A Trip to The Phantom Planet: 1983 Pontiac GTO

[Blake Noble]

From posts I've read here in the past, I think I would be safe to assume that a lot of guys here like phantom builds, myself included. It's probably one of the better by-products the scales of automotive economy of the '70s and '80s gave us -- take one unassuming '80s ElCamino and throw some Pontiac Grand Am sheetmetal over it and -- presto! -- your GrandCamino ST awaits you.

Well, I stumbled upon an ad on Craigslist today where a guy out in Lawrenceburg is selling an '83 Regal and an '83 Grand Prix for $900 each. He says they're easy resto projects. Despite how much I doubt this, I wouldn't mind having the Grand Prix as the basis for a phantom project of my own: build an '80s GTO.

It's a fairly simple recipe that I'm very surprised no one has attempted yet: take one '80s Grand Prix and add the nose cone from the 2+2 model and the rear spoiler from the Monte SS. Paint it in a low profile color like gloss black, add some custom, tastefully designed graphics and a few GTO badges, and throw some sort of Pontiac small block V8 under the hood. Feeling like you might need to additional spice? Hook that SBP to a manual transmision. To spruce up the interior just bolt some nice, period correct leather seats to the floor and slap a Pontiac Formula steering wheel on the column.

It's a car that I'm really surprised GM itself didn't try to build in some form back in those days, considering the popularity of the MC/SS and the G-Body 442.

I know I currently have other priorities right now, but it's a project that I can't quite shake out of my mind.

I have a good TH350 that's designed to mate up to a SBP out in the storage building and ... mmmm ... need to think about other things ...

Edited November 12, 2011 by black-knight

[SAmadei]

It's a fairly simple recipe that I'm very surprised no one has attempted yet: take one '80s Grand Prix and add the nose cone from the 2+2 model and the rear spoiler from the Monte SS. Paint it in a low profile color like gloss black, add some custom, tastefully designed graphics and a few GTO badges, and throw some sort of Pontiac small block V8 under the hood. Feeling like you might need to additional spice? Hook that SBP to a manual transmision. To spruce up the interior just bolt some nice, period correct leather seats to the floor and slap a Pontiac Formula steering wheel on the column.

There is no such thing as a SBP. There are low deck Pontiacs... the 301 and 265... but those are, for all purposes, garbage. There are also small journal (326, 350, 389, 400, etc.) and large journal Pontiacs (421, 428, 455)... but for the most part, all Pontiac engines are the same size externally... so there is no SBP. There is controversy over the oiling on the large journal engines, so in many cases, the best combo for someone looking for a non-concours, modern setup is a 400 block with a cut down forged 455 crank... giving you 455 inches without the alleged oiling problems of the 455.

For your project, I would also suggest some minor modification of the rear window area to give more of a flying buttress look... like the '67 GTO.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that the 2+2 front end on a Grand Prix makes for a GTO. The notchback look that made the '80s muscle look work is fine for the Regal, Monte, Grand Prix and Cutlass, as the latter three of these that existed in the '60s all had more formal, notchback rear window treatments compared to the contemporary A-body... the GTO didn't. The GTO started off kinda notchback, but was never as upright as the '80s cars... for the bulk of the GTO's life, it was a more curvaceous setup. For this reason, I would make an '80s GTO out of a Lemans coupe... with a modified 2+2 clip and a '69 GTO rear spoiler.

Because the CanAm was nearly a '76/'77 GTO, I get the feeling that GM would have put rear window louvers on a '80s GTO somehow.

Just my 2 cents.

I have a good TH350 that's designed to mate up to a SBP out in the storage building and ... mmmm ... need to think about other things ...

Nah. you want a Art Carr (or other notable 200-4r rebuilder) prepped 200-4r... the 200-4r has a undeserved bad rap... but it works well in Pontiac retrofits... and remember... the 200-4r is the tranny the Buick GNX used.

[ocnblu]

Sounds like we already have two versions of an 80's GTO, and both sound worthy. I'd love to see a project thread on something like this... too bad a lot of us are rich with dreams and poor with cash.

