RENAULT-NISSAN BOSS PREDICTS RECOVERY FOR GM

[CaddyXLR-V]

If the product was right (see BMW), people would pay for a decontented product (BMW wasn't always a premium brand)...GM can't win if it doesn't put the best product on the market.

If your satisfied with GM producing the same vehicle as their competitors, than you're right. Why can't the product be demonstrably better? That's the question we should be asking. I don't want a Camry with a GM badge...I want a Chevy that's faster, safer, more fun and better looking, for around the same price....if you aim at a moving target, you shoot where its going, not where it's been. If you're satisfied with the 2009 Malibu being as good as an 05 Camry, than you're not thinking like a successsful business person.

I didn't say thats what I would be aiming for. Though BMW doesn't sell the amount of volume GM needs to stay in business. Reducing capacity just increases the handicap GM has per car. If GM's costs were variable, that would be fine. GM would be able to produce less cars at a higher price. But producing less cars for GM now, would mean higher costs per car, negating the price increase. I think GM needs to do something different. GM needs to connect with consumers in a way that they would be willing to pay more, but for not much more of an increase in content. GM needs to regain it's American spirit, and stop trying to beat the Japanese at their own game, because they will lose everytime. GM needs to show its heritage in its designs, like the Camaro. The Japanese cant go there.

[enzl]

I didn't say thats what I would be aiming for. .......... I think GM needs to do something different. GM needs to connect with consumers in a way that they would be willing to pay more, but for not much more of an increase in content. GM needs to regain it's American spirit, and stop trying to beat the Japanese at their own game, because they will lose everytime. GM needs to show its heritage in its designs, like the Camaro. The Japanese cant go there.

OK. Now it's no longer Media Bias, it's GM's floundering that results in the mess we;ve got. Now I feel better.

[evok]

No, it would mean depression in those and other areas of the country. And a systemic decline in the entire nation's economy. It would be the final knock-out punch to manufacturing in the US which will marginalize its position in the world at large. The paradigm shift from producer nation to consumer nation would be assured by the loss of the domestic auto industry - there would be no turning back. We are already in deep trouble on this front and our mortgaged to the hilt society leaves us all looking like UAW members facing the end of the national gravy train. Our levels of debt public and personal, and our lack of export vitality all point to our standard of living becoming unsupportable in a hurry. No, I don't believe that a GM failure would be the root cause of the disaster I'm laying out. But I do believe a failure of the domestic auto industry at any faster pace than 2-3 decades will push us past the point of no return.

Fortunately, I also believe that GM will not go bankrupt and that, albeit a bit late, we as a nation can and will head off the disaster.

Learn your history. GM's relevance to WWIII is almost zero. GM's relevance to the economy would be replaced if they were to fold. Things change and society evolves. A GM failure is blip on the economy as consumers have left GM in the past 30 years in the US GM is irrelevant in the big picture in the US. The economy is very complex and GM is but a point of reference and not a standard anymore.

Be smart and buy GM stock.

[regfootball]

My dad's 80's Toyota truck lasted well over 200,000 miles and the only reason he got rid of it was due to body rust.  Everyone will have different experiences.  Your truck lasted a long time and even post warranty Toyota paid for what happened, known engine problems or not.  That is luck.

his truck should never have rusted

[Camino LS6]

Learn your history. GM's relevance to WWIII is almost zero.  GM's relevance to the economy would be replaced if they were to fold.  Things change and society evolves.  A GM failure is blip on the economy as consumers have left GM in the past 30 years in the US  GM is irrelevant in the big picture in the US.  The economy is very complex and GM is but a point of reference and not a standard anymore.

Be smart and buy GM stock.

I have a better than average grasp on history,thank you very much.

WWIII? I have no idea what you mean by that.

You diminish the significance of American manufacturing and its importance to maintaining our standard of living. As far as a GM failure goes, a blip and a disaster are separated by a number of decades and GM has not yet slid to the point where it's failure would be insignificant. GM remains terribly relevent to the US economy despite its financial health of late. Moreover, the cascade begun by a GM failure would have an exponential effect throughout the whole economy.

Had I some free investment funds, I would most certainly be buying GM stock right now - I believe that the company is headed for a major comeback very soon.

[evok]

I have a better than average grasp on history,thank you very much.

WWIII? I have no idea what you mean by that.

You diminish the significance of American manufacturing and its importance to maintaining our standard of living. As far as a GM failure goes, a blip and a disaster are separated by a number of decades and GM has not yet slid to the point where it's failure would be insignificant. GM remains terribly relevent to the US economy despite its financial health of late. Moreover, the cascade begun by a GM failure would have an exponential effect throughout the whole economy.

