Cadillac's Converj Becomes The ELR

[SAmadei]

Don't you dare ever mention the grave possibility of "electric" and "Camaro" in the same sentence!

Why? It can still have a V8 as the charging engine.

[hyperv6]

Don't you dare ever mention the grave possibility of "electric" and "Camaro" in the same sentence!

We already have had Electric With Ferrari and Prosche. I would not be concerned with it yet but at some point I see this technology touching most models in some way. THere is still alot of work to do before that. It would be a 7th gen or later before you need to worry. It all comes down to how they build and use the system. If it was a Volt like system no V8 but if they do something new where the electric is more of a hybrid yes you might see a small V8. But you will not see a car like this any time soon.

As for RWD on an Electic based Cadillac. I am not sure how easy that would be. I know you can move everything to the back but there would still be a need for a lor of things to be changed. The greatest challange would be a change in the cooling system for the car. Not only the engine would need a Fiero like cooling system but the batteries as well. I am sure the battery would also have to be moved too as the engine would be in front of the rear axle. Then where would you put the gas tank? The Fiero had it in the center of the car where the battery is in the Volt. It would be difficult to put up in the nose. Note the Fiero only has a 10 gallon tank and it was nearly as long as the wheel base.

While it would not be impossible it is a lot more difficult to move this powertrain to the rear than just moving the engine and motors. Now with a full electric it could be done much easier but GM is not ready for that yet in anything but a more basic car. Once they have better batteries it could be a much easier deal.

Edited December 2, 2011 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

No need to move the engine, Hyper.

Just the drive motors.

[Robert Hall]

I agree that GM needs to take the Volt platform and spread it to other cars, but I really wish GM would put the power to the rear wheels. IMHO, Tesla and Fisker have the right idea, and Cadillac should be shooting for this, not the Prius/Leaf/Volt.

Would be nice, but Cadillac is limited to what GM has available..i.e. the FWD Volt platform and drivetrain. And the reality is FWD appliances like the Prius/Leaf/Volt is where the market is (i.e. non car enthusiast consumers who want something green and high tech but don't care about the 'car' aspects such as driving experience) ...

Edited December 2, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

No need to move the engine, Hyper.

Just the drive motors.

The drive motors are also the generators - they have to be directly connected to the engine.

[Camino LS6]

That can be remedied.

[hyperv6]

That can be remedied.

But at what cost?

I don't think they have a cheap easy way to seperate the engine drive system yet. If they did we would already have it. I think if they are to invest in this car they should take the money and make sure the rest of the car is pure Cadillac. Once you get the car right the rest of the driveline may have advance to where they can move things.

Besides the people buying this kind of car are not too worried if it is RWD or not.

[Camino LS6]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that GM should just scrap their plans to use the Volt drivetrain for the ELR. That just wouldn't make sense.

However, A RWD electric Caddy also makes sense.

If they aren't working on it, they should be (Fisker,Tesla).

[smk4565]

Would be nice, but Cadillac is limited to what GM has available..i.e. the FWD Volt platform and drivetrain.

So Cadillac is supposed to take on Mercedes and BMW with what is in the Chevy parts bin? That ain't going to work. This is part of Cadillac's problem, they are so tied to the rest of GM and have that mentality that the GM parts bin is satisfactory. The dead weight brands are gone, GM should be able to allocate proper resources to Cadillac to make an electric RWD car.

[SAmadei]

If it was a Volt like system no V8 but if they do something new where the electric is more of a hybrid yes you might see a small V8. But you will not see a car like this any time soon.

If the Volt was hopped up with more powerful electric motor/generator for racing duty, as a Camaro might need, you may very well need the V8 to keep a charge in the system while racing.

As for RWD on an Electic based Cadillac. I am not sure how easy that would be. I know you can move everything to the back but there would still be a need for a lor of things to be changed. The greatest challange would be a change in the cooling system for the car. Not only the engine would need a Fiero like cooling system but the batteries as well. I am sure the battery would also have to be moved too as the engine would be in front of the rear axle. Then where would you put the gas tank? The Fiero had it in the center of the car where the battery is in the Volt. It would be difficult to put up in the nose. Note the Fiero only has a 10 gallon tank and it was nearly as long as the wheel base.

