New EPA MPG figures.

[carman21]

Japanese automakers have long been known for their fuel economy even before they were known for their quality. However, this major elling point for Toyota, Honda, & Nissan will be taking a hit. Toyota's the most liberal in posting high MPG figures. The all-new Toyota 3.5L V-6 suppostedly achieves 22city/31hwy MPG. This figure is for ideal conditions, not real conditions. GM and Ford both have been using realistic figures for its engines since the early 2000s. If you look back, Ford's 3.0L DOHC V-6 actually out performed Toyota's 3.0L DOHC V-6 in ideal conditions. Ford downgraded its 3.0L V-6 durin g the 2000 MY Taurus revamp. Oldsmobile's 3.5L DOHC V-6 had better MPG scores than GM's new 3.6L HF V-6. GM & Ford are being conservative to make way for the new realistic EPA MPG estimates program due to take effect by 2010. The last thing they need right now is to rebuild their rep just to have it smashed by the new EPA sytem. Toyota for now will reap the rewards of using the more idealistic system that is currently in place.

Toyota's 3.5L DOHC V-6

Idealistic MPG

22/31

Realistic MPG

21/29

Realistic w/o Dual VVT & DI

19/27

GM 3.6L DOHC V-6

Realistic

18/27

Realistic with Dual VVT & DI

20/29

Idealistic with Dual VVT & DI

21/31

Hey, these figures are aweful similar! Why, because, engineering principles work the same in all applications. Two similarly sized engines when equiped with similar technologies will perform similarly whether its hp or MPG.

Toyota's & Honda's Hybrids have the most to lose b y this new system. They could have MPG ratings reduced by as much as 30-40%. While most Japanese engines will go down 5-10% percent. It appears that the new AFM or DOD engines are the only engines that deliver on the promise of high MPG. The next gen DOD systems will be continously variable, meaning they will optimise the fuel economy at all times despite how the driver drives in real world conditions as is the problem with hybrids.

The most important fact of this is Detriot has been given another oppurtunity to beat Japan on their primary weapon MPG. Dteriot better take advantage of this oppurtunity of a lifetime. They may never get another chance to so blantenly crush them on a faux strong point.

Edited April 11, 2006 by carman21

[Sixty8panther]

Good, time to even the playing field. No one likes a cheater.

[Snate]

MPG is set by the EPA...however I wouldn't be surprised is companies like Toyota figured out a way to make their cars do really good on EPA tests..yet not in the real world.

[mustang84]

This is a very interesting post, but do you have a link where you got this information from? I'd really like to bookmark the page for future reference.

[VenSeattle]

Don't forget Nissan won certain CAFE exemptions until 2010. So Nissan is definitely in a world of trouble at the end of the decade if things don't change for them.

[sciguy_0504]

MPG is set by the EPA...however I wouldn't be surprised is companies like Toyota figured out a way to make their cars do really good on EPA tests..yet not in the real world.

There is a way to make a car do well on the EPA tests. It's called building the powertrain around the tests. Toyota is not the only one to do this either. We have seen real world figures for the GMT900 and 20MPG (or whatever it is) is a dream.

By the way, I do not see any difference in the above numbers. A source would help, too.

[Snate]

There is a way to make a car do well on the EPA tests.  It's called building the powertrain around the tests.  Toyota is not the only one to do this either.  We have seen real world figures for the GMT900 and 20MPG (or whatever it is) is a dream.

By the way, I do not see any difference in the above numbers.  A source would help, too.

Yep...although at least with some GM cars I know GM didn't do everything possible to inflate the MPG..like my Cobalt for example.

[pow]

There is a way to make a car do well on the EPA tests.  It's called building the powertrain around the tests.  Toyota is not the only one to do this either.  We have seen real world figures for the GMT900 and 20MPG (or whatever it is) is a dream.

By the way, I do not see any difference in the above numbers.  A source would help, too.

This thread is just pure conjecture...

[sciguy_0504]

Another point: who is going to stop car companies from building their powertrains around the updated EPA tests?

[Drew Dowdell]

It is entirely possible to tune the engine to the test while ignoring the real world mileage.

[toyoguy]

Japanese automakers have long been known for their fuel economy even before they were known for their quality. However, this major elling point for Toyota, Honda, & Nissan will be taking a hit. Toyota's the most liberal in posting high MPG figures. The all-new Toyota 3.5L V-6 suppostedly achieves 22city/31hwy MPG. This figure is for ideal conditions, not real conditions. GM and Ford both have been using realistic figures for its engines since the early 2000s. If you look back, Ford's 3.0L DOHC V-6 actually out performed Toyota's 3.0L DOHC V-6 in ideal conditions. Ford downgraded its 3.0L V-6 durin g the 2000 MY Taurus revamp. Oldsmobile's 3.5L DOHC V-6 had better MPG scores than GM's new 3.6L HF V-6. GM & Ford are being conservative to make way for the new realistic EPA MPG estimates program due to take effect by 2010. The last thing they need right now is to rebuild their rep just to have it smashed by the new EPA sytem. Toyota for now will reap the rewards of using the more idealistic system that is currently in place.

Toyota's 3.5L DOHC V-6

Idealistic MPG

22/31

Realistic MPG

21/29

Realistic w/o Dual VVT & DI

19/27

GM 3.6L DOHC V-6

Realistic

18/27

Realistic with Dual VVT & DI

20/29

Idealistic with Dual VVT & DI

21/31

Hey, these figures are aweful similar! Why, because, engineering principles work the same in all applications. Two similarly sized engines when equiped with similar technologies will perform similarly whether its hp or MPG.

