Cadillac Vehicles & Engine Lineup (Circa 2015)

[smk4565]

I wasn't meaning to say sales volume equals superiority, but to point out the brand image difference. Dwight suggested a 470 hp 25 mpg V8, yet even with 556 hp, more people would take a Mercedes with a 268 hp V6 for the same money. Big engines and 0-60 time aren't enough, Cadillac has an image problem. Any muscle car can crank out horsepower, the image has to be repaired by more complex measures, such as refinement, build quality, and technology.

And Mercedes did sell over 825,000 W126 S-classes, that is pretty big volume for a top end luxury car.

[Lamar]

I wasn't meaning to say sales volume equals superiority, but to point out the brand image difference. Dwight suggested a 470 hp 25 mpg V8, yet even with 556 hp, more people would take a Mercedes with a 268 hp V6 for the same money.

I already explained why. The two cars aren't even comparable because they're aimed at different markets.

Now if someone could prove that the E63 handily outsells the CTS-V, then you make a better point.

[smk4565]

I wasn't meaning to say sales volume equals superiority, but to point out the brand image difference. Dwight suggested a 470 hp 25 mpg V8, yet even with 556 hp, more people would take a Mercedes with a 268 hp V6 for the same money.

I already explained why. The two cars aren't even comparable because they're aimed at different markets.

Now if someone could prove that the E63 handily outsells the CTS-V, then you make a better point.

I don't think either brand breaks down sales by specific model, could be hard to find out. But look at the price gap also, if the CTS-V was $90,000, they would sell like 10 cars a year. Nothing Cadillac makes is directly comparable to Mercedes because they operate in such different price brackets, due to the massive image gap between the two. This is the gap Cadillac has to narrow.

I just priced an E350 with 4matic, Premium package 2 and the driving nannies like Distronic, night vision, blind spot, parking aides, wood/leather steering wheel, rear air bags, message seats, etc. Pretty much everything but dealer accessories, AMG wheels, panoramic sunroof, and rear seat DVD system. Price is $69,905. This is the difference between Cadillac and Mercedes. Cadillac could not price a V6 CTS at $70,000, they would be laughed at.

Perhaps even more scary, is the options list on the S550 can total near $40,000, that's a whole Cadillac just in options, or 3 Fiestas.

Edited July 9, 2011 by smk4565

[balthazar]

^ average s-class incentives is $13,000, that's a whole Fiesta, now that's scary.

[balthazar]

Yes GM though Saturn people wanted non discript with little badging and no grills as they just wanted a good friendly dealer to work with. Not it was not till he got involved that Saturn started to look good.

You mean like this? ... Maybe this: ... Maybe it was this: ... Maybe this? ... or this?

I love it when people pick out a random, singular feature and declare the 'cause of death' all due to that- almost always quite entertaining.

[hyperv6]

Yes GM though Saturn people wanted non discript with little badging and no grills as they just wanted a good friendly dealer to work with. Not it was not till he got involved that Saturn started to look good.

You mean like this? ... Maybe this: ... Maybe it was this: ... Maybe this? ... or this?

I love it when people pick out a random, singular feature and declare the 'cause of death' all due to that- almost always quite entertaining.

I just love it when some deflect when they have a weak argument.

You know as well as the rest of us there are many things involved. The point here was taken from Bob Lutz and his perspective on one of the major issues at Saturn. He was just pointing out how GM did not know their market or customer and tried to force on the public their preceptions of what they thought they felt the needed.

[hyperv6]

As of now Cadillac is not taking Benz on head to head as they just don't have the models now to do it in each class. There is still work to do before they can accomplish this. This will take time and each new model needs to be well excuted. A failure will only add to the time and cost of rebuilding.

Sales numbers = superiority This is not always true in luxury cars. Some have to do this as they can not sell the model at a high enough price to make a large margin. While others can sell at lower volumes at a higher price to make the profit. The key here is to to work to the lower volume and higher profits to enhance your image. Porsche in the 80's tried the high volume route and paid a price in poorer image. Today the price of a 911 is back up there and they sell less but make more money. The age of the 924, 944 and cheaper 911 almost killed Porsches image. They may have sold more cars but they did not make the money.

The ATS will be the volume car as GM needs this yet as they add other models and more expensive models it will take some of the burden off this car. Cadillac will have to transform to where they are going. Where they start is not the final desination. They have to earn the Image and preception and prove they are worthy of consideration. Even then it will still be a difficult job to change minds and how people in this class precieve Cadillac.

Styling: is the most important thing. It is what stimulates a buyer more than anything. When they see the car it is the first sense GM contacts with the buyer. Note this is an area Cadillac can really work. Lets face it the German cars while not bad are not stellar exhibits of styling and design.

Quality: The new product needs to be trouble free and the best on the market. It will still take time but you have to prove you can make a better car. GM is able to do this now, they just need to make few mistakes and if they do have an issue be proactive.

Technology; This can include everything from performance, onboard electronics to safety. You have heavy marketing from Benz flipping cars in crash test to BMW showing how their cars perform. They like to show all the trick features you can't get on a Chevy or VW.

Perception: What people think of your car means a lot here. The buyers in this class read and learn much on these cars as few take lightly on spending large sums with out knowing the product. Benz and BMW market strong on the images they have built. We all know that they are the end all be all car of the world but to most of their buyers they drank the Kool Aid and are believers. GM needs to convert and convince the public they are not the 864 Cadillac of the past. Like DOHC or push button start buttons or not most see these as advancements. These are things that people do not need but want in this class.

Image: This is the tough one as Image can not be bought or sold. Image have to be earned with great product and excellent marketing. It takes time and can not be forced. Cadillac once held the image of the worlds best many years ago. they lost it and now have to re earn it with each and every model.

