A Lambda for Cadillac

[riviera74]

I personally have seen a few members post that Cadillac needs a Lambda vehicle to replace the Escalade (currently a GMT-900). Given that Buick already has the Enclave, why would Cadillac need to do that? Vote and discuss.

[smk4565]

Lambda is wrong wheel drive for Cadillac. Although I would be in favor of taking the Escalade off GMT900 because it is overly huge and gets about 14 mpg. Making the Escalade a more gas friendly crossover is a good idea, but not on Lambda, we already have 3 of those.

[Justin Bimmer]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

[dwightlooi]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Nah... Escalades do not have to have great fuel economy or smaller size. For that Caddy already has the Theta based SRX. Escalades should remain a big SUV with a BIG engine, there is still a demand for that kind of thing.

[smk4565]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Nah... Escalades do not have to have great fuel economy or smaller size. For that Caddy already has the Theta based SRX. Escalades should remain a big SUV with a BIG engine, there is still a demand for that kind of thing.

Let's see how long that demand lasts at $4.25 a gallon. Especially if other automakers make 3 row big crossovers with diesels or hybrids. And what if gas hits $5 a gallon in a couple years. Better to be ahead of the curve, rather than stuck with a big truck with a thirsty engine when the market goes somewhere else.

[FAPTurbo]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Nah... Escalades do not have to have great fuel economy or smaller size. For that Caddy already has the Theta based SRX. Escalades should remain a big SUV with a BIG engine, there is still a demand for that kind of thing.

Let's see how long that demand lasts at $4.25 a gallon. Especially if other automakers make 3 row big crossovers with diesels or hybrids. And what if gas hits $5 a gallon in a couple years. Better to be ahead of the curve, rather than stuck with a big truck with a thirsty engine when the market goes somewhere else.

Snoop Dog wannabees will not care about 4.25 a gallon, nor will Range Rover purchasers. There is no reason to get rid of the Escalade. Instead, Caddy just needs to add a middle vehicle to compete against the X5's and Cayenne's.

Perhaps a Sigma II-based crossover, and then the next SRX could fall onto Alpha, perhaps?

[Z-06]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Nah... Escalades do not have to have great fuel economy or smaller size. For that Caddy already has the Theta based SRX. Escalades should remain a big SUV with a BIG engine, there is still a demand for that kind of thing.

Let's see how long that demand lasts at $4.25 a gallon. Especially if other automakers make 3 row big crossovers with diesels or hybrids. And what if gas hits $5 a gallon in a couple years. Better to be ahead of the curve, rather than stuck with a big truck with a thirsty engine when the market goes somewhere else.

Snoop Dog wannabees will not care about 4.25 a gallon, nor will Range Rover purchasers. There is no reason to get rid of the Escalade. Instead, Caddy just needs to add a middle vehicle to compete against the X5's and Cayenne's.

Perhaps a Sigma II-based crossover, and then the next SRX could fall onto Alpha, perhaps?

Well said. Caddy needs Escalade because it is a unique vehicle that has everything paid for by the GMT 900s and thus bringing in handsome dough.

What GM really needs is to gun after the ML, X5, Q7, and Cayenne crowd with something unique. But a Lambda will not cut it.

[PurdueGuy]

If you change Escalade to Lambda, you change the character of the vehicle, and risk defiling its image. And that's a big risk, as many of the people who you'd associate the Escalade image with may not want one if it were just a big crossover. You can take a decent selling high margin vehicle and turn it lame in a heartbeat. With 3 out of 4 brands already having Lambdas, I'd say stop now before it just becomes the same old GM, rebadging each product for every brand. (Not that I feel like the Lambdas have been blatant rebadge job, I think GM has done a reasonable job of differentiating them. But I do have doubts they can do an adequate job a 4th/5th time, and people will hold it against them even if it is properly differentiated.)

[CanadianBacon94]

i'd just put IRS on it for the next Gen, and make the SRX smaller and put something in between it, or make the SRX larger and make a _RX below it.

the Escalade is big, it's brash, its own vehicle it wouldn't be an Escalade other wise. it doesn't need to be smaller, but more fuel efficiency is always a plus, maybe larger two mode electric motors for more assist?

making the Escalade into some crossover would not be good for the Escalade, making a crossover to fit underneath the Escalade would be a good idea

[riviera74]

A seven-passenger, large crossover underneath the Escalade is probably a better idea. One thing: what would happen to the Acadia and/or Enclave if that actually happened?

Edited May 16, 2011 by riviera74

[ehaase]

One thing: what would happen to the Acadia and/or Enclave if that actually happened?

There are rumors the Acadia may be dropped or moved to a stretched Theta platform to make room for a Cadillac Lambda. The Acadia could also remain on Lambda because it's popular.

[Drew Dowdell]

Acadia is moving to something called Theta 5+2 (in reference to the number of seating positions) Though the next generation Theta is actually going to be a Delta variant with more flexibility in size.

