 cars with specific needs for specific buyers doing the same thing that the Camry does with its, what?  6 trim levels?

The problem is, if the cars were designed right from the get go, GM would have 3 top sellers on its hands, in the form of Malibu, G6, and Aura. They would steal a lot of share from Honda and Toyota, which is not impossible, you just must attract the Honda and Toyota freak customers with something alluring, something that actually attracts. The other problem for GM is that they are working really hard to not compete with each other, when they should just focus on making the best possible f%^545 car!!!

[ZL-1]

Sometimes I get the feeling that GM and Ford need the kind of "shock treatment" GE got when Jack Welch became CEO.

[Flybrian]

Thanks. At least now I know. Should've guessed based on the lack of response to my flagging the post. Unbelievable.

You reported the post at 2:13PM today (4.18). You gauge poor response time at 3:28PM today; that's one hour and fifteen minutes on a Tuesday.

Some of us have jobs.

[sciguy_0504]

unfortunately, your assessment rings all to true. in terms of exterior and interior refinement, the Aura merely meets the competitors where they were in 2002. The competition has since learned and increased the levels of sophistication, and their design is truly noteworthy and appealing. Things that were sacrificed on the production Aura for the sake of cheaper stamping or whatever have left it undistinguishable, whereas the concept had real presence thanks to a great face, and a killer body.

I had high hopes for the Aura, and I still believe it will meet thier target volume [a paltry 100k units, drop of a dime in that segment], but I think it may come at the expense of different GM products rather than Honda or Toyota converts. The Saturn just lacks the outright intensity and lustiness to capture minds.

The new Camry has amazing feel on the inside. The dash is very pleasingly designed, and it all has this solidarity and closeness. The seats are some of the most comfortable car seats I have ever been in, and the cloth just feels rich rich rich. The amazing fit of everything on the inside surpasses many luxury cars.

The hardest part to swallow about the new Camry: the exterior has real grace and presence. The body is elegant, dynamic, and even gasp sporty. The rear is a great angle, especially in darker colors and in sport trim. The only dumbass design element is that frog headed grille. Aside from that, the Camry has finally evolved into one good looking athletic sedan. That is a tough pill to swallow.

Turbie, you're great.

At this point, the Malibu is out of the game. The G6 looks great on the outside but needs an interior redo. While one part of me wants GM to drop the I4 in the G6 (V6 excitement) and put it in the Aura, another part wants both cars to have the engine to attract as many customers as possible. The G6 lineup is also confusing to me with 4 (?) different engines, 3 (?) different transmissions, etc. Costs could be lowered if people would nail down their choices. The Aura looks alright on the outside and has a fairly good interior but the center stack needs some work as it appears to be the only blemish on an otherwise competitive offering. Something about this whole lineup of GM midsize cars is so confusing but I cannot put a finger on what.

[Mr.Krinkle]

damn you. damn you flybri.

dont you know this is more important.

[Mr.Krinkle]

what is a camry anyway?

is that all there is to look up to? i dont like them. id much rather any american, pushrods and all kind of car.

what is the lure? the atraction? what makes them so good?

i know thats a lot of questions, but really now.

is that what people want or is that what they are told to want?

if only there was a way to conduct a "pepsi challenge" with this horsesh*t.

this has been said many ways many times--if you like to drive you dont want a camry. they are no fun. just transportation. a to b.

is that all people want. damn this instant messaging, ready in one hour drive through thank you come again world were living in now.

id still rather have an impala. or really more so a bonneville.

[Flybrian]

what is a camry anyway?

is that all there is to look up to?  i dont like them.  id much rather any american, pushrods and all kind of car.

what is the lure?  the atraction?  what makes them so good?

i know thats a lot of questions, but really now.

is that what people want or is that what they are told to want? 

if only there was a way to conduct a "pepsi challenge" with this horsesh*t.

this has been said many ways many times--if you like to drive you dont want a camry.  they are no fun.  just transportation.  a to b.

is that all people want.  damn this instant messaging, ready in one hour drive through thank you come again world were living in now.

id still rather have an impala.  or really more so a bonneville.

A man with taste!