Engine stays where it is... transverse and all. Instead of a generator/motor, you use a specialized generator between the engine and battery and specialized motor/transaxle at the rear. I'm sure that a gen/motor is not able to do both as well as separate generators and motors can.

Heres the Volt top-down layout...

Now put a electric motor and transaxle in the space between the rear tires. I could likely do it in my garage.

_OR_ use two 160bhp electric-motor-in-a-wheel units that the Mini QED used back in 2006. The Mini QED was 640 bhp total, as it was AWD... I would be happy with 320 RWD HP.

[hyperv6]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that GM should just scrap their plans to use the Volt drivetrain for the ELR. That just wouldn't make sense.

However, A RWD electric Caddy also makes sense.

If they aren't working on it, they should be (Fisker,Tesla).

I am all for a RWD Electric at some point but at this point the Volt set up is not an easy or cheap fix. Remember the direct connection to the driveline is still there. The one some tired to make a big deal about.

I think as they go they can do this and do it right but just not with what they have to work with right now. Development cost are high enough and there are issues still to be improved. Perfect the system and then modify it later.

Keep in mind this car is not going to be Tesla or FIsker priced. A later model more then likely will be and then it will require a similar driveline. That is if Fisker and Tesla are still around.

[Camino LS6]

I think I'm with Samadei - the engineering looks simple enough.

[balthazar]

Unfortunately, it is the inherent inflexibility of the 'platform' architecture that makes what was & should be a relatively inexpensive engineering project a complete 're-do' and MUCH more expensive. That said, it's worth pursuing.

[hyperv6]

Knowing the Fiero program from the inside well it is neither as cheap or easy to do this right with a gas engine let alone with a electric set up on a car never intended for RWD. There were so many things wrong with the Fiero and moving the A body driveline to the back.

I would love to see a RWD Caddy but I feel it would be better if they wait and do this right with a car designed to do this. I mean how many of these cars are you going to sell in the first place and the cost to make it RWD is much greater than you think. Just the amount of money to redesign the rear suspension on the 88 Fiero was in the millions and they did not even have to move the engine again. That was in 1985-86 money and today it would be greater.

I think they should work more on the Volt MPV. It I think would sell much better than even the sedan. Also before thew Cadillac comes out add more range and power. Lets face it to make this car a Cadillac it will add on the pounds even with the FWD system let alone doing some RWD system.

RWD is the right Idea but I think it is the wrong time and platform to do it. Base it on the Alpha coupe and do it right.

Edited December 3, 2011 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Seems to me that it would be easier, simpler, and less-expensive to make this sort of change with electric than it would to convert a gas powered car from FWD to RWD.

No physical connection from the engine to the wheels opens up more options.

Still, as I said before, I don't advocate scrapping the current plan to get there.

It would simply take too long, and delay a great-looking car from production.

[hyperv6]

Seems to me that it would be easier, simpler, and less-expensive to make this sort of change with electric than it would to convert a gas powered car from FWD to RWD.

No physical connection from the engine to the wheels opens up more options.

Still, as I said before, I don't advocate scrapping the current plan to get there.

It would simply take too long, and delay a great-looking car from production.

That is just it there is one connection in this system, The ICE is connected to a ring gear that kicks in when the electric engines don't have power. They work with each other,

Here is how it is explained

.Andrew Farah, the Volt's Chief Engineer explaining the whole process. Put simply, there is a mechanical connection between the ICE and the drivetrain, but it is not being called a "direct" mechanical connection as it only works in concert with torque from the electric motors. There are "situations where we will take mechanical torque from the engine," according to Farah, but there is no arbitrary speed restriction. It's "based on the efficiency map" and is related not to speed, but overall torque in the system.

