LA 2011: Cadillac XTS: Comments

[ocnblu]

I am really curious how those two very divergent groups will intersect in this car. Old folks do not like to fiddle with stuff. If the salespeople know their product, maybe they can set the system for customers so they can just DRIVE the thing.

[Camino LS6]

I am really curious how those two very divergent groups will intersect in this car. Old folks do not like to fiddle with stuff. If the salespeople know their product, maybe they can set the system for customers so they can just DRIVE the thing.

Reading GM's press release, that seems to be exactly what they plan.

[ocnblu]

Which begs the question... why go to the trouble of installing the system in this model? I can see maybe the SRX, CTS and ATS... but not the Xtra Too Skinny.

[Camino LS6]

Which begs the question... why go to the trouble of installing the system in this model? I can see maybe the SRX, CTS and ATS... but not the Xtra Too Skinny.

Well, the car has tepid, me-too, styling and pedestrian underpinnings - so it needed to hang it's hat on something.

[Camino LS6]

I think I'm so down on this car because it makes me think of these awful things:

I sure hope we get some ATS tidbits to talk about soon.

[FAPTurbo]

Pedestrian underpinnings? What? MagnaRide and HiPer strut doesn't cut it anymore> Dear lord, this vehicle is a techno tour-de-force and all you people can do is decry that it is FWD and the engine is somehow inferior to the competition when it clearly isn't.

[Camino LS6]

Pedestrian underpinnings? What? MagnaRide and HiPer strut doesn't cut it anymore> Dear lord, this vehicle is a techno tour-de-force and all you people can do is decry that it is FWD and the engine is somehow inferior to the competition when it clearly isn't.

I refer to it's EPII foundation, not the dirty bits it steals from the real Cadillacs.

[Robert Hall]

I refer to it's EPII foundation, not the dirty bits it steals from the real Cadillacs.

<elitist rant>

Exactly...it may have some high tech parts, but at the core it has mainstream FWD appliance underpinings which are innapropriate for a brand w/ premium aspirations. Transverse engine w/ FWD is the very definition of mediocrity, averageness, bland... all that is anthema to premium, luxury, etc.

It's enough to compete w/ such weak entry-lux models as the ES and MKS, but such mediocrity isn't enough to compete in the big leagues. It's a weak, predicable effort. Cadillac needs to aim higher...

</elitist rant>

Edited November 19, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

I refer to it's EPII foundation, not the dirty bits it steals from the real Cadillacs.

Exactly...it may have some high tech parts, but at the core it has mainstream FWD appliance underpinings which are innapropriate for a brand w/ premium aspirations. Transverse engine w/ FWD is the very definition of mediocrity, averageness, bland... all that is anthema to premium, luxury, etc. It's enough to compete w/ such weak entry-lux models as the ES and MKS, but such mediocrity isn't enough to compete in the big leagues. It's a weak, predicable effort. Cadillac needs to aim higher...

Precisely!

If you love the tech, that's just fine. But it doesn't say anything about the XTS' intrinsic value as a car. In that sense, it is just fluff that could be added to any car.

This car, like that nasty thing I posted earlier, is Cadillac by committee. And that committee just phoned this one in.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Camino LS6

[Camino LS6]

Something like this would have had me cheering:

[Camino LS6]

And GM had the design chops to pull it off too. This was contemporary to the XTS showcar:

[Bimmer325]

The argument that "there is a market for this car" and "not everyone wants a CTS-V" is not valid IMO. I'm sure there is a market for this car, and GM has Buick to cater to it. Cadillac should be focusing on aligning itself with tier-one brands if it wants to be considered a world standard.

And 'Pervez,' calling the XTS' infotainment system "the Apple iOS of the industry" is premature. Everything we know about CUE at this point has come from Cadillac's PR team.

Every brand in this segment puts out highly advanced technology. We don't know yet how CUE will stack up against Audi's MMI, BMW's iDrive, etc. Ford and Lincoln's MyTouch is touch-capacitive like CUE and has been met with universally negative critical reception. Let's hope Cadillac's execution is far better than Ford's.

[67impss]

I assume one reason the Epsilon II cars are narrow is that it is a global platform. I don't really care for the tall and narrow design trait of so many cars today, I prefer lower-longer-wider.

This!

[smk4565]

It's enough to compete w/ such weak entry-lux models as the ES and MKS, but such mediocrity isn't enough to compete in the big leagues. It's a weak, predicable effort. Cadillac needs to aim higher...