Ego: Cadillac needs to feed the ego of the buyers. This is where they have to give them the kinds of cars they want not the cars they need. Many in this class are concerned on how the car represents them just as a good suit. A man does not need a Armani Suit as a JC Penny may do the same job just as well. But the image of of power and exclusiveness reflects back on the owner. The same holds true on these cars. Cadillac needs to be a car that everyone wants but not everyone should or can have one.

We can argue all you want that Cadillac can or can't fight BMW or Benz. The fact remains if they are to survive they have to as long as Buick the 800 pound Chinese Gorilla is still in the room. Cadillac has no room to move down and only a path that leads up. While they may not take the lead in this group they can survive if they prove they belong and make consistant market gains.

One main key here is to make sure even if a platform is shared with another GM divivion that it has little to show it does. Even shared engines should be tuned and dressed differently. These cars need to offer what you can't get on a Chevy. I know econoimics are in play and some things have to be shared but every effort needs to done to hide the shared items. LS engine is not a bad thing for Cadillac but it also hurts it's Image wise with many potential buyers too. Not everyone is in love with a Chevy engine. Like it or not it is as much a liability in this class as help.

I really think GM can do this with the right people calling the shots. But I am sorry to say there are still some within GM as lost as some here in really understanding the segment , the buyers and what Cadillac needs to be. If some t GM were in charge they would recreate the Cimarron all over again.

Today is a global market. Cadillac has to sell here and elsewhere like the rest of it's challangers. While it need not make a major impact in Europe it still needs a presents there to be considered legitimate by many buyers. The only luxury car without a world market is Lincoln and they too are struggling with poor image and poor preceptions.

I would like to see Cadillac get the ATS and CTS right. Then move on to a larger RWD sedan. Then once they have gotten these right I would love to see a car in the vein of a Bently Coupe that will offer a show case of luxury and performance. It would be low volume and I would still keep the price near $100,000 When I say Bently I mean a car that has styling and performance that look and runs as well. It can still be a V8 and does not have to over reach. But when I see Bently coupe here just the styling and trim alone make you say wow. I would like that kind of impact. That is what I would like to see in a so called flagship.

Imagine a Sixteen like car as a real functioning coupe. The reason I picked the coupe I see it easier to style and build. It also would bridge a sedan and 2 seat roadster that Cadillac is just not ready for. The styling cues also can be used on the other cars in the line. But the first step is to get the ATS and next CTS the kind of cars people will wait a month or more to get at the dealer because of demand.

Edited July 9, 2011 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

Yes GM though Saturn people wanted non discript with little badging and no grills as they just wanted a good friendly dealer to work with. Not it was not till he got involved that Saturn started to look good.

You mean like this? ... Maybe this: ... Maybe it was this: ... Maybe this? ... or this?

I love it when people pick out a random, singular feature and declare the 'cause of death' all due to that- almost always quite entertaining.

I just love it when some deflect when they have a weak argument.

You know as well as the rest of us there are many things involved. The point here was taken from Bob Lutz and his perspective on one of the major issues at Saturn. He was just pointing out how GM did not know their market or customer and tried to force on the public their preceptions of what they thought they felt the needed.

Except I haven't presented an argument here, nor defended Saturn.

In your earlier post, Olds simply picked your singular Lutz reason -'faceless, bland styling'- and neatly put it into period context, showing that was no reason at all, but a stylistic trend.

The fact is, Saturn sold a million vehicles in less than 5 years, and 2 million in 8- very impressive for a brand new company with zero history.

How has scion done? Wonder what their stylistic mistakes have been and how much toyota did not know about their market ??

Personally; I'm in the camp that firmly believes the Saturn experiment cost the core Divisions greatly, and financially, never should have been green-lighted.

-- -- --

You have to realize that even an insider's viewpoint is not immune from agenda and subjectives, and as such, cannot always be taken at face value. If Lutz had a laundry list of Saturn cause & effect, then it would behoove the discussion to state more than "faceless styling" as the only example.

[dwightlooi]

Honestly, I don't think anyone is going to buy a Cadillac-V or some future flagship because of its Pushrod engine or inspite of it. I don't think the valvetrain configuration is relevant. What is relevant is whether you can deliver the performance, mileage and refinement. In this regard, the Pushrod setup trumps the DOHC setup in performance and mileage. However, it is also inferior in terms of refinement -- not because pushrods make more noise, but because a larger displacement is needed for a given output which leads to higher vibration levels from the reciprocating assembly. This, however, needs to be viewed as being as acceptable or as unacceptable as engines like the Mercedes-AMG M156 6.3 liter V8 which is of a similar displacement.

The argument that putting DOHC heads on an engine will somehow cause customers to flock to Cadillac or not reject it is dubious. The Northstar did not have that effect and the CTS-V hasn't seen people turn away because of the engine's valvetrain design. DOHC is neither unique (a Camry has had it twenty years ago) nor a symbol of technological prowess, in fact most engines these days don't even inscribe DOHC-32v on the dress cover. It's no longer a differentiating factor when 90% of engines are DOHC. Today, they inscribe things like Direct Injection, GDI, DI-VCT, etc.

Edited July 9, 2011 by dwightlooi

[smk4565]

The goal of Cadillac should to have Mercedes' volume, price margins, customer loyalty, reputation, image, etc. The goal is to make the Wreath and Crest carry as much weight as the 3-point star. Everything Cadillac does should be done to put them in a position to be on par with Mercedes, that is why I dislike the SRX, and XTS, those are distractions and quick fixes, they aren't solving the problem.

[Lamar]

The goal of Cadillac should to have Mercedes' volume, price margins, customer loyalty, reputation, image, etc. The goal is to make the Wreath and Crest carry as much weight as the 3-point star. Everything Cadillac does should be done to put them in a position to be on par with Mercedes, that is why I dislike the SRX, and XTS, those are distractions and quick fixes, they aren't solving the problem.

