Cadillac's Converj Becomes The ELR

[67impss]

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

Don't forget the W engines that are shared with VW, Audi. Bugatti, and Bently.

Today a company needs to share with divisions or it will need to share with other companies. BMW has worked with GM and now is talking to Toyota to share cost on new technologies and parts.

Development cost are so high any more the cost need to be spread out as much as they can. This is why even cross town rivals GM and Ford shared funding in the transaxle they co developed.

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

you mean like the V6 that the E, C, SLK, R, ML, GLK, and CLS use that comes from the Sprinter?

The Sprinter originally had an inline five cylinder, replaced by the 72 degree V6 that is used in the E-class and S-class (and Jeep for a while). But the engine makes more power in the sedans than it does in a Sprinter. The 3.5 liter gas V6 in all those cars is a 60 degree V.

And I never complained about sharing a V6 with Cadillac and Buick/Chevy, because you can tweak the engine for each car. As they do with a CTS and a Traverse, or as Honda or Nissan do. Although they both have 3.5 and 3.7 liter V6s for some differentiation. My complaint was V-series cars sharing an engine with a Chevy. An AMG engine for example is only in an AMG product.

The addition of 2 cylinders to the V makes it incapable of being tuned differently in what way and why would the tune need be changed between a CTSv & Corvette? I see that the exterior package cosmetically change and sound deadening but the Vette is the Chevy halo where as CTSv is has or will be the mid level performance Cadillac. The Vette is so over the top for a value brand that it is more than worthy to be under the Caddys bonnet. What other manufactures hand builds every engine in a value brand model?

[hyperv6]

Ferrari uses the Cadillac Magnaride. May as well tear all my Ferrari posters down in shame.

Sharing is a part of the industry no matter who or what. Getr used to it as it will not go away. The key is for GM to take these parts and make very different feeling and looking cars with them. GM will do different platforms and engines where it is affordable but they will not compromise a car in several other areas just to do a one off engine.

I do wish GM would dress up the engines in the Cadillac a little more and dump the engine cover. They could make it look a lot better with more aluminum and color. My Fiero 2.8 looks like a whole different engine from the 2.8 Chevy of the same year, The use of aluminum, powder coat and stainless 12 point fasteners make for a much better looking package. People see the engine and think I did it since most of GM's other engines in that era were so plain.

[Robert Hall]

Wonder if the production version will be at Detroit...or too soon?

[Drew Dowdell]

Too soon I think.... and they are already doing the ATS at Detroit. They need to save something for Chicago and/or New York.

[Justin Bimmer]

Hyper, atcadillac you can option to have a bigger engine cover!

[dwightlooi]

And I never complained about sharing a V6 with Cadillac and Buick/Chevy, because you can tweak the engine for each car. As they do with a CTS and a Traverse, or as Honda or Nissan do. Although they both have 3.5 and 3.7 liter V6s for some differentiation. My complaint was V-series cars sharing an engine with a Chevy. An AMG engine for example is only in an AMG product.

The important questions are:-

• Will having a unique engine architecture for Cadillac lead to substantially better performance and/or refinement
  
• Whether a majority of Cadillac buyers will want to pay an additional $5000~8000 for a unique engine architecture built in small volumes
  

The answer to the first question is especially critical since it heavily influences the answer to the second. The extra cost becomes an especially hard sell when it is not backed by substantial superiority.

The current breed of I4 and V6 engines shared between Cadillac and Chevy matches the performance levels of competing luxury marques so I do not see room for substantial improvements to be hard by going to an independent engine architecture. A 270hp 2.0 liter turbo or a 315~323hp 3.6 liter V6 is up there with the very best from Audi, BMW, M-B, Acura, Infiniti and Lexus. Although I find the DI system on GM engines to be insufficiently "silenced" -- this however is more of a sound deadening issue and not really an engine architecture issue.

On the V8 front, the LS3/L99 pushrod engines currently offer lower weight, smaller size and better fuel economy than competing DOHC V8s of similar output. This is an advantage to be capitalized on not something to frown at. The upcoming Generation V smallblock engines will bring VVT, cylinder deactivation and direct injection to bear, so I fully expect them to be competitive.

