113 MPG Next-Gen Prius???

[KillFort]

Don't know if this has already been posted, let alone if it is all BS... let's hope so for GM's sake.

Tuesday 4th April 2006

Prius hits 113mpg

Toyota is charging ahead in the race for domination of the hybrid car market, according to Auto Express spies.

The firm's next Prius will be so efficient it will be the first production car capable of returning more than 110mpg. The newcomer is being developed to try to improve European sales. While the car has been a success in the US, it has met a mixed reaction on this side of the Atlantic, due to the popularity of diesel models.

But now we've been told that engineers working on the new Prius have a fuel economy target of 40km/litre - a mind-boggling 113mpg.

"The whole electrical system has been redesigned to improve economy" said one Toyota engineer. "We are working on a prototype that runs solely on the electric motor in slow traffic, but switches to engine and motor drive when higher speeds are needed." The secret lies with the batteries. The current Prius uses nickel-hydride items, which currently offer the best balance between cost and performance.

But engineers are working on new lithiumion cells, which are lighter, smaller, generate more power and last longer. Subaru and Mitsubishi both plan to sell electric cars by 2010, but Toyota hopes to get its new model on the road as early as 2008.

And improved economy isn't the firm's only goal, as engineers are working on reducing the current car's 10.9-second 0-62mph time by more than a second.

Peter Lyon - Article from: Auto Express

Edited April 13, 2006 by KillFort

[pow]

It's only going to get better and better.

[Northstar]

Maybe EPA estimates will be 113, but that means you're looking at about 70 in real world driving (going by the drop off seen in the current one). 70 is obviously really good, but I highly doubt it will get 113 in real-world driving.

One of my teachers has a Prius and doesn't even get 40MPG.

[Petra]

Now that Hybrid cars are becoming more mainstream, it only makes sense for Toyota to use the Prius as a sort of testing bed to push the envelope even further.

I, for one, would be delighted to have a car that returned 70 MPG, even if that meant it was falling short of it's EPA rating. I mean, even the Insight doesn't get 70 real-world MPG, which would make this new Prius the most fuel efficient car on the road. And, when you've got the most fuel efficient car on the road at a "mere" 70 MPG, I don't think it matters too much that it's falling short of the claimed mileage.

[regfootball]

Maybe EPA estimates will be 113, but that means you're looking at about 70 in real world driving (going by the drop off seen in the current one). 70 is obviously really good, but I highly doubt it will get 113 in real-world driving.

One of my teachers has a Prius and doesn't even get 40MPG.

yes some folks who have had ecotecs in Saturn L's and Malibus have said that they can achieve mid-upper 30's, like 35+

[toyoguy]

Peter Lyon has a credible Toyota source, but I'm sure that's Japanese mpg, not EPA #'s.

Either way the new Prius will get noticiably better mileage as the system improves.

[toyoguy]

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1743417,00.html

[Sixty8panther]

It's only going to get better and better.

A lot of people said that in the early 1970s but we all know how the

next two decades turned out. The Prius is a marketing tool plain &

simple. It's overly complex, underwhelming and over rated.

[Enzora]

A lot of people said that in the early 1970s but we all know how the

next two decades turned out. The Prius is a marketing tool plain &

simple. It's overly complex, underwhelming and over rated.

Umm...cars have gotten a LOT more fuel efficient over the last couple decades. But since gas prices have, until recently, remained ridiculously low, there's been no real incentive to use the technology to make them have better gas mileage. So instead, they used the efficiency to make bigger and more powerful cars.

Remember, necessity is the mother of invention.

[Domesticated]

A lot of people said that in the early 1970s but we all know how the

next two decades turned out. The Prius is a marketing tool plain &

simple. It's overly complex, underwhelming and over rated.

Exactly. Although instead of it being a marketing tool, it's just a plain ol TOOL. And the drivers of these cars are TOOLS for paying too much money when you could get an ecotec for less money and similar mileage results.

I want to run Prius's off the road when I see them but I don't want to scratch up my G6...

So I flip them the bird instead. Get the hell off my roads moron!!!

[Endo]

AutoExpress is British so that's 113 Imperial gallons which comes to 93 mpg American.

http://tunertuesdays.autoblog.com/2006/04/...t-with-100-mpg/

If they manage to significantly improve fuel economy and performance that will be quite impressive and a huge seller. Still at least two years away, though, so this might all be BS.

I imagine they'll want to lighten the car quite a bit to achieve those new numbers, which is great because modern cars keep getting fatter. Time to buck that trend.

