Cadillac XTS Struts Its Stuff At LA

[Drew Dowdell]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

[SAmadei]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

Well, it IS the Cadillac of minivans.

[Drew Dowdell]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

Well, it IS the Cadillac of minivans.

Knock it all you want, but it is selling at the same price point as its German rivals AND at higher volume.

[hyperv6]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

Well, it IS the Cadillac of minivans.

Knock it all you want, but it is selling at the same price point as its German rivals AND at higher volume.

Like em or not the sales number speak louder than perceptions.

[Robert Hall]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

[smk4565]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

And this buyer doesn't care so much about performance, as they do comfort and features. Plus the GLK is smaller than a Honda CR-V by length and only about an inch wider. It is a compact vehicle where as the mid-size MDX, RX, and even 3 row Acura MDX may suit families/moms better. Furthermore, I think most people that go to a BMW or Mercedes dealer are looking for a sports sedan or coupe/convertible, not a cute-ute, where as people that go to a Lexus dealer want an SUV or are 74 years old.

[Drew Dowdell]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

The "target" doesn't know or care if it is FWD or RWD since they buy them in AWD over 50% of the time. Once it gets into AWD format, perceptions of "betterer" in either direction vanish for 98% of the driving public.

[smk4565]

yet mercedes & BMW are bringing multiple FWD models to the most lucrative market on Earth- the U.S.; Cadillac is dead, why copy anything they do?

Both still have to worry about fuel economy regulations, BMW still doesn't have a FWD car. Mercedes has the A/B-class, but the B-class is 6 inches shorter than a Corvette, and 5 inches shorter than a Chevrolet Sonic. It is a tiny car, so at that size and price point (and horsepower level), RWD vs FWD isn't as much as an issue. And FWD for interior space is probably better on a car that small. It's not like they are making a FWD S-class.

Cadillac isn't dead like Lincoln, Cadillac is treading water. Acura, Lincoln, even Lexus are ripe for the picking right now, Cadillac has a chance to climb the ladder if they play their cards right. The luxury market is just waiting for someone to pull a Hyundai and rise up and take it by storm. Cadillac should be the company to do it, if not, it will probably be Hyundai that does it (maybe not now, but 2020ish).

[smk4565]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

The "target" doesn't know or care if it is FWD or RWD since they buy them in AWD over 50% of the time. Once it gets into AWD format, perceptions of "betterer" in either direction vanish for 98% of the driving public.

Correct. The Sheeple don't care. And they also can be swayed to the lower priced vehicle, or trade their Acura on a Lincoln, Lincoln on a Lexus, Lexus on a Cadillac, etc. They aren't as loyal, they won't pay a premium to have what is betterer. I think this customer could also be swayed from entry-lux to a Ford Explorer, Enclave or next-gen Hyundai Vera Cruz or vehicles like that.

So yes, it is profitable for a while to sucker someone on paying $45k for an SUV that is really a Camry underneath, but I don't see that is sustainable, I see it more as a trend. The 90s Explorer then the Expeditions and Tahoes were all cash cows, but they run their course

[Robert Hall]

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

The "target" doesn't know or care if it is FWD or RWD since they buy them in AWD over 50% of the time. Once it gets into AWD format, perceptions of "betterer" in either direction vanish for 98% of the driving public.

F the 98%. Luxury cars are supposed to be premium, not your everyday generic FWD sh*tbox that Toyota, Hyundai, etc peddle...

[Drew Dowdell]

The X3 has never been a sales stunner.

"The Market" has spoken and dubbed the FWD based SRX to be better than the RWD based X3 and GLK.

The target for the SRX really, though, is the FWD based premium CUVs---the RX, MDX, and MKX.

The "target" doesn't know or care if it is FWD or RWD since they buy them in AWD over 50% of the time. Once it gets into AWD format, perceptions of "betterer" in either direction vanish for 98% of the driving public.

F the 98%. Luxury cars are supposed to be premium, not your everyday generic FWD sh*tbox that Toyota, Hyundai, etc peddle...

Cadillac needs to make the money.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac needs to make the money.

That's point of Chevy, Buick and GMC. Profit centers. They can peddle the volume FWD mediocrity to the masses. Cadillac should be above that nonsense.

