Alpha platform in trouble: overweight, over cost

[Camino LS6]

Olds: A TTV6 is going to require heftier chassis bits than a 4, so I suspect it will share the LS upgrades. That, and the fact that a TTV6 is likely to weigh as much as a V8.

SMK: Holden spent a billion on Zeta.

[Camino LS6]

I do doubt that we'll see a TTV6 in the Alpha Camaro though.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't doubt that we will see a TTV6. Chevy almost has to do it in response to an EcoBoost Mustang.

Doesn't mean it would be the top engine though.

The Chevy can hit the weight I mentioned above, and LNF with the turbo revisions would do nicely for a base engine.

[Camino LS6]

I don't doubt that we will see a TTV6. Chevy almost has to do it in response to an EcoBoost Mustang.

Doesn't mean it would be the top engine though.

The Chevy can hit the weight I mentioned above, and LNF with the turbo revisions would do nicely for a base engine.

I say no because of cost and complexity. A TTV6 works for the ATS, but offers little advantage in Camaro. It won't reduce fuel consumption in any appreciable way, yet will cost more to build than a V8. There really isn't much to gain there. At Chevy prices, you get more bang for the buck with a V8.

I could see a juiced-up 4 being the base engine though.

[CanadianBacon94]

True that they can make multiple vehicles out of it. But they can't specialize it for one (or two) kinds of cars though. And the previous generation C-class cost $1.9 billion to develop and that was 10 years ago. Even since the 80s, each S-class cost over $1 billion by itself. I couldn't find the W221's cost, but the W220 S-class was over $1.6 billion to develop and that was late 90s money. I don't know if Cadillac has the funds to spend over $1 billion on the ATS alone, another $1 billion on the CTS, another $1 billion on a large car, etc. The problem GM runs into, is they want to make a 3-series killer, but they also want to build 4 other products off that platform. I think to kill the 3-series, it the platform has to be designed with one thing in mind.

what if they started with the ATS chassis and designed everything out from it, what kind of compromises come from platform sharing?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I hate to be a Bitch, but this is fun to watch ...

[smk4565]

what if they started with the ATS chassis and designed everything out from it, what kind of compromises come from platform sharing?

ATS and Camaro could share, but that means the Camaro isn't the muscle car it is today. The Camaro then becomes more like the 3-series in size and driving dynamics (which is not a bad thing), and more like a Hyundai Genesis Coupe or Nissan 370Z kind of small sports car. But also note how much the Mustang and Camaro outsell the Genesis Coupe and 370Z. And do customers want a Camaro the size of a Cruze with 4 and 6 cylinder power only. But I think when you want to put a bigger car like the CTS on that platform, then a soft riding Buick, somewhere along the line you are trying to put square pegs in round holes.

The challenge Cadillac has is overcoming Mercedes deep pockets. Because Mercedes can spend $2 billion on the C-class, $2B on the E-class/CLS, $2B on the S-class, and all of a sudden it is $6 billion for 3 platforms, although they do make 2 and 4 door of each line. But can Cadillac spend $6 billion for an ATS, CTS, and a real full size car? Probably not, that is why we get the XTS and a Tahoe with bling.

[Drew Dowdell]

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one.

There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

[Camino LS6]

I hate to be a Bitch, but this is fun to watch ...

Care to elaborate?

[Robert Hall]

I hate to be a Bitch, but this is fun to watch ...

Care to elaborate?

Because if as we are led to believe, OoD/Herr Borger is a GM insider, then he knows the truth about these future developments and can just sit back and laugh at our speculation...

[smk4565]

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one.

There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

I know that was staggered, but they roll them out fairly often. Mercedes does spend around $6 billion a year in R&D, although it does go to more than just the car platforms. Mercedes spends nearly what all of GM does on R&D. I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky. In 2007 Mercedes actually spent more in R&D than GM, and GM had 8 brands to spread that across. All I'm saying is Mercedes has deep pockets and Cadillac does not. So Cadillac is forced to platform share, and the Alpha platform may be compromised. Maybe it will be great, but if it falls short of expectations and doesn't match up to the Germans, I won't be surprised either. I think I'd be more surprised if it is really good, rather than watered down.

Edited May 22, 2011 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one.

There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky.

And 50% probably goes to trucks and the rest of the car brands and lines have to squeak by on the remaining 25%

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, but what I'm interested in is what made him laugh.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Camino LS6

[smk4565]

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one.

There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky.