</elitist rant>

Agreed. Especially when Cadillac is not a luxury leader, they sort of far back in the pack globally. If they want to move up the ladder they need to aim way higher.

And at least the 1989 Deville had a V8, not the engine from a Chevy Impala.

[67impss]

Rt the Small Block was light years better than the HT4100 Power Reliability MPG NVH ...

[smk4565]

The argument that "there is a market for this car" and "not everyone wants a CTS-V" is not valid IMO. I'm sure there is a market for this car, and GM has Buick to cater to it. Cadillac should be focusing on aligning itself with tier-one brands if it wants to be considered a world standard.

And 'Pervez,' calling the XTS' infotainment system "the Apple iOS of the industry" is premature. Everything we know about CUE at this point has come from Cadillac's PR team.

Every brand in this segment puts out highly advanced technology. We don't know yet how CUE will stack up against Audi's MMI, BMW's iDrive, etc. Ford and Lincoln's MyTouch is touch-capacitive like CUE and has been met with universally negative critical reception. Let's hope Cadillac's execution is far better than Ford's.

I would agree. A lot of thee iDrive copies are similar, even cars like the Focus have systems like it, and I don't know if any particular one is good enough to sway a car buying decision. Cadillac should focus on tier one brands, even Cadillac said that is what they want to be, so they need to put their money where their mouth is.

I disagree a little on whether there is a market for this car, there still is, but I think it is quickly diminishing. This flavor of car works under $40k, the Lexus ES, Avalon, LaCrosse, etc sell in decent volume. However, the MKS sells worse, the Acura RL even worse still, because no one wants to pay $50k for an Accord. I think $50k for a Malibu/Impala/LaCrosse is a tough sell also.

[smk4565]

Pedestrian underpinnings? What? MagnaRide and HiPer strut doesn't cut it anymore> Dear lord, this vehicle is a techno tour-de-force and all you people can do is decry that it is FWD and the engine is somehow inferior to the competition when it clearly isn't.

Does it have voice commands, park itself, have self closing doors, self closing trunk, Split-view Nav screen, 1000+ watt 7.1 surround sound, does it detect sleepiness from the driver, tell you what the speed limit is, adjustable ride height, adjustable suspension settings, adjustable throttle settings, adjustable transmission settings, adjustable steering effort, LED headlights, night vision, refrigerated glove box or rear refrigerator, power reclining, massaging, heated and cooled seats at all 4 positions, HVAC that works while the car is off via solar power, double pane windows, can you set how many seconds the light over the license plate stays on after the ignition is turned off, 8-speed transmission, V8, aluminum or carbon fiber chassis and body, etc.

This car is far from a technological tour de force, it is competitive with a Lexus ES or even GS (which is dated) and a Lincoln MKS or an Acura, but this is far from S-class level technology.

[balthazar]

That's why Malibus Impalas & LaCrosses don't sell for those numbers.

What many fail to realize is that the vast bulk of luxury buyers don't give a flying F what wheels drive or that a $90K mercedes shares the same platform with a $45K one. Again I must remind you, 75% of 1-series BMW OWNERS believe their car is FWD. The idea that these unseen things are prime factors in the purchase of a luxury car is just laughable. mercedees are purchased because the buyers believe it'll impress their neighbors; THAT'S a prime factor, not if the 'platform' is shared with another car or not. The vast majority of buyers don't know & don't care about technical details or have any idea what a 'platform' even is.

Enthusiasts are a tiny percentage of luxury car buyers, the rest want flash & gimmicks & bragging rights & a badge.

In other words, no appreciable percentage of XTS consumers are going to believe an XTS has anything to do with a Malibu (despite sharing a few unseen stampings) because everything they can see & touch bears no similarity whatsoever... as opposed to the 75% of 1-series BMW OWNERS that believe their car is FWD (which it ISN'T, and they supposedly should be able to tell this by just driving this self-proclaimed 'superior driving experience' vehicle down their own driveway).

Who has the larger problem to overcome??

• • •

Ironically, all those gimmicky electronics in the s-class are likely to INDUCE sleepiness in the driver, since he has so little left to do for himself.

Self-closing doors is aspirational 'technology' ?? These are not auto enthusiasts who crave RWD handling & horsepower, but 'all you can eat' & Lazy-Boys.