Had I some free investment funds, I would most certainly be buying GM stock right now - I believe that the company is headed for a major comeback very soon.

Yea whatever - you have no idea what you are talking about. RW might very well turn the company around, the stock should go up but GM's relevance to the country is severely diminished except for the retirees. And with 300 million in the states there significance is over blown.

WWWIII - I will not answer that further because you do not have a grasp on history from your above comments.

There was a hell of lot more "lost" value/worth in Enron when they blew up compared to GM. And that was just a blip on the US economy.

[Camino LS6]

What we are dealing with here is purely hypothetical anyway, and likely moot as GM will use its considerable array of options to avoid bankruptcy effectively. So doomsday won't be coming any time soon. What we will likely see is a slow methodical evolution of the situation with an attendent decline in the power of the UAW and an increase of pressure for some form of national health care reform. GM will be fine, just different.

[Camino LS6]

Yea whatever - you have no idea what you are talking about.  RW might very well turn the company around, the stock should go up but GM's relevance to the country is severely diminished except for the retirees.  And with 300 million in the states there significance is over blown.

WWWIII - I will not answer that further because you do not have a grasp on history from your above comments.

There was a hell of lot more "lost" value/worth in Enron when they blew up compared to GM.  And that was just a blip on the US economy.

You have the tact of the average patch of poison Ivy. No need to get haughty and mysterious, if you have some bit of knowlege you think is so relevent, then spell it out. Your WWII reference is so vague that I can think of many interpretations for it . Obviously, it is some sort of buzzword for you that I'm not aquainted with, your assertion that I have no grasp on history is equally vague. Why don't you clarify and support your remarks, thereby adding to the discussion. I have no desire to be in a personal spat with you. I would, however, like to know just what you mean by your comments and summary judgement of my knowlege of history. I accept that you have a perspective on the automotive industry that I do not, but to dismiss my ability to decode your cryptic references does not indicate a lack of perspective on my part.

[evok]

What we are dealing with here is purely hypothetical anyway, and likely moot as GM will use its considerable array of options to avoid bankruptcy effectively.

This is not hypothetical but real. The situation at GM is dire and ranks up there with the early 1990s implosion, when GM was on the verge of having to file Chapter 11.

So doomsday won't be coming any time soon.

That is open for debate.

What we will likely see is a slow methodical evolution of the situation with an attendent decline in the power of the UAW and an increase of pressure for some form of national health care reform.

What do you think has been happening the past 3 decades?

GM will be fine, just different.

True - but how different is the real wild card!

Remember that GMs true retail market share in the US is in the high teens, app. 18%. And those sales are heavily supposrted by GM discounts. ie Retirees and employees are buying the product, not real customer demand. There is a lot of room to define different.

Edited April 17, 2006 by evok

[Angry Dad]

The Media Bias is BS...how many pop culture items are popular, despite media negativity- from music, fashion, books, etc...you find plenty of intellectual cries that are inversely proportional to economic success...

Here's the real reason: Why should Joe American 6 Pack invest $20k or more on a risk?... when all logic, research and word-of-mouth indicates he/she can walk into a Toyota (Honda, Nissan, etc...) and get exactly what's paid for....Why hope GM is 'making better products now', when one can get a better product, no questions asked? Until someone here (and more importantly, GM) can provide a fool-proof, consistent argument to that conundrum, GM's market share will shrink. Great product from other sources (Koreans) have only accelerated the process.

There are no manufactured "trends"?

Ever hear (hopefully not) of the Black Eyed Peas?

I have no doubts that Toyota has used the net to it's own agenda. Beyond any doubt they have closed forums critical of their products. Has GM done that? I say they are the ultimate hypocrites. Toyota sells on fear. Fear perpetutated by their own PE departments. Fear of the "typical" American auto worker being paid "too much" or "drunk on the job" or the rest of the nonsense.

[Camino LS6]

This is not hypothetical but real.  The situation at GM is dire and ranks up there with the early 1990s implosion, when GM was on the verge of having to file Chapter 11.

That is open for debate.

What do you think has been happening the past 3 decades?

True - but how different is the real wild card!

Remember that GMs true retail market share in the US is in the high teens, app. 18%.  There is a lot of room to define different.

Guess what? In general I agree with you. I do feel that GM has not fallen to the level of blip in the overall economy yet and that a catastrophic ending isn't how things will go down. A true failure of GM would take decades anyway and by the time it might occur GM will by definition be nothing but a blip should things go that way. The current situation is most certainly a crisis (maybe GM's biggest and most important) but it isn't the end game. It would seem our disagreement is a matter of timing and degree. Even our views on the outcome seem to be in line.

