Car Guys vs Bean Counters

[hyperv6]

I just started readng Bob Lutz's new Book Car Guys vs Bean Counters. This is one of the best books to show the modern workings or should I say non workings of GM in the last 20 year.

Bob give a little past history and also addesses some of what got GM to where they are at today. He details his time there and what he found when he arrived. It goes on with the business think and how they over think many simple common sense things.

I have not gotten all the way through yet but Bob is very candid and many GM people still with GM contributed to the book. I think this is his way to try to make sure things don't go back to what they once were again. In other words it may be directed at the board and gives him the ability to stay what needs said to them. Also I think it will help those in GM still trying to carry out what he started.

This book is much like John Deloreans book On a Clear Day You Can See GM. I think some will in GM will hate it and others will love that some of the foolishness has been exposed since they can not do it themselves. Shame and public knowledge can be a game changer at times.

Also check out Autoline as Bob was on there and spoke on this topic for a half hour.

This book is a must for all GM fans.

Edited June 22, 2011 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

It's on my Kindle...looking forward to reading it.

[Camino LS6]

I may have to go buy it.

[Z-06]

Read it page to page. Fantastic read.

[Chevy Nick]

It's interesting, but what's up with all the political diatribes? did we really need that global warming rant?

[hyperv6]

It's interesting, but what's up with all the political diatribes? did we really need that global warming rant?

The book is his book and his own opinion. Bob has every right to say what he believes just as Al Gore has as much right to publish his opinon too.

[Z-06]

His last three chapters are very insightful. Practically covers general feelings in our political section.

[hyperv6]

I may have to go buy it.

You must. It answers a lot of things we thought we knew but were not sure. Also it reveils how bad somethings were.

I waa amazed when he said Saturn was mad bland because people who bought Saturns were not car people and like bland post modern styling. The first Vue's nose was pointed out as being plain because that the buyers wanted it that way. Who in their right mind would ever think that. It just points out how much lack of common sense and out of touch GM was.

Lutz stated on Autoline that GM has some of the smartest people in the world working for them but they lack the common sense of what to do.

Too often he shows how GM over aynalzes everything and then still make the wrong choice because they just did not use common sense in the end.

[Camino LS6]

So much of that is obvious.

The idea to bring the Ute here as a Pontiac (and maybe now as a GMC), is a great example of GM ignoring the obvious, common-sense solution of branding it as a Chevy El Camino.

Just one clear example of what over-thinking, and second-guessing, creates.

[hyperv6]

So much of that is obvious.

The idea to bring the Ute here as a Pontiac (and maybe now as a GMC), is a great example of GM ignoring the obvious, common-sense solution of branding it as a Chevy El Camino.

Just one clear example of what over-thinking, and second-guessing, creates.

Some of it is so obvious that you can't believe they still did what they did. In the TV interview Lutz points out these facts also in the book.

Chevy was the only division that could have 5 spoked wheels.

Chevy had to have a wide chome band in the grill because people liked it in their trucks?

Pontiac had to have a head rest with a open hole in the center. It cost $15 more because they think Pontiac people expected it?

All Buicks at the time he arrived had to have a sweep sear not matter if it fit the styling or not.

It gets worse.

[SAmadei]

Chevy was the only division that could have 5 spoked wheels.

When was this? I seem to recall a lot of non-Chevies having 5 spoke wheels.

Chevy had to have a wide chome band in the grill because people liked it in their trucks?

Actually, the chrome band BS is what has really driven me away from Chevy in the last decade.

[Robert Hall]

I may have to go buy it.

You must. It answers a lot of things we thought we knew but were not sure. Also it reveils how bad somethings were.

I waa amazed when he said Saturn was mad bland because people who bought Saturns were not car people and like bland post modern styling. The first Vue's nose was pointed out as being plain because that the buyers wanted it that way. Who in their right mind would ever think that. It just points out how much lack of common sense and out of touch GM was.

There is truth to that, though...Saturn catered to the car-as-appliance crowd, like Toyotas do...styling was not a selling point.