Edited November 20, 2011 by balthazar

[Blake Noble]

You know what? I want to see the definitive proof that all of these luxury car buyers don't know what wheels drive their car.

Sure, people who buy cars like this have money to burn, but my gut tells me that they would much rather burn it with fine aged liquor than Ronsonol.

And GM had the design chops to pull it off too. This was contemporary to the XTS showcar:

The XTS showcar, for that matter, was a far cleaner and much more handsome design than what GM is going to build for production.

[balthazar]

You know what? I want to see the definitive proof that all of these luxury car buyers don't know what wheels drive their car.

Here you go (and note I had the percentage too low) :

>>"...for the large majority of new car buyers it would appear that it doesn’t matter which wheels are doing the driving..."<<

[Blake Noble]

You know what? I want to see the definitive proof that all of these luxury car buyers don't know what wheels drive their car.

Here you go (and note I had the percentage too low) :

>>"...for the large majority of new car buyers it would appear that it doesn’t matter which wheels are doing the driving..."<<

Whoa ... I'm going to put the brakes on this one, right now.

Let me put this bluntly: that's not evidence that I would profile an entire audience of car buyers with.

Am I going to sit here and dispute that a BMW CEO said that the results from a corporately sponsored survey for 1-Series buyers showed that most people who buy a BMW 1-Series are completely oblivious as to what wheels make their car go forward and sometimes backward? Not at all. I can believe with confidence it's a fact.

However, in the context of the article you linked to, the phrase you quoted is little more than one part opinion, one part ignorance, one part exaggeration, and one part hyperbole. It's far from a concrete fact, to say the least.

Actually, when you begin to do a little peeling away, it's a textbook example of bad journalism. If you read the exact same news story over at Motor Trend or World Car Fans, you don't see them lumping other luxury car buyers (and all other new car buyers, for that matter) in with 1-Series buyers in their respective articles. Motor Authority was the only outlet to make that statement. Hmmm ... hear that? That's the sound of something spinning, and it's not the wheels on a 1-Series BMW either.

So, to be blunt once again and to get back to the main issue at hand, you simply cannot profile an entire group of buyers with one very isolated example of data like that. That's one car from one automaker who, as of this very day in 2011, builds 15 different cars not including the 1'er, Mini's model range, a couple of Rolls Royces, and some motorcycles.

So how about guys who bought a 3'er or a 5'er? Those are also BMWs. Were those buyers just as oblivious as the buyers of the 1'er? Reaching further, how about folks who went out and bought an E-Class? How about all of those rich dudes who fell in love with a CTS? How about that billionaire who blew a wad of dough on a Bentley? That data you provided me is far from being that encompassing, sorry, and if that's what this whole notion around here that "luxury/new car buyers are too damn dumb to tell what wheels drive their car" started from ... well, you all had best regroup and think of another approach to support your argument.

By the way, sorry if I came off harsh.

Edited November 20, 2011 by black-knight

[hyperv6]

Pedestrian underpinnings? What? MagnaRide and HiPer strut doesn't cut it anymore> Dear lord, this vehicle is a techno tour-de-force and all you people can do is decry that it is FWD and the engine is somehow inferior to the competition when it clearly isn't.

Keep in mind too that these are the same people for years who had no problem with the rebadged Chevys as Pontiac's and cried when they lost them. Thought the Pontiac did get changes like red dash lights and ribs to set them appart.They clearly not consistant.

What we all need to understand is Cadillac for a while will still share platforms with the rest of GM. As long as the build into them systems that the others do not cary it should not be a problem.. Now if all they offer is the same systems as Buick then I would agree it would be an issue. I don't see Buick getting much of this till Cadillac has moved on.

Even Bently shares the W motor with others today. It is just a part of life. Besides as it is sizing up the V6 is not shared with many cars anymore.

[Camino LS6]

It isn't the fact of sharing, it's what they shared.

[balthazar]

Whoa ... I'm going to put the brakes on this one, right now. Let me put this bluntly: that's not evidence that I would profile an entire audience of car buyers with.

Am I going to sit here and dispute that a BMW CEO said that the results from a corporately sponsored survey for 1-Series buyers showed that most people who buy a BMW 1-Series are completely oblivious as to what wheels make their car go forward and sometimes backward? Not at all. I can believe with confidence it's a fact.

However, in the context of the article you linked to, the phrase you quoted is little more than one part opinion, one part ignorance, one part exaggeration, and one part hyperbole. It's far from a concrete fact, to say the least.