[evok]

Guess what? In general I agree with you. I do feel that GM has not fallen to the level of blip in the overall economy yet and that a catastrophic ending isn't how things will go down.  A true failure of GM would take decades anyway and by the time it might occur GM will by definition be nothing but a blip should things go that way. The current situation is most certainly a crisis (maybe GM's biggest and most important) but it isn't the end game. It would seem our disagreement is a matter of timing and degree. Even our views on the outcome seem to be in line.

GM is not going away. They just will be smaller in the US. Possibly a lot smaller.

[Camino LS6]

GM is not going away.  They just will be smaller in the US. Possibly a lot smaller.

If smaller = better, I don't have a problem with that. Being #1 in volume seems an empty title anyway. It's profit that counts.

[evok]

You have the tact of the average patch of poison Ivy.

Yea - It is a curse and lucrative talent.

Your WWII(I) (sic) reference is so vague that I can think of many interpretations for it . Obviously, it is some sort of buzzword for you that I'm not aquainted with, your assertion that I have no grasp on history is equally vague. Why don't you clarify and support your remarks, thereby adding to the discussion. I would, however, like to know just what you mean by your comments and summary judgement of my knowlege of history.

Easy question to resolve.

You diminish the significance of American manufacturing and its importance to maintaining our standard of living.

There is no mass manufacturing in America anymore of any significance. The US auto industry was relevant in WWII because of the times but they will not be in a hypothetical WWIII. Smart bombs are built in a lab and not in a refurbished Grand Prix plant. Times have changed as have GM/Ford's importance to the country and national security. GM/Ford as a company are replaceable and has been on the cusp of being replaced for years now.

In a country of 300 million people, GM/Ford only hires about 200,000. That is not significant in 2006 when compared to the percentage in the 1960s. GM/Ford do not employ, directly or indirectly the percentage of the US population they once did and therefor do not have the impact on the US standard of living today as they did in the past.

My WWIII comments were based upon, GM/Ford's not being relevant in fighting the next war. As a result, not as relevant to the country as they were in the 1940s during the WWII build up.

So with GM and Ford both not the significant players they once were in the US auto industy, not employing the high number of people they once did, not likely to build smart bombs for the next world war they are only a marginal factor in the US economy and importance to the conutry.

[enzl]

There are no manufactured "trends"?

Ever hear (hopefully not) of the Black Eyed Peas?

I have no doubts that Toyota has used the net to it's own agenda. Beyond any doubt they have closed forums critical of their products. Has GM done that? I say they are the ultimate hypocrites. Toyota sells on fear. Fear perpetutated by their own PE departments. Fear of the "typical" American auto worker being paid "too much" or "drunk on the job" or the rest of the nonsense.

Please disclose evidence supporting your claims...and why GM can't do the same thing...they advertise in the same places and GM spends MORE on advertising than Toyota, so how does their influence become LESS significant.

I drive 100's of cars/year. Do you?

I see 'em off the truck, I see 'em with 100K on the clock. I, unlike you, have personal experience with a wide range of product and, the bottom line is, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW and assorted others DO NOT make product that is as flawless from the get-go, nor do they age as well as Toyotas or Hondas. That's just fact...can we find individual examples of vehicles that counter that trend- of course, but as a whole, the average product coming from T or H has been superior for years...and judging from GM's new stuff, they haven't advanced the standard one inch - possibly equalled, but clearly not exceeded in ANY area!

[evok]

Please disclose evidence supporting your claims...and why GM can't do the same thing...they advertise in the same places and GM spends MORE on advertising than Toyota, so how does their influence become LESS significant.

... GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW and assorted others DO NOT make product that is (are) as flawless from the get-go, nor do they age as well as Toyotas or  Hondas. That's just fact...can we find individual examples of vehicles that counter that trend- of course, but as a whole, the average product coming from T or H has been superior for years...and judging from GM's new stuff, they haven't advanced the standard one inch - possibly equalled, but clearly not exceeded in ANY area!

Agree.

[evok]

If smaller = better, I don't have a problem with that. Being #1 in volume seems an empty title anyway. It's profit that counts.

Well there are a lot of question marks that are left to the future.

GM in the US is the poster child of USSR style communism run awry.

A welfare state of diminishing importance with increasing obligations.

Profits? There is still a lot to overcome!

[bowtie_dude]

I wish you two (evok and enzl) posted more often. I love both of your insights on things, as I believe you two have a much more clear and unclouded view of GM and the industry as a whole. =)

What obstacles, from your points of view, has GM not overcome that is still causing them to faulter in key areas such as perceived quality and design? I mean, GM of today isn't the GM of the 80s where engine blocks where cracking and trannys were falling off. They've fixed the major stuff, but still can't get the many small details that, when summed up, make for one large problem area. And even THAT isn't consistent. You look at the Sky interior which is probably the best anyone has ever (at least IMO), seen in a GM vehicle. And then you sit in the Aura which just wreaks of GMs problems of late. The quality is there, but the presentation isn't. Doesn't make sense.