And 50% probably goes to trucks and the rest of the car brands and lines have to squeak by on the remaining 25%

Acording to Daimler's annual report, Mercedes passenger cars got $9.1 billion in R&D spending in 2009-2010. Mercedes trucks another $3.7 billion over 2 years, and Vans/Buses another $1.6 billion. Total of $14.4 billion over two years for Daimler, but Mercedes cars does enjoy 63% of Daimler's big budget. Anyone think GM will give Cadillac $9 billion in 2 years?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah, but what I'm interested in is what made him laugh.

Now you know I don't kiss and tell anymore, last time I did that here about Pontiac dying 3 years before it happened, the angry villagers stormed the castle and wanted to burn and pitchfork Börgerstein ... You remember Tick-Tock don't you? You know what they say, once bitten, twice shy ...

Now, now, Cubical-aka-Moltar, I have nothing left to prove, especially to you. Everything I said comes to pass, Holden GTO pulled, No G8 ST, No G8, Opel won't be sold, we could go on but I digress. Camino, it wasn't a laugh as much as a smirk, seeing all the speculation, I find it amusing to say the least. All I will say on this subject ... Later y'alls ...

[§carlet §wordfish]

But why do you have to be so damn smug about it?

[CanadianBacon94]

what if they started with the ATS chassis and designed everything out from it, what kind of compromises come from platform sharing?

ATS and Camaro could share, but that means the Camaro isn't the muscle car it is today. The Camaro then becomes more like the 3-series in size and driving dynamics (which is not a bad thing), and more like a Hyundai Genesis Coupe or Nissan 370Z kind of small sports car. But also note how much the Mustang and Camaro outsell the Genesis Coupe and 370Z. And do customers want a Camaro the size of a Cruze with 4 and 6 cylinder power only. But I think when you want to put a bigger car like the CTS on that platform, then a soft riding Buick, somewhere along the line you are trying to put square pegs in round holes.

The alpha should be able to handle v-8's, i think a smaller Camaro would be nice, but if the CTS is on this platform i think the Camaro will be somewhere in between. not exactly the size of the ATS, and just because it's based on the ATS doesn't mean it will drive exactly like one, since characteristics can be tuned in through the suspension

[ehaase]

I read somewhere the the Alpha Camaro will be about the size of a Cobalt coupe.

[ZL-1]

I know that was staggered, but they roll them out fairly often. Mercedes does spend around $6 billion a year in R&D, although it does go to more than just the car platforms. Mercedes spends nearly what all of GM does on R&D. I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky. In 2007 Mercedes actually spent more in R&D than GM, and GM had 8 brands to spread that across. All I'm saying is Mercedes has deep pockets and Cadillac does not. So Cadillac is forced to platform share, and the Alpha platform may be compromised. Maybe it will be great, but if it falls short of expectations and doesn't match up to the Germans, I won't be surprised either. I think I'd be more surprised if it is really good, rather than watered down.

I don't think GM thinks of its R&D dollars that way. Or, perhaps should I write that I hope GM doesn't think about R&D in that purely brand-oriented way. Corporate R&D is what GM should have, then feeding the innovations to Cadillac 1st (top-end brand, higher margins, blah, blah, blah) and have those innovations trickle down the brand ladder.

[FAPTurbo]

I know that was staggered, but they roll them out fairly often. Mercedes does spend around $6 billion a year in R&D, although it does go to more than just the car platforms. Mercedes spends nearly what all of GM does on R&D. I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky. In 2007 Mercedes actually spent more in R&D than GM, and GM had 8 brands to spread that across. All I'm saying is Mercedes has deep pockets and Cadillac does not. So Cadillac is forced to platform share, and the Alpha platform may be compromised. Maybe it will be great, but if it falls short of expectations and doesn't match up to the Germans, I won't be surprised either. I think I'd be more surprised if it is really good, rather than watered down.

I don't think GM thinks of its R&D dollars that way. Or, perhaps should I write that I hope GM doesn't think about R&D in that purely brand-oriented way. Corporate R&D is what GM should have, then feeding the innovations to Cadillac 1st (top-end brand, higher margins, blah, blah, blah) and have those innovations trickle down the brand ladder.

But 'certain people' don't believe in that. Instead, Cadillac should have its own engines, and own platforms which aren't "shared with a Chevrolet."

[SAmadei]

I read somewhere the the Alpha Camaro will be about the size of a Cobalt coupe.

Wow... that really turns my stomach.

[hyperv6]

I read somewhere the the Alpha Camaro will be about the size of a Cobalt coupe.

Not that small. I was told to expect something just a little smaller than today but it will still have a long wheel base. I was told to expect something along the lines of the Mustang in body lenght and width. Packaging a Camaro into a Cobalt size would prove to be difficult.

