Cadillac's Converj Becomes The ELR

[Camino LS6]

Agreed completely, Cubitar.

[smk4565]

And here is why Cadillac, Lexus, Lincoln, Acura etc all trail the Germans. Their cars for the most part are made to not go above 100 mph, they are engineered to not do anything more than run of the mill everyday driving. Mercedes engineers their cars to travel smoothly at 150 mph, thus their chassis are so solid. The American and Japanese luxury brands don't strive for that high standard, they are satisfied with mid-level, and that is why they are chasers, not leaders.

An entirely absurd (and incorrect) statement.

CTS, STS, SRX (either generation) and even an old 2001 Eldorado would like to have a word with you in the back SMK.

Hell, a '96 Fleetwood as a top speed over 140mph.

Just because the car has a top speed of 140 mph, doesn't mean it will be as stable at high speed autobahn cruising as an S-class, or handle the Nurburgring like a 3-series. On paper, Lexus sedans have good stats, but they don't perform or feel like a German car. Nor do the IS and GS sell like a 3-series or 5-series, because they just aren't as good.

[FAPTurbo]

You're discussing top-speeds in a thread about electric cars? Dear God, have you lost sight of the entire purpose of the Voltec architecture?

[smk4565]

You're discussing top-speeds in a thread about electric cars? Dear God, have you lost sight of the entire purpose of the Voltec architecture?

Well my main point about the speed is the Delta and Epsilon platforms are not made for high speed travel or razor sharp handling. Same with the Accord and Camry platforms. That is why those platforms are bad to use on performance/luxury cars, and they the Germans are the luxury leaders.

The problem with Lincoln and Acura is they offer the same performance as a Ford or Honda, Lincoln is basically a trim level that is why they run a risk of going out of business. Cadillac should not be a Buick or Cadillac trim level, and changing the sheet metal doesn't solve the problem.

[Drew Dowdell]

Delta was what the Cobalt SS was built on. It kept up with high end BMWs on the 'Ring.

The Insignia was indeed designed for the autobahn... like... specifically.

[pow]

Frankly, what matters is whether or not the ELR will sell -- not the purity of its drivetrain layout, its chassis engineering or whatnot. If it looks stunning, feels well made, and is reasonably priced, people will buy the ELR, front-drive Delta platform or not. BMW can worry about driving dynamics and all that geeky stuff, because that's what they build their reputation on. Cadillac is different. Cadillac isn't German. We have no autobahns. Over here, contemporary American luxury should be about traveling in style and comfort.

[ocnblu]

I am absolutely LOVE ING the fact that in the Pebble Beach gallery of photos, everybody is tripping over themselves to photograph and investigate the Ciel while COMPLETELY ignoring the Delta-based ELR. If anything is more obvious...

[Drew Dowdell]

The Ciel is new and never before seen. I've seen the Converg in person at least twice now.

[Camino LS6]

SMK, have you not noticed that GM regularly sets records at "the 'ring" when they test everything from Chevy to Caddy there?

Your point is non-existent.

The truth is that very few cars built today have any trouble being stable at triple digit speeds.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Camino LS6

[smk4565]

I agree that sales matter but look at what sells in the $50k and higher luxury segment. Front wheel drive sure doesn't. Even at $40-50k look how the RL and MKS struggle and the DTS went from 100,000 sales a year to 25,000 a year.

I support the idea of an electric Cadillac but it should not be a Chevy clone. Cadillac deserves better than to be a Volt trim level. Make an electric CTS, that would be much better.

Cadillac has a second issue. They struggle big time selling high dollar cars (xlr, sts-v). Rumor is the ELR is $60,000, it has to be special. A volt isn't special otherwise it would sell.

[Drew Dowdell]

The rumor is wrong. The ELR will specifically undercut the Tesla S by a few thousand. Meaning the ELR will probably base just above the Volt's current top end (remember there are Volt price cuts coming)

[Drew Dowdell]

One thing that bugs me... Why wouldn't they call it the ELC? 1. It's a coupe 2. It more evokes the thought of electricity.