The ring gear will turn the ring gear that the electric motors turns once they get weak. So while it is not direct it still has a physical connection at this point with the way the system is linked. It is kind of like coinjoined twins. It is two different systems but there is still alink. You can not just put the electric motors in the back and not keep the link. At some point they may be able to do this but as the system stands now. This was what the argument was about last spring. GM said it has a link but it is not direct but it is still linked. This is where some of the anti GM people wanted to say it really was not a full electric car. GM likes to seee it as two full idependent systems but with two links that come in contact with each other.

In other words the transaxle, electic motors and ICE all have to remain in a package as it is in the Volt at this point in development. They are cojoined but work independently.

But I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, I agree with you. Just the system is today and what I understand from what GM has explained it is not as easy as just moving the electric motors to the rear hubs yet. The next system upgrade to this may make it that easy then.

[Camino LS6]

All of that aside, the parts are quite simple and easily re-arranged. I'm not hung up on this system as a restriction, GM's own concept of the "skateboard" shows the way.

Remember that?

[pow]

I can imagine an AWD version by adding an electric motor for the rear wheels, like on the RX450h and DS5 Hybrid4. Converting it to RWD would probably require substantial re-engineering of the chassis, which wasn't designed to handle those sorts of drivetrain loads. Even if it were AWD, they'd want to replace the rear twist-beam with IRS, also costly to engineer.

[hyperv6]

All of that aside, the parts are quite simple and easily re-arranged. I'm not hung up on this system as a restriction, GM's own concept of the "skateboard" shows the way.

Remember that?

That is just it I don't think this system is to the point they can just move it how ever they want. In time they will be able too with better motors and more autonomy of the motors. The skateboard is what I think they would like to work up to in the future but the technology is just not here yet. If it was they would already be doing it.

As for the AWD I would think this will come with better batteries. It would be a natural. Just if they did it now it would add weight and cut the range more than in half.

Once they crack the Battery issue to where it is longer lasting and faster charging things will have limits and ICE to help. Too bad the space program is not in full gear as this would help in development. Here at the NASA Glen Center they have done a lot of power systems for the space programs but they are really cut back right now.

[Robert Hall]

The Volt platform could be used to develop a new small FWD pickup for Chevy, an El Voltamino!

[SAmadei]

Even if it were AWD, they'd want to replace the rear twist-beam with IRS, also costly to engineer.

Costly to engineer? Like how Kugel Komponents made a bolt-in RWD, V8 Focus? Honestly, I think doing a IRS rear is easier than a straight, considering that the IRS rear is already set up. Recast new knuckles, relocate the springs (if needed) and make a mount for the transaxle. Add CV joints.

That is just it I don't think this system is to the point they can just move it how ever they want. In time they will be able too with better motors and more autonomy of the motors. The skateboard is what I think they would like to work up to in the future but the technology is just not here yet. If it was they would already be doing it.

You're right. GM can't engineer themselves out of a wet paper bag. I don't know what we were thinking, expecting too much from the company that made the GTO, the GNX, the Corvette... then made the Solstice mostly out of the spare parts bin.

As for the AWD I would think this will come with better batteries. It would be a natural. Just if they did it now it would add weight and cut the range more than in half.

A small battery bump would be nice, but many AWD vehicles don't get bigger engines. The same power is being used, its just being sent to the wheel that is currently getting traction. I only think a small battery bump would be nice to negate the increased weight.

[smk4565]

I think a Cadillac Volt won't sell, the Volt has sluggish sales, a more expensive, less practical version could be a real sales dog. I would rather see them make a hybrid ATS and/or CTS. To put a hybrid drivetrain in an existing car would cost less, and probably sell better. And diesel will be nice too.

[Robert Hall]

I think a Cadillac Volt won't sell, the Volt has sluggish sales, a more expensive, less practical version could be a real sales dog. I would rather see them make a hybrid ATS and/or CTS. To put a hybrid drivetrain in an existing car would cost less, and probably sell better. And diesel will be nice too.

I think it's more that GM needs to spread the investment in the Volt hardware across multiple models...