Isn't Buick supposed to compete w/ the FWD Lexus models anyway??

Edited October 25, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[FAPTurbo]

So yes, it is profitable for a while to sucker someone on paying $45k for an SUV that is really a Camry underneath, but I don't see that is sustainable, I see it more as a trend.

If it you mere making this statement in 2001, then it'd probably be fine. But 2011? Thirteen years after the RX's debut? I don't think this 'trend' is stopping anytime soon.

[Robert Hall]

So yes, it is profitable for a while to sucker someone on paying $45k for an SUV that is really a Camry underneath, but I don't see that is sustainable, I see it more as a trend.

If it you mere making this statement in 2001, then it'd probably be fine. But 2011? Thirteen years after the RX's debut? I don't think this 'trend' is stopping anytime soon.

True enough..GM seems to be able to get people to pay that much for the SRX that's just an Equinox underneath...

[Drew Dowdell]

and why not? It's profitable for them, It isn't hurting their image in the target market (in fact the image has greatly improved on this model), and it is selling waaaay better than the German competition at the same price point.

The GLK and X3 are within an inch in either direction of the SRX on interior dimensions. Yes the SRX is longer externally, but people don't generally worry about that unless they are shopping in the Suburban class.

The point is. Making the SRX rwd would have added no value to the target market and increased the costs for Cadillac (Sigma is more expensive than T-E).

[smk4565]

Right now Hyundai makes 3 rear drive cars and Cadillac makes 1. I'm just sayin'. Cadillac does what's easy, they won't beat the Germans doing that. Cadillac wants to be the "standard of the world" but look at what they have, Tahoe, LaCrosse, and Equinox underpinnings. That's average mainstream, not global luxury leader.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac wants to be the "standard of the world" but look at what they have, Tahoe, LaCrosse, and Equinox underpinnings. That's average mainstream, not global luxury leader.

Unfortunately, that's the same strategy that Lincoln has (and they have even one more FWD CUV). It's not working very well for them...

[Drew Dowdell]

Right now Hyundai makes 3 rear drive cars and Cadillac makes 1. I'm just sayin'. Cadillac does what's easy, they won't beat the Germans doing that. Cadillac wants to be the "standard of the world" but look at what they have, Tahoe, LaCrosse, and Equinox underpinnings. That's average mainstream, not global luxury leader.

They are three mediocre RWD cars that get plastered by the media any time someone tries to hustle one through a bunch of cones. All three combined were outsold by the SRX just by itself last month. The CTS alone ALSO outsold all three Hyundai RWD vehicles (the bulk of which are the $26k coupe). Even the Buick Enclave outsold all three Hyundai RWD vehicles.

To add insult to injury, despite both being out of production for months, the DTS is STILL selling more than double the Equus and as of October 1, the STS and Equus YTD sales are roughly identical.

[smk4565]

The Equus is more expensive than a DTS or STS, plus a lot of people don't know what it is. Hyundai isn't selling a lot of Genesis and Equus now, but they are improving, and those cars have changed the brand image and the lower end cars have been surging for 2 years now. Rome wasn't built in a day, let's see where the Genesis/Equus are in 10 years. Market leaders? No, probably not, but a thorn in the side of Lexus, you bet. And if it doesn't work out, at least they had the guts to try.

A DTS or even Lucerne or LaCrosse will sell to existing Buick/Cadillac buyers who never drove anything else and that is all they want. But if Cadillac wants to grow, they need new buyers that never looked at Cadillac before, and buyers outside of the USA that hadn't looked at Cadillac before. The XTS appeals to the Cadillac buyer of the 1980s, Cadillac should be going after the buyer of the 2010s and 2020s. And yes the ATS will do that to an extent, but they need more than that.

Cadillac and especially Lincoln, just can't seem to dream big or innovate or be a leader. They both are luxury cars designed by corporate bureaucracy, built on the lowest common denominator platform. Built with a sales figure goal and cash on hood rebate in mind. Neither know how to build brand image. Cadillac could be and should be better than that.