[Camino LS6]

Now why didn't I think of this one?

Great phantom idea!

[Blake Noble]

There is no such thing as a SBP. There are low deck Pontiacs... the 301 and 265... but those are, for all purposes, garbage. There are also small journal (326, 350, 389, 400, etc.) and large journal Pontiacs (421, 428, 455)... but for the most part, all Pontiac engines are the same size externally... so there is no SBP. There is controversy over the oiling on the large journal engines, so in many cases, the best combo for someone looking for a non-concours, modern setup is a 400 block with a cut down forged 455 crank... giving you 455 inches without the alleged oiling problems of the 455.

Granted, my terminology was incorrect so I probably should have said "smaller displacement" instead of "small block".

I honestly think a Pontiac 350 would be enough motor for the job here. Sure, a 400 or 455 would be nice but I really think it would be overkill in a car like the Grand Prix.

My '84 Regal had an Olds Rocket 350 in it when I first had it and that was plenty of motor to make that car fast and burnout-friendly. Granted the Rocket and Pontiac 350s are different motors, but I don't see the end result being all that different.

For your project, I would also suggest some minor modification of the rear window area to give more of a flying buttress look... like the '67 GTO.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that the 2+2 front end on a Grand Prix makes for a GTO. The notchback look that made the '80s muscle look work is fine for the Regal, Monte, Grand Prix and Cutlass, as the latter three of these that existed in the '60s all had more formal, notchback rear window treatments compared to the contemporary A-body... the GTO didn't. The GTO started off kinda notchback, but was never as upright as the '80s cars... for the bulk of the GTO's life, it was a more curvaceous setup. For this reason, I would make an '80s GTO out of a Lemans coupe... with a modified 2+2 clip and a '69 GTO rear spoiler.

Because the CanAm was nearly a '76/'77 GTO, I get the feeling that GM would have put rear window louvers on a '80s GTO somehow.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, this is meant to be done on a shoestring budget, so modifying the rear-most part of the roofline is out of the picture.

Additionally, regarding the 442, it never used the Supreme bodyshell with its formal roofline. Sure, there are plenty of guys who used Supremes to form the basis of a 442 clone, but it's incorrect (the end result would actually be an SX). Actually the Cutlass Holiday coupes, which served as the foundation of the 442, probably had the roundest glasshouse and roofline of any of the A-Body cars.

Nah. you want a Art Carr (or other notable 200-4r rebuilder) prepped 200-4r... the 200-4r has a undeserved bad rap... but it works well in Pontiac retrofits... and remember... the 200-4r is the tranny the Buick GNX used.

Well, I would be saving more than a buck or two by using the TH350 I already have, at least initially.

Edited November 12, 2011 by black-knight

[ocnblu]

Ah, but grasshopper, there were 442s built on the Supreme bodyshell.

[Blake Noble]

Ah, but grasshopper, there were 442s built on the Supreme bodyshell.

Coupes? No. The 442 coupes always used the F-85 post coupes and Holiday hardtop coupes as a base. For '66 or '67 the level of content was based around what items you would get with the Supreme package but all Supreme cars built during the timeframe we're talking about in this thread (1964 to 1972) were ineligible for the 442 package.

Techincally the convertibles were Supreme bodyshell-based I guess, but they don't count because ... well, you know.

The performance option for the notchback '70 to '72 Supremes was the SX.

Here's a site for reference: Link

The G-Body coupes aren't included here.

Edited November 13, 2011 by black-knight

[SAmadei]

I honestly think a Pontiac 350 would be enough motor for the job here. Sure, a 400 or 455 would be nice but I really think it would be overkill in a car like the Grand Prix.

My '84 Regal had an Olds Rocket 350 in it when I first had it and that was plenty of motor to make that car fast and burnout-friendly. Granted the Rocket and Pontiac 350s are different motors, but I don't see the end result being all that different.

Take it from a Pontiac guy, the 400 is enough of a upgrade over the 350 that you need to get it. The 400 was generally more common and either would cost nearly the same today at the junkyard.