[smk4565]

I think a Cadillac Volt won't sell, the Volt has sluggish sales, a more expensive, less practical version could be a real sales dog. I would rather see them make a hybrid ATS and/or CTS. To put a hybrid drivetrain in an existing car would cost less, and probably sell better. And diesel will be nice too.

I think it's more that GM needs to spread the investment in the Volt hardware across multiple models...

Spending more money to make a car that will sell maybe 500 cars a month and possibly steals sales from the Volt is going to be more profitable? Maybe it will be, but I have doubts. At one time they tried to spread costs of the W-body across 5 brands, or the GMT360 across 5 brands, 4 minivans, etc. All those badge jobs just led to lost money, and I realize this isn't a straight badge job. But still, hybrid luxury cars aren't selling the sales charts on fire, Cadillac should have one, but perhaps a CTS hybrid would be the cheapest and easiest to make, and sell the most.

Look at current luxury cars sales, Mercedes is dominating right now, and fuel efficiency isn't their strength. So while I think a "green" car is important I wouldn't make it a priority; performance, technology and engineering seem to matter more to luxury buyers. If Cadillac can do all the other stuff well, then throw on fuel economy as a bonus that is great. But for fuel economy to be the #1 attribute isn't the way to go.

[hyperv6]

Even if it were AWD, they'd want to replace the rear twist-beam with IRS, also costly to engineer.

Costly to engineer? Like how Kugel Komponents made a bolt-in RWD, V8 Focus? Honestly, I think doing a IRS rear is easier than a straight, considering that the IRS rear is already set up. Recast new knuckles, relocate the springs (if needed) and make a mount for the transaxle. Add CV joints.

That is just it I don't think this system is to the point they can just move it how ever they want. In time they will be able too with better motors and more autonomy of the motors. The skateboard is what I think they would like to work up to in the future but the technology is just not here yet. If it was they would already be doing it.

You're right. GM can't engineer themselves out of a wet paper bag. I don't know what we were thinking, expecting too much from the company that made the GTO, the GNX, the Corvette... then made the Solstice mostly out of the spare parts bin.

As for the AWD I would think this will come with better batteries. It would be a natural. Just if they did it now it would add weight and cut the range more than in half.

A small battery bump would be nice, but many AWD vehicles don't get bigger engines. The same power is being used, its just being sent to the wheel that is currently getting traction. I only think a small battery bump would be nice to negate the increased weight.

It is not that GM can't engineer this. The question is how many Cadlillac EVs are you going to sell and how much will it cost to make this happen? Second is RWD EV goin to increase sales that much with this kind of buyer?

[SAmadei]

Tesla and Fisker seem to believe this is the way forward for premium electrics. Most people here will agree that RWD has premium driving dynamics that FWD can't deliver.

I can't predict how many would sell... but I have a pretty good idea of cost.

Drop a Volt off at my house and a check for about $40K for R&D and I'll convert it to RWD. I am confidant subsequent examples will cost about $3K to build, to cover the price of the second gen/motor unit, various custom mounts, new rear knuckles CNC'd. What parts I can't source from the Volt would come from the G8/Caprice PPV.

Worst case scenario I would use Protean Drive PD-18 in-wheel motors, but the price for those will not be announced until next year. However, these are being targeted to fleets which would retrofit older non-electric vehicles, so they are most likely going to be quite affordable. I'd guess worst case being $1000-$1500 per wheel.

GM has better engineers than me and better buying power, so should be able to outdo a guy working in a garage by at least a factor of 2... but GM has to provide a warranty... so that will likely bring GM's cost back to my cost.

To slightly paraphrase what Camino posted elsewhere, 'GM, I'm tired of seeing where you think the market is, why don't you show me where you want to take it?'

[Robert Hall]

I think a Cadillac Volt won't sell, the Volt has sluggish sales, a more expensive, less practical version could be a real sales dog. I would rather see them make a hybrid ATS and/or CTS. To put a hybrid drivetrain in an existing car would cost less, and probably sell better. And diesel will be nice too.

I think it's more that GM needs to spread the investment in the Volt hardware across multiple models...