[Z-06]

The Equus is more expensive than a DTS or STS, plus a lot of people don't know what it is. Hyundai isn't selling a lot of Genesis and Equus now, but they are improving, and those cars have changed the brand image and the lower end cars have been surging for 2 years now. Rome wasn't built in a day, let's see where the Genesis/Equus are in 10 years. Market leaders? No, probably not, but a thorn in the side of Lexus, you bet. And if it doesn't work out, at least they had the guts to try.

If a redneck supervisor working in mines knows and testdrives one, then a "well educated" person living in the city should. If Rome was not built in a day then the Rome of Cadillac that got destroyed in the 80s and 90s can't be built in a day either.

A DTS or even Lucerne or LaCrosse will sell to existing Buick/Cadillac buyers who never drove anything else and that is all they want. But if Cadillac wants to grow, they need new buyers that never looked at Cadillac before, and buyers outside of the USA that hadn't looked at Cadillac before. The XTS appeals to the Cadillac buyer of the 1980s, Cadillac should be going after the buyer of the 2010s and 2020s. And yes the ATS will do that to an extent, but they need more than that.

If enticing blue haired people works for Buick then it should work for Cadillac too because it also has the euphoria of the past from the same subset of buyers. Ask Oldsmoboi's grandmother how much was the 7er a buy for luxury rather than capability of throwing around the corners. Cadillac does not have anything there and like you said Rome was not built in a day.

Cadillac and especially Lincoln, just can't seem to dream big or innovate or be a leader. They both are luxury cars designed by corporate bureaucracy, built on the lowest common denominator platform. Built with a sales figure goal and cash on hood rebate in mind. Neither know how to build brand image. Cadillac could be and should be better than that.

Again you envision to look forward but keep harping back in the 80s and 90s - a strategy that has never left your sheath. Bring something new to the table man.

[smk4565]

If Rome was not built in a day then the Rome of Cadillac that got destroyed in the 80s and 90s can't be built in a day either.

True but Cadillac has been rebuilding since 2002, it has been almost 10 years. And the XTS isn't the type of car that helps rebuild greatness. It maintains mediocrity.

[Drew Dowdell]

If Rome was not built in a day then the Rome of Cadillac that got destroyed in the 80s and 90s can't be built in a day either.

True but Cadillac has been rebuilding since 2002, it has been almost 10 years. And the XTS isn't the type of car that helps rebuild greatness. It maintains mediocrity.

Just like the A8 right?

[smk4565]

If Rome was not built in a day then the Rome of Cadillac that got destroyed in the 80s and 90s can't be built in a day either.

True but Cadillac has been rebuilding since 2002, it has been almost 10 years. And the XTS isn't the type of car that helps rebuild greatness. It maintains mediocrity.

Just like the A8 right?

How are the 2 similar? The A8 has a longitudinally mounted engine. In the US it only offers V8 and W12 engines. Yes I know there is a FWD V6 version in other markets. And how does the A8 do compared to the S-class? $20,000 less price and still gets outsold like 3 to 1 despite being a brand new design vs an S-class that has been on the market 6 years.

The XTS doesn't push Cadillac to a new price point, it doesn't bring in new buyers (demographic wise), it isn't a halo vehicle, it is just filler. The ATS at least can bring in a new demographic, it provides Cadillac with a compact that they haven't had in 25 years, the ATS should grow the brand and improve image. The ATS at least challenges the imports, the XTS is just another large, domestic, FWD sedan, and that segment is dying. Why cater to a dying segment, why not go where the growth is or invent one.

[Drew Dowdell]

Want to make a little wager on which will sell better in the U.S., the XTS or the A8?

[Z-06]

The XTS doesn't push Cadillac to a new price point, it doesn't bring in new buyers (demographic wise), it isn't a halo vehicle, it is just filler. The ATS at least can bring in a new demographic, it provides Cadillac with a compact that they haven't had in 25 years, the ATS should grow the brand and improve image. The ATS at least challenges the imports, the XTS is just another large, domestic, FWD sedan, and that segment is dying. Why cater to a dying segment, why not go where the growth is or invent one.

And that is precisely the point of the car. Everyone knows it is a filler vehicle. Again what are you trying to prove. Conceptually I am against the car, but if it brings the bread and butter from the blue haired so be it. Prove to me that the segment is dying.

If Ciel is any indication, then Cadillac is far from done and becoming ho-hum as the grimace you try to put in every post.

