P-60

[balthazar]

Whole: $1500 (but no title).

Parts available: everything but motor/ trans/ radiator (only a later 350). Lots of solid sheet metal & stainless, no notable options. Has desirable BOP front-loader rear- heavily sought after for vintage drag cars. Seats were re-upholstered, but not factory & not exactly appealing. Hate to break this one up since it still oozes personality & class.... but not my decision/ car. Located in New Brunswick, NJ

Edited June 14, 2011 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

Be cool to get it mechanically fit, clean it up, and bomb around in it as is for a while. The seats are gross, however.

[Robert Hall]

Looks like a candidate for the trendy matte black or gray w/ red wheels w/ Mexican blanket over the front seat style...I saw a '60 Coupe de Ville on the freeway done that way last week..always interesting to see a 50+ yr old car in modern traffic. That 4dr flattop greenhouse is so cool..virtually no blindspots. I wonder what a flattop 2dr ht could look like...

Edited June 14, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[SAmadei]

Be cool to get it mechanically fit, clean it up, and bomb around in it as is for a while. The seats are gross, however.

I don't really like the P-60s, and I agree it would be cool... but no title, no bombing around.

I think the price is too high for something without the title and engine/tranny (and why would someone both yanking the engine tranny out, unless it was nearly new). If P-60s were more collectable, I could see the price being right... but they simply aren't.

[balthazar]

I wonder what a flattop 2dr ht could look like...

I'm sure you can 'wink out' the B-pillar in your imagination:

Really just pushing this as a parts car, but it's complete enough & a Bonne; if someone wanted to get a title they could. It's worth more as parts than as a runner anyway.

Motor was yanked for 1 of 2 reasons: it blew or it went into another car. The motor in there now is unfortunately new- guy says it's a 350, but in glancing at it- the intake is 1980 or newer, which raises the very real specter that it's a 301 instead (last 350 was '77). I'd have to run the block code....

[SAmadei]

Really just pushing this as a parts car, but it's complete enough & a Bonne; if someone wanted to get a title they could. It's worth more as parts than as a runner anyway.

Motor was yanked for 1 of 2 reasons: it blew or it went into another car. The motor in there now is unfortunately new- guy says it's a 350, but in glancing at it- the intake is 1980 or newer, which raises the very real specter that it's a 301 instead (last 350 was '77). I'd have to run the block code....

Yeah, but getting titles is harder and harder and more expensive all the time. You ever try procuring a title for a car left abandoned in a fenced storage area?

Edit: What really irks me is that most "no title" deals are because the current owner misplaced it and are too lazy to go to MVS.

When you said 350, I was figuring it was a SBC... but even a clapped out SBC is not always worth pulling. A "new" 301... LOL. Worth scrap unless somebody has a Trans Am and wants a stock drivetrain.

IIRC, if the intake is post-'80, it has to be a 301/265... and because GM shortened the block height on 301/265s, the only engine a 301/265 intake fits on is a 301/265. Putting it on a P350 would result in huge gaps between the intake and heads.

I'll sing the praises of many bad-rep engines (Olds 307, 403, Chevy 305, 400 SB, Pontiac 151), but the 301/265 gets no love from me. Surprised it would move a '60 Bonne.

Edited June 14, 2011 by SAmadei

[ocnblu]

I think the 1960 Pontiac was the best looking GM car that year... soooo clean.

[balthazar]

I don't know the back story on the title.

Yea- the intake P/N is indicating 301/265, or at the very least- too new to be for a 'real' PMD engine. Whoever DID stick the stock valve covers on it, tho. In thinking about it- I wouldn't expect them to bolt up.....

[SAmadei]

I don't know the back story on the title.

Yea- the intake P/N is indicating 301/265, or at the very least- too new to be for a 'real' PMD engine. Whoever DID stick the stock valve covers on it, tho. In thinking about it- I wouldn't expect them to bolt up.....

The '60 valve covers on a 301? No, they should bolt up... IIRC, nothing special about the heads' geometry on the 301/265, just the block and intake. The heads are standard Pontiac, just not really free breathing. In fact, I think some guys have used 301 heads on "real" Pontiac motors to attempt to increase compression... but I don't remember the details. Only glitch I could see would be metric fasteners, but thats easy enough to get right.

I guy swapping the valve covers would make the engine look correct to the uninitiated. But knowing how short the block is cut down (lighter than a SBC), I would think the engine would get lost in the big Bonne engine compartment, sitting so low.

[balthazar]

It wasn't until I checked the intake # and this conversation... and just looking at the engine shot that the sloppy paint on the grille header seems to confirm the wretched news:

Almost nothing interchanges from the 265/301 to the 'real' engines, including heads. Valve covers and accessories do tho, and headers will fit but not utilize all the bolt holes. There's no aftermarket support, tho.

Edited June 15, 2011 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Maybe it's a 265..those were only built less than 2 years and were rated at a whopping 135hp!

[balthazar]

^ Yeah, I figured the '265' painted on the grille header wasn't just a coincidence, hence my earlier post.

301 had 135-150 HP, I assume the 265 was rated even lower, but I don't care enough to bother looking....

Dad had a 301 in a Safari- actually ran & moved decently (not admirably, but not as bad as one would think, esp in a heavy wagon).

[Robert Hall]

^ Yeah, I figured the '265' painted on the grille header wasn't just a coincidence, hence my earlier post.

Ahh...missed that.

[SAmadei]

Maybe it's a 265..those were only built less than 2 years and were rated at a whopping 135hp!

Wiki is claiming 135hp, but Standard Catalog claims 120hp... I'd go with the lower number. But it had 210 ft-lbs at 1600... that will move around mass...