There's no need for Cadillac to have Mercedes' volume since it's impossible for them to have 15 (B, C, E, S, CL, CLS, SL, SLK, SLS, R, ML, G, GL, GLK, Sprinter) models. Nor is there really a need to. Some of Mercedes' models (R, ML, GL, GLK) are me-too offerings anyway. IMO Caddy would do well with ATS (four variants), CTS (three variants), STS (or whatever they call the RWD flagship), Escalade (it still sells), SRX (moved back to Sigma or Alpha), and MAYBE an XLR done right. Caddy doesn't need to be a full-line manufacturer like MB is in Europe.

Now if you're talking worldwide volume, I'm certain that Cadillac won't expand worldwide and then fleet itself out like Mercedes and BMW do.

However, everything else you said in this comment is spot-on.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac is not going to out volume Benz as they have too many different models and makes around the world. Cadillac needs to beat them in image and make a good profit. With GM they can afford to sell Cadillac in smaller volumes at a higher price and make more money on less cars.

Many other makes sell less cars and make enough money to make their brands stand out. This is not a matter of who is number one in sales, it is about being a member of the club and being considered one of the best while making a good profit.

High end luxury and sports cars is not about volume. If anything high volume hurts image. A Cadillac in every trailer park is not a good thing. People in this class want to be special. Buick is there for the common man to buy in larger volumes.

The key is to get Cadillac to the point it has earned this image and status.

[Lamar]

Cadillac is not going to out volume Benz as they have too many different models and makes around the world. Cadillac needs to beat them in image and make a good profit. With GM they can afford to sell Cadillac in smaller volumes at a higher price and make more money on less cars.

Many other makes sell less cars and make enough money to make their brands stand out. This is not a matter of who is number one in sales, it is about being a member of the club and being considered one of the best while making a good profit.

High end luxury and sports cars is not about volume. If anything high volume hurts image. A Cadillac in every trailer park is not a good thing. People in this class want to be special. Buick is there for the common man to buy in larger volumes.

The key is to get Cadillac to the point it has earned this image and status.

:word:

[smk4565]

The goal of Cadillac should to have Mercedes' volume, price margins, customer loyalty, reputation, image, etc. The goal is to make the Wreath and Crest carry as much weight as the 3-point star. Everything Cadillac does should be done to put them in a position to be on par with Mercedes, that is why I dislike the SRX, and XTS, those are distractions and quick fixes, they aren't solving the problem.

Now if you're talking worldwide volume, I'm certain that Cadillac won't expand worldwide and then fleet itself out like Mercedes and BMW do.

However, everything else you said in this comment is spot-on.

I was thinking global volume, and perhaps not the million units a year that Mercedes sells, but maybe 400-500,000 units. The profit margins and image I am more concerned about.

[balthazar]

Two image aspect Cadillac enjoys over mercedees- far higher private ownership here than mercedes can boast in Germany and vice-versa; far lower fleet sales.

Not that anyone in the U.S. cares about the state of affairs for mercedees in other markets.

[smk4565]

Two image aspect Cadillac enjoys over mercedees- far higher private ownership here than mercedes can boast in Germany and vice-versa; far lower fleet sales.

Not that anyone in the U.S. cares about the state of affairs for mercedees in other markets.

Fleet sales do not hurt Mercedes. They almost seem to enhance their reputation as 97% of all governments own an S-class, and over 100 own an armored S-class limo, and many leaders and dignitaries are driven around the fleeted out cars. You may not like how they operate, but they are in 1st place and have been the most successful luxury car brand worldwide over the past 30-40 years.

The question is how does Cadillac (circa 2015) put a vehicle lineup, marketing strategy, etc together to compete with the top tier brands. Cadillac staying status quo and hoping for Mercedes to fall apart is not a good plan.

[balthazar]

Fleet sales don't hurt mercedees HERE, because consumers here, tho open-minded, aren't particularly interested in what goes on over there.

Fleet sales in GERMANY, tho far more closed-minded there, have resulted in an image that does not match the lofty one mercedees enjoys here... because we don't see the stripper taxis and garbage trucks here.

No; those do NOT add to the image of mercedees being a top-shelf luxury make.

Cadillac is certainly not standing still in the meanwhile, hoping mercedees' fails.

[smk4565]

Fleet sales don't hurt mercedees HERE, because consumers here, tho open-minded, aren't particularly interested in what goes on over there.

Fleet sales in GERMANY, tho far more closed-minded there, have resulted in an image that does not match the lofty one mercedees enjoys here... because we don't see the stripper taxis and garbage trucks here.

No; those do NOT add to the image of mercedees being a top-shelf luxury make.

Cadillac is certainly not standing still in the meanwhile, hoping mercedees' fails.

Fleet sales don't hurt Mercedes in Germany or anywhere else in the world either. If fleets sales were hurting them so much in Europe, Lexus or Infiniti or Cadillac would have broken into the market. The German trio dominate China and Europe, and Mercedes and BMW and #1 and #2 in North America now also. Mercedes in 2011 is actually having a record sales year, they are up in England, Sweeden, Germany, China, USA, Japan, and Middle East. Their image seems to be fine, they perform near the top in every market.

Global luxury sales first 6 months of 2011

BMW: 689,861

Audi: 652,950

Mercedes: 610,531

This is largely due to Mercedes being #3 in China, selling 30,000 fewer cars than BMW and 50,000 fewer than Audi there. Audi is the choice of the Chinese government (A6 is the #1 selling luxury car in China), which helps boost sales volume there.

[hyperv6]

I got invited to the opening of a Movie Corbin Bersen produced tonight. It was premieried here in Akron.

As we walked out I saw a black Bentley Continental GT. This is a car that you don't ask if it has push rods or DOHC, You don't ask if it has a V12 or V8, you don't even really care if it is a Bentley or not. The styling on this car and the elegance speaks a powerful language and it is a design that makes you feel it not just see it. The lines of the car and the trim on the interior speak volumes of what Sport Luxury has become.