[smk4565]

Want to make a little wager on which will sell better in the U.S., the XTS or the A8?

The XTS will because it will cost less. If the XTS was $75,000 base price I think it may be a different story. Plus the XTS will have fleet and livery sales. So yes the XTS will have volume, but how profitable is a car like that, compared to a high end RWD car that can command a price premium.

[smk4565]

And that is precisely the point of the car. Everyone knows it is a filler vehicle. Again what are you trying to prove. Conceptually I am against the car, but if it brings the bread and butter from the blue haired so be it. Prove to me that the segment is dying.

Well in 2000, there was the Seville, Eldorado, Deville, Aurora, Park Avenue, Continental as FWD luxury sedans over 200 inches long. Plus the Bonneville, Lesabre and 300M/LHS just below that. 10 name plates and some of those were big sellers. Come 2012 and there will be LaCrosse (197 inch long), XTS, and MKS. In 2000 Lincoln sold 22,000 Continentals, they have sold 8,800 MKS so far in 9 months this year, same size car and price point.

[Drew Dowdell]

Want to make a little wager on which will sell better in the U.S., the XTS or the A8?

The XTS will because it will cost less. If the XTS was $75,000 base price I think it may be a different story. Plus the XTS will have fleet and livery sales. So yes the XTS will have volume, but how profitable is a car like that, compared to a high end RWD car that can command a price premium.

I'm even willing to give you a 200% handicap for the price difference and subtract fleet sales from the XTS numbers.

Basically for me to win, the XTS has to sell triple the A8 at retail. Three retail XTS for every one A8 sold.

To make it interesting, I'll even put it up against the 7 series with a 100% handicap. Two retail XTS for every one 7-series sold.

[Z-06]

Want to make a little wager on which will sell better in the U.S., the XTS or the A8?

The XTS will because it will cost less. If the XTS was $75,000 base price I think it may be a different story. Plus the XTS will have fleet and livery sales. So yes the XTS will have volume, but how profitable is a car like that, compared to a high end RWD car that can command a price premium.

No you cannot use the tone MB sells more S classes than A8 despite of being costly and then turn 180 and use the rhetoric XTS will be cheaper than A8 hence sell well. Guess what LS outsold MB and vice a versa over the past few years despite significant price difference. What explanation you have sonny boy.

And that is precisely the point of the car. Everyone knows it is a filler vehicle. Again what are you trying to prove. Conceptually I am against the car, but if it brings the bread and butter from the blue haired so be it. Prove to me that the segment is dying.

Well in 2000, there was the Seville, Eldorado, Deville, Aurora, Park Avenue, Continental as FWD luxury sedans over 200 inches long. Plus the Bonneville, Lesabre and 300M/LHS just below that. 10 name plates and some of those were big sellers. Come 2012 and there will be LaCrosse (197 inch long), XTS, and MKS. In 2000 Lincoln sold 22,000 Continentals, they have sold 8,800 MKS so far in 9 months this year, same size car and price point.

Again only half the numbers; you left LaCrosse/Lucerne numbers skillfully out because it did not prove your theory. Prove that it was not the case that the supply diminished rather than the demand due to underwhelming products, lack of any updates, killing of brands/products, which led to the demise of the segment.

[daves87rs]

waiting.....

[smk4565]

I'm even willing to give you a 200% handicap for the price difference and subtract fleet sales from the XTS numbers.

Basically for me to win, the XTS has to sell triple the A8 at retail. Three retail XTS for every one A8 sold.

To make it interesting, I'll even put it up against the 7 series with a 100% handicap. Two retail XTS for every one 7-series sold.

It is still a cheaper car, and the A8 is a sales dog. Compare retail XTS sales vs retail E-class or 5-series, at least they are at the same price point.

It wouldn't surprise me if the XTS sells 3,000 cars a month, especially while new with a lot of marketing and picking up lost Town Car sales in the livery market. There is still a segment of older buyers that like a big, soft Cadillac, but I see this car at the end of its life cycle back down around 1000 cars a month like the DTS and MKS are at now. And probably another one and done GM car like the Cobalt, Lucerne, most Saturns, etc.