[Camino LS6]

Yea - It is a curse and lucrative talent.

Easy question to resolve. 

There is no mass manufacturing in America anymore of any significance.  The US auto industry was relevant in WWII because of the times but they will not be in a hypothetical WWIII.  Smart bombs are built in a lab and not in a refurbished Grand Prix plant.  Times have changed as have GM/Ford's importance to the country and national security.  GM/Ford as a company are replaceable and has been on the cusp of being replaced for years now.

In a country of 300 million people, GM/Ford only hires about 200,000.  That is not significant in 2006 when compared to the percentage in the 1960s.  GM/Ford do not employ, directly or indirectly the percentage of the US population they once did and therefor do not have the impact on the US standard of living today as they did in the past.

My WWIII comments were based upon, GM/Ford's not being relevant in fighting the next war.  As a result, not as relevant to the country as they were in the 1940s during the WWII build up.

So with GM and Ford both not the significant players they once were in the US auto industy, not employing the high number of people they once did, not likely to build smart bombs for the next world war they are only a marginal factor in the US economy and importance to the conutry.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't agree with the marginal description, although that certainly is the trend.

[Mr.Krinkle]

"So, the media is justifying their pre-set opinions? At least come up with a credible explanation...other than accusing media types of accepting bribes...which, again, you've substantiated with nothing.

i never used that word...br be is such a dirty word.

its called advertising and sposorship.  lets not be so naive.  just look around the "internet" long enough and you can find your own examples.  ill play along and give you one.  when the enclave concept photos were released there was one site in particular that ragged on it.  a closer look revealed the content was sponsored by lexus.  its not a bad thing but a general rule of business is not to upset your major sponsors.

You tell me why a normal consumer (not an enthusiast w/insight and knowledge) should take a perceived risk with their hard earned money?

You can't. Solve that riddle and GM or Ford has a fat job waiting for you....

are you offering me a job? 

(BTW-just to show you how wrong you are, please reread any recent review of the GMT-900's or the Vette...both of which got excellent press, are selling well and MOST IMPORTANTLY- are world class, value-priced products. If GM could manage a couple more, they'd be just fine. Time will tell if 'wait until next year' is finally around the corner. Meanwhile, GM is having its clock cleaned...walk into the morgue that most local GM shops have become and ask them how sales are...

[

yes they continue to sell well regardless. maybe a little more so, but the fact is these cars and trucks always did well. they just now get the support and commendation.

im not arguing the fact there are differences in autombile ownership, but everything will have a risk. whether its an idiosyncratic flaw or something given a cute little name like "electrical gremlin" there will be something.

theres been a lot of technology thats been introduced so i would hardly call it fred flinstone type cars. drive by wire, heads up d, hydroformed chassis', theres got to be more.

it would be foolish to solely blame the media. thats not what ive been saying, but i do at least acknowledge a disparity that exists. have you ever heard dont by this benz, its gonna break down? no, but at least youll be comfortable waiting on the side of the road.

answer this, how come whenever i hear an older or poorly kept import, japanese in particular, they sound like pure crap. thats not subjective its a fact.

but when an older american made car chugs by it sounds meaner and nastier than a stock car.?

i think, this is only my opinion now, i think that as cars get older american ones specifically can get by longer with less. assuming their basic integrity is in tact and not rusted and rotted. theres no fact or evidence, just an observation on my part.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Camino LS6]

Well there are a lot of question marks that are left to the future.

GM in the US is the poster child of USSR style communism run awry.

A welfare state of diminishing importance with increasing obligations.

Profits?  There is still a lot to overcome!

Agreed. I have to believe that the UAW can read the writing on the wall. A sea-change needs to occur in this aspect of things.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yeah it might be nice change of pace if they were the size of a typical manufacturer.

a little focus can go long way.

the gm model of business never really took the future into account.

the feast or famine scenario i like to call it.

times were good everybody got what they wanted. who cares, have some seconds...desert on the house.

now its hardly like that to say the least.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

What obstacles, from your points of view, has GM not overcome that is still causing them to faulter in key areas such as perceived quality and design?

Simple question, the product. Without looking at a crystal ball, and talking as a consumer, there is almost no reason for me to walk into a GM brand dealership. GM does not build vehicles that I want or for that matter what the public wants in the US based upon sales trends.

That is the most troubling aspect of GM's outlook. Only an incentive will get me into a GM product. I find it very troubling that a company the size of GM with the multitude of brands and vehicles they offer does not have ANY product that I will consider, unless subsidized.