[Cory Wolfe]

Chevy was the only division that could have 5 spoked wheels.

When was this? I seem to recall a lot of non-Chevies having 5 spoke wheels.

Chevy had to have a wide chome band in the grill because people liked it in their trucks?

Actually, the chrome band BS is what has really driven me away from Chevy in the last decade.

It just wants a hug.

[hyperv6]

Chevy was the only division that could have 5 spoked wheels.

When was this? I seem to recall a lot of non-Chevies having 5 spoke wheels.

Chevy had to have a wide chome band in the grill because people liked it in their trucks?

Actually, the chrome band BS is what has really driven me away from Chevy in the last decade.

The 5 spoke deal was when Bob arrived at GM.

If you are reading at home wait till you get to the part about APEX. Advance Products Experimentation. A group of non car people who basically free think up crazy ideas that will be the next big hit.

Basically Bob discribes them as artsy free thinking hippies that can't draw. They would come up with ideas like why don't we do a car that flys? Their ideas then are transfered to paper and then to scale models or clays set in Hollywood sets in a studio. Needless to say they were one of the first things to go along with their bean bag chairs.

Bob also points out one of the cars he was shown they were looking at was a 7 passenger Vue. It had a tail tacked on that looked like a extended van. Imagin how that would go over.

He said one mistake he made was the XUV from GMC. He wanted to kill it and then got talked into keeping it. They kept telling him that studies said they would sell 90,000 or more of the long wheel baised moving roof SUV. Well the one year it it 13,000 with many leaks and motor issues.

The Seville that later bacme the STS has a laid back windshield and a flat roof. It made the car look horrible. He asked why the out of proportion roof? The reply was it could use the sun roof from the old car and save money. He told them that why don't you use the roof from the CTS and make the roof correctly proportioned. They liked the idea.

Bob pointed out something we all need to consider here with all future product. The needs of a customer can be satisfied by any 2 year old used car. What Automakers need is cater to the wants ans desires of the public not only to what they need.

One last one The stylist on a new Chevy showed him the new sedan he was doing in the studio. It looked nice and was a big improvment over the old car. The car did not have chrome Day Ligth Openings. [Door window frames]. Bob told the stylist the car needed them and he agreed that it would look much better. The stylist was worried about going over budget and Bob told him if the car fails he will get the blame and if it is a hit they will forgive the cost overun. The car was the 2005 Impala.

The part with Joe Spielman is a classic story from Bob on how they improved the body panel fit and what it took to get it done. Joe the Harley riding Corvette collector made a impression on Bob in several ways.

One last story. They took a Chrysler 300 per managment wanted to know why they GM could not do a car that looked like that. [This was a FWD 300]. They had the car in the studio with over 90 post it notes on GM design rules it broke. Things like tire to fender fit etc. The ash tray that needs to work smoothly at -40 was the worst.

[bobo]

If I recall correctly, each division had a specified number of spokes for their wheels. Chevy had 5, Buick 8, Cadillac 7, Oldsmobile and GMC 6. I don't remember what Pontiac had.

[hyperv6]

If I recall correctly, each division had a specified number of spokes for their wheels. Chevy had 5, Buick 8, Cadillac 7, Oldsmobile and GMC 6. I don't remember what Pontiac had.

The 04 GTP had 10 when Bob got there and then they added a much better looking 5 spoke option that I got on mine.

The 04 GTP was called the bucky beaver when Bob arrived. He fixed what he could and the car we got while not perfect was a lot better than we would have gotten. I saw a photo once of the original and it made the G6 GXP look good.

[Cory Wolfe]

If I recall correctly, each division had a specified number of spokes for their wheels. Chevy had 5, Buick 8, Cadillac 7, Oldsmobile and GMC 6. I don't remember what Pontiac had.