[ocnblu]

It is a beautiful design, but the mechanicals let it down big time. If this were RWD with turbo Ecotec, a manual transmission and no needless trendy electrical powertrain interference, it would be viewed as more authentic, and therefore more desirable. More "permanent", less "fleeting".

To me, the sudden reversal into producing this car comes across as an indicator GM will try to recoup some forecast losses on the Voltec propulsion system by sticking this stunner of a body over a ho-hum powertrain and jacking the price, and profit per unit, up.

Edited August 20, 2011 by ocnblu

[smk4565]

Agreed with Oldsmoboi about the ELC name. And I agree with Oncblu about putting a good body on an otherwise underwhelming platform/powertrain.

[ZL-1]

Agreed with Oldsmoboi about the ELC name. And I agree with Oncblu about putting a good body on an otherwise underwhelming platform/powertrain.

It's as the saying goes: sex sells. So a nice body makes the car appealing.

EDIT - It's much more important how these good looks translate into the ATS, the NG CTS and the eventual RWD Omega-based flagship.

I think that Oldsmoboi is most probably right about the pricing strategy. In general, it's easier to convince people to pay 50K for a Cadillac badge than for a bow-tie: actually, I think the ideal launch strategy for Voltec and for all major tech innovations GM chooses to introduce should be Cadillac --> Buick --> Chevrolet. GM needs to milk the market a bit more on the tech innovation front.

Edited August 20, 2011 by ZL-1

[hyperv6]

While RWD is still the first choice for performance it is still very ignorent to discount how well some FWD cars can handle.

The Chevy Cobalt SS on a very old Delta 1 runs very close to the new Camaro SS in lap times at the ring. There is a very good video of it making laps and even getting air time. Even my top heavy HHR SS turnd a mid 8 min lap besting some very good performance cars and sports cars. Mark Steilow, John Heinricy and others at GM Perfomance have prove to be able to tune FWD, RWD and AWD to perform with little drama and make it easy for anyone to drive any of the fast no matter if it is a new car, old platform or SUV. Many of these GMPD people are now tuning these cars from the start and not fixing an old mistake.

Rest assured that the Cadillac will handel very well and we also need to keep in mind this is not a M5 killer anyways.

[smk4565]

Cadillac may be able to sell a few at $50k, but not many. Cadillac has never figured out how to sell a high dollar car. The Alante failed, XLR failed, STS-V (and really the whole STS line) failed also. The problem is Cadillac's current customer base doesn't spend over $50k on a car, and many of their conquests are Lincoln or bottom end Lexus drivers that also don't spend over $50k on a car. If Cadillac wants the $50-100k car shopper, they have to convert people that for years have been buying Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Jaguar. That customer set is not going to be wowed by a FWD compact with 150 hp, or even if with a 25% increase to the Volt's power, it is still 187 hp. Nor do they want a 17 foot long FWD barge with chrome and vertical tail lamps. All that is going to attract are people trading in Town Cars that are confused as to why Lincoln doesn't make it anymore.

All these quick fixes and stop gaps are going to come back to haunt. If/when they ever do make a S-class fighter, how much credibility is it going to have when their line up is full of front drive, Chevy/Buick based cars. This is partly what hurt Pontiac, how could they be a performance brand (G8 and Solstice) when you have crap like the G3, G5, badge jobs like the Torrent and Montana, and a mediocre at best G6. Brands need image, and you think GM would have learned that after how they mishandled Olds, Pontiac, and Saturn.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac may be able to sell a few at $50k, but not many. Cadillac has never figured out how to sell a high dollar car. The Alante failed, XLR failed, STS-V (and really the whole STS line) failed also. The problem is Cadillac's current customer base doesn't spend over $50k on a car, and many of their conquests are Lincoln or bottom end Lexus drivers that also don't spend over $50k on a car. If Cadillac wants the $50-100k car shopper, they have to convert people that for years have been buying Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Jaguar. That customer set is not going to be wowed by a FWD compact with 150 hp, or even if with a 25% increase to the Volt's power, it is still 187 hp. Nor do they want a 17 foot long FWD barge with chrome and vertical tail lamps. All that is going to attract are people trading in Town Cars that are confused as to why Lincoln doesn't make it anymore.