This is the kind of car that has image and power all over it! When someone drive in with one of these you get noticed and it is not something you see just anywhere. Though around here they are becoming more common. I saw one in the snow last year.

The CTS Coupe is close to this in presents but I would like to see the interior a little more to the Bently style of detail.

Imagine if the could do a ATS coupe with this kind of styling and presents. Add to that a great engine and chassis. This is where Cadillac needs to go on all levels. Park that Bentley GT next to a DTS and you can see what has been wrong. Or if you like to compare sedan to sedan use a Mulsanne.

Here are 4 things pointed out on the Bentley web site and I feel Cadillac needs to apply to all of these.

Engineering Passion

Performance

Technology

Craftsmanship

Styling with Passion or Presents

These are what the Cadillac class should be all about. I added the last one and I feel it is the most important.

I am not saying Cadillac needs to build a $200,000 coupe or sedan. By all means no! But these points can be applied to a car in the range of $40K-90K with no issue. Prove yourself here you can move up later. Cadillac just needs to carve out it's own place and grow the brand back to what it once was. It is not so much out selling Benz or BMW but growing Cadillac to what it can be.

If Cadillac makes a car that looks like $200,000 and sells it for $60,000 they will make gains to a bright future. Styling draws customer like a moth to a flame. Then once you get them to this point the rest of the car can sell itself.

Edited July 10, 2011 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

WRT Bentleys - I see these frequently around here, have driven right by them in the next lane. I know what they are immediately and they are 'Saturn-bland' from the outside. No character, bare minimal detailing, no language, no trim or brightwork, head & tails are simple holes in the sheet metal, with lenses plugged in. Brooklands is FAR worse; an anachronistic portrayal of 'Generic' with a horse face. Interiors is another topic, but there's simply nothing concrete on the exterior to drool over.

Being a rare coupe will catch your eye, sure... but to really judge the styling- take a look at the sedan version: bland, bland, bland, bland, bland. Yeesh.

One thing I'll give VW credit for is that the GTs seem larger than they really are, which I like, but once you get halfway around them, they are smaller than a 5-series.

And for the prices charged- these should be rolling sculptures, cars that radiate exclusivity & leading edge inspirational design, cars that inspire immitation, not ones that confuse the bystanders or render them indifferent. I've pointed these out to a wide cross-section of folk who have yet to have anything beyond a 'meh' reaction. They I tell them the price and they laugh it off. IMO, VERY disappointing for the position & price (interior, too).

VW should strive for a balance of elegance & power with a strong dose of exclusivity. Hopefully the next go-round will offer some of that.

[balthazar]

smk4565 ~ >>"Fleet sales don't hurt Mercedes in Germany or anywhere else in the world either."<<

They why does mercedees have the lowest private ownership rate in Germany?? Why aren't europeans clamoring to own mercedes? Face it- MB relies heavily on fleet sales for volume, because the private market is NOT carrying them there. You cannot claim you are a luxury segment leader when the vast majority of your sales are low-end, fleet jobs- that's the same angle the Impala uses. This is why MB is lumping the Sprinter in with their retail sales- they are in the relentless pursuit of volume. Yep- I know it's volume isn't huge, but it's the #1 sales grower in the portfolio (up 162% vs. June '10).

>>"If fleets sales were hurting them so much in Europe, Lexus or Infiniti or Cadillac would have broken into the market."<<

Like I said: close-minded. Toyoyo/lexus already smashed mercedees & BMWs sales records here in the U.S., but we're far less biased here. Were it not for toyoto's quality implosion over the last decade, lexus would likely still be #1. Thankfully for mercedees, their quality lapse has been far less severe & lengthy than lexus's. They also have 97 models, of different design 'languages', and are in most every segment out there vs. lexus, which has some really rotten fruit on the vine.

Edited July 10, 2011 by balthazar

[hyperv6]

They also have 97 models, of different design 'languages', and are in most every segment out there vs. lexus, which has some really rotten fruit on the vine.

With Benz where they are and Toyota struggling... Boys it's time to go pick that vine clean.

In all truth it is a good time for GM to make some headway here. They are not going to the front in a year or so but they can carve out a place to be and grow. Also a stron buy American setiment is growing in this country. Give em a good car and they will come. I think this has helped the Cruze.

Edited July 10, 2011 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

smk4565 ~ >>"Fleet sales don't hurt Mercedes in Germany or anywhere else in the world either."<<

They why does mercedees have the lowest private ownership rate in Germany?? Why aren't europeans clamoring to own mercedes? Face it- MB relies heavily on fleet sales for volume, because the private market is NOT carrying them there. You cannot claim you are a luxury segment leader when the vast majority of your sales are low-end, fleet jobs- that's the same angle the Impala uses. This is why MB is lumping the Sprinter in with their retail sales- they are in the relentless pursuit of volume. Yep- I know it's volume isn't huge, but it's the #1 sales grower in the portfolio (up 162% vs. June '10).

In 2007, BMW had the highest percentage of fleet sales in Germany at 67% with Audi right behind them at 66% thus only about 33% going to private customers. By contrast, Mercedes sold 50.1% to private owners. While VW sold 47% to private owners, Ford 41% and Opel 39%. So Mercedes does sell more to private customers than other German domestics. But Mercedes wants fleet sales because their profit margin is very close to their retail sales. Daimler posted $6.3 billion in profit last year and so far 2011 is a record sales year for Mercedes, so they're doing fine.