Actually, when you begin to do a little peeling away, it's a textbook example of bad journalism. If you read the exact same news story over at Motor Trend or World Car Fans, you don't see them lumping other luxury car buyers (and all other new car buyers, for that matter) in with 1-Series buyers in their respective articles. Motor Authority was the only outlet to make that statement. Hmmm ... hear that? That's the sound of something spinning, and it's not the wheels on a 1-Series BMW either.

So, to be blunt once again and to get back to the main issue at hand, you simply cannot profile an entire group of buyers with one very isolated example of data like that. That's one car from one automaker who, as of this very day in 2011, builds 15 different cars not including the 1'er, Mini's model range, a couple of Rolls Royces, and some motorcycles.

So how about guys who bought a 3'er or a 5'er? Those are also BMWs. Were those buyers just as oblivious as the buyers of the 1'er? Reaching further, how about folks who went out and bought an E-Class? How about all of those rich dudes who fell in love with a CTS? How about that billionaire who blew a wad of dough on a Bentley? That data you provided me is far from being that encompassing, sorry, and if that's what this whole notion around here that "luxury/new car buyers are too damn dumb to tell what wheels drive their car" started from ... well, you all had best regroup and think of another approach to support your argument.

By the way, sorry if I came off harsh.

To address BMW by itself; I agree that doing a straight extrapolation of this data to other models or brands is NOT factual... with such a staggeringly high percentage, there is no question SOME percentage of 3-series buyers believe their car is FWD too (maybe some percentage of 5-series buyers). There is nothing physically apparent between the 1-series & 3-series that telegraphs which wheels drive (as opposed -say- to a comparison of a mini & a 3-series, where even the most non-enthusiast would take a perceptual pause). Do some 3- and 5- buyers think their car is FWD? Of course some do. I would bet you money some 7- buyers think their car is FWD, too. How many is open to wild guesswork until someone does a comprehensive survey (Guaranteed BMW is not setting aside money to poll this... or if they are, the results will never see the light of day).

In that BMW's marketing has spent at least the last 30 years continually pushing the 'machine-oriented, corner-carving, tech-enhanced superiority' of BMWs in general, and that this is not a survey of consumers at large but of BMW owners of said car.... IMO, SOME degree of this ignorance can absolutely be attributed to consumers of other models/brands. How much, for which cars has not been surveyed. I am not taking face value acceptance this is true in general because the article breezily stated such, but because of human nature and general observation.

BTW : >>"corporately sponsored survey"<< usually is used when it's suspected/claimed that the Corp involvment is influencing the results in a favorable manner. If that was true in this instance, the true results might be that 95% of 1-series buyers believe their cars are FWD. In other words, even tho Corp-sponsored, the results here were massively unfavorable to the image BMW pushes.

My siting the survey is only to illustrate that singular factors such as which wheels drive are NOT the prime directors for a HUGE swath of the car buying public.

It's the same as saying 'the CTS is too long to compete with the 3-series', like all buyers primarily shop via overall length in rigid 6" class segments. The factor is just not that significant or tangible in real life. For a huge quantity, the same is the case for drive wheels. Not everyone obviously, but a LOT. Enthusiasts focus on specs because that's how we 'compete' vicariously with vehicles.

Car buying for 99% of the public (my guess) is far more complex than 'I'll buy whichever car has a power glove box.' It's my observation that drive wheels is NOT in the top 10% of factors overall. If it were, I would look at mercedes & BMW absolutely refusing to build FWD models as support of that (esp in light of their marketing perception)... but that's not the case.

Edited November 20, 2011 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

You know what? I want to see the definitive proof that all of these luxury car buyers don't know what wheels drive their car.

Sure, people who buy cars like this have money to burn, but my gut tells me that they would much rather burn it with fine aged liquor than Ronsonol.

In my area, most of these luxury cars get purchased with AWD. Once that decision is made, then the RWD v. FWD thing is moot in people's minds. They have no idea about front bias or rear bias... they just see "AWD" and they're off.

In the mind of a non-foamer, an AWD BMW 5-series is the equal to an AWD CTS or XTS or 300c or A6 or E-Class for that feature. Full stop. End of argument for them when comparison shopping.

[Drew Dowdell]

The biggest factor in car sales in the luxury brands is "I like the way it looks".