[Paolino]

AutoExpress is British so that's 113 Imperial gallons which comes to 93 mpg American.

http://tunertuesdays.autoblog.com/2006/04/...t-with-100-mpg/

If they manage to significantly improve fuel economy and performance that will be quite impressive and a huge seller.  Still at least two years away, though, so this might all be BS. 

I imagine they'll want to lighten the car quite a bit to achieve those new numbers, which is great because modern cars keep getting fatter.  Time to buck that trend.

The car is incredibly light already. Try flying over bumps in that thing going 60... it just doesn't feel right.

[Snate]

Doubtful

At least not without a gigantic price increase.

[Endo]

The car is incredibly light already.  Try flying over bumps in that thing going 60... it just doesn't feel right.

Incredibly light? The thing weighs 2900 lbs. That's the same as the Buick Century in your sig.

[PurdueGuy]

Incredibly light?  The thing weighs 2900 lbs.  That's the same as the Buick Century in your sig.

While I'd agree that that isn't "incredibly light", it is pretty light, espeically considering the battery pack.

[siegen]

Back in 1999 the Insight was originally rated to 82mpg (converted to US gallons) for the Asian markets. And some European magazines reported close to or over 100mpg (in british gallons) real world testing. By the time it got here, it was only rated to 57 combined (50/64).

By the time this Toyota gets over here with extra safety and comfort features, it will probably see at best a 65mpg combined rating.

Edited April 14, 2006 by siegen

[Snate]

By the time this Toyota gets over here with extra safety and comfort features, it will probably see at best a 65mpg combined rating.

Yep...and it will probably start at 25K and still be slower than every 4 cyl car.

[sciguy_0504]

Yep...and it will probably start at 25K and still be slower than every 4 cyl car.

Awww...boo hoo.

[Snate]

Awww...boo hoo.

Aww...don't worry, I'm sure Toyota would have no problem selling everyone of them even if they were priced as high as 30K.

[Camino LS6]

And what, exactly, is "lithiumion"?

[pow]

And what, exactly, is "lithiumion"?

Lithium-ion?

From Apple website...

"Lithium-ion batteries pack in a higher power density than Nickel-based batteries. This gives you a longer battery life in a lighter package, as Lithium is the lightest metal. You can also recharge a Lithium-ion battery whenever convenient, without the full charge or discharge cycle necessary to keep Nickel-based batteries at peak performance. (Over time, crystals build up in Nickel-based batteries and prevent you from charging them completely, necessitating an inconvenient full discharge)."

[Camino LS6]

Lithium-ion?

From Apple website...

"Lithium-ion batteries pack in a higher power density than Nickel-based batteries. This gives you a longer battery life in a lighter package, as Lithium is the lightest metal. You can also recharge a Lithium-ion battery whenever convenient, without the full charge or discharge cycle necessary to keep Nickel-based batteries at peak performance. (Over time, crystals build up in Nickel-based batteries and prevent you from charging them completely, necessitating an inconvenient full discharge)."

Now that makes more sense, must have been a typo. As one word, I could barely even pronounce it.

[Viperfan07]

Exactly. Although instead of it being a marketing tool, it's just a plain ol TOOL. And the drivers of these cars are TOOLS for paying too much money when you could get an ecotec for less money and similar mileage results.

I want to run Prius's off the road when I see them but I don't want to scratch up my G6...

So I flip them the bird instead. Get the hell off my roads moron!!!

LOL, I like the way he thinks.

[PurdueGuy]

To give an idea of how nice Lithium-Ion batteries are, take a look at Milwaukee Tool's new line of 28 volt cordless tools. The batteries weigh the same as a typical 18V, but as said before, don't have to be treated carefully to keep from creating "memory". Finally, battery technology is getting somewhere. I know in the GM EV1 (electric car) they gained like 30-40% range when they switched from lead acid batteries to Nickel-metal hydride batteries. What I've heard of the Lithium-Ion batteries sounds like it's a simmilar jump in battery tech.

Edited April 15, 2006 by PurdueGuy

[Angry Dad]

Hasn't anybody noticed this:

"The firm's next Prius will be so efficient it will be the first production car capable of returning more than 110mpg. The newcomer is being developed to try to improve European sales. While the car has been a success in the US, it has met a mixed reaction on this side of the Atlantic, due to the popularity of diesel models."

The Prius is strugling elsewhere.

The noise about huge gains in economy is just that, noise wirh no substance. Reminds me of the typical Toyota bootlicker. Do it then talk about it. Otherwise its pure BS.

[Imaj]

GM should respond with a compact disel-hybrid.

