Cadillac XTS Struts Its Stuff At LA

[Drew Dowdell]

Well the Lacrosse isn't meant to be a sporty car, it's meant to be a soft car. The Town Car is a terrible handling car and it's RWD. The Cobalt SS is a great handling car that was able to out run its contemporary RWD 3-series around the 'Ring and it was FWD.

So yes, GM has done something special to FWD (especially now with hi-per strut) but I don't expect my grandmother's Lacrosse to handle like a 5-series because it isn't meant to.

[smk4565]

I doubt they are spending $500 million on the XTS, even if you include all the marketing. Probably not even half that.

To me it is the principal of the thing. FWD on full size or even mid-size is what Lincoln or Acura would pull, and they are just posers. The XTS just sends the message that Cadillac is content with stop gaps or staying status-quo with the DTS buyer. Cadillac just isn't showing that desire to go to the next level.

[FAPTurbo]

Why do people assume FWD automatically equals 'DTS Buyer?' There may actually be people out there that want a sumptuous, high-tech urban cruiser, and wouldn't touch an old DeVille with a ten foot pole.

[balthazar]

^ Some people are under the delusion that drive wheels is the prime factor in car sales.

[Justin Bimmer]

^ Some people are under the delusion that drive wheels is the prime factor in car sales.

Some would say it is the ONLY factor. The question is, do they know which wheels drive the car?

[Drew Dowdell]

^ Some people are under the delusion that drive wheels is the prime factor in car sales.

Some would say it is the ONLY factor. The question is, do they know which wheels drive the car?

For everyone except SMK and maybe 3 others, once the car is AWD, what the car is "based" on no longer matters.

[Z-06]

^ Some people are under the delusion that drive wheels is the prime factor in car sales.

Some would say it is the ONLY factor. The question is, do they know which wheels drive the car?

For everyone except SMK and maybe 3 others, once the car is AWD and longitudnal engine layout, what the car is "based" on no longer matters.

[Drew Dowdell]

No. Most people don't even know which way the engine is oriented. As long as when they turn the key, or push the button in SMK's "high tech" world", and the engine starts, they never have a reason to even open the hood.

[ocnblu]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QnLDZbEXfms?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="480"></iframe>

[smk4565]

Problem with FWD or even an AWD transverse engine is they usually have 60/40 weight distribution. Secondly, at over 275 hp or so, FWD cars torque steer and have understeer as well. And my guess is the XTS suspension won't be set up to tackle the Nurburgring, it is going to be Lexus-level floating.

[FAPTurbo]

Problem with FWD or even an AWD transverse engine is they usually have 60/40 weight distribution. Secondly, at over 275 hp or so, FWD cars torque steer and have understeer as well. And my guess is the XTS suspension won't be set up to tackle the Nurburgring, it is going to be Lexus-level floating.

Right, because General Motors' chassis development engineers have all been cryogenically frozen since 1993 and were only revived in 2009.

[Justin Bimmer]

Didn't this thing called hyperstrut come out oh 5 years ago that basically eliminates torque steer.

[hyperv6]

Problem with FWD or even an AWD transverse engine is they usually have 60/40 weight distribution. Secondly, at over 275 hp or so, FWD cars torque steer and have understeer as well. And my guess is the XTS suspension won't be set up to tackle the Nurburgring, it is going to be Lexus-level floating.

While it may not be a M5 killer you will be badly mistaken to under estimate this car. Having driven many of GM's most recent FWD cars I know what they can do now and they ain't a K car.

When the Cobalt SS laped the Ring in nearly the same time as the Camaro SS the weigh balance was not an issue. Any car that can turn in a sub 9 min run is respectable.

Most buyers out there don't even ask if it is FWD or RWD they drive the car and if they like it they buy it. I think once Benz and BMW start to offer FWD you will find many people buying them just as the RWD cars. People in this class often buy a badge and image not a drivetrain layout unless it says AMG, V or M.

I do not see the XTS as a V series car but it will be a world class ride with more then competent handling. Like the Lacrosse it is not a performance car but still will handle some spirited driving with no drama. The ride is the focus but it will still turn with out dragging a door handle.