I find it even more troubling that a Hyundai Sonata appeals more to me than anyone of GM's latest offerings.

Just walk into any GM brand dealerships and you will see the obstacles.

[evok]

Agreed. I have to believe that the UAW can read the writing on the wall. A sea-change needs to occur in this aspect of things.

We will see what happens with the UAW. Gettlefinger and Shoemaker get it but I find their lack of effort in selling the story to their members a problem. I suspect that after elections in June and Gettlefinger retains his job that the real work publically will heat up and he will begin to sell the US OEMs pitch. Also, it will be interesting as to the number of takers to the GM buyouts. One has to be pragmatic in this business.

Edited April 17, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

yes, but believe it or not in this day in age there are some people who refuse to by korean manufactured products.

same way so many wwII survivors swore not to drive german cars.

eventually this card will have been played then no excuses will be left.

Theres really no car or truck youd consider?

that really could be an indication of the market in general.

nonetheless, unless a dire personal vow exists to never ever own a particular car, most do cross-shop. its foolish not to see what the others have to offer. then factor things like price, style, dealership, etc etc.

in the end its the cars that sell themself. if its not up to par then you hit the bricks.

i honestly dont see that much difference between the brands, low to mid price range anyway.

$h! i saw a benz sl convertable the other day. impeccable absolutely stunning interior. i could have owned any other car in the world and felt like crap after seeing that.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Camino LS6]

We will see what happens with the UAW.  Gettlefinger and Shoemaker get it but I find their lack of effort in selling the story to their members a problem.  I suspect that after elections in June and Gettlefinger retains his job that the real work publically will heat up and he will begin to sell the US OEMs pitch.  Also, it will be interesting as to the number of takers to the GM buyouts.  One has to be pragmatic in this business.

Again I agree. It will be interesting to follow.

[bowtie_dude]

evok,

Well, my question is, then, WHY is GM still not able to bring out products that it needs? Is it management? Funding? A combination of factors?

[evok]

evok,

Well, my question is, then, WHY is GM still not able to bring out products that it needs?  Is it management?  Funding?  A combination of factors?

No balls and an institutionalized mid-west mind set? Also, GM is still paying the price from the Ron Zarella business plan. Sticking with that plan when Lutz came one board turns out to be a very bad move because the product is a dud. That is a hindsight only critique but it illustrates the position GM is in. They invsted a lot of money in product that is not selling, which forces them to contract further with less money to invest in future product. There really is no easy straight forward answer and is a combination of the factors you mentioned. Man if only GM could have invested all of that money they are going to buyout their employees with into the product, things might be different.

Instead they keep peace with the UAW and loose people like me as a customer.

Rick is in a tuff position.

Edited April 17, 2006 by evok

[enzl]

I wish you two (evok and enzl) posted more often.  I love both of your insights on things, as I believe you two have a much more clear and unclouded view of GM and the industry as a whole.  =)

What obstacles, from your points of view, has GM not overcome that is still causing them to faulter in key areas such as perceived quality and design?  I mean, GM of today isn't the GM of the 80s where engine blocks where cracking and trannys were falling off.  They've fixed the major stuff, but still can't get the many small details that, when summed up, make for one large problem area.  And even THAT isn't consistent.  You look at the Sky interior which is probably the best anyone has ever (at least IMO), seen in a GM vehicle.  And then you sit in the Aura which just wreaks of GMs problems of late.  The quality is there, but the presentation isn't.  Doesn't make sense.

Thanks for the compliment.

I'd like to reiterate, for the sake of posters who are not familiar with me, that I have NO axe to grind, in fact, I'm an ardent suporter of the Big 2.5 (but not an enabler, as some people here are.)

To answer the question--I believe the problem stems from a large organization in a constant state of flux, along with a culture of yes-men and diluted responsibility...the details you're commenting on are the key, because those are just the things you CAN see...Why spend .05 more on a part or suggest that possibility in a meeting when saying 'yes, that's as good as the competition's' will get you a promotion? or keep you from being fired? And when the car comes out, and the part isn't as good, there were 10 committees that passed that part through...so who do you blame? Everyone, which really means noone!

One example that says everything: GM just started testing parts to failure, rather than a pre-set mileage or time! ( I believe this nugget came out in discussion of the G6 convertible delay, IIRC) In other words, if the part lasted for 80K (for example), then they stopped! Now, I don't know about you, but most people want more than a pre-set mileage out of a vehicle, or want the option of giving that car to their kids, knowing its OK. Would you feel OK about your kids testing components? I wouldn't.

GM needs to leapfrog, instead it's playing catch-up. Until they get it in gear, they'll be the Costco of the Automotive world...special prices and bulk buyers....that's not setting an aspirational tone for your product. The encouraging thing is that this can all change...see the Caddy revivial, or Hyundai or Kia's success currently...they CAN do it. It'll be interesting to see if their coprporate culture allows it to happen.

