Detroit 2012: The 3 Engines Of ATS: Comments

[hyperv6]

The Cruze is even in the Eco form is a pleasant car. I can only imagine the extra work and money will have a most positive effect on the new engines. GM has already made Wards to engine list several times with the 2.0 Turbo I can imagine it will only improve it's standing with the improvments on NHV.

Actually, sometimes technology makes engines less refined. I can easily name two...

Direct Injection -- all else being equal makes an engine significantly noisier and introduces a gritty groan to the acoustic signature. The Port Injected 3.6 V6 is significantly more refined than the DI 3.6 V6 (prior to the LFX revision) specifically because it doesn't have DI

Aluminum blocks -- all else being equal are noisier and less refined than Iron blocks because of Aluminum's lower tensile and higher radiative properties. Two leading contributors to the Cruze's 1.4T perceived refinement is that it has an iron block and doesn't use direct injection!

The aluminum blocks are more than supported by other means. In many cases cranks and other parts stiffen the engine more than the iron counter part. The LS bottm end is much siffer than other Chevy V8s in the past.

To the contrary the noise of a direct inject is mostly the injector noise that is similar in sound to a Deisel. But to combat that they have insulated the engine more and it is not detectable in most cars. So refinement is a matter of where you stand or in this case sit. It is a case of two steps forward one step back.

I think they will quiet the DI engines as time goes on. They will come up with much quieter injectors and High Pressure pumps as the system becomes more common. GM added a nice insualted box to cover my injector pump to kill most of the noise. My worst noise is on start up the inake adjust to get the car warm as quick as possible. My engine temp is up in less than the first mile. The intake makes a loud hollow sound that sounds damn near horrible. But it the door shuts once the temp is up. It too is only heard outside car but not behind the wheel. I will gladly accept these sound to get the MPG and power I have.

[dwightlooi]

The Cruze is even in the Eco form is a pleasant car. I can only imagine the extra work and money will have a most positive effect on the new engines. GM has already made Wards to engine list several times with the 2.0 Turbo I can imagine it will only improve it's standing with the improvments on NHV.

Actually, sometimes technology makes engines less refined. I can easily name two...

Direct Injection -- all else being equal makes an engine significantly noisier and introduces a gritty groan to the acoustic signature. The Port Injected 3.6 V6 is significantly more refined than the DI 3.6 V6 (prior to the LFX revision) specifically because it doesn't have DI

Aluminum blocks -- all else being equal are noisier and less refined than Iron blocks because of Aluminum's lower tensile and higher radiative properties. Two leading contributors to the Cruze's 1.4T perceived refinement is that it has an iron block and doesn't use direct injection!

The aluminum blocks are more than supported by other means. In many cases cranks and other parts stiffen the engine more than the iron counter part. The LS bottm end is much siffer than other Chevy V8s in the past.

To the contrary the noise of a direct inject is mostly the injector noise that is similar in sound to a Deisel. But to combat that they have insulated the engine more and it is not detectable in most cars. So refinement is a matter of where you stand or in this case sit. It is a case of two steps forward one step back.

I think they will quiet the DI engines as time goes on. They will come up with much quieter injectors and High Pressure pumps as the system becomes more common. GM added a nice insualted box to cover my injector pump to kill most of the noise. My worst noise is on start up the inake adjust to get the car warm as quick as possible. My engine temp is up in less than the first mile. The intake makes a loud hollow sound that sounds damn near horrible. But it the door shuts once the temp is up. It too is only heard outside car but not behind the wheel. I will gladly accept these sound to get the MPG and power I have.

Actually part of the reason the GM DIs are noisier than say the VW/Audi ones is their choice of solenoid injectors vs Piezo injectors. But even the T-FSI 2.0T GTi is noiser than the old port injected 1.8T ones.

[ZL-1]

Yes or the 1.6T from Opel producing ~210 hp would do the trick to keep three "different" engines.

I agree on the differentiation side, but that's too old of an engine... The new GM family of smaller turbocharged 4-cyl engines is due IIRC around 2013.

Wonder why a twin turbo diesel hasn't been announced... GM has a twin-turbo 2.0L diesel already and could perhaps apply the same twin turbo concept to the 2.2L diesel used in the Captiva to create a quite competitive diesel offering here in Europe... I sometimes wonder how serious GM is about bringing Cadillac to Western Europe...