[hyperv6]

Didn't this thing called hyperstrut come out oh 5 years ago that basically eliminates torque steer.

Yes they did. THey also had a pretty good handle on it before the new strut. It just made it even better. I still like a RWD performance set up better but the new FWD set ups do very well. With near 300 HP in my FWD I have no complaints other than the lack of traction. But then that is why they gave me Launch control.

[ocnblu]

Butt... I thought FWD was supposed to cure all traction woes?

[Drew Dowdell]

Problem with FWD or even an AWD transverse engine is they usually have 60/40 weight distribution. Secondly, at over 275 hp or so, FWD cars torque steer and have understeer as well. And my guess is the XTS suspension won't be set up to tackle the Nurburgring, it is going to be Lexus-level floating.

The Lacrosse isn't even Lexus level floating. I expect the XTS to be sportier and stiffer than that (probably with Magnaride).

GM also also virtually eliminated torque steer with hi-per strut so that the only time you'd even notice it were if you were turning a corner on a cobble stone road at full throttle.... not something done in typical driving.

Also, the XTS is most likely going to be AWD for most models with just the FWD going to the base model for livery.

[Drew Dowdell]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QnLDZbEXfms?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="480"></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuqEyGHiq6g

The XTS is no K-car unless you want to also count the DTS as one as well. It was based on the "lowly" Aurora. There is no shame in Cadillac borrowing a platform from another division if that platform is already excellent to start with.

Somehow, I don't think you would be protesting if Cadillac slummed around enough to pick up a lowly Chevy Zeta sedan to build its car on.

[Robert Hall]

Somehow, I don't think you would be protesting if Cadillac slummed around enough to pick up a lowly Chevy Zeta sedan to build its car on.

Of course not. Zeta is RWD which is automatically superior to any FWD platform. FWD is appropriate for subcompact, compact and midsize appliances.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

Are you kidding? A Cadillac Zeta would be fantastic! It would be RWD, which is what all the top-tier luxury cars ride on. The Caprice PPV and a Cadillac sedan riding the same platform, hmmm... just like the 'circa '96 Caprice and Fleetwood, and for decades before that. Natural.

For Cadillac to use a Malibu platform is just a tad less brilliant.

Edited October 28, 2011 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

And there never was a FWD Chevy on an Aurora platform. Cadillac and Oldsmobile were much closer in the GM heirarchy than Cadillac and Chevrolet. Except when the J-bodies were in full effect, of course.

[hyperv6]

Butt... I thought FWD was supposed to cure all traction woes?

That is what many people believe because it is easier for them to drive if they have no skills.

Simple physics prevent it from having more traction with weight transfer. In non performance applications it is leass an issues.

[hyperv6]

Problem with FWD or even an AWD transverse engine is they usually have 60/40 weight distribution. Secondly, at over 275 hp or so, FWD cars torque steer and have understeer as well. And my guess is the XTS suspension won't be set up to tackle the Nurburgring, it is going to be Lexus-level floating.

The Lacrosse isn't even Lexus level floating. I expect the XTS to be sportier and stiffer than that (probably with Magnaride).

GM also also virtually eliminated torque steer with hi-per strut so that the only time you'd even notice it were if you were turning a corner on a cobble stone road at full throttle.... not something done in typical driving.

Magnaride is going to be what sets this car appart. it is an amazing system and Cadillac is already marketing it effectivly with the CTS V.If anyone has not sampled this system they should to better understand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGurNvxMLPg

Also, the XTS is most likely going to be AWD for most models with just the FWD going to the base model for livery.

[Drew Dowdell]

Somehow, I don't think you would be protesting if Cadillac slummed around enough to pick up a lowly Chevy Zeta sedan to build its car on.

Of course not. Zeta is RWD which is automatically superior to any FWD platform. FWD is appropriate for subcompact, compact and midsize appliances.