The thing is BMW and Audi are also doing well this year and the German trio is expected to grow and do well in the future. This is why I think Cadillac has to move fast, and expand globally. They can't rely on a North America only strategy, or cater only to past customers. I just read how of the top 10 car brands bought by Gen Y this year, zero are domestics. Gen X and Gen Y may not be in the luxury car market until the 2020s, but when that time comes Cadillac better have something to attract them, because those buyers favor imports heavily. This would be the one case I would approve of a FWD Cadillac, is for a hot hatch type of car like a Golf GTI or Mini but with more luxury.

[Robert Hall]

I just read how of the top 10 car brands bought by Gen Y this year, zero are domestics. Gen X and Gen Y may not be in the luxury car market until the 2020s

You mean Gen Y and the Millenials...plenty of 30-something and 40-something Gen Xers in the luxury market today..

Edited July 10, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

I just read how of the top 10 car brands bought by Gen Y this year, zero are domestics. Gen X and Gen Y may not be in the luxury car market until the 2020s

You mean Gen Y and the Millenials...plenty of 30-something and 40-something Gen Xers in the luxury market today..

Yes, but may 30 somethings are not yet in the luxury market. Most luxury car brands do attract people in their 50s and up. But from 2015-2030 those 30-45 year olds today will be nearing that age.

The ideal car lineup is small ATS at $33-50k, midsize CTS at $45-65k and a rear drive full size sedan of $75-100k. I would add a sports car, doesn't have to be a $100,000 car, a $45,000 roadster could work. A super car would create more image though. I would also add a car below the ATS, but only after a legit flagship was in place. A $27-33,000 hatchback would get them international sales, and get younger buyers in America. Lexus was sort of after that with the CT200, but they made it ugly, boring and slow. Young people don't want that. They got the fuel efficient part right, but it has to be fun too.

[Robert Hall]

I just read how of the top 10 car brands bought by Gen Y this year, zero are domestics. Gen X and Gen Y may not be in the luxury car market until the 2020s

You mean Gen Y and the Millenials...plenty of 30-something and 40-something Gen Xers in the luxury market today..

Yes, but may 30 somethings are not yet in the luxury market. Most luxury car brands do attract people in their 50s and up. But from 2015-2030 those 30-45 year olds today will be nearing that age.

I was thinking at the entry level...lots of 30-something 3-series, C-class, A4 drivers...

But true, the higher end lux domain is definitely the 50+ crowd..

Edited July 10, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

^ Sales numbers = superiority.

Which is exactly why smk thinks the 1st 5 generations of S-class were inferior to the Fleetwood / Brougham / 60Special.

Well if sales numbers equal superiority, then the DTS was about twice as good as the Lexus LS last month... quite an amazing feat for a discontinued vehicle......

[Drew Dowdell]

The goal of Cadillac should to have Mercedes' volume, price margins, customer loyalty, reputation, image, etc. The goal is to make the Wreath and Crest carry as much weight as the 3-point star. Everything Cadillac does should be done to put them in a position to be on par with Mercedes, that is why I dislike the SRX, and XTS, those are distractions and quick fixes, they aren't solving the problem.

DOHC or not doesn't matter a hill of beans in that regard. For someone who simply wants to go fast with class, power is king, valvetrain configuration is not.

[Drew Dowdell]

Two image aspect Cadillac enjoys over mercedees- far higher private ownership here than mercedes can boast in Germany and vice-versa; far lower fleet sales.

Not that anyone in the U.S. cares about the state of affairs for mercedees in other markets.

Fleet sales do not hurt Mercedes. They almost seem to enhance their reputation as 97% of all governments own an S-class, and over 100 own an armored S-class limo, and many leaders and dignitaries are driven around the fleeted out cars. You may not like how they operate, but they are in 1st place and have been the most successful luxury car brand worldwide over the past 30-40 years.

The question is how does Cadillac (circa 2015) put a vehicle lineup, marketing strategy, etc together to compete with the top tier brands. Cadillac staying status quo and hoping for Mercedes to fall apart is not a good plan.

You mean having a bunch of orange and beige Mercedes cabs running around Germany doesn't hurt image at all?

[smk4565]

The goal of Cadillac should to have Mercedes' volume, price margins, customer loyalty, reputation, image, etc. The goal is to make the Wreath and Crest carry as much weight as the 3-point star. Everything Cadillac does should be done to put them in a position to be on par with Mercedes, that is why I dislike the SRX, and XTS, those are distractions and quick fixes, they aren't solving the problem.

DOHC or not doesn't matter a hill of beans in that regard. For someone who simply wants to go fast with class, power is king, valvetrain configuration is not.

But power and going fast doesn't drive the luxury segment either, most luxury sales are to older folks who want comfort and safety. Being special matters though, I think that is part of the appeal to a V10 M5 or a Ferrari that revs to 8500 rpm, an ordinary car can't rev like that or sound like that. If your luxury car goes and sounds like a Camaro or Charger, it isn't as special. Cadillac has to be different and more special than what Buick or Chevy have, otherwise why pay the extra $25,000.

[smk4565]

Two image aspect Cadillac enjoys over mercedees- far higher private ownership here than mercedes can boast in Germany and vice-versa; far lower fleet sales.

Not that anyone in the U.S. cares about the state of affairs for mercedees in other markets.

Fleet sales do not hurt Mercedes. They almost seem to enhance their reputation as 97% of all governments own an S-class, and over 100 own an armored S-class limo, and many leaders and dignitaries are driven around the fleeted out cars. You may not like how they operate, but they are in 1st place and have been the most successful luxury car brand worldwide over the past 30-40 years.

The question is how does Cadillac (circa 2015) put a vehicle lineup, marketing strategy, etc together to compete with the top tier brands. Cadillac staying status quo and hoping for Mercedes to fall apart is not a good plan.

You mean having a bunch of orange and beige Mercedes cabs running around Germany doesn't hurt image at all?