Edited December 23, 2011 by ZL-1

[smk4565]

Probably not too serious since a diesel wasn't already announced.

[hyperv6]

Yes or the 1.6T from Opel producing ~210 hp would do the trick to keep three "different" engines.

I agree on the differentiation side, but that's too old of an engine... The new GM family of smaller turbocharged 4-cyl engines is due IIRC around 2013.

Wonder why a twin turbo diesel hasn't been announced... GM has a twin-turbo 2.0L diesel already and could perhaps apply the same twin turbo concept to the 2.2L diesel used in the Captiva to create a quite competitive diesel offering here in Europe... I sometimes wonder how serious GM is about bringing Cadillac to Western Europe...

I suspect the reason is the priority for this car is America and we will see a Diesel later with a later release for the ATS in Europe. I feel GM will do like the Cruze and other models with the ATS but they will this time release it here first and then the other markets later.

I have not read that this is what they will do but I just get a feeling they will not release it world wide in the first year or two. I believe they will get this car ready for Europe after they get it right for here. Besides I really don't think they are ready with their new small Diesels yet.

Edited December 23, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

If I were GM. I would hold off on the ATS in the EU till all of the body styles were available. Not coincidentally, that will be right around the same time a diesel would be ready and around the time a new CTS and ZTS would be ready. Drop into the EU with 3 brand new cars all at once.

[hyperv6]

If I were GM. I would hold off on the ATS in the EU till all of the body styles were available. Not coincidentally, that will be right around the same time a diesel would be ready and around the time a new CTS and ZTS would be ready. Drop into the EU with 3 brand new cars all at once.

That was my thinking. Till we see more like a Wagon I really thing they will focus on the US market for now. Also they need to make sure the cars are right for over there before they do anything as they can not afford to fail again there.

[smk4565]

Dropping 3 cars at once makes sense so they can make an impact and have a selection of models for customers to choose from. The only risk in waiting too long is introducing an ATS that is already old to a group of buyers that are tough to win over.

[hyperv6]

Dropping 3 cars at once makes sense so they can make an impact and have a selection of models for customers to choose from. The only risk in waiting too long is introducing an ATS that is already old to a group of buyers that are tough to win over.

It will be new to them. Also if it is as good as we hope a delay will only generate more interest in the car when it arrives.

Either way they drop it now they will drop an old CTS on them that is not intune with their market and only an idiot would drop a single model on their market. GM needs to do this right and there will be a need for each model dropped to be intune to the wants and needs of the Euro buyer as of now only the CTS wagone is anything close to their wants. Also they will need at least two or 3 models when they try again and I don't see the XTS being one of them.

[FAPTurbo]

Let me put it this way...

* Some people on this board, and perhaps others like this, will be put off by a Cadillac which uses a Malibu engine.

That's about eight people on the internet and they cannot afford it anyway so who cares.

[smk4565]

Dropping 3 cars at once makes sense so they can make an impact and have a selection of models for customers to choose from. The only risk in waiting too long is introducing an ATS that is already old to a group of buyers that are tough to win over.

It will be new to them. Also if it is as good as we hope a delay will only generate more interest in the car when it arrives.

Either way they drop it now they will drop an old CTS on them that is not intune with their market and only an idiot would drop a single model on their market. GM needs to do this right and there will be a need for each model dropped to be intune to the wants and needs of the Euro buyer as of now only the CTS wagone is anything close to their wants. Also they will need at least two or 3 models when they try again and I don't see the XTS being one of them.

Thus the problem with Cadillac's lineup. They can't sell an Escalade or XTS in Europe, I doubt the SRX would sell much even with a diesel or hybrid. So they are left with the ATS and CTS only, and the CTS has already failed there in both generations. It will be hard to have both the ATS and CTS fresh and good enough to break into Europe and steal buyers from the Germans. It is possible, but very difficult to break in.

[Drew Dowdell]

*break through

[hyperv6]

Dropping 3 cars at once makes sense so they can make an impact and have a selection of models for customers to choose from. The only risk in waiting too long is introducing an ATS that is already old to a group of buyers that are tough to win over.