In all seriousness, I really don't see how the 2002-06 Camry sold as well as it did. It was a mediocre offering on all fronts, perhaps slightly besting cars on the brink of being redesigned. At the very least, the visually-unattractive '07 has those proper ingredients for success.

[Petra]

I agree with the asessment that the Aura will a "niche" product, at least relative to the heavyweights in the midsize market. However, I fail to see how GM will not make money off the car. The only thing they really spent any money on is the interior (and, I agree again, they should have spent more). The cost of the platform, powertrains, and all the other major components have probably long since been amortized by other parts sharers and platform mates, or, like the 6-Speed Slushbox, will be before long. Combine this with the Aura's high sticker price (relative to its platform mates), and I'm quite confident that the car will be profitable for GM, even at a "mere" 70,000 units/year. For better or worse, it is a car that takes no risks.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Petra

[Angry Dad]

First, I never proclaimed myself a 'net expert...I'm a car expert compared to the majority of the people who troll this site- obviously, yourself included. I wasn't trying to call attention to my knowledge, but rather that I have an enormous opportunity to experience all kinds of products...but lets get to your ill-advised attempt to 'knock off my crown':

As far as Toyota effectively managing their press and pressuring websites and print press, I never stated they didn't, so before you attack me, keep in mind you should at least know what point I'm trying to make...you obviously don't...how about rereading some of my posts? 

Even if you were 100% right, that doesn't mean that GM, Ford or any other manufacturer hasn't done the same thing...the difference is, they were much more ham-Handed about it (the LA Times/Neil G6/GM debacle comes immediately to mind). Furthermore, if you know anything about history and the press, you should note that big, powerful interests have always had a strong influence in the publication of all types of issues - the government & vietnam, GM & Ralph Nader (hear about GM trying to smear Ralphie by sending hookers and photogs to his hotel rooms after the Corvair fiasco??? They got busted too, just like Toyota and engine sludging....history didn't start when the internet began, you nimrod!)

Despite the occassional lapse (and I have never stated Toyota built a perfect product), Toyota consistently puts out good stuff...not great, not world class in every respect, but well built, solid, reliable transport...exactly what the general public wants...and even if you don't believe me, or the internet sites or magazines or research companies - ask someone who got burned by GM or DCX or Ford or VW, et al...they'll tell you.

I guess I didn't realize the whole world revolved around the internet and the bleatings of lemmings like yourself....I got news for you buddy, lots of people don't use the 'net at all, and those that do aren't worried about engine sludging on a few models from a few years ago. (If you were so smart, you'd know that Toyota quietly redesigned the oil circulation on it's 6's to eliminate the probelm, but that's another story.

How about crawling back under the rock you came from...you want to argue that GM is a more ethical corporation than Toyota? Please. GM, from the lead in gasoline (they fought removing lead from gas for 50 years...ever see a child with an excess of lead in their system...well, actually, you may be a victim yourself, given the brain development problems it causes), GM fought seatbelts, GM killed Tucker, GM owns multiple superfund cleanup sites...so when you attack Toyota for hiding its sludging problems, keep in mind that its contemporary competition have their own skeletons (Henry Ford was a rabid Nazi, Benz used slave labor, and the list goes on....)

Perhaps if you got off your computer and out in the real world, you'd realize that PEOPLE are full of information and the 'net is NOT the only reality. Glad you called my bluff...good luck disconnecting from the Matrix, Neo.

Dear self appointed and anointed expert. I'm not here to trash you, but you are here to trash GM.

It is such a pleasure to be upstaged by such "greatness". But your problem is, you think you know it all. Old saying and it puts you in your place, who's smarter? You or we? From your baloney, it's you. The intelligent answer is we.

Sorry but the original point is media bias, it's there. It's real. Go back to your trekie party now.

Oh by the way, exactly why is such an expert on a GM fan site trashing GM? You spend time with Buickman?

[bowtie_dude]

Dear self appointed and anointed expert. I'm not here to trash you, but you are here to trash GM.

It is such a pleasure to be upstaged by such "greatness". But your problem is, you think you know it all. Old saying and it puts you in your place, who's smarter? You or we? From your baloney, it's you. The intelligent answer is we.