But then again there is little info on on the Alpha and even less that is accurate do it is a little early for the sky to fall. Like I have stated the known points of info from GM are pretty dry. PCS is not the only one not talking or giving the GMish criptic clues. They have gone dark and left us with a lot of people speculating on things with little info or no idea.

It is wiser to wait and see what real info comes in the future before this gets too far. I am sure there are going to be things some of us hate but there will be more that we will love. That is just how it works.

[Drew Dowdell]

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one.

There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky.

And 50% probably goes to trucks and the rest of the car brands and lines have to squeak by on the remaining 25%

Acording to Daimler's annual report, Mercedes passenger cars got $9.1 billion in R&D spending in 2009-2010. Mercedes trucks another $3.7 billion over 2 years, and Vans/Buses another $1.6 billion. Total of $14.4 billion over two years for Daimler, but Mercedes cars does enjoy 63% of Daimler's big budget. Anyone think GM will give Cadillac $9 billion in 2 years?

But that budget also includes things like the A-Class, B-Class, and R-Class which Cadillac isn't and shouldn't compete with. And Mercedes does mix-n-match their platforms, engines and transmissions around.

[ZL-1]

But 'certain people' don't believe in that. Instead, Cadillac should have its own engines, and own platforms which aren't "shared with a Chevrolet."

And to some extent I agree with them: it is much better, marketing-wise, to say Chevy is sharing the Cadillac technology then marketing the thing upside down as GM effectively does now.

[hyperv6]

Sharing is a fact of life and it is not going away as it is the only way they can the number of Cadillacs they do without jacking the price to a level no one would pay.

But with that said I would like to see Cadillac if they have to use the Chevy V8 do things to it that Chevy does not get. While it may share the engines and platform they could still afford to put a little more effort into these vehicles to make them somthing more than just another Chevy platform or powertrain.

Daimler did this with the older Benz items and used them at Chrysler. Few people ever realized how much old Benz parts were in their new RWD cars.

I would love to see a LSC engine. A direct injected engine based on the LS with Cadillac specific tuning. They could do their own intakes and own tuning to the point they could get more HP than other applications or more smoothness etc. GM has done this in the past. My Fiero has a 2.8 Chevy in it but it came with it's own fuel system, intake, exhaust, GM performance cam and larger valve heads. Only a few parts were shared witht he X-11 version. Also they could dress the engines in their own trim vs just sticking a cheap plastic cover over it. Make this something you would want to show to your friends and open the hood. People see my Fiero V6 think I dressed it up and are shocked it came this way with red powder coat and generous aluminum parts and stainless fasteners.

As for the platforms I do not see an issue here as much as they really do change these platforms so much few know what is shared. Even the 70's Seville to this day few knew it was really sharing Nova and Camaro parts under it.

Preception is the name of the game. If it looks expensive or different it has to be better in the eyes of the public. GM has no issues with tuning and performance in all areas as of now. Most of the issiues are mostly preception.

Edited May 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

I think division specific tunes of "base" GM engines is a great idea!

[ZL-1]

I think division specific tunes of "base" GM engines is a great idea!

I think that's where thry sould head towards as well. But make sure to give Cadillac (perhaps the Corvette can be paired with Cadillac on that innovation schedule) precedence in the application of innovations, even if for just a couple of model years.

[hyperv6]

There is little reason they it could not be done with todays cars. With the new electronics tuning is an easy thing to do today.

Let Cadillac lead the way and get the newest and best first and as they move up give the old engines still relevent engines to Chevy.

Same with the Transmissions.

On the Turbo engines adding power is very easy and the premium fuel required would not scare of Cadillac buyers.

But they should dress the engines for each division. The plastic covers are ok for Chevy but GM should do better with Buick and Cadillac. Details like this do not go unnoticed. Some of the best cars in the world spend time on how the engine is presented. Some do such a good job they put a window over it like Ferrari.

This is where Gm really went wrong on the F body etc. GM should have dressed the LS and LT engines to make them different. Also they should have given Pontiac a little more HP. While 10-20 HP may not seem like much it would have given people a better reason to buy a Pontiac other than different sheetmetal. It also would have given brag rights. Pontiac could and should have gotten better every thing like headlights etc.

Today GM needs to share but they also can afford to do some things to make people want the next car up. Every Chevy Driver should wish and hope for a Buick some day and every Buick owner should wish for a Cadillac someday. In the end all other make owers should want to buy GM because of the precieved quality, options and styling along with price.

Here is something GM as a whole needs to live by.

"That which is good or great makes itself known, no matterhow loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to lives -lives." the Penalty of Leadership.