[smk4565]

Again only half the numbers; you left LaCrosse/Lucerne numbers skillfully out because it did not prove your theory. Prove that it was not the case that the supply diminished rather than the demand due to underwhelming products, lack of any updates, killing of brands/products, which led to the demise of the segment.

So MKS sells half what the Continental did.

Chrysler killed the FWD big sedans and went to RWD.

LeSabre in 2000 sold 148,000 units.

Park Avenue 48,000

Deville sold 105,000

Seville/Eldorado/Aurora combined for 71,000

Bonneville 66,000

Together that is 438,000 large FWD cars of about 200 inches in length.

In 2011, the LaCrosse, Lucerne and DTS have combined for 74,000 sales, on pace for 98,600 for the full year. 438,000 cars to 98,000 cars in 11 years. Full size FWD luxury or near luxury is dying. Cadillac should be putting every dollar into rear wheel drive, a new V8, a new transmission, and fuel saving measures.

Edited October 25, 2011 by smk4565

[Z-06]

I'm even willing to give you a 200% handicap for the price difference and subtract fleet sales from the XTS numbers.

Basically for me to win, the XTS has to sell triple the A8 at retail. Three retail XTS for every one A8 sold.

To make it interesting, I'll even put it up against the 7 series with a 100% handicap. Two retail XTS for every one 7-series sold.

It is still a cheaper car, and the A8 is a sales dog. Compare retail XTS sales vs retail E-class or 5-series, at least they are at the same price point.

It wouldn't surprise me if the XTS sells 3,000 cars a month, especially while new with a lot of marketing and picking up lost Town Car sales in the livery market. There is still a segment of older buyers that like a big, soft Cadillac, but I see this car at the end of its life cycle back down around 1000 cars a month like the DTS and MKS are at now. And probably another one and done GM car like the Cobalt, Lucerne, most Saturns, etc.

Okay fair, let us play your game and compare the Equus sales to the E class and Genesis sedan to the CTS, 3er and C class since they play in the same pool price wise.

Again you did not prove your point that the market demand is diminishing or dead for those vehicles. You just supported the point that it is the lack of up-to-date supply of large cars that is reason why the people are not buying those vehicles.

[Z-06]

Again only half the numbers; you left LaCrosse/Lucerne numbers skillfully out because it did not prove your theory. Prove that it was not the case that the supply diminished rather than the demand due to underwhelming products, lack of any updates, killing of brands/products, which led to the demise of the segment.

So MKS sells half what the Continental did.

Chrysler killed the FWD big sedans and went to RWD.

LeSabre in 2000 sold 148,000 units.

Park Avenue 48,000

Deville sold 105,000

Seville/Eldorado/Aurora combined for 71,000

Bonneville 66,000

Together that is 438,000 large FWD cars of about 200 inches in length.

In 2011, the LaCrosse, Lucerne and DTS have combined for 74,000 sales, on pace for 98,600 for the full year. 438,000 cars to 98,000 cars in 11 years. Full size FWD luxury or near luxury is dying. Cadillac should be putting every dollar into rear wheel drive, a new V8, a new transmission, and fuel saving measures.

Again, 7 cars in 2000 with no replacements, or updates in 2010, which includes killing of two brands. Only two cars are soldiering on. So 440,000 x2/7 ~ 125,000 cars add to that depressed auto sales as industry is down to 12M units compared to 15M in 2000, which brings the annual sales to 100,000. I think demand for those cars are on track for the supply. It is too simplistic, I know, but again your theory does not disprove this phenomenon that the supply is diminishing or dead. You may very well be taking cause for the result.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm even willing to give you a 200% handicap for the price difference and subtract fleet sales from the XTS numbers.

Basically for me to win, the XTS has to sell triple the A8 at retail. Three retail XTS for every one A8 sold.

To make it interesting, I'll even put it up against the 7 series with a 100% handicap. Two retail XTS for every one 7-series sold.

It is still a cheaper car, and the A8 is a sales dog. Compare retail XTS sales vs retail E-class or 5-series, at least they are at the same price point.

It wouldn't surprise me if the XTS sells 3,000 cars a month, especially while new with a lot of marketing and picking up lost Town Car sales in the livery market. There is still a segment of older buyers that like a big, soft Cadillac, but I see this car at the end of its life cycle back down around 1000 cars a month like the DTS and MKS are at now. And probably another one and done GM car like the Cobalt, Lucerne, most Saturns, etc.