Spending more money to make a car that will sell maybe 500 cars a month and possibly steals sales from the Volt is going to be more profitable? Maybe it will be, but I have doubts.

Yes, but reusing the existing Volt hardware is the cheapest approach and the least risk..not the best solution, but the pragmatic one considering it's GM and the current economic climate..

Edited December 4, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

I think a Cadillac Volt won't sell, the Volt has sluggish sales, a more expensive, less practical version could be a real sales dog. I would rather see them make a hybrid ATS and/or CTS. To put a hybrid drivetrain in an existing car would cost less, and probably sell better. And diesel will be nice too.

I think it's more that GM needs to spread the investment in the Volt hardware across multiple models...

Spending more money to make a car that will sell maybe 500 cars a month and possibly steals sales from the Volt is going to be more profitable? Maybe it will be, but I have doubts. At one time they tried to spread costs of the W-body across 5 brands, or the GMT360 across 5 brands, 4 minivans, etc. All those badge jobs just led to lost money, and I realize this isn't a straight badge job. But still, hybrid luxury cars aren't selling the sales charts on fire, Cadillac should have one, but perhaps a CTS hybrid would be the cheapest and easiest to make, and sell the most.

Look at current luxury cars sales, Mercedes is dominating right now, and fuel efficiency isn't their strength. So while I think a "green" car is important I wouldn't make it a priority; performance, technology and engineering seem to matter more to luxury buyers. If Cadillac can do all the other stuff well, then throw on fuel economy as a bonus that is great. But for fuel economy to be the #1 attribute isn't the way to go.

The difference here is that the ELR (if it stays true to concept), will be the only EV not priced like a house that looks great.

That alone will sell this car.

The other choices are appliances or exotics, so the ELR will stand alone in that sense.

[smk4565]

The difference here is that the ELR (if it stays true to concept), will be the only EV not priced like a house that looks great.

That alone will sell this car.

The other choices are appliances or exotics, so the ELR will stand alone in that sense.

I don't think fuel economy or being able to drive 30 miles on electricity is enough to sell a car costing maybe $60,000. People spending that much money on a car aren't looking to save $2,000 a year in fuel costs. At that price point, Cadillac is going to have to offer a lot more. A Volt with a nicer interior sounds to me like Lincoln thinking, and we all know that doesn't work.

[balthazar]

It's not a "Volt with a nicer interior"; it's nothing like toyota's experiment at lexus with the bloated, uber-cheap CT200h - it's a dynamic design that would appeal to those who appreciate such. MPG is a footnote here in what is an emotional attraction. There's much more potential here than cold, factual come-ons.

BTW; BMW felt there was a business case to build unique cars in the z4 and 6-series that sell far less than 500 units/mnth (6-series sales in Dec '10 : 70 units)

[smk4565]

Great design couldn't save the XLR. I think the XLR is the best looking Cadillac ever made, but it didn't have the build quality, performance, interior, etc to justify the price.

The BMW 6-series had 550 units last month in the USA, but they sell over 1,000 a month globally. Which is low volume, but it is basically a 5-series coupe, it isn't different model. The Z4 has pretty low sales, only 3,200 this year in the USA.

If they built a plug-in CTS that sold 400 units a month I'd see that as a better investment than an ELR that sells 500 units a month.

[Drew Dowdell]

A 6-series is a 7-series coupe, not a 5-series coupe.

Why can't people who want luxury also want to save gasoline? There are LOTS of wealthy people out there who are also environmentalists. Whether or not you agree with the environmentalism, Cadillac should offer a vehicle to people who do think in such terms. Cadillac knows they aren't going to sell a bunch of these each month. That isn't the point. This is a halo car for Cadillac in the same way the Volt is a halo car for Chevy. Halo cars don't always have to be the fastest things out there to be halo cars.

Toyota is still alive today because of the halo they've crafted around the Pruis.

Could Cadillac make a RWD Voltec ATS? Most likely. Could they get it out next year? Unlikely.