Nah. you want a Art Carr (or other notable 200-4r rebuilder) prepped 200-4r... the 200-4r has a undeserved bad rap... but it works well in Pontiac retrofits... and remember... the 200-4r is the tranny the Buick GNX used.

Well, I would be saving more than a buck or two by using the TH350 I already have, at least initially.

Save a buck initially, cost a fortune in the end. The 3 speeds in some of my parked cars are whats keeping me from driving them...

I realize this is a budget project you are tossing about, but a 2+2 nose on a GP with a little spoiler would still look like a GP, not a GTO. We have to keep your GTO phantom project from turning into a typical ricer "Type-R" "upgrade". ;-)

[Blake Noble]

Take it from a Pontiac guy, the 400 is enough of a upgrade over the 350 that you need to get it. The 400 was generally more common and either would cost nearly the same today at the junkyard.

Hmmmm ...

Save a buck initially, cost a fortune in the end. The 3 speeds in some of my parked cars are whats keeping me from driving them.

The TH350 that was in the Cutlass did great for an old 3-speed, I thought. Plus, it's not like anyone's lining up to buy it from me when I try to sell it through Craigslist. The TH350 I have left was pretty much a freshly rebuilt transmission when I pulled it from the Regal. It's sort of a waste to let it sit.

If I go through with this project in the near future, though, some sort of transmission will be on the upgrade list ...

I realize this is a budget project you are tossing about, but a 2+2 nose on a GP with a little spoiler would still look like a GP, not a GTO. We have to keep your GTO phantom project from turning into a typical ricer "Type-R" "upgrade". ;-)

Ricey? I disagree. The original GTOs were basically just a powerful engine, a different front fascia, and a spoiler bolted up to a LeMans.

Okay, I forgot about the hoods being different as well ...

I think I'm trying to hold true to the spirit of the GTOs of the '60s and '70s. I also think what I have cooked up would be close to what GM would've actually built in the mid '80s ... if they had really cared about Pontiac anyhow.

Edited November 13, 2011 by black-knight

[SAmadei]

I realize this is a budget project you are tossing about, but a 2+2 nose on a GP with a little spoiler would still look like a GP, not a GTO. We have to keep your GTO phantom project from turning into a typical ricer "Type-R" "upgrade". ;-)

Ricey? I disagree.

I'm not meaning ricey, like ricey... I'm simply comparing it to Civic guys that put a fart pipe on and Type-R stickers and consider that an upgrade. Or the people who convert their '94-'06 GTOs back into Holden Monaros. I think a Phantom project needs a bit more effort.

The original GTOs were basically just a powerful engine, a different front fascia, and a spoiler bolted up to a LeMans.

Okay, I forgot about the hoods being different as well ...

I think I'm trying to hold true to the spirit of the GTOs of the '60s and '70s. I also think what I have cooked up would be close to what GM would've actually built in the mid '80s ... if they had really cared about Pontiac anyhow.

Well, a LeMans is a LeMans... and not a Grand Prix. Granted, the W-body Grand Prix did eventually replace the LeMans indirectly, through the 6000.

Anyway, that's a big part of why the GTO did not come back until 2004... Pontiac did not deem any platform to be GTO quality. This is a lot different than the other brands that whored the 442, SS or GS badges onto anything that fell off the assembly line.

Anyway, my gripe with the use of the GP is all in the formal roofline, which is totally out of character with the GTO. In fact, I would suggest that one could make a phantom GTO out of a '97-'03 GP, by converting it to RWD... adding a '69 style spoiler, and a Ram Air hood. That roofline works with the GTO DNA a bit better.

If GM was going to offer a '80s GTO, I think they would have resurrected/modified the '78-'81 LeMans coupe body, especially since it was still being used by Chevy until '83 and Olds/Buick/Pontiac, in sedan form, until '86.

[BigPontiac]

This is an interesting take on your project idea: http://www.classicresto.com/www.classicresto.com/mambo/content/view/96/43/index.html

[thedriver]

I have been following that 2+2 build for a while now, I can't wait to see it finished.