[sciguy_0504]

Hasn't anybody noticed this:

"The firm's next Prius will be so efficient it will be the first production car capable of returning more than 110mpg. The newcomer is being developed to try to improve European sales. While the car has been a success in the US, it has met a mixed reaction on this side of the Atlantic, due to the popularity of diesel models."

The Prius is strugling elsewhere.

The noise about huge gains in economy is just that, noise wirh no substance. Reminds me of the typical Toyota bootlicker. Do it then talk about it. Otherwise its pure BS.

There is your clue as to why the Prius is struggling in Europe. A few years ago, car sales (actual sedans, coupes, etc) were struggling in the U.S. because of the popularity of SUVs and trucks.

Hybrids have shown that they get better mileage than regular vehicles.

[Paolino]

Incredibly light?  The thing weighs 2900 lbs.  That's the same as the Buick Century in your sig.

While I'd agree that that isn't "incredibly light", it is pretty light, espeically considering the battery pack.

Drive one.

Hit a bump going 60. It feels light. When I hit a bump going 60 in my Century, the car doesn't feel like it's been airborn for a split second.

[Cortazzo]

While toyota may be pushing the envelope in terms of advancing hybrid technology, i think the real promise is the hydraulic system that the EPA came up with and are testing out in UPS trucks. The vehicle stores energy from braking, and then uses it to help you take off from a stop. This kind of start/stop is what makes the city driving cycle so inefficient, and it's not a very expensive setup compared to all of the batteries and electronics required in a traditional hybrid. Something like this in combination with lightweight materials and other engine advancements should provide vehicles of all types with increasingly good economy.

And in regards to the person who said that efficiency hasn't gone up since the 70s, it has tredmendously. A full size pickup truck today gets the same mileage as a midsize sedan 30 years ago. Consumers have made the choice of using these technology gains to buy larger vehicles and more powerful vehicles (or both). With gas prices going up like they are, and probably going to stay around this level for ever, i'm sure that preference is going to change somewhat.

[Flybrian]

And in regards to the person who said that efficiency hasn't gone up since the 70s, it has tredmendously.  A full size pickup truck today gets the same mileage as a midsize sedan 30 years ago.  Consumers have made the choice of using these technology gains to buy larger vehicles and more powerful vehicles (or both).  With gas prices going up like they are, and probably going to stay around this level for ever, i'm sure that preference is going to change somewhat.

There is also the point that emissions have decreased dramatically over the past 30 or so years to the point where I feel there's a more credible danger from small, unsmogged engines like power equipment than automobiles.

[Robert Hall]

There is also the point that emissions have decreased dramatically over the past 30 or so years to the point where I feel there's a more credible danger from small, unsmogged engines like power equipment than automobiles.

Also, remember hybrids are also considerably cleaner than regular cars..(aren't some of them classified as ULEVs?). People focus on the gas mileage but forget about the cleanliness aspect...

How about all the filthy diesel buses and big trucks? They probably produce more way more particulate emissions than cars..

[Flybrian]

Also, remember hybrids are also considerably cleaner than regular cars..(aren't some of them classified as ULEVs?).   People focus on the gas mileage but forget about the cleanliness aspect...

How about all the filthy diesel buses and big trucks?  They probably produce more way more particulate emissions than cars..

Hence hybrid buses, too.

Actually, many regular internal combustion cars are classified as ULEV and SULEV. Here's a list of what GM makes that earns ULEV/SULEV ratings...

Economy & Efficiency Guide

Interestingly, that crappy old 3800 Series II was the first production V6 to be rated ULEV back in 2000 while the 3800 Series III was the first V6 to carry an SULEV rating. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

The Prius is a marketing tool plain &

simple. It's overly complex, underwhelming and over rated.

A marketing tool? Sure....

Complex? Definitely....

But have you ever driven one? Seriously? Styling aside...it's a neat little car....a nice driver....smooth, efficient, roomy....

I don't think you can in any way call it "underwhelming" or "over rated." It IS a technological marvel.....

[pow]

Also, remember hybrids are also considerably cleaner than regular cars..(aren't some of them classified as ULEVs?). People focus on the gas mileage but forget about the cleanliness aspect...

How about all the filthy diesel buses and big trucks?  They probably produce more way more particulate emissions than cars..

Actually, the Prius and Civic Hybrid get AT-PZEV ratings.

[pow]

List of non-hybrid PZEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) cars:

BMW 325Ci

Ford Focus

Ford Fusion I4

Honda Accord I4

Hyundai Elantra

Kia Spectra

Mazda 3

Mazda 6 I4

Mercedes-Benz E350

Mercury Milan I4

Mitsubishi Galant I4

Nissan Altima I4

Subaru Legacy 2.5i

Subaru Outback 2.5i

Toyota Camry

Volkswagen Beetle 2.5

Volkswagen Golf

Volkswagen Jetta 2.5

Volvo S40 2.4

Volvo V50 2.4

Volvo V70 2.4

[Angry Dad]

A marketing tool?  Sure....