All these quick fixes and stop gaps are going to come back to haunt. If/when they ever do make a S-class fighter, how much credibility is it going to have when their line up is full of front drive, Chevy/Buick based cars. This is partly what hurt Pontiac, how could they be a performance brand (G8 and Solstice) when you have crap like the G3, G5, badge jobs like the Torrent and Montana, and a mediocre at best G6. Brands need image, and you think GM would have learned that after how they mishandled Olds, Pontiac, and Saturn.

Cadillac has yet to build a car worth more than $50K other than the CTSV.

The STS and DTS were cars not worth the money in class as there were better cars available. For Cadillac to be able to sell cars at a higher price and class they must prove themselves first with the ATS and new CTS. the present CTS shows GM can do it right but they need to own the lower classes before they can expect people to shell out $80K on a new Cadillac.

GM can do it as they have proven already with the Chevy Nox and Cruze they can build a car people want and will pay a higher price [by Chevy standards]. Many here predicted the Cruze would flop but GM found the sweet spot with the consumers and they are making the car a hit.

The future of Cadillac will be very telling with the new Volume cars as if they can win owners there they will earn the respect and the higher dollar sale. To build a $100,000 flag ship now and just stick it out there is suicide. Cadillac need more consumer respect and more product. To be able to sell at a higher price you have to earn it. BMW present standing with the public was built on the 3 and 5 Series not the 7 Series.

Cadillac will get there but they will still have to earn it.

[ocnblu]

I predicted the Cruze would flop... and look what's happening this week.

But nobody's buying electrics and hybrids in numbers to support what tree huggers predicted... not even those tree huggers themselves.

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't at all judge an electric by it's top horsepower number. First SMK, the horsepower number you quoted for the Volt is when the car is set to standard Eco mode. Switch it to sport and you've got yourself 220hp. Second, no ICE of equal horsepower out there can beat the torque curve of an electric. As far as off the line performance is concerned, electrics have max torque at zero RPM. At a standstill, it is the torque that gets you going.

So even if the ELR comes out with a 220hp default version of the Volt drive train, some gearing tweaks will make it a very competent performer around town and up to max U.S. speeds.

[walter36]

GM needs more two door cars period. they currently only sell 3 two door cars in north america, Camaro, Corvette and CTS. wonder if it will be assembled at the same assembly plant as the Volt?

[Sixty8panther]

Yes, the naming system at Cadillac SUX!!!

IT SUX REL BAD!!! WTF - FML

That being said I wish Cadillac all the best but I gotta tell you...

it's a serious travesty that Cadillac does not make ONE real

FULL SIZE car... I mean a real big f@#kin' behemoth. This is

Cadillac we're talking about. Why do they not have at least

one low-volume production 19 foot long coupe!?

They could call it ELDORADO!

And as far as Cadillac fishing down-steam in Acura & Lexus IS

territory? I'm not a fan. Sure that's important but they need to get

back to being a powerhouse of LUXURY, not just the V-series &

Escalade. (as awesome as those may be)

[Drew Dowdell]

Eldorado was FWD for most of the nameplate's life, just saying....

[Justin Bimmer]

Looks like this car is going to be Front Wheel Drive. That's the reports I'm getting.

[Robert Hall]

Looks like this car is going to be Front Wheel Drive. That's the reports I'm getting.

Sounds like it's sharing it's platform and drivetrain w/ the Volt, which was expected.

[hyperv6]

Looks like this car is going to be Front Wheel Drive. That's the reports I'm getting.