[Drew Dowdell]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Lamda is doing well for what it is, but the reason GM keeps trying to make more variants off of it is that it was originally intended to also underpin at least two if not three sedans as well. There was the stillborn Chi platform that was going to be the basis of the Cadillac DT7, NG Buick Lucerne, and Chevrolet Caprice/Impala. GM is trying to make the platform more viable by adding a Cadillac Lambda (as well as fill a hole in the Caddy lineup).

Chi was the sedan version of Lambda.

[Camino LS6]

Escalade replacement should be an AWD Zeta.

Think Denali XT.

[FAPTurbo]

It shouldn't be anything BUT a big, blinged out, hulking SUV based on a truck platform. Otherwise, it won't sell.

[Drew Dowdell]

We are also running a contest to design the next Cadillac crossover.

[dwightlooi]

Let's put it this way... the Escalade buyer isn't interested in efficiently hauling 7 bodies in comfort. He is interested in a big brash vehicle with lots of bling and as far removed from a Prius as possible to say that he is "bad ass". Making the vehicle more fuel efficient, or more space efficient, or more practical, does not appeal to him. If anything the Escalade is drawing the Hummer crowd. This may not be a growth segment for Caddy, but it is a good revenue source that is significant and should be exploited.

Building big trucks and SUVs was NOT a bad idea and is still not a bad idea. What was a bad idea was building ONLY big SUVs, while neglecting sedans, compacts, crossovers and everything else. In this regard, the new SRX and the CTS Wagon represents prudent diversification. Turning the Escalade into something its customers don't want is simply bad business.

[CanadianBacon94]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Lamda is doing well for what it is, but the reason GM keeps trying to make more variants off of it is that it was originally intended to also underpin at least two if not three sedans as well. There was the stillborn Chi platform that was going to be the basis of the Cadillac DT7, NG Buick Lucerne, and Chevrolet Caprice/Impala. GM is trying to make the platform more viable by adding a Cadillac Lambda (as well as fill a hole in the Caddy lineup).

Chi was the sedan version of Lambda.

wouldn't a lambda sedan be extremely heavy?

[Drew Dowdell]

Nothing has really been said about how flexible the Lambda platform is. I wonder if anything other than a 3 row SUV can be produced off of it.

Lamda is doing well for what it is, but the reason GM keeps trying to make more variants off of it is that it was originally intended to also underpin at least two if not three sedans as well. There was the stillborn Chi platform that was going to be the basis of the Cadillac DT7, NG Buick Lucerne, and Chevrolet Caprice/Impala. GM is trying to make the platform more viable by adding a Cadillac Lambda (as well as fill a hole in the Caddy lineup).

Chi was the sedan version of Lambda.

wouldn't a lambda sedan be extremely heavy?

It would probably base around 4,000lbs... which is what the 5-series bases at.

[smk4565]

Well said. Caddy needs Escalade because it is a unique vehicle that has everything paid for by the GMT 900s and thus bringing in handsome dough.

What GM really needs is to gun after the ML, X5, Q7, and Cayenne crowd with something unique. But a Lambda will not cut it.

Well they tried that for one generation of the SRX, and then gave up and built a cheap FWD SUV to get volume. Had the SRX been redone the right way, on Sigma with the new 3.6 DI V6, cancelled Ultra V8, non-existent 8-speed transmission, and non-existent diesel V6, Cadillac could have played in that crowd.

This tends to be a problem a lot with Cadillac, they want to gun for that high end crowd, then do a half hearted attempt (which a Lambda Escalade would be) then when it flops they pull back and retreat way down the price scale. Allante, XLR, STS-V and original SRX being recent examples.

Personally, I'd make the Escalade a rear drive crossover that is large, but not quite as large as the current model. But Cadillac also has much bigger priorities, so if they can con people into paying $65k for a Tahoe a few more years, they might as well milk it while it lasts. But I wouldn't bet my brand on it, because Hummer looked really strong at one point and was a cash cow, now it is gone. In 2020 the Escalade could be dead too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Such a shame that they are getting all that volume at the same transaction prices the BMW X3 gets.

[CanadianBacon94]

I don't understand why front wheel drive is automatically crappy and half hearted, do you really think that a giant three row crossover is going towards the performance crowd? no in a luxury car the interior is more important than the drive wheels

platform sharing does not make a platform inferior

engine sharing does not make an engine inferior

[SAmadei]

I don't understand why front wheel drive is automatically crappy and half hearted, do you really think that a giant three row crossover is going towards the performance crowd? no in a luxury car the interior is more important than the drive wheels

It involves two things. Using your throttle to steer though a curve and not having to fight wheel spin (or traction control killing your power) if you hit the accelerator a little too hard.