[regfootball]

wouldn't make more sense to do what the bill payers want? (i.e. customers?) bust the union if you need to.

No balls and an institutionalized mid-west mind set?  Also, GM is still paying the price from the Ron Zarella business plan.  Sticking with that plan when Lutz came one board turns out to be a very bad move because the product is a dud.  That is a hindsight only critique but it illustrates the position GM is in.  They invsted a lot of money in product that is not selling, which forces them to contract further with less money to invest in future product. There really is no easy straight forward answer and is a combination of the factors you mentioned.  Man if only GM could have invested all of that money they are going to buyout their employees with into the product, things might be different.

Instead they keep peace with the UAW and loose people like me as a customer.

Rick is in a tuff position.

[enzl]

wouldn't make more sense to do what the bill payers want?  (i.e. customers?)  bust the union if you need to.

'Busting' the Union would be suicide...or bankruptcy.

The only 'out' is a negotiated settlement, a multi-billion dollar buyout and a corporate restructuring which basically creates a manufacturing base in China and Korea to pay for the costs of the buyout and restructuring.

Anything less will result in a delay of the inevitable, IMO.

[evok]

wouldn't make more sense to do what the bill payers want?  (i.e. customers?)  bust the union if you need to.

They do not know what customers want and they are afraid. Afraid to make bad decisions and as a result make them anyway.

Look at the Aura, a brand new car that is a gerneration behind the competition in styling.

They had a golden opportunity with the Aura but instead of going for a home run, they hit a solid single into the outfield. They will not turn the company around with decisions like that.

Another example is the lack of follow up to the success of the CTS. Instead of pushing the envelope with the SRX and STS, they cave to fear and the market still is buying the CTS and the STS/SRX linger on the lots.

As for union busting - contracts are LEGAL agreements.

[regfootball]

well, then the union is not helping at all. Contract or not. Even NFL players see the light sometimes and restructure their deals to get within line of what their contributions to the success of the product are.

[evok]

well, then the union is not helping at all. 

Not true - go over the GM press releases over the past 6 months.

[nzr]

It's good that Mr. Ghosn speaks out in public about this.

[Angry Dad]

Please disclose evidence supporting your claims...and why GM can't do the same thing...they advertise in the same places and GM spends MORE on advertising than Toyota, so how does their influence become LESS significant.

I drive 100's of cars/year. Do you?

I see 'em off the truck, I see 'em with 100K on the clock. I, unlike you, have personal experience with a wide range of product and, the bottom line is, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW and assorted others DO NOT make product that is as flawless from the get-go, nor do they age as well as Toyotas or  Hondas. That's just fact...can we find individual examples of vehicles that counter that trend- of course, but as a whole, the average product coming from T or H has been superior for years...and judging from GM's new stuff, they haven't advanced the standard one inch - possibly equalled, but clearly not exceeded in ANY area!

calling your bluff bud, I'm not saying where I work but I do have more access to the real deal.

Yes Toyota shut down web sites during the height of the sludge debacle. I have no doubt about it. Edmunds cowed to their pressure. Other sites evaporated. Gee who or better what was the cause?

Where has GM exceeded Toyota? Whe I drive down the interstate I think about how much of it GM paid for and how much Toyota contributed or will. Try none or as little as posible. Yes what a corporation does besides the crap with a sticker on it does make a difference, unless you are shallow and self centered, willing to sell out your neighbor to save fifty cents. It's not beneath Toyota to manipulate what is printed about them. The sludge defect proved it.

It's the net, I'm smart enough to know what I do but having some dipstick automatically proclaim themselves smarter....well you shot yourself dead center in the ass. I don't care who I piss off. But when it's somebody that puts on the crown by self proclomation, even better.

[Angry Dad]

Look at the Aura, a brand new car that is a gerneration behind the competition in styling.

Since the competition is the new Camry, being behind is a good thing. Doesn't matter how it gets spun, that Camry is always gonna be ugly.

[Munson05]

People love a train wreck - it's human nature.  But when you discover Aunt Suzy crushed under the wheels, your attitude changes real quick. If you like your standard of living, you had better hope GM recovers.

Very true, It seems like every car GM produces has sick scrutiny. NO car is perfect GM is on the upswing.

[evok]

calling your bluff bud, I'm not saying where I work but I do have more access to the real deal.

Yes Toyota shut down web sites during the height of the sludge debacle. I have no doubt about it. Edmunds cowed to their pressure. Other sites evaporated. Gee who or better what was the cause?