I really did not expect that to have changed. I do expect it to ride, handle and may offer more performance. I think it will see the upgrades the Volt will get in time first and then pass them down to Chevy as they get new upgrades for the Cadillac. I expect it will show more power and longer ranges. Who is to say it has to have the same motors and battery?

So while it may be based on the Volt it will not just be a Volt with more options.

I just wonder with the slow start up and the battery concerns if this car will get pushed back or delayed.

Edited November 30, 2011 by hyperv6

[Justin Bimmer]

They had the car on display in Los Angeles.

[Drew Dowdell]

slow start up?

[Camino LS6]

The Converj is the best-looking thing Cadillac has created in ages.

FWD, or not

Voltec powertrain, or not

I sure hope that the ELR makes no changes to that beautiful design.

[Drew Dowdell]

I want to see what Cadillac can do with a Delta II interior. The Buick is already rather nice.

[smk4565]

I saw the Converj at our auto show last year, I wasn't that impressed with it. I prefer the Evoq and XLR for a 2-door. The Converj hood seemed too short and stubby. And this car could be a 4,000+ lb compact. The weight is going to be hard to overcome.

[Drew Dowdell]

it is overcome by max torque at zero RPM

[smk4565]

it is overcome by max torque at zero RPM

Which is what, like 180 lb-ft? On a car heavier than a CTS. The only way for the ELR to work is to vastly increase the power over the Volt. It has to be faster than a Chevy, handle and ride better than a Chevy, otherwise why pay for it. Cadillac selling a Volt with an interior upgrade is a page from the Lincoln playbook and that doesn't work.

[hyperv6]

I want to see what Cadillac can do with a Delta II interior. The Buick is already rather nice.

Cimarron???

Cadillac needs to go up, not down to anything related to Delta II.

Again you really need to see what they do before you prejudge. In time if things don't change many of Cadillacs cars will come closer in size to the Delta II. All luxury MFGs are looking for ways to present small cars that they will be able to sell, have little choice. This is not the last small Cadillac you will see as well as more small Benz, BMW or Audi.

[Drew Dowdell]

it is overcome by max torque at zero RPM

Which is what, like 180 lb-ft? On a car heavier than a CTS. The only way for the ELR to work is to vastly increase the power over the Volt. It has to be faster than a Chevy, handle and ride better than a Chevy, otherwise why pay for it. Cadillac selling a Volt with an interior upgrade is a page from the Lincoln playbook and that doesn't work.

Try 273 ft-lb. Which means that the Volt has same torque at zero that the Cadillac CTS 3.6 has at 4,600 rpm.

[Robert Hall]

This is sort of Cadillac's HS equivalent..it's to the Volt what the HS was to the Prius....hopefully it will fare better than the HS did at Lexus.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

I am fine with small, I've been saying they need a smaller car for years. What I am not fine with is a Cadillac Cruze.

[Robert Hall]

I am fine with small, I've been saying they need a smaller car for years. What I am not fine with is a Cadillac Cruze.

It's more of a Cadillac Volt. The ATS would be the Cadillac Cruze if they cancel Alpha and move the ATS to Delta II.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

it is overcome by max torque at zero RPM

Which is what, like 180 lb-ft? On a car heavier than a CTS. The only way for the ELR to work is to vastly increase the power over the Volt. It has to be faster than a Chevy, handle and ride better than a Chevy, otherwise why pay for it. Cadillac selling a Volt with an interior upgrade is a page from the Lincoln playbook and that doesn't work.

Try 273 ft-lb. Which means that the Volt has same torque at zero that the Cadillac CTS 3.6 has at 4,600 rpm.

I didn't realize it had that much, but it is still only 149 hp, and 0-60 in about 9 seconds with a top speed of 101 mph. Not really Cadillac-like performance numbers. If they boost the power up to make it as fast as a CTS, then they are on to something. I'd rather them just electrify an ATS so they are builing and electric version of a Cadillac rather than a Cadillac version of a Chevy electric car.