[Blake Noble]

I'm not meaning ricey, like ricey... I'm simply comparing it to Civic guys that put a fart pipe on and Type-R stickers and consider that an upgrade. Or the people who convert their '94-'06 GTOs back into Holden Monaros. I think a Phantom project needs a bit more effort.

Whoa, whoa. This is totally different from stickers and a fart can on a Civic to "make it go fast." That '83 GP more than likely has a tired 305 in it and I'm proposing to swap it out with some sort of Pontiac V8 to up the performance end of things. The visual end of things is parts-bin sourced, sure, but that's the way GM would've done it in the '80s.

There's muscle to back up the look.

Phantom projects sometimes don't require thousands and thousands of hours and dollars worth of fabrication. Look at the ElCamino that GM built where they just grafted on the front sheetmetal of a Grand Am. That didn't require a lot of work to build. Hell, you can do that yourself in a weekend.

As for converting last generation GTOs back into Monaros ... well, I sort of like those conversions. It's a pretty subtle way to get someone to ask questions about what you're driving.

Well, a LeMans is a LeMans... and not a Grand Prix. Granted, the W-body Grand Prix did eventually replace the LeMans indirectly, through the 6000.

Anyway, that's a big part of why the GTO did not come back until 2004... Pontiac did not deem any platform to be GTO quality. This is a lot different than the other brands that whored the 442, SS or GS badges onto anything that fell off the assembly line.

Anyway, my gripe with the use of the GP is all in the formal roofline, which is totally out of character with the GTO. In fact, I would suggest that one could make a phantom GTO out of a '97-'03 GP, by converting it to RWD... adding a '69 style spoiler, and a Ram Air hood. That roofline works with the GTO DNA a bit better.

If GM was going to offer a '80s GTO, I think they would have resurrected/modified the '78-'81 LeMans coupe body, especially since it was still being used by Chevy until '83 and Olds/Buick/Pontiac, in sedan form, until '86.

Pontiac was guilty of "whoring" the GTO name to an extent too. The '74 model was based on the Nova and GM came dangerously close to building an N-Body GTO Grand Am in the early '90s.

Olds was guilty of throwing the 442 badge on a Calais, but again that wasn't until the '90s came about. Same for all of the SS and GS whoring: it didn't happen until the '90s rolled around (especially in the case of the GS badge which didn't appear until after the Regal went front-wheel drive; in the late '70s and '80s Buick had the T-Type badge for their performance cars, aside from Grand National and GN/X, and those cars were fairly formidable).

In the '80s, cars that had those badges were fairly deserving of them considering the era they were built in. The Monte Carlo SS received nothing but praise. The GN/X was a monster. (Sadly, it was the GP 2+2 that no one really respected.)

Anyway, I don't think my idea is going to manage to get off the ground because, as it turns out, no one makes reproduction 2+2 nose cones.

Edited November 13, 2011 by black-knight

[Robert Hall]

A phantom GTO based on the '80s GP make sense--after all, Olds based their '80s 442 on the Cutlass Supreme. It did always strike me as odd that Pontiac, the brand known for performance and Excitement!! didn't make more of an effort at a performance version (other than the short lived homologation special 2+2) of the GP, considering what Chevy, Buick and Olds did in the same era...

[Turbojett]

this has actually been done to some extent:

http://rides.hotrod.com/ride/1065174/stoopud/1983/pontiac/gto/photos/default.html

however, I like your customization idea better than what they did. Anyway, keep looking. I'm sure SOMEBODY has to have a repro nose or a spare or something. If not, I say get some fiberglass and some molding compound and wing it.

[ocnblu]

I don't like the hood, but everything else looks really good. I'd prefer a Trans-Am/Can Am-style shaker hood.

[SAmadei]

Phantom projects sometimes don't require thousands and thousands of hours and dollars worth of fabrication. Look at the ElCamino that GM built where they just grafted on the front sheetmetal of a Grand Am. That didn't require a lot of work to build. Hell, you can do that yourself in a weekend.

And some suffer due to it. The better El Camino phamtons usually required some rear quarter work to match the front end's wheel flairs and/or belt lines.