Just like with the XTS thread, people keep forgetting that Cadillac needs models now not 4 years from now. Just because the models they are presenting now aren't your personal ideal doesn't mean they won't sell. One just needs to look at the SRX for proof of that.

It is almost exactly 1 month till the ATS reveal and 6 months till production launch. People who don't like the ELR or XTS can get their jollies then.

[smk4565]

I am all for saving gas and think Cadillac needs hybrids and diesels. But I would rather see a hybrid CTS or plug-in CTS than another car built of a Chevy platform. It seems that GM's plan is to have every Cadillac platform share with a Chevy, that is a dangerous path to go down.

Plus, Cadillac keeps stating they are a performance luxury brand but slow FWD cars isn't performance. If the ELR does 0-60 in 6 seconds flat then great, but if it is just slow like the Volt then it doesn't belong in Cadillac's line up.

[balthazar]

Great design couldn't save the XLR. I think the XLR is the best looking Cadillac ever made, but it didn't have the build quality, performance, interior, etc to justify the price.

Well, that's all your opinion, and you're in a strict minority there, so what's this statement worth in the Grand Scheme?

The BMW 6-series had 550 units last month in the USA... Which is low volume, but it is basically a 5-series coupe, it isn't different model. The Z4 has pretty low sales, only 3,200 this year in the USA

6-series is a unique body shell/interior, is it not? I have no idea if it's a shared platform (tho likely it is knowing BMW). Point is, it's a perpetual crappy seller on the average month (Oct '10 : 48 units. Oct '11 : 414). Your metric was 'it isn't worth it if they can't sell over 500 units/month', here's the same metric applied to a company you'd drink the chrome shop sludge residue from, straight. Where is your rant against terrible sales & wastes of corporate funding @ BMW? Their entry-level car sold an embarrassing 679 units in Oct '11 - that's pathetic. How is BMW going to get new customers into the 3-series when the 1 is an utter failure? :wacko:

[Justin Bimmer]

In 39 months the Cadilac ELR will be a serious contender for me to replace the Buick Regal. I'm the market the ELR appeals to. Early 30s, professional, and environmentally conscious.

[ocnblu]

The ELR, a "halo car"? What are you smoking? Please pass it.

[hyperv6]

The ELR, a "halo car"? What are you smoking? Please pass it.

He is just pointing out it is a car to attract people to Cadillac and highlight that they are not just about gas guzzlers. I know many people who own and drive Prius that can afford a much more expensive car but there are few options for the tree hugger. Just look at all the Hollywood people who own them. Every time you turn around they appear on Top Gear and tell Jeremy they own a Prius to go with their AMG Black edition.

Cars like this they are not going to save the planet but to the owner and the seller the image you are trying is everything. The green movment may not be large in this country but it is growning. Each generation is becoming more and more involved. In Europe it is a major movment to the point companies like Porsche and others are looking into doing eviro super cars.

This car is more about expanding the image of Cadillac for the future and to help spread the investment cost of the Volt out over more products.

I think he is telling you this is more about an investment for th future and building an multi demensional image for Cadillac. The market Cadillac is in is no longer one demension.

Power, technology, luxury and eviromental are the key areas for most luxury marks anymore. They all need to offer something in a combination of these areas. In the past power, luxury and big alone would get you buy but no longer.

[Camino LS6]

I don't think that the ELR (unlike the XTS), needs any excuses made for it.

I looks great, and it is technologically advanced - isn't that what Cadillacs are supposed to be?

[smk4565]

The argument of "they need this car to spread out the development cost of the Volt" I think is a bad one. The Volt should be able to support its own development cost, and even if it couldn't spread it onto another Chevy. It shouldn't be Cadillac's role to spread development costs of a slow selling Chevy.

Cadillac should be building cars that luxury buyers want, and cars that will improve their brand image. By saying we need the ELR to help cover Volt costs smells of "old GM" thinking and supporting legacy costs and sunk costs should not be the goal. The goal is to build profitable vehicles that people want.

[Drew Dowdell]

The ELR, a "halo car"? What are you smoking? Please pass it.