[Drew Dowdell]

149 hp in Eco mode - 220 hp in Sport mode.

Remember, horsepower is a function of torque over time. The Honda S2000 has 237 HP at 7300 RPM. The Buick Roadmaster has 240 horsepower also, but at roughly half that RPM. Now look at the torque numbers. The Honda has 163 ft-lb at 6,800 RPM, the Buick 330 ft-lb at somewhere in the high 2,000 range. This is a big reason the Roadmaster was able to get to 60 in about 8 seconds with just a 4-speed auto despite weighing so much. Put that S2000 engine in a Roadmaster and you'd fall asleep on the way to 60. Yet they have the same amount of horsepower.

As we move to more turbo charging and electrical assist, the horsepower number will start to become less meaningful while torque @ RPM will take the dominant roll.

[dwightlooi]

I fail to see the point of doing a Volt rehash with a swoopy body and a more luxurious interior. That theme caters to a niche -- a rather small one at that -- which is already being filled by the Volt.

What Cadillac needs, and what GM doesn't have, is a performance hybrid. A car that speaks not just to tree huggers and global warming believers, but also to folks looking for performance with a technological slant first and fuel economy second.

All the drive train pieces are there, although they'll need to be configured differently...

I envision a 3000 lbs car built on the Alpha platform rather than the Delta II. Unlike the ATS, this will feature as extensive a level of light weight materials use as the platform allows. This means that the hood, trunk, fenders and greenhouse superstructure will all be aluminum or molded CFRP.

The power train is simple and built using off-the shelf components.

• 1.4T Family 0 4-cylinder w/ direct injection (170 hp @ 5200 rpm / 175 lb-ft @ 2000~5000 rpm)
  
• 2 x Chevy Volt Generator Motors (2 x 74 hp)
  
• 4 kWh Li-Ion Battery
  

The idea is to use the electric propulsion motors as an uber active differential in addition to being an assist device. The car has a simple open differential, which one 74 hp motor straddling the half-shafts of each rear wheel. What this means is that the entire setup can direct up to 318hp forward, but also selectively apply each of the 74 hp motors to each wheel or sway their combined torque to the opposite wheel by applying power in opposite directions to improve handling. This is a huge leap forward from today's "active" differentials which are biasing devices, but which have no capability to add torque.

As a bonus, there can even be a "Superdexterous Parking Mode" which is activated only when the car is stationary, in neutral and the steering wheel is being turned all the way against either lock. Under such a circumstance, the rear tires can be made to turn in opposite directions using the electric motors, thereby allowing the car to essentially turn on a dim without any net forward or rear movement. The rate rotation being proportional to the pressure asserted against the power steering sensors at lock. This is sort of how you'll turn a tank, except the rotational axis is biased towards the rear axle given that the front wheels are skewed and free turning.

The battery is parred down to a quarter the Volt's capacity save weight, which in turns improve handling and fuel economy when not running on pure electric power since this car is not intended primarily as an electric vehicle.

Edited December 1, 2011 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

I like that idea too Dwight, but I see room for both in Cadillac's lineup.

[smk4565]

The Volt is a slow seller, I can only imagine a Cadillac Volt really being a sales dog.

Cadillac does need hybrids though (and/or diesel), BMW will have hybrid 3, 5, and 7 series in 2012. And of course Lexus is hybrid heavy and Mercedes and Audi are pushing diesels. Seems like it would be cheaper, and more appealing to customers to hybridize an existing car, rather than a dedicated hybrid like the HS250h failure.

[Drew Dowdell]

The HS failure had less to do with its power train and much much more to do with the fact that it looks, feels, and handles like a Corolla re-badge even though it isn't. They could have put a conventional power train in there and it still would have failed.

[Justin Bimmer]

I think people would be more willing to pay $50,000 for an ELR than $40,000 for a Volt.