Apparently not since they sell as well as BMW and Audi with fewer fleet sales. Opel is 61% fleet sales, higher than Mercedes, yet they are still in business and looked at to be the savior of Buick. GM fans here are excited by a $30,000, 182 hp 4-cylinder car because it is imported and new, but they fleet them out in their home market. In the UK, Vauxhall is 55% fleet and the Insignia has 17,000 fleet sales YTD for 2011 while the Passat and Mondeo combined have 19,000. Why do the Buick fans here not complain that the Regal is a fleet queen in Europe? The Insignia is the #1 fleet car in the UK, yet no one is complaining about that.

Europe is a fleet heavy continent. And from Mercedes standpoint, do they care if the Bulgarian government pays 100,000 Euro for an S-class or if retired CEO in Belgium pays 100,000 Euro for it? They are making money either way, and they have a very strong brand image with a very loyal customer base. If their image (as well as BMW's or Audi's) was hurting, another luxury brand would break into Europe, but look how badly Cadillac, Lexus and Infiniti fail when they try.

[dwightlooi]

But power and going fast doesn't drive the luxury segment either, most luxury sales are to older folks who want comfort and safety. Being special matters though, I think that is part of the appeal to a V10 M5 or a Ferrari that revs to 8500 rpm, an ordinary car can't rev like that or sound like that. If your luxury car goes and sounds like a Camaro or Charger, it isn't as special. Cadillac has to be different and more special than what Buick or Chevy have, otherwise why pay the extra $25,000.

Actually, it is special. The problem is that that sound is not associated with elite automobiles because American Muscle hasn't "performed" for a long while. But it will be if a new generation of cars with world beating performance sounds like that and people take notice.

In any case, a Small Block V8 doesn't have to sound one way or another... that's mostly the exhaust. In terms of loud and raw, the Camaro SS or CTS-V are actually less so than a C63 AMG... Have you heard that thing? its as if it has no mufflers or cross over pipe.

Edited July 11, 2011 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

I love the feel of the CTS-V motor. More than enough refinement to be a fine performance machine but just enough "grit" to remind you of the bits of American muscle car DNA still there. In my mind it's exactly what a high performance Cadillac should be.

[dwightlooi]

I love the feel of the CTS-V motor. More than enough refinement to be a fine performance machine but just enough "grit" to remind you of the bits of American muscle car DNA still there. In my mind it's exactly what a high performance Cadillac should be.

Actually, it has less grit than the AMG 6.3 When the car first came out, they invited all the C55 and C32 owners to a test drive hoping to earn some trade-in conversions. I was among those invited... it was, well, the most raucous V8 I have ever driven. Raw, loud, gritty. I would almost swear that the car has straight pipes to the back without mufflers if not for the fact that it actually does.

Next time... when you see a C63 drive by, roll down the windows. IF the guy floors it or even gives it a modest prod, you'll think its trackside at Daytona.

[Lamar]

Actually, it has less grit than the AMG 6.3 When the car first came out, they invited all the C55 and C32 owners to a test drive hoping to earn some trade-in conversions. I was among those invited... it was, well, the most raucous V8 I have ever driven. Raw, loud, gritty. I would almost swear that the car has straight pipes to the back without mufflers if not for the fact that it actually does.

Next time... when you see a C63 drive by, roll down the windows. IF the guy floors it or even gives it a modest prod, you'll think its trackside at Daytona.

Stop your lies, Dwight! The AMG 6.2 CAN'T sound raucous, raw, loud, or gritty! It has DOHC and is hand-built in Germany! It comes with a three-point star! It costs over 10 grand to manufacture! They put it in the S-Class, so it HAS to be the most refined engine in the world!

OK, I'm being silly, but really, who buys an AMG, M, RS, V, or even SS or SRT and expects the engine to be silky smooth all the time? If it does, someone's just wasted their money.

[dwightlooi]

Stop your lies, Dwight! The AMG 6.2 CAN'T sound raucous, raw, loud, or gritty! It has DOHC and is hand-built in Germany! It comes with a three-point star! It costs over 10 grand to manufacture! They put it in the S-Class, so it HAS to be the most refined engine in the world!

OK, I'm being silly, but really, who buys an AMG, M, RS, V, or even SS or SRT and expects the engine to be silky smooth all the time? If it does, someone's just wasted their money.

Actually, I don't think the engine is "unsmooth". It is that the C63 was raw and loud. That, I believe, is mostly the exhaust and most definitely intentional rather than a necesssary measure aimmed at extracting the last few ponies from the powerplant -- the C63 installation "only" made 451hp whereas the same engine in the E63 churns out 518hp.

The engine itself is actually a little on the soft side below 3000 rpm. It doesn't choke or stutter, but it's a little lethargic. I am pretty sure its a case of hot, lumpy cams tempered by VVT such that its no longer lumpy but the engine isn't exactly breathing right either. It starts to wake up at around 4000 rpm and really charges between the mid-4000s and the redline of 6800 rpm. This is a motor you can really "feel" when it gets on cam. It also gets loud when put under load; which is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on whether you are the sort who likes an "aggressive" sounding exhaust note. The shifts are very sharp and fast for an automatic when prodded. When driven gently its smooth from 5 mph and up. From a standstill, if you dab the thottle intentionally then back off you can feel the wet clutch "trying" to figure out what to do, but this is largely a non-issue if the throttle input is consistent (gentle or otherwise).

[dado]

I'm seeing AMG 6.3 l v8 becoming somewhat famous engine here in Europe. At least in some car magazines. But if you look at it isn't anything special in terms of what some people here on forum call high technology.. I mean it is great engine..but it can rev to only 7200 rpm,doesn't have 100 hp/l, doesn't have direct injection..even worse it has very big displacement..and despite all that i didn't read or hear people complaining about it. It is something like small block.