So you admit that the XTS will easily come in 3rd place in sales behind the 5-series and E-Class with little effort by Cadillac, thereby outselling RWD mavens like the Genesis, M35/45, GS350/450, and Jaguar XF. While also soundly trouncing the A6 AND A8 combined, the MKS, the RL, the S60, and the S80.

and in a market segment that Cadillac was under performing in for the past few years no less. Your argument that the platform it is based on will kill the car doesn't hold water since it would end up outselling at least 4 RWD cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Again only half the numbers; you left LaCrosse/Lucerne numbers skillfully out because it did not prove your theory. Prove that it was not the case that the supply diminished rather than the demand due to underwhelming products, lack of any updates, killing of brands/products, which led to the demise of the segment.

So MKS sells half what the Continental did.

Chrysler killed the FWD big sedans and went to RWD.

LeSabre in 2000 sold 148,000 units.

Park Avenue 48,000

Deville sold 105,000

Seville/Eldorado/Aurora combined for 71,000

Bonneville 66,000

Together that is 438,000 large FWD cars of about 200 inches in length.

In 2011, the LaCrosse, Lucerne and DTS have combined for 74,000 sales, on pace for 98,600 for the full year. 438,000 cars to 98,000 cars in 11 years. Full size FWD luxury or near luxury is dying. Cadillac should be putting every dollar into rear wheel drive, a new V8, a new transmission, and fuel saving measures.

And Avalon, ES, and RL, and S60 and S80, and MKS, and Taurus.....you forgot those numbers.

[Bimmer325]

I'm not sure the A8 vs. XTS comparison is a valid argument. The A8 is a direct competitor to the S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The XTS is not; it's aimed at a different segment entirely. Its main competition seems to be more in line with cars like the MKS. The bottom line--for me--is that Cadillac should have something to go up against tier-one luxury sedans like the A8, S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The debate over sales numbers is kind of beside the point. The XTS won't compete with these cars. Like smk said, GM has Buick to compete with tier-two and three luxury marques. Cadillac should be competing with Mercedes, Audi and BMW. Cars like the XTS won't elevate Cadillac to tier-one status, especially if a good deal of sales are aimed at fleets.

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not sure the A8 vs. XTS comparison is a valid argument. The A8 is a direct competitor to the S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The XTS is not; it's aimed at a different segment entirely. Its main competition seems to be more in line with cars like the MKS. The bottom line--for me--is that Cadillac should have something to go up against tier-one luxury sedans like the A8, S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The debate over sales numbers is kind of beside the point. The XTS won't compete with these cars. Like smk said, GM has Buick to compete with tier-two and three luxury marques. Cadillac should be competing with Mercedes, Audi and BMW. Cars like the XTS won't elevate Cadillac to tier-one status, especially if a good deal of sales are aimed at fleets.

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

Ok. Fine. The A6 then.

The ZTS is coming to slot above the XTS.

[Bimmer325]

I'm not sure the A8 vs. XTS comparison is a valid argument. The A8 is a direct competitor to the S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The XTS is not; it's aimed at a different segment entirely. Its main competition seems to be more in line with cars like the MKS. The bottom line--for me--is that Cadillac should have something to go up against tier-one luxury sedans like the A8, S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The debate over sales numbers is kind of beside the point. The XTS won't compete with these cars. Like smk said, GM has Buick to compete with tier-two and three luxury marques. Cadillac should be competing with Mercedes, Audi and BMW. Cars like the XTS won't elevate Cadillac to tier-one status, especially if a good deal of sales are aimed at fleets.

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

Ok. Fine. The A6 then.

The ZTS is coming to slot above the XTS.

Regarding the ZTS: fair enough. The Ciel is a good start.