Pontiac was guilty of "whoring" the GTO name to an extent too. The '74 model was based on the Nova and GM came dangerously close to building an N-Body GTO Grand Am in the early '90s.

There was nothing wrong with the '74. It was closer to the '64 spec-wise, as the A-body had gotten too fat. Could they had done some more to differentiate it from the Ventura? Maybe... but remember, the muscle era was severely on the decline by '74, and there wasn't the money to do it. I would buy a '74 GTO in a heartbeat.

The N-body GTO was never going to see the light of day.

The Monte Carlo SS received nothing but praise. The GN/X was a monster. (Sadly, it was the GP 2+2 that no one really respected.)

You're looking back with rose colored glasses. In the '80s, only the GNX got respect... the SS, 442 and 2+2 were all considered lame, as they were compared to cheap used '70s musclecars. The cars looked and drove nice, but the people with the hot G-bodies had engine swaps. I know firsthand... we had a 403 powered Cutlass Supreme and it embarrassed all the SSes' and 442s my friends had.

Today we pine for the G-bodies, as they were the last of the last of the last.

Anyway, I don't think my idea is going to manage to get off the ground because, as it turns out, no one makes reproduction 2+2 nose cones.

however, I like your customization idea better than what they did. Anyway, keep looking. I'm sure SOMEBODY has to have a repro nose or a spare or something. If not, I say get some fiberglass and some molding compound and wing it.

Uh.. Lauren Engineering sells them... assuming this isn't a zombie website. They ain't cheap, though.

http://www.laureneng.com/1817117.html

[balthazar]

>>"You're looking back with rose colored glasses. In the '80s, only the GNX got respect... the SS, 442 and 2+2 were all considered lame, as they were compared to cheap used '70s musclecars."<<

Have to agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Robert Hall]

You're looking back with rose colored glasses. In the '80s, only the GNX got respect... the SS, 442 and 2+2 were all considered lame, as they were compared to cheap used '70s musclecars. The cars looked and drove nice, but the people with the hot G-bodies had engine swaps. I know firsthand... we had a 403 powered Cutlass Supreme and it embarrassed all the SSes' and 442s my friends had.

Today we pine for the G-bodies, as they were the last of the last of the last.

By the mid 80s, a lot of '70s musclecars were worn out and/or rusted out..can't imagine buyers would be comparing then-new (albeit low power) coupes to them...I remember the mid '80s G-bodies (and F-bodies) being pretty popular back in the day..

[Blake Noble]

And some suffer due to it. The better El Camino phamtons usually required some rear quarter work to match the front end's wheel flairs and/or belt lines.

That's mostly true of the pre-1978 cars.

These phantom conversions below, however, all worked out great and with little to no fabrication involved.

This SEMA Typhoon concept is basically a phantom build (this is also the first decent picture I've found of it online):

There's also the Bravada pickup. I don't know why you would build one, but it has been done:

There was nothing wrong with the '74. It was closer to the '64 spec-wise, as the A-body had gotten too fat. Could they had done some more to differentiate it from the Ventura? Maybe... but remember, the muscle era was severely on the decline by '74, and there wasn't the money to do it. I would buy a '74 GTO in a heartbeat.

The N-body GTO was never going to see the light of day.

Historically, the only reason why Pontiac decided to build the GTO on the Ventura bodyshell for '74 (and '75 if it had sold decently) was that Pontiac feared the car would eat into sales of the '73 Grand Am if it were allowed to remain on the A-Body platform. It wasn't that the A-Body had gotten too big for the GTO's britches.

As for the N-Body GTO, GM was thinking on that one pretty hard. I think the Calais 442 is proof enough where GM had its head at during that car's conception.

You're looking back with rose colored glasses. In the '80s, only the GNX got respect... the SS, 442 and 2+2 were all considered lame, as they were compared to cheap used '70s musclecars. The cars looked and drove nice, but the people with the hot G-bodies had engine swaps. I know firsthand... we had a 403 powered Cutlass Supreme and it embarrassed all the SSes' and 442s my friends had.