Sorry but the original point is media bias, it's there. It's real. Go back to your trekie party now.

Oh by the way, exactly why is such an expert on a GM fan site trashing GM? You spend time with Buickman?

enzl has far more insight on GM and the industry as a whole than you and I put together. Dismissing his opinions and observations as nonsense just because the FACTS he gives you don't align with your particular point of view doesn't make him wrong.

Sad fact is, its yes-men like you working in GMs upper management that have led GM to its current position. Were there more people like enzl and evok making the decisions, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Flybrian]

Angry Dad, Enzl, et al. There's no need for personal attacks and insults to be traded from either side.

If you disagree, disagree respectfully. If you truly feel you are in the right, argue in a civil form. If that is too much to ask, then let time be your evidence.

If that is too much to ask, then perhaps this isn't the place for you.

P.S. As far as Future_of_GM's position as a Moderator, this gentleman has been with C&G since nearly the beginning and has contributed and assisted in many ways, both publically and behind the scenes. I remind you a Moderator must strive to be fair and impartial in his duties, but not in his opinions regarding the automobile industry.

Now please, let's continue with the topic at hand. Thank you.

[CARBIZ]

I love this game of trying to guess who is who on this site. I think everyone on this site, from the 18 year old enthusiast driving his/her first used Grand Am, to the RenCen mole dropping hints and tidbits of of info, to the Toyota apologist - all of these people have something interesting and worthwhile to bring to this site.

Although some of the arguments get a little tired at times, one thing this site is not is BORING.

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND, I find it encouraging that someone as informed as Carlos Ghoshn (or whatever his spelling is, I long ago forgot what the topic of this thread actually was!) feels that GM still has enough spark in it to be a potential threat on the market.

This is what has been keeping me getting up every morning for work: the deep belief that GM does build quality, relevant products and that once GM emerges from this dark time it will maintain its crown as the world leader in automobiles.

[Camino LS6]

What Fly said x2

[bowtie_dude]

What Fly said x2

*pokes Fly and Camino in the nose*

HA! *runs away*

[Mr.Krinkle]

enzl has far more insight on GM and the industry as a whole than you and I put together.  Dismissing his opinions and observations as nonsense just because the FACTS he gives you don't align with your particular point of view doesn't make him wrong.

Sad fact is, its yes-men like you working in GMs upper management that have led GM to its current position.  Were there more people like enzl and evok making the decisions, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

yes, its all about st. enzle.

we are all entitled to our opinions, dont try to change mine unless its worth it. and it aint. get lost.

[Mr.Krinkle]

whether goshn was sincere or not (i suspect smugness on his part) so be it.

teddy roosevelt knew just what to say to people like that.

lets see what happens. bring it on.

[Camino LS6]

*pokes Fly and Camino in the nose*

HA!  *runs away*

Ouch!

Why, I outta...

[enzl]

Dear self appointed and anointed expert. I'm not here to trash you, but you are here to trash GM.

It is such a pleasure to be upstaged by such "greatness". But your problem is, you think you know it all. Old saying and it puts you in your place, who's smarter? You or we? From your baloney, it's you. The intelligent answer is we.

Sorry but the original point is media bias, it's there. It's real. Go back to your trekie party now.

Oh by the way, exactly why is such an expert on a GM fan site trashing GM? You spend time with Buickman?

Please restrict your replies to germane info. I speak facts, truth and, quite frankly, I have much more riding on GM than you. I'll continue to speak my mind, feel free to speak yours....and, while your at it, prove me wrong. I wish I was wrong.

[Croc]

Enzl, knock it off.

[Angry Dad]

Henry Ford was NOT a Nazi... Simple history can teach you that. He had involvement with Hitler BECAUSE of the manufacturing advancements Hitler fostered (And yes, HITLER WAS GOOD AT WHAT HE DID---yet that doesn't make him ethical or right)

On a related note: The arrogance of the 'insiders' on this site is getting very tiring. You come here and condescend to enthusiasts, much like the media does to domestic companies (GEEE, a coincidence?) and then blatantly insult us when we DON'T BEND TO THE 'TOYOTA NOW RULES THE WORLD' status quo after being LIFETIME GM/domestic fans. You see, we're no so quick to SELL OUT like your organizations. So you're an insider/analyst/dealer/media/whatever.... Big F-in' deal!!!!! Your opinions SUCK just as bad as mine and everyone elses here; the only difference being that people actually pay you for them.