[hyperv6]

It would be foolish not sell another car based on this driveline. With the needed investment along with the investment already made they need to continue to improve and refine this system. Spreading the cost will only help. This car is not expected to make a profit for a while but at some point it will need to pay off. Cheaper parts and performace will be what help pay this off and only more development will get GM there. As for the Diesel and Hybrids they are coming anyways. It is going to take all of these to keep Luxury cars alive in the future.

Selling the Electric Cadillac now will seed a segment that will be needed in the future. If you don't build up the segment the cars will never get the development and funding needed to improve them.

There is no silver bullet here to solve the issues facing future regulations. GM will have to work all options to meet the regs and still sell cars people can live with. If you note the one goal of the Volt is to act and feel like a normal car. This is what they want to do with all types of new drivetrain technology and we will see them make attempts to meet this goal with all models.

[Camino LS6]

It would be foolish not sell another car based on this driveline. With the needed investment along with the investment already made they need to continue to improve and refine this system. Spreading the cost will only help. This car is not expected to make a profit for a while but at some point it will need to pay off. Cheaper parts and performace will be what help pay this off and only more development will get GM there. As for the Diesel and Hybrids they are coming anyways. It is going to take all of these to keep Luxury cars alive in the future.

Selling the Electric Cadillac now will seed a segment that will be needed in the future. If you don't build up the segment the cars will never get the development and funding needed to improve them.

There is no silver bullet here to solve the issues facing future regulations. GM will have to work all options to meet the regs and still sell cars people can live with. If you note the one goal of the Volt is to act and feel like a normal car. This is what they want to do with all types of new drivetrain technology and we will see them make attempts to meet this goal with all models.

I actually agree with this.

Might not be a bad idea to offer a conventional version of the Converj to spread the costs even farther. The bodywork is dead-sexy, so why not?

[hyperv6]

It would be foolish not sell another car based on this driveline. With the needed investment along with the investment already made they need to continue to improve and refine this system. Spreading the cost will only help. This car is not expected to make a profit for a while but at some point it will need to pay off. Cheaper parts and performace will be what help pay this off and only more development will get GM there. As for the Diesel and Hybrids they are coming anyways. It is going to take all of these to keep Luxury cars alive in the future.

Selling the Electric Cadillac now will seed a segment that will be needed in the future. If you don't build up the segment the cars will never get the development and funding needed to improve them.

There is no silver bullet here to solve the issues facing future regulations. GM will have to work all options to meet the regs and still sell cars people can live with. If you note the one goal of the Volt is to act and feel like a normal car. This is what they want to do with all types of new drivetrain technology and we will see them make attempts to meet this goal with all models.

I actually agree with this.

Might not be a bad idea to offer a conventional version of the Converj to spread the costs even farther. The bodywork is dead-sexy, so why not?

The Styling alone will sell cars and if you can pop un a high MPG Turbo 4 it will appeal to many. The idea and concept of a small Cadillac is not the problem. The issue in the past they just did not do the right car. I think the Cadillac of today could do it right this time. GM of late has proven to be giving people what they want in styling and MPG they only need to earn their trust now with with quality as they keep improving the lines.

God know this is better looking than a Aston IQ Martin. If they can sell the ugly little leather interior box GM could move these. Besides more of these they sell the easier it will be to add more power to a flag ship on the other end.

[SAmadei]

I agree that GM needs to take the Volt platform and spread it to other cars, but I really wish GM would put the power to the rear wheels. IMHO, Tesla and Fisker have the right idea, and Cadillac should be shooting for this, not the Prius/Leaf/Volt.

Obviously, it would take some rejiggering of things to get the right weight balance, but IIUC, the Volt has empty space between the rear wheels, where the electric motor and transaxle could be fitted.

Is it a lot of engineering? Yes, but its work that can be applied to future enthusiast vehicles. 'Volt'-based Alpha Camaro, anyone?

[ocnblu]

Don't you dare ever mention the grave possibility of "electric" and "Camaro" in the same sentence!