Cadillac died!

[SAmadei]

Bull$h!. You said the CTS isn't large enough for your Benz-loving friends. It's the same size as the E-Class, both exterior and interior dimensions.

And this is where you need GPS.

Did I say that here:

Surprisingly, NONE of the ex-Cadillac owners I know own a CTS. They all own Mercedes now.

Or here?

I didn't just say S-classes... but there are enough of them... some E-classes.

Better go back and reread the thread so you know what you are talking about.

To clarify, they left Cadillac because of size and other Cadillac misfires... they are not coming back because the are happy where they are at.

Also its mostly Benz loving family, not friends, unless bosses are automagically friends. I prefer to think of them as associates. Anyway, they moved to the big Mercedes' years ago... when Cadillac was busy pushing a bunch of tiny Eldos, Sevilles and Cimmarrons... the big Mercs influenced some of their children and grandchildren drive... hence 1 or 2 E classes. They ain't moving back because Merc still makes a flagship and the biggest Cadillac is the size of a medium Buick. Having a flagship that exudes some class, instead of looking like it belongs in a rap video, helps elevate the lesser car lines.

I'm not arguing anything about content, simply size. Cadillac makes big enough cars, with room IMO for a larger flagship one day.

Your arguing. I was sharing anecdotal evidence.

The current planned bigger flagship is a Buick wannabe.

Your new assertion that "Cadillac makes big enough cars" is completely absurd now that the STS and DTS are gone. A Cadillac should be at least large enough to take 3 people to the airport with all of their luggage. Or 4 tall execs to a lunch meeting that doesn't require them getting out of a clown car in their suits. I can't imagine forcing my hypothetical family of four in a CTS, once the children were past 10.

[Croc]

Bull$h!. You said the CTS isn't large enough for your Benz-loving friends. It's the same size as the E-Class, both exterior and interior dimensions.

And this is where you need GPS.

Better go back and reread the thread so you know what you are talking about.

To clarify, they left Cadillac because of size and other Cadillac misfires... they are not coming back because the are happy where they are at.

Also its mostly Benz loving family, not friends, unless bosses are automagically friends. I prefer to think of them as associates. Anyway, they moved to the big Mercedes' years ago... when Cadillac was busy pushing a bunch of tiny Eldos, Sevilles and Cimmarrons... the big Mercs influenced some of their children and grandchildren drive... hence 1 or 2 E classes. They ain't moving back because Merc still makes a flagship and the biggest Cadillac is the size of a medium Buick. Having a flagship that exudes some class, instead of looking like it belongs in a rap video, helps elevate the lesser car lines.

I'm not arguing anything about content, simply size. Cadillac makes big enough cars, with room IMO for a larger flagship one day.

Your arguing. I was sharing anecdotal evidence.

The current planned bigger flagship is a Buick wannabe.

Your new assertion that "Cadillac makes big enough cars" is completely absurd now that the STS and DTS are gone. A Cadillac should be at least large enough to take 3 people to the airport with all of their luggage. Or 4 tall execs to a lunch meeting that doesn't require them getting out of a clown car in their suits. I can't imagine forcing my hypothetical family of four in a CTS, once the children were past 10.

1:

The CTS is not large, and reviews from people I know feel it is not particularly comfortable. Surprisingly, NONE of the ex-Cadillac owners I know own a CTS. They all own Mercedes now.

The CTS is fine (IMHO) as a 3 series competitor, but it is not where Cadillac's breadwinner should be.

2:

I don't really give a rat's ass whether or not your friends/family/associates/whomever ever decide to look at Cadillac again. I honestly don't. Those are most likely lost sales for a variety of reasons. All I was responding to was your claim that the CTS is too small for Cadillac and that Cadillac needs a big barge the size of a DTS or Fleetwood. FACT: Mercedes hasn't been making cars that are any bigger than Cadillacs.

That's all.

3:

Please don't bring up that awful XTS. I'm already on record on this site regarding my thoughts on that abomination of a product decision. Please note I did say "for a bigger flagship one day." One day. Next calendar year is clearly not that day.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Croc

[Justin Bimmer]

The only market which is clearly going to be hurting from the discontinuation of the DTS is the "town car" market. As far as I can tell, Cadillac sales are steady if not up. Luxury is not defined to be purely a RWD car. SUVs have effectively replaced BOF large cars whether you like it or not.

[SAmadei]

1:

The CTS is not large, and reviews from people I know feel it is not particularly comfortable. Surprisingly, NONE of the ex-Cadillac owners I know own a CTS. They all own Mercedes now.

The CTS is fine (IMHO) as a 3 series competitor, but it is not where Cadillac's breadwinner should be.

And nowhere in there did I directly say that the CTS was too small for my particular group of ex-Cadillac owners... only that it is not large and that people I know in RL have not found it particularly comfortable. Those ex-Cadillac owners? Surprise, I'm not riddling them with questions about their tastes, or what they are test driving. Its inappropriate to bring up during the rare times I see them, usually when there is a casket in the room. Should I make a Venn diagram for you? People I know who have test driven the CTS and found it uncomfortable would be in one circle. Ex-Cadillac owners is in another circle that does not intersect the first circle.