Is the Pruis not a "halo car" to a certain type of person? It's not a halo car to you or I, but to a greenie-wannabie-mom trying to make the world a better place for her kids, it is far more halo than a Corvette ever could dream of being.

[Drew Dowdell]

The argument of "they need this car to spread out the development cost of the Volt" I think is a bad one. The Volt should be able to support its own development cost, and even if it couldn't spread it onto another Chevy. It shouldn't be Cadillac's role to spread development costs of a slow selling Chevy.

Cadillac should be building cars that luxury buyers want, and cars that will improve their brand image. By saying we need the ELR to help cover Volt costs smells of "old GM" thinking and supporting legacy costs and sunk costs should not be the goal. The goal is to build profitable vehicles that people want.

Spreading the costs around are what the Volt MPV and the Ampera are for. The ELR is a way to give Cadillac the most advanced propulsion system in the world at the moment while wrapping it up in a very attractive, and very Cadillac shell.

[hyperv6]

The argument of "they need this car to spread out the development cost of the Volt" I think is a bad one. The Volt should be able to support its own development cost, and even if it couldn't spread it onto another Chevy. It shouldn't be Cadillac's role to spread development costs of a slow selling Chevy.

Cadillac should be building cars that luxury buyers want, and cars that will improve their brand image. By saying we need the ELR to help cover Volt costs smells of "old GM" thinking and supporting legacy costs and sunk costs should not be the goal. The goal is to build profitable vehicles that people want.

Using the Volt like [note not the same tune] driveline is no different than using an LS engine in the CTS. You can explain it any way you like but they are saving money by using a GM corp engine vs making a Cadillac specific engine.

Even companies as large as GM have to share cost on expensive development work. This is one thing that will remain a part of Cadillac into the future. Now that is not to say the division can do a good job taking the basic parts and making it their own just as they did with the CTSV.

While it may start with the basic parts of the Volt the Cadillac will be by the time we see it a very different car. I expect it will be as close to the Volt as the ATS will be to the 6th gen Camaro.

GM has and will continue to share drivelines engine and transmissions. Hell they even share some of these Transmissions designs wth BMW and indirectly with Ford. So as long as GM shared basic engines there is no reason to not expect them to share this new technology in various forms with other divisions.

Wait till this car is out and you will see what they have done. This will not be a Cadillac Volt. This car will see things a Volt will never see in production till later or if at all. I would not term this a halo car but I would term it a technology show case car. It is kind of like the car of tomarrow that you can own today.

The styling is only the frosting here. With the higher price they will charge they can afford to put things into this car they could not with the Volt. Because the Volt was a Chevy there was really a major effort to retain the cost all they could.

GM has not screwed up on many of the new cars they have brought out. Most are selling and have been accpeted well. These are not even the new products started after the Chapter 11. Things are good now and I expect will only get better starting with the ATS and later products.

Edited December 6, 2011 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

Using the Volt like [note not the same tune] driveline is no different than using an LS engine in the CTS. You can explain it any way you like but they are saving money by using a GM corp engine vs making a Cadillac specific engine.

Even companies as large as GM have to share cost on expensive development work. This is one thing that will remain a part of Cadillac into the future. Now that is not to say the division can do a good job taking the basic parts and making it their own just as they did with the CTSV.

But the CTS-V isn't built on the same platform, suspension, transmission and engine as a Malibu or Cruze. And actually, I'd prefer Cadillac make their own engine that is not used in Corvette for their V-series cars. But that is another topic altogether. I am not convinced the ELR won't just be a Cadillac Volt with a different body, maybe with a battery upgrade.

[hyperv6]

Using the Volt like [note not the same tune] driveline is no different than using an LS engine in the CTS. You can explain it any way you like but they are saving money by using a GM corp engine vs making a Cadillac specific engine.

Even companies as large as GM have to share cost on expensive development work. This is one thing that will remain a part of Cadillac into the future. Now that is not to say the division can do a good job taking the basic parts and making it their own just as they did with the CTSV.