Well, after the first automotive Armageddon of the late '70s and very early '80s, the buyers and press alike were happy to get their hands on any factory hot rod that could be built during the '80s. Sales of the MC/SS prove that.

Today we pine for the G-bodies, as they were the last of the last of the last.

Well it's not only that -- they're still cheap as dirt compared to cars from the '70s now.

Uh.. Lauren Engineering sells them... assuming this isn't a zombie website. They ain't cheap, though.

http://www.laureneng.com/1817117.html

A grand? Ouch ...

Edited November 14, 2011 by black-knight

[SAmadei]

By the mid 80s, a lot of '70s musclecars were worn out and/or rusted out..can't imagine buyers would be comparing then-new (albeit low power) coupes to them...I remember the mid '80s G-bodies (and F-bodies) being pretty popular back in the day..

Compared, not cross-shopped.

Of course the G-bodies and F-bodies were pretty popular... there are still people who will always equate new with better. Just because you bought a 307 powered 442, you still had the constant reminder of 442s of the past when a rusted out $200 '69 442 blew your doors off. The young folks here might find it hard to believe, but once upon a time, rust holes were not such a red letter of shame... as some 2-3 year old cars had rust blossoming in massive collections. To have rust holes aft of the wheel wells was normal. And quite frankly, I'd argue that a rusted out '67 GTO looks better than anything built since 2002 in perfect, shiny shape.

That's mostly true of the pre-1978 cars.

These phantom conversions below, however, all worked out great and with little to no fabrication involved.

We'll have to agree to disagree. However, I think you are selling some of these phantoms short.

There's also the Bravada pickup. I don't know why you would build one, but it has been done:

Another grill and taillight swap. Only impressive if they swapped the dashboard and Olds-specific electronics. I've seen Cadillac Escalade pickups, too. Not all phantoms are that impressive.

Historically, the only reason why Pontiac decided to build the GTO on the Ventura bodyshell for '74 (and '75 if it had sold decently) was that Pontiac feared the car would eat into sales of the '73 Grand Am if it were allowed to remain on the A-Body platform. It wasn't that the A-Body had gotten too big for the GTO's britches.

That logic only makes sense if the '73 GTO was forced onto the X-body. The '73 GTO was an immediate failure... what, 4800 sold? The '74 reversed the trend, by selling 7000 units... the public, at the time, accepted the X-body GTO over the colonade by 68%.

As for the N-Body GTO, GM was thinking on that one pretty hard. I think the Calais 442 is proof enough where GM had its head at during that car's conception.

Totally different. Oldsmobile thought it had something hot in the Quad4... 4 cyl, 4 valves per cylinder, 2 cams. That does not jive with Gas, Tires and Oil.

Well, after the first automotive Armageddon of the late '70s and very early '80s, the buyers and press alike were happy to get their hands on any factory hot rod that could be built during the '80s. Sales of the MC/SS prove that.

Prove what? The '83-'88 MC sales paled compared to other years... like 73/74... where 300K a year were built. Even paled compared to '79's 300K.

Well it's not only that -- they're still cheap as dirt compared to cars from the '70s now.

They are only cheap as dirt for junk ones. For decent ones, you will pay. The G-bodies had notorious rust problems... I've seen colonades go cheaper than similar condition '80s Gs.

[Turbojett]

I don't like the hood, but everything else looks really good. I'd prefer a Trans-Am/Can Am-style shaker hood.

+1 on that. The scooping is hideous.

but the whole car needs some aesthetic help. Nose especially.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Turbojett

[Camino LS6]

In a perfect world, I would side with Samadei on basing an 80's GTO on the late 70's Lemans Coupe.

The nose is even better than the 2+2 nose too.

But finding one of those could be an issue.

But, I do have to agree that GM would likely have used the GP instead.

[Camino LS6]

Oh, BTW, alot of those Camino-based phantoms have extensive rear quarter work.

[Camino LS6]

I'd use this nose even if you start with a GP - it really looks the part of a GTO much more than the 2+2 nose.

[Drew Dowdell]

I need that Bravadalanche Bravadamino El Bravado 1987 REO Bravadagon