But regarding the A6 comparison...I'm not buying it. I don't see the XTS as a real competitor to the A6--and it doesn't look like GM is that confident it'll compete in that segment either.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not sure the A8 vs. XTS comparison is a valid argument. The A8 is a direct competitor to the S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The XTS is not; it's aimed at a different segment entirely. Its main competition seems to be more in line with cars like the MKS. The bottom line--for me--is that Cadillac should have something to go up against tier-one luxury sedans like the A8, S-Class, 7, LS, etc. The debate over sales numbers is kind of beside the point. The XTS won't compete with these cars. Like smk said, GM has Buick to compete with tier-two and three luxury marques. Cadillac should be competing with Mercedes, Audi and BMW. Cars like the XTS won't elevate Cadillac to tier-one status, especially if a good deal of sales are aimed at fleets.

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

Ok. Fine. The A6 then.

The ZTS is coming to slot above the XTS.

Regarding the ZTS: fair enough. The Ciel is a good start.

But regarding the A6 comparison...I'm not buying it. I don't see the XTS as a real competitor to the A6--and it doesn't look like GM is that confident it'll compete in that segment either.

You don't think the XTS will outsell the A6?

[Bimmer325]

Do I think the XTS will outsell the A6? Yes.

Do I think buyers will cross-shop the two? No.

[Drew Dowdell]

So I guess I don't follow. Cadillac selling a vehicle in a segment at the same price as its rivals and coming in a comfortable 3rd place in sales after being at the bottom in sales for years isn't a success how? Just because it isn't a badge engineered E-class?

Is that really what its going to take to satisfy you? Just scratch off the 3-point star, paste on a wreath and call it a day?

Isn't 3k units a month proof that a segment for this car would exist out there? Is the $45k dollar those buyers pay less green?

I'm not against a RWD flagship at all. But I think the XTS has its place as well. If Cadillac can make money from it without damaging the brand.... why not?

We've already seen what GM can do with a FWD platform in the old Cobalt. The Lacrosse is already one of the better handling FWD sedans out there.....

I don't have the fears of the XTS that some of you do. I also am realistic in that getting a new car on the market is more involved than "downloading an app"... and I haven't forgotten that nearly everything got shelved 2 years ago while GM went through bankruptcy.

[hyperv6]

The XTS as many here understand is a transitional car. It is the last of the old Cadillac. The ATS is the real first step into the future for Cadillac since it was finally a no compromised funded car.

The XTS has its group of people that will make it profitable and sell in good numbers. Contrary to some way of thinking there are still a group of people out there that this car will still appeal too. There are many who still yet have no care of FWD or RWD. Not every Luxury car buyer is a performance driven enthusiast. There are many who are pleases with a quiet well riding luxury car that has all the bells and whistles. It is not a growing segment but they have few cars to choose from.

For the time we have the XTS it will serve GM well. It will provide income on designes they had already paid for. It will fill space in a show room vs a empty space that would not provide any income. Finally it will also work to help the people in this class to either die off or move to the cars Cadillac is moving too.

Even in the RWD class not everyone is a gear head and even if they may buy them does not really mean they care what wheels are driven.

Too many here look at this as a car guy issue and not as a buisness choice. Just the livery sales alone should make this car worth building alone without the town car around.

While this car will not win Cadillac fame it will also do it no harm. Now if this was the so called flag ship that would not due.

Old people, large people, luxury car people etc you name it bought the DTS even in its aged old design condition. I expect the new car with a much more fresh look will be pleases.

Also do not count out China. They love to be driven if they have money. With them the back seat appointments are more important than what wheels are driven. The China sales with a version of this car will be big pure profit no matter what the car out sells here.

[smk4565]

And Avalon, ES, and RL, and S60 and S80, and MKS, and Taurus.....you forgot those numbers.

Avalon isn't a luxury car, and I left it and the RL out because their sales volume hasn't changed much over 10 years, if anything they probably dropped. The Lexus ES and Volvo S80 are mid-size cars, not full size, an S80 is smaller than a CTS by length. Taurus/Impala also not luxury cars, but their sales dropped too.

My point is only that there used to be 10+ full size FWD sedans in entry to mid luxury and collectively they sold in big numbers. Come 2012 there will be LaCrosse, XTS, MKS, and those aren't big volume cars. Companies quit offering a lot of big FWD cars because people weren't buying them.

The same thing can be said for body on frame SUVs, especially full size. Go back 10 years or so and look at Explorer, Expedition, Tahoe/Yukon, Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada, Pathfinder, Sequoia/Land Cruiser, etc. BOF SUV's dominated sales charts, then crossovers came and the market quickly shifted, and who wants a 16 mpg body on frame mid-size SUV now?