Speaking of the 265 on the header, thats not far off from the HP levels of the pedestrian 389s in 1960... 245, 281, 303 (excluding Tri-power or more exotic engines)... I'm sure its the cubes, though.... why someone would have painted that to brag about the displacement is beyond me.

Speaking of the 301, I always wonder what could have been if GM didn't kill off the Pontiac engines, considering what Ford did with the 302, knowing that Pontiac had lots of experience getting power out of sub-5.0 engines with the stillborn '69 303.

Edited June 15, 2011 by SAmadei

[SAmadei]

Almost nothing interchanges from the 265/301 to the 'real' engines, including heads. Valve covers and accessories do tho, and headers will fit but not utilize all the bolt holes. There's no aftermarket support, tho.

No, I just double checked, the heads definitely do interchange... but you have to swap the right ones to actually have them work. To have them work well, well, thats another case. A little googling came up with a pretty interesting 301 project into a racecar... dyno'd at 476 hp... using "real" Pontiac heads on a 301. I agree that many parts do not interchange and that there is zero aftermarket support.

[balthazar]

UPDATE: have been shopping parts around, have a guy in Japan on the hook @ $175 for the front bumper, brackets & headlight bezels (plus shipping). Owner pitched the whole car to me today, minus the engine, for $600. I'm thinking @ $500, I'd be in, I should be able to turn $500 profit inside a year without working at it too hard, more over longer time. It would move to my house (free delivery). The motor is worthless anyway; I would only scrap it. There's ONE guy I've found who wants these 265s, but he's in AZ.

I realize most of you have no clue what this is worth in parts/demand, but I would welcome another vehicle that would lower my Average Model Year Owned number (currently stands at 1965 IIRC), and would just enjoy having it around for a while. I say 'while', but the '65 Bonne I bought and decided to strip after about a year is still here too, and I bought that one in '99. Neighbors & room are not issues.

Opinion?

[SAmadei]

For $500, I don't think you could go wrong... after all, you have $175 already spoken for. Yeah, I'd say $500 profit for parts would be realisitic. Plus a little $$ for the scraping of the remains.

I'm surprised the owner would want to keep the engine. LOL.

[balthazar]

^ He has the appearances of being a Pontiac man (owns a '62 LeMans coupe, '67 Cat 4-dr hardtop, plus a '63 LeSabre coupe), but his kneejerk reaction is to slam a Chevy motor in everything, you know; "so you can drive them".

[G. David Felt]

Boy for $500, I would take it and strip it down the the Frame and start over.

I can see this baby with a nice Black Powder coated frame, modern suspension and then put on a RamJet 502 with a 6 speed tranny, properly insulate the body as it would be finished in a Metallic Candy Apple Red with about 6 coats of clear to give it some depth. Decent clean on the simple side 20" rims riding at factory stock height.

No beaner car, but a beautiful P60 with Modern engine, electronics and a paint job.

Drive it around to all the High Schools to show the teens what a real car can look like and then burn it out and show them what real American V8 is all about.

No, gotta go buy a lotto ticket so I can do a project.

[balthazar]

I like most of that daydream, dfelt, tho 20"s are too large - they diminish the sheer size of the car via throwing off the scale. IMO, 17"s are the limit.

You get the scratch together, and I'll get a title for this. Oh, and 389 > 502.

[SAmadei]

I like most of that daydream, dfelt, tho 20"s are too large - they diminish the sheer size of the car via throwing off the scale. IMO, 17"s are the limit.

Agreed.

You get the scratch together, and I'll get a title for this. Oh, and 389 > 502.

I thought the title was long gone. If I was buying cars again, I'd grab it for with a title and put a '59 doghouse on it, as the 1960 nose is perhaps one of my least favorite Pontiacs ever.

[Camino LS6]

If it were a 2-door or a wagon...

[balthazar]

I certainly prefer a split grille on my Pontiacs, but there's nothing wrong with the lines of a P-60, either. In fact, I prefer them to the P-61. This is all academic; as much as I hate to do so, this is a parts car, not a restoration project (so no title is no issue- but I've gone thru that process more than once). I can't hold on to it for 10-20 years until someone 'has' to have a P-60 Bonne flattop.

I'm curious about the trans- I assume they have a THM200 rigged in there, no way could there be an adapter to hook a 265 to a SHM.

Anyway, there's enough decent parts here to tear it down. I would prefer it be inside on concrete than outside on stone tho. I have an empty bay but by 'empty' I mean there's no car in there.

Still thinking on this one...

[GMTruckGuy74]

I might be interested in the rear gas door Pontiac emblem if it's in good shape. What is the emblem on the lower front fender? I found this picture on Google:

I'm guessing it stands for Tri-Power?

[balthazar]

No. There was a dedicated Tri-Power emblem in '58-59... but I'm not finding one for '60. I should know if there was one or not....

What you posted is the Bonneville emblem for '60.

This '60 Bonne is wearing the Tri-P emblem, but it may be a retro-fit.

Edited March 4, 2012 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Well, this beast just followed me home today. I guess it was whispering to me more persistently than I thought. Spent yesterday pulling the motor/trans for the previous owner- it indeed was a THM200 behind the 265. Bumper & headlight bezels are already sold, I will be stripping the rest of whatever is decent & scrapping the remains. Hope I can get into the black quickly...

[G. David Felt]

Good luck Balthazar with getting into the Black ASAP.

Have t say the car does look cute sitting there like that. Weird or what?

Edited March 21, 2012 by dfelt

[GMTruckGuy74]

Cool purchase! Good luck not only recooping your investment but making a healthy profit to boot