Where has GM exceeded Toyota? Whe I drive down the interstate I think about how much of it GM paid for and how much Toyota contributed or will. Try none or as little as posible. Yes what a corporation does besides the crap with a sticker on it does make a difference, unless you are shallow and self centered, willing to sell out your neighbor to save fifty cents. It's not beneath Toyota to manipulate what is printed about them. The sludge defect proved it.

It's the net, I'm smart enough to know what I do but having some dipstick automatically proclaim themselves smarter....well you shot yourself dead center in the ass. I don't care who I piss off. But when it's somebody that puts on the crown by self proclomation, even better.

Oooooooooooooooooo Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

[enzl]

calling your bluff bud, I'm not saying where I work but I do have more access to the real deal.

Yes Toyota shut down web sites during the height of the sludge debacle. I have no doubt about it. Edmunds cowed to their pressure. Other sites evaporated. Gee who or better what was the cause?

Where has GM exceeded Toyota? Whe I drive down the interstate I think about how much of it GM paid for and how much Toyota contributed or will. Try none or as little as posible. Yes what a corporation does besides the crap with a sticker on it does make a difference, unless you are shallow and self centered, willing to sell out your neighbor to save fifty cents. It's not beneath Toyota to manipulate what is printed about them. The sludge defect proved it.

It's the net, I'm smart enough to know what I do but having some dipstick automatically proclaim themselves smarter....well you shot yourself dead center in the ass. I don't care who I piss off. But when it's somebody that puts on the crown by self proclomation, even better.

First, I never proclaimed myself a 'net expert...I'm a car expert compared to the majority of the people who troll this site- obviously, yourself included. I wasn't trying to call attention to my knowledge, but rather that I have an enormous opportunity to experience all kinds of products...but lets get to your ill-advised attempt to 'knock off my crown':

As far as Toyota effectively managing their press and pressuring websites and print press, I never stated they didn't, so before you attack me, keep in mind you should at least know what point I'm trying to make...you obviously don't...how about rereading some of my posts?

Even if you were 100% right, that doesn't mean that GM, Ford or any other manufacturer hasn't done the same thing...the difference is, they were much more ham-Handed about it (the LA Times/Neil G6/GM debacle comes immediately to mind). Furthermore, if you know anything about history and the press, you should note that big, powerful interests have always had a strong influence in the publication of all types of issues - the government & vietnam, GM & Ralph Nader (hear about GM trying to smear Ralphie by sending hookers and photogs to his hotel rooms after the Corvair fiasco??? They got busted too, just like Toyota and engine sludging....history didn't start when the internet began, you nimrod!)

Despite the occassional lapse (and I have never stated Toyota built a perfect product), Toyota consistently puts out good stuff...not great, not world class in every respect, but well built, solid, reliable transport...exactly what the general public wants...and even if you don't believe me, or the internet sites or magazines or research companies - ask someone who got burned by GM or DCX or Ford or VW, et al...they'll tell you.

I guess I didn't realize the whole world revolved around the internet and the bleatings of lemmings like yourself....I got news for you buddy, lots of people don't use the 'net at all, and those that do aren't worried about engine sludging on a few models from a few years ago. (If you were so smart, you'd know that Toyota quietly redesigned the oil circulation on it's 6's to eliminate the probelm, but that's another story.

How about crawling back under the rock you came from...you want to argue that GM is a more ethical corporation than Toyota? Please. GM, from the lead in gasoline (they fought removing lead from gas for 50 years...ever see a child with an excess of lead in their system...well, actually, you may be a victim yourself, given the brain development problems it causes), GM fought seatbelts, GM killed Tucker, GM owns multiple superfund cleanup sites...so when you attack Toyota for hiding its sludging problems, keep in mind that its contemporary competition have their own skeletons (Henry Ford was a rabid Nazi, Benz used slave labor, and the list goes on....)

Perhaps if you got off your computer and out in the real world, you'd realize that PEOPLE are full of information and the 'net is NOT the only reality. Glad you called my bluff...good luck disconnecting from the Matrix, Neo.

[Camino LS6]

Let's tone down the insults please.

[The O.C.]

Instead they keep peace with the UAW and loose people like me as a customer.

Rick is in a tuff position.

I feel the same way.....there's almost NOTHING to bring me into a GM showroom......

If GM can't keep people like us, that once had a strong sense of loyalty to GM, how can they EVER attract those young people that have grown up knowing nothing BUT imports, imports, imports...?

It's sad.....really sad......

[The O.C.]

Until they get it in gear, they'll be the Costco of the Automotive world...

I don't know.....I'd say that even GM isn't at the level of organization, efficiency, and customer service that CostCo is at.....

I'd say they have a ways to GO before then can begin to equal the quality of the business model found at CostCo....

[The O.C.]