It will be new to them. Also if it is as good as we hope a delay will only generate more interest in the car when it arrives.

Either way they drop it now they will drop an old CTS on them that is not intune with their market and only an idiot would drop a single model on their market. GM needs to do this right and there will be a need for each model dropped to be intune to the wants and needs of the Euro buyer as of now only the CTS wagone is anything close to their wants. Also they will need at least two or 3 models when they try again and I don't see the XTS being one of them.

Thus the problem with Cadillac's lineup. They can't sell an Escalade or XTS in Europe, I doubt the SRX would sell much even with a diesel or hybrid. So they are left with the ATS and CTS only, and the CTS has already failed there in both generations. It will be hard to have both the ATS and CTS fresh and good enough to break into Europe and steal buyers from the Germans. It is possible, but very difficult to break in.

But do you know the plans Cadillac has for the next 10 years for the states let alone Europe? No.

At this point the ATS is only the first of the post chapter 11 cars designed and developed with the new money and the new plans. GM has gone dark on what they are working on and how they will market the lines. For once we all have to wait to see what all they have planed.

With the work they have done already with product they had already started pre Chapter 11 they have done well so I expect things will only improve at this point We do know there are plans to get more product and imporved product into the Cadillac and Buick showrooms. The key is as you should already know that they have to take it one line at a time as they can not do them all in one year. The cash flow from the ATS will be used for the next car and that cars cash will flow into the next. Also the man power it take to get this stuff done is great. There are only so many people and so many hours.

They will get to where they need to be but it will take a few more years. In the mean time The SUV's and present CTS will keep the cash coming in and the show rooms flowing. And as we can see now you understand it will take cars not just SUV's to go to Europe.

Edited December 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

I don't know if Cadillac has the money, people and hours to produce a lineup that can sell in Europe. That is my worry. It will take years because the SRX and CTS will have to be next generation so that puts them back a few years. Maybe 2016you or so they can make a run at it.

But while Cadillac gets cash if the SRX and CTS in the USA, Mercedes is getting cash off multiple models in multiple countries. The S-class for example is the most profitable car and globally it outsells the CTS. Mercedes can keep building their lead, they have the most money.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac won't take the lead with the next generation of cars, but I have every expectation they will close the gap.

[smk4565]

Building the car is one thing, then they have to convince the international market to buy it. That is the hardware part. Even in China, Cadillac is far behind the Germans in sales. I think the sales/marketing end of it will be harder than the engineering side.

[Robert Hall]

Building the car is one thing, then they have to convince the international market to buy it. That is the hardware part. Even in China, Cadillac is far behind the Germans in sales. I think the sales/marketing end of it will be harder than the engineering side.

I do wonder how GM markets Cadillac in Europe or China..never seen ads from those markets...do they emphasize the American nature of it?

[dwightlooi]

Building the car is one thing, then they have to convince the international market to buy it. That is the hardware part. Even in China, Cadillac is far behind the Germans in sales. I think the sales/marketing end of it will be harder than the engineering side.

I do wonder how GM markets Cadillac in Europe or China..never seen ads from those markets...do they emphasize the American nature of it?

They should... Buicks dominate in China.

[smk4565]

Building the car is one thing, then they have to convince the international market to buy it. That is the hardware part. Even in China, Cadillac is far behind the Germans in sales. I think the sales/marketing end of it will be harder than the engineering side.

I do wonder how GM markets Cadillac in Europe or China..never seen ads from those markets...do they emphasize the American nature of it?

They should... Buicks dominate in China.

But Buick isn't a luxury car, it is mid-range car. They sold 550,000 Buicks in China, but a lot of that is the Excell and the Astra hatch and Verano. LaCrosse and Regal combined for 183,000 cars. Which are strong sales numbers, but they aren't priced in the luxury range. The Buick version of the Commodore/Statesmen is 369,000 RMB, about what a Mercedes C200 costs in China.

Cadillac sold 17,000 vehicles in China in 2010, so a pretty big drop off when you move to the higher price range.

[Intrepidation]

This is one of those cares where the more I see it the more I like it, especially with better (R8 V10-esque) wheels than the crappy chrome wheels the in the press photo cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

All of the cars this year, not just the ATS, look tremendously better in person.