Pontiac has always had a wide mix of whee spokes. Circa 2000, The Sunfire was available with a 3 spoke alloy or 5 spoke hubcap. The Grand Am was available with two 5 spoke alloys, a multispoke alloy, or a 3 spoke hubcap. The Grand Prix was available with a few 5 spoke alloys, 3 (or 9, depending) spoke alloy, or a 5 spoke hubcap. The Bonneville was available with with a 3 (or 6, depending) spoke alloy, 5 spoke alloy, and a multispoke alloy. The Firebird/TA was available with a few 5 spoke alloys or a 3 spoke alloy. The Montana was available with either a 5 spoke alloy or 5 spoke hubcap. Rinse, repeat for both preceding and following years with slight variations here and there.

[SAmadei]

The 5 spoke deal was when Bob arrived at GM.

It must have never actually went into use, because I can recall 5 spoke Pontiac wheels being available for every year between '96 and '06.

One last story. They took a Chrysler 300 per managment wanted to know why they GM could not do a car that looked like that. [This was a FWD 300]. They had the car in the studio with over 90 post it notes on GM design rules it broke. Things like tire to fender fit etc. The ash tray that needs to work smoothly at -40 was the worst.

I can't completely dislike GM's design rules... there have always been minor consistencies even between radically different designs and these consistencies give new GM designs a certain familiarity even if they are new. Obviously, GM took to to the extreme... but now seems to have thrown too much out... as I find a lot of new GM designs very alienating.

If I recall correctly, each division had a specified number of spokes for their wheels. Chevy had 5, Buick 8, Cadillac 7, Oldsmobile and GMC 6. I don't remember what Pontiac had.

Pontiac mostly did 3 or 5. Between '99 and '06, 3 spoke was on the way out, it seemed.

The 04 GTP had 10 when Bob got there and then they added a much better looking 5 spoke option that I got on mine.

Its funny, but I consider the GTP wheels to be 5 hollow spokes, not 10. To me, 10 spoked wheels would need to be laid out equally spaced to be 10 spokes. but I can see what you are seeing, as well.

Edited June 25, 2011 by SAmadei

[hyperv6]

Lets not get to anal on spokes. It was just what Bob wrote in his book that the rule was at the time of his arrival. E mail him and let him know he was wrong.

I am mearely the messenger.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I bought my copy yesterday and plan to start reading it this week.

[Maxy]

I think it is unlikely that any engineer or designer noticed the problem with the operations of the roof or cab ergonomics. Based on my experience with large organizations, the problem is not that everyone is either too stupid or too afraid to report the gaps. It is either that they are literally not heard at all decision-makers who have their own vision and people to act as a buffer against any challenge to the vision, or are simply ignored.

Used Cars

[hyperv6]

I think it is unlikely that any engineer or designer noticed the problem with the operations of the roof or cab ergonomics. Based on my experience with large organizations, the problem is not that everyone is either too stupid or too afraid to report the gaps. It is either that they are literally not heard at all decision-makers who have their own vision and people to act as a buffer against any challenge to the vision, or are simply ignored.

Used Cars

I agree I had the same issues with BFG when it was time to do things for their SEMA display in Vegas every year. Few had the guts to make the call and often lead to increased charges for OT and air freight.

Lutz points out how the structure in GM was to the point there were ruled to follow and few were willing to take the chance and do what was right.

Like the chrome around the windows in the Impala. It looked better and was a must have trim to make the car look better. The guy in charged agreed with Lutz it was needed but was affraid to make the call due to cost overruns. Lutz told him if the car fails you fail if it does well they will overlook and forgive the cost overruns.

Like Lutz first book title Guts is what it takes. along with some common sense. He points out how GM has some of the brightest people around but they are lacking so much in common sense they could not know enough to blow their nose, I have seen this in many managers. They are book smart but idiots when it comes to making a common sense call. I had a President of a local Corp once struggle to tell me what he wanted done on his car. I asked one of the others at his company how they function. The guy said he was a genius when it comes to balancing the books but the guy just could not articulate what he wanted done or what he wanted others to do.

Edited July 1, 2011 by hyperv6