2:

I don't really give a rat's ass whether or not your friends/family/associates/whomever ever decide to look at Cadillac again. I honestly don't. Those are most likely lost sales for a variety of reasons. All I was responding to was your claim that the CTS is too small for Cadillac and that Cadillac needs a big barge the size of a DTS or Fleetwood. FACT: Mercedes hasn't been making cars that are any bigger than Cadillacs.

That's all.

Apparently you do. You have a real hard on for misreading between the lines, and it just continues. I NEVER said the CTS is too small for Cadillac. Its too small to be Cadillac's only sedan. Even Lincoln's awful product portfolio still has a relatively large car in the MKS... too bad the boat has already sailed for Lincoln.

Mercedes hasn't been making cars that are any bigger than Cadillacs? ...I'm not going to make you an exhaustive list or exterior and interior dimensions... when in June of 2011 the largest Cadillac car in production is 191.6 inches. The shortest E-class is 191.7... and the S-class is bigger. Christ, Hyundai is making THREE carlines that are bigger than the CTS.

3:

Please don't bring up that awful XTS. I'm already on record on this site regarding my thoughts on that abomination of a product decision. Please note I did say "for a bigger flagship one day." One day. Next calendar year is clearly not that day.

Shall we wait for 2022 for a true flagship? How about 2065? Last time I checked, time was money... and Cadillac is wasting time.

[Croc]

1:

The CTS is not large, and reviews from people I know feel it is not particularly comfortable. Surprisingly, NONE of the ex-Cadillac owners I know own a CTS. They all own Mercedes now.

The CTS is fine (IMHO) as a 3 series competitor, but it is not where Cadillac's breadwinner should be.

And nowhere in there did I directly say that the CTS was too small for my particular group of ex-Cadillac owners... only that it is not large and that people I know in RL have not found it particularly comfortable. Those ex-Cadillac owners? Surprise, I'm not riddling them with questions about their tastes, or what they are test driving. Its inappropriate to bring up during the rare times I see them, usually when there is a casket in the room. Should I make a Venn diagram for you? People I know who have test driven the CTS and found it uncomfortable would be in one circle. Ex-Cadillac owners is in another circle that does not intersect the first circle.

2:

I don't really give a rat's ass whether or not your friends/family/associates/whomever ever decide to look at Cadillac again. I honestly don't. Those are most likely lost sales for a variety of reasons. All I was responding to was your claim that the CTS is too small for Cadillac and that Cadillac needs a big barge the size of a DTS or Fleetwood. FACT: Mercedes hasn't been making cars that are any bigger than Cadillacs.

That's all.

Apparently you do. You have a real hard on for misreading between the lines, and it just continues. I NEVER said the CTS is too small for Cadillac. Its too small to be Cadillac's only sedan. Even Lincoln's awful product portfolio still has a relatively large car in the MKS... too bad the boat has already sailed for Lincoln.

Mercedes hasn't been making cars that are any bigger than Cadillacs? ...I'm not going to make you an exhaustive list or exterior and interior dimensions... when in June of 2011 the largest Cadillac car in production is 191.6 inches. The shortest E-class is 191.7... and the S-class is bigger. Christ, Hyundai is making THREE carlines that are bigger than the CTS.

3:

Please don't bring up that awful XTS. I'm already on record on this site regarding my thoughts on that abomination of a product decision. Please note I did say "for a bigger flagship one day." One day. Next calendar year is clearly not that day.

Shall we wait for 2022 for a true flagship? How about 2065? Last time I checked, time was money... and Cadillac is wasting time.

Wow take a chill pill--you're getting really worked up over this.

Thanks for clarifying your views on the size of the CTS...when you responded that the CTS wasn't large and all your friends drive M-Bs, that's why I responded with the S-Class comment--because that's the Mercedes materially larger than a CTS. If you weren't meaning to link those two thoughts together, then I'll take your word for it.

Please note my verb tense--"hasn't been making"--refers to continual, repeated production over a long period of time. As you note, yes, June 2011 is the first time in a very, very long time (if not ever) that MB has produced something larger than a Cadillac, and only because the DTS is mercifully out of production.

OK, you're starting to get on my nerves with your petty little jabs. Go to the XTS thread for an exhaustive recount of my views regarding that car as well as my views on what a proper large Cadillac should be.

This is the internet. Let's keep things in perspective here. There's no need to take a simple misinterpretation to such a snide, personal level. If you cannot control yourself and be civil, that is not my problem.

[Croc]

Frankly, I think Cadillac is on the right track. I am a firm believer in quality over quantity, so if Cadillac will soldier on with only a few high quality vehicles, I'm OK with that. The CTS offers a complete, full-range model line in the biggest segment of the luxury market, the SRX is a very heart-of-the-market type of vehicle even though I don't personally care for it and think it is a downgrade from the previous-gen model in every area save styling (but it is selling far better), and the Escalade is still the Escalade.