Given the current landscape, I personally do not support the idea of doing a unique engine architecture for Cadillac and/or Buick. However, I do find that there is room of more substantial tuning differences between engines destined for Chevies and those slated for Caddies. One area, for example, is in fuel requirements. While the typical Chevy buyer will probably pay a notable amount of attention as to whether the car he buys will drink regular unleaded, somebody sinking 40, 50, 60 or 70K on a luxury car is much less likely to care. The difference between 87 octane and and 91 octane is a good 0.5~1.0 points in compression ratio. Higher compression equals more power as well as slightly better fuel economy. Hence, I'll like to see Cadillac V6s and V8s feature a compression bump along with the expected 5~7% power increase at the expense of requiring a 91 octane recommendation. I'll also like to see additional silencing on the Cadillac and Buck engines -- especially for the medium frequency DI groans.

[smk4565]

The addition of 2 cylinders to the V makes it incapable of being tuned differently in what way and why would the tune need be changed between a CTSv & Corvette? I see that the exterior package cosmetically change and sound deadening but the Vette is the Chevy halo where as CTSv is has or will be the mid level performance Cadillac. The Vette is so over the top for a value brand that it is more than worthy to be under the Caddys bonnet. What other manufactures hand builds every engine in a value brand model?

AMG does.

The CTS-V engine is not hand built, it is built on an assembly line in Silao, Mexico (where they make the Avalanche, Suburban Yukon XL and Escalade ESV/EXT). The Corvette ZR1 has a hand built engine, and I have read the Gran Sport engine is hand built because of the dry sump oil system. Those are built in Michigan.

Aside from that, I see the problem as the Corvette engine is not made to be "standard of the world" in noise, vibration and refinement. A V-series Cadillac should be fast, but also refined, it is still a luxury car.

[smk4565]

And I never complained about sharing a V6 with Cadillac and Buick/Chevy, because you can tweak the engine for each car. As they do with a CTS and a Traverse, or as Honda or Nissan do. Although they both have 3.5 and 3.7 liter V6s for some differentiation. My complaint was V-series cars sharing an engine with a Chevy. An AMG engine for example is only in an AMG product.

The important questions are:-

• Will having a unique engine architecture for Cadillac lead to substantially better performance and/or refinement
  
• Whether a majority of Cadillac buyers will want to pay an additional $5000~8000 for a unique engine architecture built in small volumes
  

The answer to the first question is especially critical since it heavily influences the answer to the second. The extra cost becomes an especially hard sell when it is not backed by substantial superiority.

The current breed of I4 and V6 engines shared between Cadillac and Chevy matches the performance levels of competing luxury marques so I do not see room for substantial improvements to be hard by going to an independent engine architecture. A 270hp 2.0 liter turbo or a 315~323hp 3.6 liter V6 is up there with the very best from Audi, BMW, M-B, Acura, Infiniti and Lexus. Although I find the DI system on GM engines to be insufficiently "silenced" -- this however is more of a sound deadening issue and not really an engine architecture issue.

On the V8 front, the LS3/L99 pushrod engines currently offer lower weight, smaller size and better fuel economy than competing DOHC V8s of similar output. This is an advantage to be capitalized on not something to frown at. The upcoming Generation V smallblock engines will bring VVT, cylinder deactivation and direct injection to bear, so I fully expect them to be competitive.

Given the current landscape, I personally do not support the idea of doing a unique engine architecture for Cadillac and/or Buick. However, I do find that there is room of more substantial tuning differences between engines destined for Chevies and those slated for Caddies. One area, for example, is in fuel requirements. While the typical Chevy buyer will probably pay a notable amount of attention as to whether the car he buys will drink regular unleaded, somebody sinking 40, 50, 60 or 70K on a luxury car is much less likely to care. The difference between 87 octane and and 91 octane is a good 0.5~1.0 points in compression ratio. Higher compression equals more power as well as slightly better fuel economy. Hence, I'll like to see Cadillac V6s and V8s feature a compression bump along with the expected 5~7% power increase at the expense of requiring a 91 octane recommendation. I'll also like to see additional silencing on the Cadillac and Buck engines -- especially for the medium frequency DI groans.

I agree on the differentiation of the V6. Making a 280-300 hp V6 for Chevy and a Cadillac V6 with a few different parts and higher compression ratio with 320-325 hp is a good way to start, and they are basically on that path. Nissan/Ford/Honda all do it with the 3.5 liter V6, then the 3.7 liter versions for Infiniti/Lincoln/Acura. GM could go down that road too with 2 displacements or maybe a supercharger on Cadillac V6s. Either way there should be something to set the Cadillac V6 apart from the Chevy/Buick versions, even if it is just 25 hp and maybe quieter operation.