But the CTS-V isn't built on the same platform, suspension, transmission and engine as a Malibu or Cruze. And actually, I'd prefer Cadillac make their own engine that is not used in Corvette for their V-series cars. But that is another topic altogether. I am not convinced the ELR won't just be a Cadillac Volt with a different body, maybe with a battery upgrade.

Sorry but the economics of scale do not work they way you want. Don't think GM would love to have a Cadillac engine all their own too. The fact is GM is a family and things must be shared. The fact is the CTS Engine in your eyes may be shared with the Vette but to others it is shared with a pick up truck. Not that that is bad or good it is just the way it is and will be.

I am not suprised you are not convinced as you really have not shown you really have picked up on where GM is and where they are going. Others here see the big picture and the steps in the transformation. Many have seen, been in and driven the cars that we have now and understand what is going on. Right now is just clean up time with the product that was rushed before the Chapter 11. The new Vette, ATS and pckups will show the first post Chapter 11 work and it will be moving GM in greater steps forward.

The fact is the extra money they can charge for this Cadillac will give them the ability to offer what they could not in a Chevy. Also this car will be the best looking EV in the world. To me I like it better than the FIsker and Tesla sedans. It will show the world you don't have to look like a easter egg to be electric.

I would bet by the time this car hist it will show the 2.0 version of the Voltech drive system. Who knows it may even go to the 3.0 since both have been in development for a while now and may be ready to move to production. Work on these advance systems started before the Volt hit the streets and what better way to trickle the technology down than a Cadillac show case in the best looking EV sedan.

[Z-06]

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

[hyperv6]

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

Don't forget the W engines that are shared with VW, Audi. Bugatti, and Bently.

Today a company needs to share with divisions or it will need to share with other companies. BMW has worked with GM and now is talking to Toyota to share cost on new technologies and parts.

Development cost are so high any more the cost need to be spread out as much as they can. This is why even cross town rivals GM and Ford shared funding in the transaxle they co developed.

[Drew Dowdell]

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

Don't forget the W engines that are shared with VW, Audi. Bugatti, and Bently.

Today a company needs to share with divisions or it will need to share with other companies. BMW has worked with GM and now is talking to Toyota to share cost on new technologies and parts.

Development cost are so high any more the cost need to be spread out as much as they can. This is why even cross town rivals GM and Ford shared funding in the transaxle they co developed.

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

you mean like the V6 that the E, C, SLK, R, ML, GLK, and CLS use that comes from the Sprinter?

[Justin Bimmer]

Or how abut the shared engines between Audi and Lamborghini! The cheapening of Lamborghini with a parts bin engine is unconscionable.

[smk4565]

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

Don't forget the W engines that are shared with VW, Audi. Bugatti, and Bently.

Today a company needs to share with divisions or it will need to share with other companies. BMW has worked with GM and now is talking to Toyota to share cost on new technologies and parts.

Development cost are so high any more the cost need to be spread out as much as they can. This is why even cross town rivals GM and Ford shared funding in the transaxle they co developed.

No one complains when VW shares with Seat, Audi and Porsche. Yet for GM it is blasphemy.

you mean like the V6 that the E, C, SLK, R, ML, GLK, and CLS use that comes from the Sprinter?

The Sprinter originally had an inline five cylinder, replaced by the 72 degree V6 that is used in the E-class and S-class (and Jeep for a while). But the engine makes more power in the sedans than it does in a Sprinter. The 3.5 liter gas V6 in all those cars is a 60 degree V.

And I never complained about sharing a V6 with Cadillac and Buick/Chevy, because you can tweak the engine for each car. As they do with a CTS and a Traverse, or as Honda or Nissan do. Although they both have 3.5 and 3.7 liter V6s for some differentiation. My complaint was V-series cars sharing an engine with a Chevy. An AMG engine for example is only in an AMG product.

[smk4565]

Or how abut the shared engines between Audi and Lamborghini! The cheapening of Lamborghini with a parts bin engine is unconscionable.

Both are premium brands though, and they share engines between the R8 and Gallardo.