ATS is almost here, and then we have the brainlessly-approved XTS. Save for lacking a true flagship, these product lines will offer a fairly complete lineup in a variety of bodystyles. And remember...Buick had 3 vehicles about 2 years ago and look at them now.

[riviera74]

Just remember where Cadillac was in 1998 . . . . . and look at it now. Cadillac is at least very relevant if not thriving, unlike Lincoln. The current SRX is an acknowledgment to realities of the marketplace: no one buys X3s and X5s, they want RX350/RX400h clones and GM correctly followed the market. The SRX went from 7th in sales to #2 behind the RX series from Lexus: that is HUGE. The ATS is arriving, the CTS is doing well and is filling out properly (perhaps a little underpriced), and the Escalade still works and sells at a time when luxury BOF SUVs seem to be on their way out. The XTS ought to be a NG Lucerne, period. As for a flagship, Cadillac need only look at the Equus and Genesis for inspiration (and what to work on now). They can raise the bar to XJ/7-series/S-class levels soon enough.

Edited June 24, 2011 by riviera74

[walter36]

Cadillac isnt in all that good of shape right now. a rebadged Chevy Equinox, rebadged Chevy Tahoe in which the only diffrence is the grille and seats. and the CTS.

[Croc]

a rebadged Chevy Equinox, rebadged Chevy Tahoe in which the only diffrence is the grille and seats.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Cadillac isnt in all that good of shape right now. a rebadged Chevy Equinox, rebadged Chevy Tahoe in which the only diffrence is the grille and seats. and the CTS.

Really? Then you've never seen or been close enough to a current SRX or Escalade. REBADGED? You need a dictionary my friend to look up the definition. The Canyon and Savana could be called rebadges (or the Colorado and Express, if you're a GMC fan )... but not the SRX or Escalade... don't be a drama queen.

[riviera74]

The current SRX is a Theta-Epsilon while the Equinox/Terrain are strictly Theta. The current Escalade has come a VERY long way from the rebadged 1999 Chevy Tahoe: exclusive engine, exclusive feature set etc. The idea that these are rebadges like back in the '80s or 90's is a massive insult to the engineers behind both vehicles. Whether there should be an SRX or an Escalade is a separate question.

Just because Cadillac no longer has a Caddy-exclusive powerplant (formerly Northstar, replaced by the stillborn Ultra V8) does not mean that Cadillac is dead. The new ATS and especially the building/development of the Converj and the Cien concepts for production attest to that!

[Robert Hall]

The current SRX is a Theta-Epsilon while the Equinox/Terrain are strictly Theta.

I wonder if that really means anything, though. Is there any meaningful difference between 'Theta' and 'Theta-Epsilon' other than the wheelbase..

Both are transverse FWD or AWD w/ the same V6 available. Nothing special.

The current Escalade has come a VERY long way from the rebadged 1999 Chevy Tahoe: exclusive engine, exclusive feature set etc. The idea that these are rebadges like back in the '80s or 90's is a massive insult to the engineers behind both vehicles. Whether there should be an SRX or an Escalade is a separate question.

Shared platform w/ the Tahoe/Suburban/Avalanche/Yukon, a lot of parts shared. Still just a fancy truck, not it's own unique vehicle.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac didn't die, they're just resting. XTS will be here in a couple years.

[Lamar]

Cadillac didn't die, they're just resting. XTS will be here in a couple years.

I'd just as soon wait for '13 and the ATS.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm actually at an impasse on that one. If I had the cash either way, I'm not sure which way I'd go. One of my favorite current GM cars outside of the V-series is a loaded Buick Lacrosse. At the same time, I really miss my '04 CTS which I am hoping the ATS will feel similar to with a better interior

[smk4565]

Cadillac didn't die, they're just resting. XTS will be here in a couple years.

You are pinning Cadillac's future on the XTS? I don't see an oversized Lexus ES350 as the answer to their problems.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac didn't die, they're just resting. XTS will be here in a couple years.

You are pinning Cadillac's future on the XTS? I don't see an oversized Lexus ES350 as the answer to their problems.

Well, the XTS will give them a model to compete w/ the MKS, RL, ES, S80, and 9-5.

[smk4565]

Cadillac didn't die, they're just resting. XTS will be here in a couple years.

You are pinning Cadillac's future on the XTS? I don't see an oversized Lexus ES350 as the answer to their problems.

Well, the XTS will give them a model to compete w/ the MKS, RL, ES, S80, and 9-5.

And the ES is smaller and cheaper than all the others. Look at the rest of the list, all sales duds. Why even bother competing with that.

[Lamar]

Well, the XTS will give them a model to compete w/ the MKS, RL, ES, S80, and 9-5.

Truthfully speaking, though, that should be Buick territory. Not Cadillac.