Toyota's & Honda's Hybrids have the most to lose b y this new system. They could have MPG ratings reduced by as much as 30-40%. While most Japanese engines will go down 5-10% percent. It appears that the new AFM or DOD engines are the only engines that deliver on the promise of high MPG. The next gen DOD systems will be continously variable, meaning they will optimise the fuel economy at all times despite how the driver drives in real world conditions as is the problem with hybrids.

The most important fact of this is Detriot has been given another oppurtunity to beat Japan on their primary weapon MPG. Dteriot better take advantage of this oppurtunity of a lifetime. They may never get another chance to so blantenly crush them on a faux strong point.

This thread makes no sense, and is based on faulty assumptions.

[CARBIZ]

There is no way in hell that a Toyota Corolla with its low torque numbers at higher RPM numbers will get REAL WORLD mpg figures as high as they claim, nor will it beat the Cobalt with its higher torque at lower RPM numbers - not unless you drive like my grandmother.

That is the problem. Everybody (sheeple) rush out and buy Civics and Corollas because of their higher TESTED mpg numbers, but who is going to achieve those numbers in real life?

Ever drive an underpowered Corolla on the freeway? You have to be in 3rd gear to get any power! With the standard shift it is tolerable, but with automatic it is underpowered AND noisy. Mazda is much the same way.

[cmattson]

This thread makes no sense, and is based on faulty assumptions.

Draw your own conclusions:

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420d06002.pdf

Pay specific attention to page 29, where a partial table of tested vehicles is available (along with their stats). A quick explanation: The EPA is considering two tests to replace the existing one.. the new testing procedures are called "MPG-based" and "5-cycle". You can read about each of them in the document. Hybrids get their *sses handed to them -> they all experience a "welcome-to-the-real-world" type correction (which is really what is needed, IMO).

Seems to me that the Asians have again, manufactured a vehicle that exceeds a specific test and doesn't perform in real-world use. And when the EPA switches to the new standard, the EPA test will be to blame, not the agressive Asian auto manufacturers -- witness the SAE hp ratings episode.

Edited April 12, 2006 by cmattson

[Drew Dowdell]

And when the EPA switches to the new standard, the EPA test will be to blame, not the agressive Asian auto manufacturers -- witness the SAE hp ratings episode.

what he said

[Imaj]

Toyota should know that we don't live in an ideal world, lol.

[torobud]

MPG is set by the EPA...however I wouldn't be surprised is companies like Toyota figured out a way to make their cars do really good on EPA tests..yet not in the real world.

Like set the overdrive to kick in at 54 MPH right where the highway milage is tested at?

I still will take the 3800 (I had series I) with the 4 speed overdrive transmission out of my '90 Toro over any new V6 out there at 75 MPH

[Dsuupr]

Even when I'm driving with a very heavy right foot, we don't get below 36 mpg on our Cobalt. That includes 40% city driving. Normally we get around 38 to 39 mpg. My parents get approx 34 mpg on their Xa. Funny, the Xa was rated much higher than the Cobalt.

Obviously the EPA figures aren't done in a fair fashion.

[regfootball]

There is no way in hell that a Toyota Corolla with its low torque numbers at higher RPM numbers will get REAL WORLD mpg figures as high as they claim, nor will it beat the Cobalt with its higher torque at lower RPM numbers - not unless you drive like my grandmother.

  That is the problem.  Everybody (sheeple) rush out and buy Civics and Corollas because of their higher TESTED mpg numbers, but who is going to achieve those numbers in real life?

  Ever drive an underpowered Corolla on the freeway?  You have to be in 3rd gear to get any power!  With the standard shift it is tolerable, but with automatic it is underpowered AND noisy.  Mazda is much the same way.

agree. my 99 prizm corolla which had the same engine basically as what is still in the corolla now, no power for the freeway. and i had a stick. most of the time i got 30 and did get 33 on some trips. but the current corolla is heavier. mpg and accel will suck.

meanwhile, i've enjoyed the ecotec in every form i have sampled it. it is torque rich, enjoys revving and real world testimonies support 30-high thirties mpg on a regular basis even if epa numbers don't reach that.

[carman21]

hey,y is it that a moderate attack on the Japanese and Toyota in partucular is not justified in your mind. The facts are Detriots cars are show EPA MPG figures that are more conservative than their Japanese counterparts. If Toyota wants to prevent this let them just improve them so when the new system comes out that the MPG figures would little change.If it doesn't make sense then may be Toyota is in more trouble than I thought.Anyway, Detriot will benefit 110% from this new more realistic system. GM, Ford, & Chrysler would be smart to rapidly improve their engines right as the new system takes effect. Toyota MPG figures down 10-40%, GM up 10-40%, I see it happen where the roles shift and the Sheeple are shocked to be the fools that they are.

Edited April 20, 2006 by carman21

[Camino LS6]

It's simple: the asians claim all that they can legally claim and the domestics claim more conservative numbers. This sort of pattern is common in many aspects of legal/mandated ratings. For once, it looks as though it's finally going to bite the asian manfacturers in the ass. About time too.

[sciguy_0504]

I guess we will see when the new figures are made public.

[Camino LS6]

Can't come soon enough.