I disagree though about the V-series engine, and a Cadillac V8 in general. Cadillac should have a DOHC V8 that is theirs only. $5,000 extra isn't that much on a V-series product. V-series isn't supposed to be "cheap value" it is supposed to be "standard of the world." And the Audi A8 gets 28 mpg highway, and the Mercedes E550 coupe gets 27 mpg so good fuel economy can be had from a DOHC V8. The Mercedes V8 has the same highway mileage as a CTS V6 and the Merc has an extra 243 lb-ft of torque. That is a considerable difference.

[hyperv6]

Hyper, atcadillac you can option to have a bigger engine cover!

I know the Camaro has options on different color plastic covers. LOL!

I really would like to see them put the effort into the Cadillac engine as they did in the ZR1. I would leave off the hood window but they should have the engine to the point you could open it and people would say wow and whats under the plastic plastic. I know they use the covers for sound deadening but I really think in the V a litle engine sound will not hurt it a bit. But even on the 3.6 they should style the engine and not just slap a cover over it.

[hyperv6]

Too soon I think.... and they are already doing the ATS at Detroit. They need to save something for Chicago and/or New York.

I would not expect much in even spy photo's till next August.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

I could see it in the flag ship, sports car and V series. But till GM gets Cadillac supplies with new and more models I don't see them doing this engine soon. At some point if they want to move up they need to set themselves apart.

GM really needs to start leaking more info on new products. Since the Chapter 11 we have had too few things to debate.

Edited December 7, 2011 by hyperv6

[Z-06]

Or how abut the shared engines between Audi and Lamborghini! The cheapening of Lamborghini with a parts bin engine is unconscionable.

Both are premium brands though, and they share engines between the R8 and Gallardo.

BS. A $114,000 R8 sharing engine with $182,000 Lamborghini is same as a $30,000 Buick sharing engine with $50,000 Cadillac.

Audi may be premium but Lamborghini is supercar.

[balthazar]

^ Damn straight, but stop talking sense, Z.

[smk4565]

Or how abut the shared engines between Audi and Lamborghini! The cheapening of Lamborghini with a parts bin engine is unconscionable.

Both are premium brands though, and they share engines between the R8 and Gallardo.

BS. A $114,000 R8 sharing engine with $182,000 Lamborghini is same as a $30,000 Buick sharing engine with $50,000 Cadillac.

Audi may be premium but Lamborghini is supercar.

The R8 V10 is $150,000 base and $199,000 for the GT model. The $114,000 R8 gives you a V8, not a Lambo engine.

Cadillac though goes beyond the engine sharing, they share a lot of platforms and other bits. Escalade/Tahoe, ELR/Volt, XTS/LaCrosse, SRX/Equinox. There is a lot of similarity there, the CTS is the only Cadillac that sets itself apart. 5-6 years ago Cadillac had more unique models, it seems lately they are becoming more and more like the rest of GM. That trend is what bothers me.

[smk4565]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

[Robert Hall]

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

True enough..if a company that was recently known for just vile FWD generics can engineer and build a modern RWD model w/ a DOHC V8, you would think GM certainly could...

[Z-06]

Read my first post, I also said VW shares with Seat

Or how abut the shared engines between Audi and Lamborghini! The cheapening of Lamborghini with a parts bin engine is unconscionable.

Both are premium brands though, and they share engines between the R8 and Gallardo.

BS. A $114,000 R8 sharing engine with $182,000 Lamborghini is same as a $30,000 Buick sharing engine with $50,000 Cadillac.

Audi may be premium but Lamborghini is supercar.

The R8 V10 is $150,000 base and $199,000 for the GT model. The $114,000 R8 gives you a V8, not a Lambo engine.

Cadillac though goes beyond the engine sharing, they share a lot of platforms and other bits. Escalade/Tahoe, ELR/Volt, XTS/LaCrosse, SRX/Equinox. There is a lot of similarity there, the CTS is the only Cadillac that sets itself apart. 5-6 years ago Cadillac had more unique models, it seems lately they are becoming more and more like the rest of GM. That trend is what bothers me.

I was just calling your engine comment BS. I agree VW also shares a lot of platforms and other bits with Audi, Seat, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley.

[67impss]

The addition of 2 cylinders to the V makes it incapable of being tuned differently in what way and why would the tune need be changed between a CTSv & Corvette? I see that the exterior package cosmetically change and sound deadening but the Vette is the Chevy halo where as CTSv is has or will be the mid level performance Cadillac. The Vette is so over the top for a value brand that it is more than worthy to be under the Caddys bonnet. What other manufactures hand builds every engine in a value brand model?