But the differences is Mercedes doesn't put their top engine in cars that cost 30 000$ , share it with cheaper car models (like Cadillac->Chevrolet), make version of it to put it in a cheaper pickup truck and end up with journalist calling their top car (Corvette) sports car with truck based engine (same goes for Dodge Viper). Now we can argue here that people doesn't belive in that crap (truck engine,old tech bla bla) and they are smart and understand advantages (and disadvantages)of CIB engine. But most of the people who i've met doesn't have clue about this things and they trust only what they read in car magazines.

Would DOHC in Cadillac help..well here in Europe, as i see it ..if they put it in cheap chevrolet pickup truck, cheaper cars etc...no it won't..People will still be stuck to their believes that it is a truck engine in a car.

And if it is engine only for Cadillac? Well they can offer CIB the same way. Make special version just for Cadillac.

But they won't . GM wouldn't build v8 if they don't have trucks and pickups to put it in. Maybe "truck based engine in sports car" frase isn't far away from truth as some people would like to think.And in luxury car department truck and engine doesn't go well together here.

[dwightlooi]

I'm seeing AMG 6.3 l v8 becoming somewhat famous engine here in Europe. At least in some car magazines. But if you look at it isn't anything special in terms of what some people here on forum call high technology.. I mean it is great engine..but it can rev to only 7200 rpm,doesn't have 100 hp/l, doesn't have direct injection..even worse it has very big displacement..and despite all that i didn't read or hear people complaining about it. It is something like small block.

But the differences is Mercedes doesn't put their top engine in cars that cost 30 000$ , share it with cheaper car models (like Cadillac->Chevrolet), make version of it to put it in a cheaper pickup truck and end up with journalist calling their top car (Corvette) sports car with truck based engine (same goes for Dodge Viper). Now we can argue here that people doesn't belive in that crap (truck engine,old tech bla bla) and they are smart and understand advantages (and disadvantages)of CIB engine. But most of the people who i've met doesn't have clue about this things and they trust only what they read in car magazines.

Would DOHC in Cadillac help..well here in Europe, as i see it ..if they put it in cheap chevrolet pickup truck, cheaper cars etc...no it won't..People will still be stuck to their believes that it is a truck engine in a car.

And if it is engine only for Cadillac? Well they can offer CIB the same way. Make special version just for Cadillac.

But they won't . GM wouldn't build v8 if they don't have trucks and pickups to put it in. Maybe "truck based engine in sports car" frase isn't far away from truth as some people would like to think.And in luxury car department truck and engine doesn't go well together here.

Well, GM doesn't exactly put her "sports car" Pushrod V8s in Trucks or vice versa. Is it the same architecture? Yes. But the same engines? No. The truck powerplants are typically marketed under the Vortec brand and they typically have a completely different intake assembly. In part this is because the truck engines do not have to observe relatively short hood heights of the Corvettes, Camaros or CTS-Vs. Hence, the truck engines can have pretty tall intake and air box assemblies. The Vortecs also tend to use cam grinds that biases torque output somewhat lower in the rev range and maximize resonance charging and brake specific fuel consumption at the typical "towing" speeds of 2500~3500 rpm.

The current Gen IV Vortec 6200 is the L9H engine which makes 403hp @ 5700 rpm & 417 lb-ft @ 4300 rpm

The LS3 6.2 liter engine in the Camaro SS and "regular" Corvette is makes 436 hp @ 5900 rpm with 428 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm.

The LS7 7.0 liter engine in the Corvette Z06 makes 505hp @ 6300 rpm with 470 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm

The LSA Supercharged 6.2 liter in the CTS-V and Camaro ZL1 makes 556 hp @ 6100 rpm with 551 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm

The LS9 Supercharged 6.2 liter in the Corvette ZR1 makes 638 hp @ 6500 rpm and 604 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm

To say that they are the same engine is like saying that the Toyota Tundra's 5.7 liter DOHC V8 (3UR-FSE) and the Lexus LS's 5.0 V8 (2UR-FSE) or IS-F's 5.0 DOHC V8 (2UR-GSE) is the same engine... they are, after all, the same Toyota UR-series V8 architecture and shares a similar block casting (albiet with different bore and stroke dimensions).

[Lamar]

I'm seeing AMG 6.3 l v8 becoming somewhat famous engine here in Europe. At least in some car magazines. But if you look at it isn't anything special in terms of what some people here on forum call high technology.. I mean it is great engine..but it can rev to only 7200 rpm,doesn't have 100 hp/l, doesn't have direct injection..even worse it has very big displacement..and despite all that i didn't read or hear people complaining about it. It is something like small block.

But the differences is Mercedes doesn't put their top engine in cars that cost 30 000$ , share it with cheaper car models (like Cadillac->Chevrolet), make version of it to put it in a cheaper pickup truck and end up with journalist calling their top car (Corvette) sports car with truck based engine (same goes for Dodge Viper). Now we can argue here that people doesn't belive in that crap (truck engine,old tech bla bla) and they are smart and understand advantages (and disadvantages)of CIB engine. But most of the people who i've met doesn't have clue about this things and they trust only what they read in car magazines.

Would DOHC in Cadillac help..well here in Europe, as i see it ..if they put it in cheap chevrolet pickup truck, cheaper cars etc...no it won't..People will still be stuck to their believes that it is a truck engine in a car.

And if it is engine only for Cadillac? Well they can offer CIB the same way. Make special version just for Cadillac.

But they won't . GM wouldn't build v8 if they don't have trucks and pickups to put it in. Maybe "truck based engine in sports car" frase isn't far away from truth as some people would like to think.And in luxury car department truck and engine doesn't go well together here.

Let's chop this up a bit, as Dwight just did before I could post:

• Only Cadillac that has truck engines is, well, a truck itself (Escalade). The engine in the CTS-V is only in that car and the upcoming Camaro ZL-1, itself a model commanding a higher price. No recent Cadillac V8 has ever been found, as is, in a Chevy truck.
  