Cadillac Motor Company Advertisment, 1915

This was true back then and can again be true for GM again. GM and the divisions it has can again be all they can be if they do what needs to be done. They need to target the other companys and keep away from the inhouse rivalry that has plauged them for years.

While Cadillac may not compete head to head with Benz next year or the year after there is no reason why they can't work to that goal. Just building a flagship will not do it but building a strong division a model at a time can do it.

Lexus was not taken seriously at first but today they are respected. The Alpha can too be a building block to the future. It may not dominate the 3 series but it can continue to chip away as the CTS has. Cadillac moving to the lead will take some time but it is do able. If it was not do able then they may as well shut the doors.

The big thing with Caddy is if you pay more you should get more. In fact you should get the best GM has and it should never be directly shared intact with a Chevy. You can share the basic platforms and engines but give the buyer something that he can only get in a Cadillac.

Edited May 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[dwightlooi]

I won't give Caddy the "new" stuff and Chevys the "old" stuff. I'll just give Caddy's a different version of the same stuff.

For example, Chevys may get a 87 Octane version of the LFX engine with 11.5:1 Compression Ratio rated at 318~323hp. Caddys can get a 12.8:1 version of the same engine requiring 91 Octane and rated at 360hp. From a manufacturing standpoint the 2 engines share 95% of the components, differing only in the pistons, camshafts and ECU firmware. This keeps the supply chain uniform and lowers logistical costs. It also allows GM to make technological progress without half the brands always lagging.

[hyperv6]

Hmmmm? I wonder if there is really anything to this.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/25/next-chevy-corvette-to-offer-small-displacement-turbo-v8/

A 3.0 TT DOHC V8 for the Vette. Hmmmm I am sure Cadillac would find a suited place for this engine too.

Now before anyone here starts spouting numbers on an engine we have not even confirmed let alone know what I will have lets just see what pans out. The high tech aspect would play well with the Euro buyers. Marketing is 50% of the luxury market. It is not really how fast they will drive it but the number and technology they show off. Hell Benz puts speed limiters on their most of their cars and no one really cares.

Note this engine as discribed here is similar to the new Mclaren. It is one sweet engine and somthing GM could do if funded right.

Sharing of Cadillac and Vette is very acceptable in my view. Besides with the turbo Cadillac can tune to their own needs very easy.

Also to consider that Chevy is going back to Indy. A smaller DOHC Turbo would play into the marketing for the Vette. Also Pratt and Miller are looking at doing a Daytona protype racer just waiting for a better engine.

Edited May 25, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

a 3.0 TT V8?

[hyperv6]

a 3.0 TT V8?

That is what the claim is. Well just over 3.0 liters is the claim.

Quote ":Just how small, exactly? TDB reports that the next Corvette's European-style V8 could measure in at just over 3.0 liters, using an overhead-cam setup and dry sump oil system. With the aid of turbocharging, unnamed GM sources expect that this engine will deliver "in excess of 400 horsepower," or about 125 hp per liter. What's more, the smaller V8 could be of the extremely high-revving nature, with TDB citing that engine revs could handle up to 10,000 RPM."

I know there has been a lot going on we have little to no clue on and this could be one of the things they have been working on. GM is moving forward into the future now with the better cash flow and they no longer have to continue to rehash the same things over and over and over. I expect we will see a lot of suprises in the next 5-10 years.

I find it interesting on how with this story on how they will keep the traditional buyers happy and go after the high tech crowd at the same time. Not everyone like Chocolate some want Raspberry, So GM is going to give them some?

I just know if there is anything to this GM will not just use this engine in one car unless they buy it from someone else and I really don't see them doing that. With the Viper coming with help from Ferrari they need to step up their game some if they want to remain king of the American hill. One would have to assume the same engine would be a nice fit for a CTS or ATSv.

[Drew Dowdell]

So what if this 3.0T we've been hearing about isn't a V6, but a V8? Enclave 3.0T V8?

[smk4565]

So what if this 3.0T we've been hearing about isn't a V6, but a V8? Enclave 3.0T V8?

The Enclave needs over 400 hp? Shouldn't Cadillac have the best engines at GM?

[Drew Dowdell]

I didn't say TT, just T.

[hyperv6]

So what if this 3.0T we've been hearing about isn't a V6, but a V8? Enclave 3.0T V8?

You may be onto something.

[regfootball]

a half of that v8, a 1.5 turbo with 200+ hp in a sonic would rock

[Drew Dowdell]

Adding DI and upping the turbo in the existing 1.4 should get you fairly close to that.