[Justin Bimmer]

The biggest factor in car sales in the luxury brands is "I like the way it looks".

This.

My Buick is a puller. You would never know unless you did. The car doesn't give it away.

[hyperv6]

With time and each new generation the needs for large V8 engines and RWD has not been a must factor with many buyers.

Many in todays market grew up in 4 cylinder FWD Honda and never rode in or drove anything else.Many in the new generation are more interested in the on board electronics than they are size of the engine or what wheels pull. The market is evolving and changing. While there is still a must need to offer a RWD V8 at Cadillac it is not the only car that needs to be offered. Even today BMW and Benz are now looking to change their RWD only formulas.

With this car the only way to settle this argument is to let the market decide. Just as the argument over the old vs new SRX the market has spoken.

As for AWD even here in the snow belt we have them but not in great numbers. If Cadillac could offer this at a resonable price we may see more of them here. The nice thing is they at least went to one of the best systems in the world and that will make a big difference in how the car will perform and drive. It will only be a bonus to the car to offer this system.

[hyperv6]

And GM had the design chops to pull it off too. This was contemporary to the XTS showcar:

Now see this would appeal to me but not to those who the XTS are targeted at. I would rather see this kind of design also offered to take in more sales from both segments.

[smk4565]

If front wheel drive and corporate platforms are good enough for the most expensive Cadillac sedan, then why not make the CTS off the Malibu platform, and the ATS off the Cruze platform. Where does it stop. If Cadillac replaced the current CTS with a car built on the Regal/Malibu platform and gave it a turbo 4, everyone would cry bloody murder. Yet when Cadillac makes their top end sedan with that formula, people defend it. I don't get it.

[Robert Hall]

If front wheel drive and corporate platforms are good enough for the most expensive Cadillac sedan, then why not make the CTS off the Malibu platform, and the ATS off the Cruze platform. Where does it stop. If Cadillac replaced the current CTS with a car built on the Regal/Malibu platform and gave it a turbo 4, everyone would cry bloody murder. Yet when Cadillac makes their top end sedan with that formula, people defend it. I don't get it.

I don't get it either... I guess they've been brainwashed by 30 years of FWD mediocrity that Detroit embraced.

[SAmadei]

Maybe its getting all wheel drive AND all wheel steering.

AWS is a gimick I would not expect to see repeated soon on any car.

Apparently, your sarcasm detector is not working today.

[hyperv6]

If front wheel drive and corporate platforms are good enough for the most expensive Cadillac sedan, then why not make the CTS off the Malibu platform, and the ATS off the Cruze platform. Where does it stop. If Cadillac replaced the current CTS with a car built on the Regal/Malibu platform and gave it a turbo 4, everyone would cry bloody murder. Yet when Cadillac makes their top end sedan with that formula, people defend it. I don't get it.

Who says this is their top sedan. With a coming flag ship and a new larger CTS the XTS is just a volume Luxury sedan like the Lexus ES 350.

I defend it for what it is and not make it more than it is. You on the other hand I think are placing this car much higher in the line up than Cadillac. The Car you crave is yet to come and was not started till after GM got the new money.

The fact is GM could not offer the Lacrosse with many of the features on this car and still get anyone to pay the price they would have to ask. They did not offer the Haldex AWD on the Regal because it would have taken the already expensive GS to the level even the die hard fans would have a hard time paying that amount.

The new ATS is based on the same platform used for the Camaro too? Does that cheapen the ATS because it is used with a lesser Chevy?

Edited November 20, 2011 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

If front wheel drive and corporate platforms are good enough for the most expensive Cadillac sedan, then why not make the CTS off the Malibu platform, and the ATS off the Cruze platform. Where does it stop. If Cadillac replaced the current CTS with a car built on the Regal/Malibu platform and gave it a turbo 4, everyone would cry bloody murder. Yet when Cadillac makes their top end sedan with that formula, people defend it. I don't get it.

Who says this is their top sedan. With a coming flag ship and a new larger CTS the XTS is just a volume Luxury sedan like the Lexus ES 350.

For the time being, it is the top sedan. Nothing else has been announced. Any other flagship is just a rumor at this time. Isn't the LaCrosse the volume luxury sedan that should be competing w/ the ES? That was the Buick marketing angle a while back IIRC..

Now a proper flagship model in the style of Ciel would be an interesting direction...

Edited November 20, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

Who says this is their top sedan. With a coming flag ship and a new larger CTS the XTS is just a volume Luxury sedan like the Lexus ES 350.