• Viper's V10 originated there and then was put in a limited-edition Ram truck, not the other way around.
  
• For what it's worth, the engine in the M5 was in the X5 and X6 first, themselves trucks (er, I mean SAVs).
  
• The diesel in the diesel E, S, ML, and GL Classes? Also in the Sprinter (another truck, basically).
  

Some of the statements in your post are unfounded and can very well be turned around to the European cars. And as far as the points you were making about engines being shared between cheap cars and luxury marques, I'd just like to point out that Audi and SEAT share a few engines...

Edited July 11, 2011 by Lamar

[dwightlooi]

Just the numbers to chew on...

[smk4565]

The AMG 6.3 is being phased out for the new M157 bi-turbo V8 and the M5 is getting a twin-turbo V8, so those will be the engines to measure against. But also by offering something special, I wasn't just meaning on a V-series, I meant whole line up. Even on a lower end Cadillac, there has to be a reason to spend extra for it, if the car is 90% Buick/Chevy, they can't get much of a price premium for that. Then you are just Lexus hoping to sell 3,000 badge jobbed Camrys every month.

[dwightlooi]

The AMG 6.3 is being phased out for the new M157 bi-turbo V8 and the M5 is getting a twin-turbo V8, so those will be the engines to measure against. But also by offering something special, I wasn't just meaning on a V-series, I meant whole line up. Even on a lower end Cadillac, there has to be a reason to spend extra for it, if the car is 90% Buick/Chevy, they can't get much of a price premium for that. Then you are just Lexus hoping to sell 3,000 badge jobbed Camrys every month.

Right, and a Cadillac -- even today -- is not 90% a Chevy. The body styles are completely different, the interiors are remarkably better, you get things like magnetorogical shocks which you don't get in a Chevy, plus you get way more amentities and superior materials. I just don't think that Cadillac necessarily have to have its own line of engines or platform to be competitive. It is more important that those engines and platforms -- whatever they may be shared with -- are very good ones.

BTW, Lexus, had been outselling BMW and Mercedes in the USA for over a decade right up to 2010. If not for the accelerator pedal witch hunt and the Earthquake, it probably will this year as well. And, the "re-badged Camry" (actually its built on the long wheelbase Avalon platform), the ES350 is its best selling car with 16,596 sold -- more than the LS (4,201), IS(13,015), HS(1,357) or GS(2,080) by a significant margin. I think Cadillac or Buick will be very happy to equal Lexus. It is, after all, the #1 luxury brand in the USA.

BTW, I think the Gen V Pushrod engines will compete just fine in naturally aspirated and forcefed forms with the M157 Bi-turbo engine from M-B -- in performance, in fuel economy, in size, in mass and in cost. Just from the anticipated 1 point increase in compression ratio (due to Direct Injection) alone, we can deduce an output increase to about 470 hp NA, 600 with the LSA's level of boost. It is also reasonable to expect around a 1 MPG improvement in fuel ecconomy -- from about 16/24 in an NA 3900 lbs car to about 17/25 and at least equalling the 15/23 MPG of the CTS-V in forced induced form. Both of which are better than the C63's 12/19 MPG or the new 5.5 Bi-Turbo's 15/21 MPG. This is not even counting the effects of added Variable Timing and Cylinder De-activation -- also expected features on the Gen V small block.

Edited July 12, 2011 by dwightlooi

[balthazar]

12/19 is a real embarrassment.

[Robert Hall]

12/19 is a real embarrassment.

Not really..AMG models are luxury-performance cars. The hybrids and diesels have the high mileage covered.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

Actually, if you look at their ratings across the line, they really don't. According to edmunds list, there's exactly 1 model that squeaks over 30 highway. hybrid s-class is the same as the bottom V8: 19/25.

[Robert Hall]

Actually, if you look at their ratings across the line, they really don't. According to edmunds list, there's exactly 1 model that squeaks over 30 highway. hybrid s-class is the same as the bottom V8: 19/25.

They will have more diesels here eventually I'm sure. It's the diesels that get the good mileage. And they have Smart and the A- and B- class models for mileage (A- and B- coming to the US soon).

[balthazar]

^ Undoubtedly that's why the FWD models are coming- as a CAFE crutch for the gas suckers.

It's just interesting how bad, here in 2011, the gas models are.

Smart isn't (yet) badged as a mercedes, so technically it's out. But that gets relatively rotten mileage for a minuscule 2-seater, too.

[smk4565]

12/19 is a real embarrassment.

A CTS-V with automatic is 12/18 mpg.

S63 AMG is 15/22 mpg and you get 590 lb-ft or 664 lb-ft of torque with the performance package. And the E350 Bluetec gets 33 mpg highway, so that is the most fuel efficient Mercedes.

Edited July 12, 2011 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

^ Undoubtedly that's why the FWD models are coming- as a CAFE crutch for the gas suckers.

It's just interesting how bad, here in 2011, the gas models are.

Smart isn't (yet) badged as a mercedes, so technically it's out. But that gets relatively rotten mileage for a minuscule 2-seater, too.

Smart can be included in the same sense that GM has Cadillacs and also the Spark and Sonic at the entry level.

[dwightlooi]

Well, I am to trying to say that Caddys are dramatically more fuel efficient, but that their uber cars are either in the same bracket or slightly better than competing vehicles in the same power & weight class. Comparing a 4300 lbs CTS-V with its 556 hp engine with a 3900 lbs C63 with 451 hp is stretching the the term "in the same power & weight class". And, this is with the current Small Blocks with no variable timing, not cylinder de-activation and no direct injection -- all features we can expect with the next iteration. Hence, it is reasonable to expect the Pushrod design to be fully competitive with DOHC designs both in performance and in fuel economy. That it is also more compact, lighter and cheaper than a similarly constructed DOHC powerplant shouldn't be viewed as demerits.