Its not about being in the performance crowd... the FWD/RWD difference is apparent to a knowledgeable driver. Driving my clapped out 307 Buick Estate wagon was more fun that driving nearly any FWD car... that car was slow and couch-like, yet the driving dynamic was still there. It was virtually impossible to get wheelspin... something even the weakest FWD car will do, due to the laws of physics. When I hit the go button, I want traction, not noise. Going around a corner, under power, in a modern 300hp FWD car is somewhat terrifying, as the front wheels fight each other... it feels like traction loss will send you right into the trees.

Luxury car interiors? I hardly notice them unless they are physically stripped out. When I took the rental DTS up into the Cascade mountains for some spirited driving, passing BMWs and Audis on the way, I was very concerned about the drive wheels... as I didn't want to see my interior.

[smk4565]

I don't understand why front wheel drive is automatically crappy and half hearted, do you really think that a giant three row crossover is going towards the performance crowd? no in a luxury car the interior is more important than the drive wheels

RWD car rides and handles better. Regardless of engine power, a RWD car will have smoother ride and handling. That is why Acura and Lincoln are what they are, and Mercedes and BMW are what they are.

If you do a Lambda Escalade, why is someone paying $65,000 for that, when mechanically it is the same as a $30,000 Traverse? Is there really going to be $35,000 put into the interior? The interior better be Jaguar XJ level in that vehicle if that is what they do.

And don't forget CAFE. GM has a ways to go to get their average up. Hyundai already is ahead of the 2015 requirement, but they don't build a full size truck. Where as the GMT900 is GM's top selling platform.

Edited May 17, 2011 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Ride smoothness has a LOT more to do with suspension & rolling stock than which wheels are driven. Handling & ride are NOT the same thing.

[smk4565]

Ride smoothness has a LOT more to do with suspension & rolling stock than which wheels are driven. Handling & ride are NOT the same thing.

I know ride and handling are different, but both increase with RWD. Put any suspension you want on any front driver, it ain't gonna ride like an S-class or a Rolls-Royce Phantom. Plus most front drivers carry 60% of their weight (or more) over the front axle. Lambda is perfectly suitable for Chevy or Buick, but not Cadillac. Cadillac should have RWD. And I would be in favor of a crossover Escalade because they could get weight down which puts V6 engines (gas and diesel) in play and gets gas mileage up.

[riviera74]

Such a shame that they are getting all that volume at the same transaction prices the BMW X3 gets.

That may be true, but I would blame Lexus for the scourge that is the RX300/350. That is what Cadillac aimed for with the new SRX. And Caddy is rewarded with more than double the sales volume at higher prices.

[ZL-1]

I don't understand why front wheel drive is automatically crappy and half hearted, do you really think that a giant three row crossover is going towards the performance crowd? no in a luxury car the interior is more important than the drive wheels

platform sharing does not make a platform inferior

engine sharing does not make an engine inferior

No, but it depends of where one is aiming. For example, my personal opinion is that the SRX should be on Alpha or Sigma. A unibody Escalade could be based on Lambda as a larger crossover is more about being imponent and ostentatious than about offering sports-car-like dynamics.

[Camino LS6]

I've been lambasted for this before, but I'll say it again anyway.

The Escalade's days are numbered - it won't exist as a BOF SUV for very many more years.

That gravy train has been nice for GM, but they had better get moving on a replacement.

[Drew Dowdell]

Such a shame that they are getting all that volume at the same transaction prices the BMW X3 gets.

That may be true, but I would blame Lexus for the scourge that is the RX300/350. That is what Cadillac aimed for with the new SRX. And Caddy is rewarded with more than double the sales volume at higher prices.

Cadillac is in business to make money.... and at least once or twice, they should build something customers want.

[CanadianBacon94]

Ride smoothness has a LOT more to do with suspension & rolling stock than which wheels are driven. Handling & ride are NOT the same thing.

I know ride and handling are different, but both increase with RWD. Put any suspension you want on any front driver, it ain't gonna ride like an S-class or a Rolls-Royce Phantom. Plus most front drivers carry 60% of their weight (or more) over the front axle. Lambda is perfectly suitable for Chevy or Buick, but not Cadillac. Cadillac should have RWD. And I would be in favor of a crossover Escalade because they could get weight down which puts V6 engines (gas and diesel) in play and gets gas mileage up.

Now by he way i am not encouraging a Lambda cadillac, i find it similar to the XTS. But i find the XTS and SRX in needed markets, to me they are just waiting for platforms(i know this is not the best explination), i do not think Cadillac needs a 205 inch suv other than the escalade.

-Cadillac needs to compete head to head with the European makes, especially in sedans such as the C and A TS, i also think they should make a crossover type vehicle off the alpha to compete with the X3, and try to make the SRX lighter unless there is a platform they could use

Last we heard is the CTS on alpha? or is it to big

Edited May 18, 2011 by CanadianBacon94