I defend it for what it is and not make it more than it is. You on the other hand I think are placing this car much higher in the line up than Cadillac. The Car you crave is yet to come and was not started till after GM got the new money.

The new ATS is based on the same platform used for the Camaro too? Does that cheapen the ATS because it is used with a lesser Chevy?

The XTS will be more expensive than an ATS or CTS, so for the foreseeable future it is their top sedan.

The ATS chassis doesn't exist on any car currently for sale. It it new, and the Camaro will be based off the ATS. That I am fine with, the Camaro is a sports car, they should base it off a sporty platform. And the Camaro will have a basic interior, it won't be at all similar to the Cadillac. I was fine with the XLR and Corvette platform sharing, I thought the XLR was a great looking car too, the interior and performance just fell short of the price tag.

[smk4565]

For the time being, it is the top sedan. Nothing else has been announced. Any other flagship is just a rumor at this time. Isn't the LaCrosse the volume luxury sedan that should be competing w/ the ES? That was the Buick marketing angle a while back IIRC..

Now a proper flagship model in the style of Ciel would be an interesting direction...

That was the marketing angle of the Lacrosse at the time, but my belief was always that the LaCrosse competed with the Avalon, Taurus, Chrysler 300, maybe Maxima and Azera. I never saw Buick as a Lexus competitor, the ES350 bases higher than a CTS, the LaCrosse upon debut based around $26 or 27,000.

[balthazar]

The ATS chassis doesn't exist on any car currently for sale. It it new, and the Camaro will be based off the ATS. That I am fine with, the Camaro is a sports car, they should base it off a sporty platform. And the Camaro will have a basic interior, it won't be at all similar to the Cadillac.

That's the same scenario with the LaCrosse & the XTS; not at all similar.

[smk4565]

The ATS chassis doesn't exist on any car currently for sale. It it new, and the Camaro will be based off the ATS. That I am fine with, the Camaro is a sports car, they should base it off a sporty platform. And the Camaro will have a basic interior, it won't be at all similar to the Cadillac.

That's the same scenario with the LaCrosse & the XTS; not at all similar.

It isn't the same, because the Camaro will be able to have acceleration and handling like a 3-series or G37 so it should match up well against a Mustang, Genesis Coupe, 370Z etc. The platform won't limit the Camaro's performance. The XTS can't handle like other luxury sedans with the same price point. And the LaCrosse has a lot of the features that the XTS has, the Impala has the same engine/transmission. The DTS is a sales dog, and Cadillac just rebuilt the same car on a different platform. Weak effort.

Edited November 21, 2011 by smk4565

[z28luvr01]

For what it is, the XTS is a decent car. I'm not as disgusted by it's FWD-ness as I am with the SRX, because it has a pretty decent stance/proportions for a front-driver. I still see the XTS as 1) a Fritz car that was too far along to be stopped and 2) a transitional vehicle for Caddy that could serve to wean the population off of a DTS-like vehicle. Some of the blue-hairs that like the more sedate DTS styling might take their business over to Lexus because Art & Science is too much for them.

The XTS will do well for a couple of years at least, and that could be what Caddy needs to get its flagship ready.

[Bimmer325]

If people buy 7ers and S-Class' as status symbols and nothing else, GOOD FOR BMW AND MERCEDES. Decades of consistent engineering, design and branding gets you somewhere after all.

The fact that brands like BMW and MB can attract buyers on name alone is a GREAT thing and might have something to do with years and years of consistency. Yet somehow this is reduced to dumb luxury car buyers with more money than brains who don't know or care what wheels drive their car. How could it possibly be perceived as a bad thing that a brand has reached the level of being an aspirational product?

Cadillac might want to think about positioning itself as a marque these mindless idiots will spend their money on based on name alone.

[hyperv6]

Who says this is their top sedan. With a coming flag ship and a new larger CTS the XTS is just a volume Luxury sedan like the Lexus ES 350.

I defend it for what it is and not make it more than it is. You on the other hand I think are placing this car much higher in the line up than Cadillac. The Car you crave is yet to come and was not started till after GM got the new money.

The new ATS is based on the same platform used for the Camaro too? Does that cheapen the ATS because it is used with a lesser Chevy?

The XTS will be more expensive than an ATS or CTS, so for the foreseeable future it is their top sedan.