Complex?  Definitely....

But have you ever driven one?  Seriously?  Styling aside...it's a neat little car....a nice driver....smooth, efficient, roomy....

I don't think you can in any way call it "underwhelming" or "over rated."  It IS a technological marvel.....

A crappy riding and handling "marvel". It's bad and there is no denying it.

BTW, goofy looking too.

It seems that it is also starting to garner an image. An image of a "S**t don't stink" people behind the wheel.

[sciguy_0504]

It seems that it is also starting to garner an image. An image of a "S**t don't stink" people behind the wheel.

The same could be said about a Benz driver (arrogant with money) and a Wrangler (arrogant jock). The Prius, and all hybrids, for that matter, has the arrogant enviromentalist image.

[BuddyP]

yes some folks who have had ecotecs in Saturn L's and Malibus have said that they can achieve mid-upper 30's, like 35+

My fiance's Alero 2.4L 16 valve get's low 30's mpg all day long

[PurdueGuy]

Drive one.

Hit a bump going 60.  It feels light.  When I hit a bump going 60 in my Century, the car doesn't feel like it's been airborn for a split second.

I drive a 2400 lb Saturn. If it feels any lighter than my car, it's a suspension issue, not a weight issue.

Edited April 17, 2006 by PurdueGuy

[Robert Hall]

A marketing tool?  Sure....

Complex?  Definitely....

But have you ever driven one?  Seriously?  Styling aside...it's a neat little car....a nice driver....smooth, efficient, roomy....

I don't think you can in any way call it "underwhelming" or "over rated."  It IS a technological marvel.....

I've driven one of the first gen ones... I went out to lunch with a coworker of mine that has a new one, I was surprised how comfortable it was with 5 people in it...a lot more spacious than it may look on the outside... I was giving him a hard time about it, though, since he is a conservative, Christian Republican and the Prius has an image about 180 degrees from that...(my view of right wingers is that they tend to gravitate towards Dodge Rams, Ford F350 Crew Cabs, and other macho vehicles..)

[regfootball]

ford escape 4 also

List of non-hybrid PZEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) cars:

BMW 325Ci

Ford Focus

Ford Fusion I4

Honda Accord I4

Hyundai Elantra

Kia Spectra

Mazda 3

Mazda 6 I4

Mercedes-Benz E350

Mercury Milan I4

Mitsubishi Galant I4

Nissan Altima I4

Subaru Legacy 2.5i

Subaru Outback 2.5i

Toyota Camry

Volkswagen Beetle 2.5

Volkswagen Golf

Volkswagen Jetta 2.5

Volvo S40 2.4

Volvo V50 2.4

Volvo V70 2.4

[BatmanGTO]

And what, exactly, is "lithiumion"?

[Camino LS6]

While toyota may be pushing the envelope in terms of advancing hybrid technology, i think the real promise is the hydraulic system that the EPA came up with and are testing out in UPS trucks.  The vehicle stores energy from braking, and then uses it to help you take off from a stop.  This kind of start/stop is what makes the city driving cycle so inefficient, and it's not a very expensive setup compared to all of the batteries and electronics required in a traditional hybrid.  Something like this in combination with lightweight materials and other engine advancements should provide vehicles of all types with increasingly good economy.

And in regards to the person who said that efficiency hasn't gone up since the 70s, it has tredmendously.  A full size pickup truck today gets the same mileage as a midsize sedan 30 years ago.  Consumers have made the choice of using these technology gains to buy larger vehicles and more powerful vehicles (or both).  With gas prices going up like they are, and probably going to stay around this level for ever, i'm sure that preference is going to change somewhat.

Wow! this hydraulic system sounds fascinating, gotta link?

[BrewSwillis]

It seems that it is also starting to garner an image. An image of a "S**t don't stink" people behind the wheel.

Edited April 17, 2006 by BrewSwillis

[buyacargetacheck]

Global Peak Oil production will make $5-6/gallon gasoline a reality by the end of the decade, just as GM is bringing out its V-8 Zetas. Believe me, we'll all be driving little hybrids soon (or we'll want to be driving one). Meanwhile, the economy will suck, we'll be bogged down in more wars, and chances are our government will stage another 9/11 to keep us all in line. Get ready to give up your Camaros for good.