I just see the XTS targeting where the market was, and not where the luxury market is going.

[smk4565]

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

This is the key point.

I don't see the XTS as a big seller, even if it doubles the DTS, it is 2,000 cars a month. And if they fleet a lot of them off, what is the profit margin on those? GM for years had tons of sales volume and lost money because of legacy costs, massive rebates, fleets, etc. Brand positioning and profitability should be the focus.

(Edit: and I know I said 3k a month earlier, but that is a high side and given lots of marketing during year one and a lot of fleet/livery sales. We've seen GM cars do well out of the gate then fall off before)

Edited October 25, 2011 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

Old people, large people, luxury car people etc you name it bought the DTS even in its aged old design condition. I expect the new car with a much more fresh look will be pleases.

Also do not count out China. They love to be driven if they have money. With them the back seat appointments are more important than what wheels are driven. The China sales with a version of this car will be big pure profit no matter what the car out sells here.

And ES350/TL/RL drivers who want to go up in class but don't want RWD (yes, they are out there)

In China this could sell with an Ecotec 2.4 and still do well because the chauffeured care more about fuel economy than speed.

For me it comes down to this: Cadillac should be positioning itself against TIER-ONE brands. The XTS might sell well, but it doesn't accomplish that.

This is the key point.

I don't see the XTS as a big seller, even if it doubles the DTS, it is 2,000 cars a month. And if they fleet a lot of them off, what is the profit margin on those? GM for years had tons of sales volume and lost money because of legacy costs, massive rebates, fleets, etc. Brand positioning and profitability should be the focus.

(Edit: and I know I said 3k a month earlier, but that is a high side and given lots of marketing during year one and a lot of fleet/livery sales. We've seen GM cars do well out of the gate then fall off before)

So are you going to take my bet or no?

[smk4565]

So are you going to take my bet or no?

I'd bet that the E-class or 5-series outsell the XTS on retail. But not having seen the car or what it will be priced at, it is hard to say how it will sell. I wouldn't bet on an Audi outselling it since Audi sales in the USA aren't that good.

[ocnblu]

My biggest fear is that the XTS will become Cadillac's best selling vehicle. Which will embolden the sell-outs within GM who wanted this car, and likely further slide Cadillac down the luxury car pecking order, because they're clearly chasing volume, not prestige with it, and if it is a success, more FWD mediocrity will come after it.

[Z-06]

Do I think the XTS will outsell the A6? Yes.

Do I think buyers will cross-shop the two? No.

The fact that XTS will outsell RL, A6 with minimum investment is victory itself provided it uses the profits for other vehicles to compete and overthrow the German brands.

My biggest fear is that the XTS will become Cadillac's best selling vehicle. Which will embolden the sell-outs within GM who wanted this car, and likely further slide Cadillac down the luxury car pecking order, because they're clearly chasing volume, not prestige with it, and if it is a success, more FWD mediocrity will come after it.

Yes that is my fear too till I see ZTS, ATS, revised CTS and a super car in person. Negative nannies, Pencil Pushers, Bean Counters from yore are still existing in GM and have shown forces at times. Resting the laurel on XTS while its sale go through the roof is not enough.

[SAmadei]

Isn't 3k units a month proof that a segment for this car would exist out there? Is the $45k dollar those buyers pay less green?

No, it isn't. I would agree with SMK's opinion that sales will likely hit $3K for about a year before coming back down to DTS numbers... so that means GM is paying, what I'd guesstimate, 500 million (Though I would suspect its closer to 800 million) to create the XTS. They will sell 24K over what the DTS would have... 24000 x $45K, equal about 1 billion. Unless these cars are >50% profit (they are not), its a wash.

Of course, this is without the possible sales bump the XTS/DTS might get from the Lucerne/STS/Town Car's demise. But that sales bump would have come without paying $500 million to build a whole new car.

We've already seen what GM can do with a FWD platform in the old Cobalt. The Lacrosse is already one of the better handling FWD sedans out there.....

When you can say that last sentence without the FWD, GM will have done something special to FWD.