AMG does.

The CTS-V engine is not hand built, it is built on an assembly line in Silao, Mexico (where they make the Avalanche, Suburban Yukon XL and Escalade ESV/EXT). The Corvette ZR1 has a hand built engine, and I have read the Gran Sport engine is hand built because of the dry sump oil system. Those are built in Michigan.

Aside from that, I see the problem as the Corvette engine is not made to be "standard of the world" in noise, vibration and refinement. A V-series Cadillac should be fast, but also refined, it is still a luxury car.

So when did AMG become Benz's loss leader? I thought that was Smarts place.

"A V-series Cadillac should be fast, but also refined, it is still a luxury car." That is why it has the trim/tune that it has.

Per GM PowerTrain

Overview

More than sheer performance, the LSA balances great power with exceptional refinement. Everything from the pistons to the aesthetic engine cover was carefully selected and tuned to deliver quiet performance. An advanced, sixth-generation Eaton supercharger with high-twist four-lobe rotors is a large contributor to the engine's quiet high performance. It enables a broad power band with almost imperceptible operation.

GM engineers created 370 different power simulations to optimize the LSA. It has been validated beyond 100,000 miles and has accumulated more than 6,400 hours of dynamometer testing. During testing, it was run more than 270 consecutive hours at wide-open throttle without a failure, and it completed actual and simulated 24-hour track tests.

I cede the hand built of every Vette engine my gray matter had failed me on that point though I know of no other Entry brand that hand builds any engine let alone to this level of performance.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

Do you want to spend their budget on a low volume engine or do you want to get Cadillac back to selling more than just two car lines? I feel they should have their engine too but I also kno the reality and would be just fine with the couple thousand CTSV with a Camaro engine at near 600 Hp. The engine is a need not a priority.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

[hyperv6]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

Sorry but a little factor of Time, Man Power and Money are still a controling factor in the time it takes to address all the issues at GM.

Even with the new money they can not shorten time it takes to develop a car. Also they can not do them all at once as there is still only so much money they can spend at one time and limited staff to do the work. It would be a great thing to turn GM around in only 3 years but you still have to deal with the reality.

Once they have past the time line for life model life cycles and for the new product they have and had time to develople the new product with the new money. This time line should be 5-10 years post Bankruptcy not counting outside factors as the economy and car sales. At this point all bets are off and they have had the time to address most issues.

Lets face it Ford has a head start and they are still rebuilding.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

Engines aren't just an app you can download on your smartphone for a dollar. They take years and years of development work.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

Engines aren't just an app you can download on your smartphone for a dollar. They take years and years of development work.

True, but at some point, we can't just keep using bankruptcy as an excuse for GM always being behind.... as far as the subject of modern OHC V8s, Ford has been building modern OHC V8s for 20 years now...GM tried and gave up (Northstar).

Edited December 7, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

The Overhead Valve, Pushrod V8 we know today is actually newer technology than an Over Head Cam V8.

and I certainly wouldn't consider the Ford 4.6 modular to be more modern than any of the recent GM Small blocks. In fact, it was never really able to beat out even the LT-1 in performance from the factory.

[balthazar]

^ Well, according to the wiki links, Buick designed the OHV engine and this would be circa 1900. Wiki states OHC/OHV is circa 1920.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

Engines aren't just an app you can download on your smartphone for a dollar. They take years and years of development work.

And a lot of money even for a well off company.

[Drew Dowdell]

^ Well, according to the wiki links, Buick designed the OHV engine and this would be circa 1900. Wiki states OHC/OHV is circa 1920.

as we know it today

[balthazar]

Ahhh...

[smk4565]

Cadillac could do a engine for themselves but I would expect would be done with a partner like BMW, Lotus or one of the other smaller companies that do customer engines in low volumes at a resonable price. GM could design it but someone else would built it. Kind of like the Merc built ZR1.

If Hyundai can design and build a DOHC V8 from scratch, then I am sure Cadillac can also. They did it for about 90 years, I'm sure they can do it again.

Hyundai is also not coming out of chapter 11 in need to revamp several divisions and with no current V8 design to put into production.

At some point the bankruptcy excuse isn't going to be valid anymore....

Agreed! People keep blaming bankruptcy, that was a self inflicted wound and GM still uses some of the same thinking that got them into that mess in the first place. It's time to move on and compete, if they can't afford to fund Cadillac then maybe they still have too many models, too many brands.