[sciguy_0504]

Global Peak Oil production will make $5-6/gallon gasoline a reality by the end of the decade, just as GM is bringing out its V-8 Zetas.  Believe me, we'll all be driving little hybrids soon (or we'll want to be driving one).  Meanwhile, the economy will suck, we'll be bogged down in more wars, and chances are our government will stage another 9/11 to keep us all in line.  Get ready to give up your Camaros for good.

Edit: Secondly, didn't September 11, 2001 actually fuel the economic slowdown, help raise oil prices and the deficit?

Edited April 17, 2006 by sciguy_0504

[ponchoman49]

Maybe with a little japanese guy under the hood on his hamster wheel going down hill with a tail wind. Give me a break. Hasn't arrogant Toyota learned that people aren't that easily fooled.

[PurdueGuy]

Maybe with a little japanese guy under the hood on his hamster wheel going down hill with a tail wind. Give me a break. Hasn't arrogant Toyota learned that people aren't that easily fooled.

No, because a lot of people *are* that easily fooled...

[LTB51]

I posted something similar on the accord hybrid thread, but I think it applies here as well:

The misinformation and guess work about hybrids is amazing. It would be so easy to run a test to verify what the reality is, but who has actually tried?

This is the best (and I think only) I have seen so far where they actually compare hybrids to non-hybrids (although I wish they had thrown a 300C in as well :AH-HA_wink:):

http://www.drivingtelevision.com/segmentvi...e=312&segment=2

They follow a course of ~200KM of mixed driving around Vancouver. They attempt to go from the suburbs into downtown Vancouver and back, but the bridge to go downtown is closed so they never make it right downtown.

Here are the numbers they came up with:

4cyl Accord Auto 12.0L/100KM

Escape 4Cyl Auto 10.7L/100KM

Hybrid Accord Auto 9.1L/100KM

4cyl Camry Auto 8.9L/100KM

Hybrid Escape CVT 7.5L/100KM

VW Jetta TDI Turbo Diesel, Manual 6.8L/100KM

Prius 5.2L/100KM (54MPG)

The point is that the 4cyl Camry (which is no gas guzzler) gets ~75% worse fuel economy than the Prius.

I don't care what the EPA rates it, or what your best-friend's-sister got on a 2 mile stretch on the highway in their Iroc-Z, I don't care that it is going to take 6 years at today's oil prices to break even; those are damn impressive numbers. In terms of the improvement made in fuel economy for cars for the past two decades, they are astronomical.

And if someone has bought a hybrid regardless of the cost, because they care about using less fuel, either for the environment or so that their son or daughter or husband doesn't have to go to Iraq to fight, then I'd say good for them. Why do some people feel it appropriate to make fun of them?

Edited April 18, 2006 by LTB51

[Camino LS6]

I posted something similar on the accord hybrid thread, but I think it applies here as well:

The misinformation and guess work about hybrids is amazing.  It would be so easy to run a test to verify what the reality is, but who has actually tried?

This is the best (and I think only) I have seen so far where they actually compare hybrids to non-hybrids (although I wish they had thrown a 300C in as well  :AH-HA_wink:):

http://www.drivingtelevision.com/segmentvi...e=312&segment=2

They follow a course of ~200KM of mixed driving around Vancouver.  They attempt to go from the suburbs into downtown Vancouver and back, but the bridge to go downtown is closed so they never make it right downtown.

Here are the numbers they came up with:

4cyl Accord Auto  12.0L/100KM

Escape 4Cyl Auto 10.7L/100KM

Hybrid Accord Auto 9.1L/100KM

4cyl Camry Auto  8.9L/100KM

Hybrid Escape CVT  7.5L/100KM

VW Jetta TDI Turbo Diesel, Manual  6.8L/100KM

Prius            5.2L/100KM (54MPG)

The point is that the 4cyl Camry (which is no gas guzzler) gets ~75% worse fuel economy than the Prius.

I don't care what the EPA rates it, or what your best-friend's-sister got on a 2 mile stretch on the highway in their Iroc-Z, I don't care that it is going to take 6 years at today's oil prices to break even; those are damn impressive numbers. In terms of the improvement made in fuel economy for cars for the past two decades, they are astronomical. 

And if someone has bought a hybrid regardless of the cost, because they care about using less fuel, either for the environment or so that their son or daughter or husband doesn't have to go to Iraq to fight, then I'd say good for them.  Why do some people feel it appropriate to make fun of them?

Because they are not cost-effective, have over-inflated MPG ratings, because running the AC/heat drops them down to fuel economy numbers that standard cars can reach, because they are not panacea, because they are funny looking, because they are not fun, because they are a fad for the PC population...