Are you kidding? A Cadillac Zeta would be fantastic! It would be RWD, which is what all the top-tier luxury cars ride on. The Caprice PPV and a Cadillac sedan riding the same platform, hmmm... just like the 'circa '96 Caprice and Fleetwood, and for decades before that. Natural.

For Cadillac to use a Malibu platform is just a tad less brilliant.

So then comparing the XTS to a K-Car is just you two being stubborn old men? It's ok to share a platform with a soon to be out of production Chevy but not ok to share a platform with one of the best Buicks built in years......

RWD and FWD have nothing to do with generic or not. You don't get much more generic than a 2009 Crown Victoria (or in my area, any year 3-series) and there are few cars that are anything like the Mini-Cooper or Ford Flex or Nissan Juke.

[Drew Dowdell]

And there never was a FWD Chevy on an Aurora platform. Cadillac and Oldsmobile were much closer in the GM heirarchy than Cadillac and Chevrolet. Except when the J-bodies were in full effect, of course.

The XTS shares more with the Lacrosse and 9-5 than it does with the Malibu or Regal. Until there is a new Impala on Epsy2, the Buick is the XTS's closest cousin, hence my comparison to the Aurora.

But if you insist, the STS shared it's platform with lowly, mundane, generic, rental car, Pontiac!!!!!!

[smk4565]

Probably what will hurt this car the most is size. Isn't it expected to be 204 inches long? That is bigger than a 300C, LaCrosse, Avalon, RL, etc. Only the MKS is that big, aside from the Equus and $100k luxury sedans. I am not sure that there are many buyers for full size sedans (longer than 200 inches) anymore. Especially with better space packaging allowing more interior space in mid-size cars.

Edited October 29, 2011 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS is going for Camry like volume now?

[FAPTurbo]

Wait. First it's FWD and now it's 'size?' I think a lot of people would be thrilled about a large car that gets excellent city fuel economy. Remember, it's an urban cruiser for wealthy people who are more interested in Newegg than the Nurburgring

[balthazar]

s-class is 206.5", but perhaps smk is right- mercedes has to offer 13 grand off the sticker to move small volume it does.

I yearn for the day I daily drove my 213" Pontiac. That was a nice size (the 79.6" width was great, too).

[smk4565]

The XTS is going for Camry like volume now?

No, but the car closest in size is the MKS, and that doesn't sell. The Chrysler 300 is 198.6 inches long, the Genesis and Acura RL are smaller. The LaCrosse (come 2012) is the biggest Buick and it is only a couple inches longer than the 1997-2004 Regal. So people are moving away form big cars, if the XTS is 6-7 inches longer than a Chrysler 300 which is already a big car, it may be too big for a lot of buyers.

[Drew Dowdell]

The more SMK brings up points about the XTS he finds objectionable, the more I seem to like the car. In many ways, it is filling a niche that very few are in and many have abandoned..... not because the niche won't sell, but because it's been neglected for so long there hasn't been an excellent entry in it to sell well for years.

Put it this way, I like big cars that are on the softer side.

The MKS is square in the middle of my tastes, yet I wouldn't buy one because of too many screw ups on the interior. Aye, she has a fine engine, but the windows switches and steering wheel switches are right out of the F-150. You can look into the heater vents and see foam insulation behind them. The interior was a huge letdown for me.

The RL doesn't have the looks nor the hardware. Volvo is too out of the main stream for the S80 to sell.

If GM can do the interior right, the XTS will sell and sell well... and possibly even sell to me.

[balthazar]

Again we're asked to believe people shop for cars with a tape measure in hand.

[ocnblu]

I see no problem with it being 204 inches long. I just wish more than 3" of that went into hood length. Who knows, maybe this Malibu Brougham XL will be cool. It has to be cooler than the RL and MKS.

[smk4565]

We don't know what the fuel economy is on the XTS, and we don't know the engine. Currently, fuel economy isn't something Cadillac does well, but perhaps because of that they will make it a focus going forward.

The S-class is big, but it so expensive and many of the buyers may ride in the back seat. You can spend $112,000 on a nicely equipped S-class with a V6 engine, no other V6 sedan can command pricing like that. The S-class is a different animal, it is hard to compare other cars in terms of sales volume or pricing to it.