The ATS chassis doesn't exist on any car currently for sale. It it new, and the Camaro will be based off the ATS. That I am fine with, the Camaro is a sports car, they should base it off a sporty platform. And the Camaro will have a basic interior, it won't be at all similar to the Cadillac. I was fine with the XLR and Corvette platform sharing, I thought the XLR was a great looking car too, the interior and performance just fell short of the price tag.

How can I argue with a aman with double standards?

As for price and future it is not the flag ship no matter what. Also how do you know on price? I really don't see this car passing the CTS V in price. That right now is as close to a flag ship as they have.

[Camino LS6]

XTS is a bean-counter's car - plain and simple.

They probably were wetting themselves at the prospect of replacing two cars with one.

Especially when a mass-market chassis would be the base.

This is Fritz's finest parts-bin special.

[Drew Dowdell]

If front wheel drive and corporate platforms are good enough for the most expensive Cadillac sedan, then why not make the CTS off the Malibu platform, and the ATS off the Cruze platform. Where does it stop. If Cadillac replaced the current CTS with a car built on the Regal/Malibu platform and gave it a turbo 4, everyone would cry bloody murder. Yet when Cadillac makes their top end sedan with that formula, people defend it. I don't get it.

This isn't Cadillac's top end sedan. This is Cadillac's largest sedan. Cadillac's top end car has not been it's largest car since at least 1967.

Going backwards chronologically:

CTS-V

STS-V/XLR-V

STS

Allante

Seville/Eldorado

Eldorado

The Deville and Fleetwood haven't been Cadillac's flagship for decades.... RWD or not. In fact, Cadillac's flagships were front wheel drive from 1967 till 2004.

[Drew Dowdell]

The ATS chassis doesn't exist on any car currently for sale. It it new, and the Camaro will be based off the ATS. That I am fine with, the Camaro is a sports car, they should base it off a sporty platform. And the Camaro will have a basic interior, it won't be at all similar to the Cadillac.

That's the same scenario with the LaCrosse & the XTS; not at all similar.

It isn't the same, because the Camaro will be able to have acceleration and handling like a 3-series or G37 so it should match up well against a Mustang, Genesis Coupe, 370Z etc. The platform won't limit the Camaro's performance. The XTS can't handle like other luxury sedans with the same price point. And the LaCrosse has a lot of the features that the XTS has, the Impala has the same engine/transmission. The DTS is a sales dog, and Cadillac just rebuilt the same car on a different platform. Weak effort.

You've driven an XTS already? Care to share pics and do a writeup?

You have NO bloody idea what the car handles like. GM was able to get a Cobalt SS to out handle a 3-series and the XTS is FAR more technologically advanced than a Cobalt.

You've gotten in trouble for making assertions you couldn't possibly back up before. Don't start down that path again.

[Robert Hall]

GM was able to get a Cobalt SS to out handle a 3-series and the XTS is FAR more technologically advanced than a Cobalt.

Does anyone really believe that, though? I've always assumed they faked those numbers...and it's still just a Cobalt..

[Drew Dowdell]

there is video I believe. the point isn't what the cobalt "is", Nicer dash materials don't change handling characteristics.

[Z-06]

That is one of the most ignorant comments, up there with some of the others' comments who are known to make such. If such is the case then there is no reason to believe any numbers for any cars about lap times on the Ring.

See the comparisons for the car; Car and Driver had it third - when it had better numbers than most - reason Interior. Road and Track had it first when despite lack a LSD it outperformed all. In Car and Driver's lightning lap it even decimated RWD Lexus IS-F, 135i, AWD Evo MR. I have driven one and other than its cheap interiors, the car will makes expensive cars run wimpy and naked when you push it in the corners. Too bad GM made the recipe evaporate.

[Camino LS6]

there is video I believe. the point isn't what the cobalt "is", Nicer dash materials don't change handling characteristics.

This is, of course, correct.

"Faking" such a thing isn't really possible.

[smk4565]

The base price of the XTS will be more than the base price on any other Cadillac sedan. That is what I meant by it will be their top end (or most expensive) car. My guess is the XTS V6 is $10,000 more than a CTS V6.

[Robert Hall]

there is video I believe. the point isn't what the cobalt "is", Nicer dash materials don't change handling characteristics.

This is, of course, correct.

"Faking" such a thing isn't really possible.

Video can be edited... anyway, it's a moot point since the Cobalt is defunct...no one cares.