Since the competition is the new Camry, being behind is a good thing. Doesn't matter how it gets spun, that Camry is always gonna be ugly.

The AURA's a joke compared to the new Camry......in any way you compare it.

Sorry....but the truth hurts, GM.....

[Flybrian]

Let's tone down the insults please.

What he said.

[Mr.Krinkle]

being dismissive and adding insults? ya know, you guys were making good points for a while, almost intelligent for a while.

i think its safe to say all the car companies have their problems and the bottom line its a business and it should be run as such. whatever that entails to insure the best chance for success. shady practices? skeletons? good luck bringing those to light from japan or korea. i havent heard great things about korean labor. but what does that matter.

do you think they came here soley to give us better cars? by give i mean sell.

wasnt out of the kindness of their hearts.

toyota has clearly set the target on gm but while they are out getting new product and entering classes and options in an attempt (largely successful) to trump gm, the koreans have been quietly sneaking up.

pretty soon they will have two fronts to deal with, much in the same gm has had 3 or 4 fronts to contend with. not to mention the luxury markets toyotas been sorely trying to rip from from the germans. a task proven to be more difficult than their "conquests" over here. they must be scratching their heads or laughing how easy we are over here.

not too sound overly dramatic but i dont think toyota will ever be able to deal gm a "death blow" its gonna happen at their own (GMs) hands if it does at all...which i personally dont see happening.

as for the internet dealy--check your facts. print publications are sinking and offer phenomenal deals to keep or add customers. more and more advertisers are neglecting traditional radio and tv spots for cyber messages.

so, yeah, more people are exposed to the internet than any other form of advertising.

its one of those things thats constantly there sometimes you dont even think about it. like a marlboro ad on F1 cars or the billboard in right field. those have been proven more effective than most types of advertising.

oh, and lastly- i doubt there will be free giveaways and lowered prices if worst case scenarios ever play out. prices are just gonna keep going up. like they are already. more economics. very smart people figure out the most someone will pay for a product. camry is going up slowly but surely. last year during those giant sales, toyota raised their prices (among others) and still had better sales.

a very sad comment indeed. lets hope things dont change so much for now.

i think its foolish to have a complete or total allegiance to one car company. there are many great products from all makes. grinding an axe on a web boards is easy to say and im sure most here do have their reason for what they say, be it personal or whatever. competition in markets is a good thing. if the bar was never raised itd stay put.

even so, id take an impala over a camry any day of the week. i think id personally take anything over a camry. i just dont like them and i have a feeling their bubble will burst soon. theyrre all over the place and im sick of seeing them.

i wonder if others will feel similarly and begin to look elsewhere.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

The AURA's a joke compared to the new Camry......in any way you compare it.

Sorry....but the truth hurts, GM.....

The problem with the Aura is that it is designed to be a niche vehicle with a constrained volume between 70 - 100k vehicles. So why not push the envelope on interior and exterior styling since it is only a niche vehicle. Or move the bar up on sophistication. The Aura does not even offer a level of perceived sophistication when compared to the competition on refinement or asthetics (interior/exterior).

As you have pointed out in the past, a significant majority of Camry, Altima and Accords are 4 cylinders. Yet GM believes they are offering the 3.5 in the Aura as a horsepower advantage to the competition but sacrifices the OHC refinement. That is old school thinking as is the the wood grain interior trim.

The Aura with the 3.6 is a hot car and the Redline will be nice but the problem is that they have limited appeal, in a new market, a questionable brand with no history in the segment - how much is that going to add to the bottom line. Maybe 20k vehicles at most. Plus at a price point of app. $30k for a Saturn is tough to swallow in this market.

When compared to the New Camry and Altima, the Aura is just another product in an already crowded segment. It does not stand out as anything special to the average person that buys on perception.

Let the future prove me wrong but I do not see the Aura being for Saturn like the 2002 Altima jump started Nissan. The 2002 Altima increased in sales from 100k to over 200k last year.

The new Camry is a solid hit and will hold what Toyota already has.

The Aura is typical GM two step forward, one step back approach to product planning.

GM needs buyers on the left and right coasts, will the Aura succeed in that mission?

[Mr.Krinkle]

arent all cars "niche" vehicles. im tired of that term.

every single car is made with someone in particular in mind. theyrre not niche cars just cars.

[bowtie_dude]

This is so depressing...

[evok]

arent all cars "niche" vehicles.  im tired of that term.

every single car is made with someone in particular in mind.  theyrre not niche cars just cars.

In case you did not read my post carefully I will spell it out again!

Saturn Aura - Projected sales 70 - 100k

Nissan Altima - 225 - 250k

Toyota Camry - 400k

Honda Accord - 400k

The Saturn is a niche vehicle for the segment.