[Drew Dowdell]

judging by exterior looks alone, I think the XTS will own the segment.

OCN, your 3" hood extension will be coming in the form of the ZTS

[ocnblu]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

[smk4565]

The ace in the hole that the XTS has is there are very few large sedans left (that aren't near $100k) and very few large FWD. The MKS is the only car on the market right now in this spot, and I agree with Drew about the execution of the interior, and how Lincolns always seem to get F150 and Taurus switches and trim in them. The old Lincoln LS had window switches that looked like they came off an Econoline van. The chance for success is that there is only one direct competitor to the XTS, and it isn't a very good car.

[ocnblu]

No Drewbert, I was saying the hood on the XTS concept appears to be only 3" long. A 3" extension will only make it 6" long. It needs to be longer than 6", silly goose.

[Drew Dowdell]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

The last STS before it went RWD was on the Aurora platform. The last Bonneville was also on the Aurora platform, it even got Cadillac's Northstar.

[smk4565]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

The last STS before it went RWD was on the Aurora platform. The last Bonneville was also on the Aurora platform, it even got Cadillac's Northstar.

But the Aurora platform is probably the greatest platform of all time, in the world.

[Drew Dowdell]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

The last STS before it went RWD was on the Aurora platform. The last Bonneville was also on the Aurora platform, it even got Cadillac's Northstar.

But the Aurora platform is probably the greatest platform of all time, in the world.

In it's day, it was the best of all of the front drive platforms thus worthy of Cadillac, but the world has since moved on.

[ocnblu]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

The last STS before it went RWD was on the Aurora platform. The last Bonneville was also on the Aurora platform, it even got Cadillac's Northstar.

Shirley you cannot be serious. ORLY? Oh, I thought it was the Aurora V8 in the Bonneville GXP.

Edited October 29, 2011 by ocnblu

[smk4565]

The Aurora V8 was also the greatest engine of all time, in the world. The Bonneville GXP had the 275 hp Northstar.

[Z-06]

What STS shared a platform with a Pontiac?

The last STS before it went RWD was on the Aurora platform. The last Bonneville was also on the Aurora platform, it even got Cadillac's Northstar.

But the Aurora platform is probably the greatest platform of all time, in the world.

The Aurora V8 was also the greatest engine of all time, in the world. The Bonneville GXP had the 275 hp Northstar.

Considering you own it and that you seek perfection, luxury, elusive refinement rags talk about but have no clue, it has to be the greatest car of all time.

[Robert Hall]

The Aurora V8 was also the greatest engine of all time, in the world. The Bonneville GXP had the 275 hp Northstar.

Wow...I don't remember that. Don't remember the Northstar in the Bonneville..for some reason, I thought the GXP had a supercharged V6...

[smk4565]

Bonneville SSEi had the supercharged 3800. The Bonneville GXP had a Northstar, I think they only made it in 2004. It was 1-2 model years only.

[balthazar]

Well worthy of a pic; an athletic, crisply-tailored sedan:

[hyperv6]

My buddy just sold his GXP. They made the for several years but hey really did not sell too well as the sticker neared $40K and the car was getting old.

The GXP bumpers andf styling I feel was the best looking FWD Bonnie to date. They cleaned it up and lost the dated ribbed cladding. The suspension was better tuned on this too vs the SSEI. I drove both back to back and it just seemed like it had a better ride and handled just a little better.

I still would take the G8 over this in a performance applications but this car was a very good drive even with the FWD.

Edited October 29, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

Well worthy of a pic; an athletic, crisply-tailored sedan:

don't show a pic of the interior

[Robert Hall]

Well worthy of a pic; an athletic, crisply-tailored sedan:

don't show a pic of the interior

That's when the Bonneville had 20 vents and acres of nasty gray plastic inside?

[balthazar]

don't show a pic of the interior

I've seen worse...

Stylistically- it's just the doubled vents on the pass side- the rest is not awful.

Then again, I've never been in one.