I was going to put away the personal stuff (and BTW, my tirade you quote was mostly directed at an individual who attacked me - unprovoked, I might add), but since you've decided to, in essence, defend Henry Ford as not being a Nazi sympathizer---well, suffice it to say you need to read up on your history...He has been quoted as an anti-semite repeatedly- & financed/published pro-Nazi newspapers in this country until we declared war on Germany.

And, to add insult to injury, you qualify your ignorant statements by stating that Hitler was good at what he did...what exactly was that??? Putting innocent people to death, ravaging the entire European continent with a horrific war? Oh, right, the Germans were good at manufacturing...that's what Ford was interested in---the anti-semetism was just a natural offshoot of his love for Hitler?

I have a question...where are the admins when this guy spouts this drivel....you want to be mad at me cause of my opinions FOG, at least let me give you a reason...you're a moron, plain and simple....when you make these idiotic statements, you completely diminish all credibility you might have and make yourself and those that agree with you look like fools....

For the last time, since apparently only you haven't gotten the message: I'm NOT an insider and I have NO joy stating my opinions, just alot more basis in reality when I state them. If you don't like my attitude, go elsewhere or ignore my posts....you know what Hitler did to people when he didn't like their opinions (well, based on your rant, you probably don't.)

You wanna debate like a man, go ahead, otherwise, ignore my posts and move on with your life. I not only know more about the industry than you, it also appears I know a little more about life as well. Grow up.

You claim that you drive hundreds of cars every year.

Where do you valet?

And why do you steal the spare change out of the cupholders?

Honored by your almighty response.

[evok]

The new Camry has amazing feel on the inside. The dash is very pleasingly designed, and it all has this solidarity and closeness. The seats are some of the most comfortable car seats I have ever been in, and the cloth just feels rich rich rich. The amazing fit of everything on the inside surpasses many luxury cars.

The hardest part to swallow about the new Camry: the exterior has real grace and presence. The body is elegant, dynamic, and even gasp sporty. The rear is a great angle, especially in darker colors and in sport trim. The only dumbass design element is that frog headed grille. Aside from that, the Camry has finally evolved into one good looking athletic sedan. That is a tough pill to swallow.

I agree 100% on you assessement of the 07 Camry. It is a modern equivalent of the 1957 Chevy. There is a certain sporty, elegance that not only has been lacking from Toyota but in the mid segment of the market for many many years. The appliance has come of age.

And as you have said, that is tough to say.

[bowtie_dude]

I agree 100% on you assessement of the 07 Camry.  It is a modern equivalent of the 1957 Chevy.  There is a certain sporty, elegance that not only has been lacking from Toyota but in the mid segment of the market for many many years.  The appliance has come of age.

And as you have said, that is tough to say.

Indeed.

But I still had that lime green surrounding the radio. Looks like it came from a shower radio.

[evok]

I take that back - maybe a 55 Chevy. The 57 IMO is overrated.

[bowtie_dude]

I take that back - maybe a 55 Chevy.  The 57 IMO is overrated.

I don't know enough about classic cars to have an opinion.

[evok]

Indeed.

But I still had that lime green surrounding the radio.  Looks like it came from a shower radio.

I like the effect. With or without it, it is still better than any of the GM interiors.

[evok]

I don't know enough about classic cars to have an opinion.

The 1955 - 1957 Chevrolets are arguably some of the best midsized cars for their day. And they have been collectors classics for their appeal for many years now. Just an all around great package for their time.

[bowtie_dude]

I like the effect.  With or without it, it is still better than any of the GM interiors.

I'd just prefer a larger readout.

But the overall design and appeal is still great. Toyota knows how to design interiors, I'll give them that. Lexus interiors continue to be my favorite design wise.

[evok]

What Fly said x2

Ignore works wonders for people like him.