Can't Get a Brake

[Intrepidation]

Since getting the car out of storage the rotor on the rear passenger side has made a lot of noise, and while both rear rotors had grooves in them, the passenger side had more.

Driver:

Passenger:

So today I had the rotors turned, and the results looked good. Lightly sanded the pads as well. Reassembled everything. Things looked pretty good although when I spun the wheels they still made some noise...

Was getting ready to take it for a drive, so I pressed the pedal down a few times to seat the pads, however on the third or forth try the pedal went to the floor and a heard a "hiss".

Sure enough, fluid is leaking out of the rear line on the driver's side. Terrific. However it wasn't where I was expecting (hose by the caliper).

I guess I should be glad I didn't go for that drive. I have no stopping power at all right now.

[Drew Dowdell]

looks like you have an exhaust leak too?

[Intrepidation]

No?

[Drew Dowdell]

I think it's just a weird shadow/drip in the first picture where the muffler is visible.

[Intrepidation]

Oh, yeah I thought it looked weird too but it's a damp spot where brake fluid has dripped.

[SAmadei]

Yeah, that damp spot on the exhaust threw me for a loop, as well.

I'm not seeing where the leak is... I assume its rusty steel line tucked up in the body. Every brake leak I've ever fixed was rusty steel line and usually tucked up along the frame. Knowing that these lines see really high PSI, I can't understand how they hold up until I brush them lightly and they suddenly fall apart.

I've had cars with 35 year old original rubber lines... torn up, flaking rubber, etc... and never a leak. some of those rubber lines are built to last.

As for no braking power... losing your rear brakes really shouldn't affect the system that dramatically. I would check into that a bit more. In any case, you need to learn the fine art of pumping the brakes. ;-)

[Intrepidation]

Pumping the brakes is what I was doing when the pedal went to the floor!

The leak is most likely one of the rear lines above the fuel tank. Joy for that.

As far as lose of rear brakes effecting the fronts, well I've had it happen twice with the Grand Marquis before we had all new lines installed. Both times were rear line leaks and both times it could barely stop, although it didn't loose its braking power as fast as mine did. I mean I drove it 12 miles on a leaking line (topping the fluid off every so often) to the shop the first time. I think, but can't remember, I drove it very slowly to the shop 4 miles from here. This time all I did was move back and forth in the driveway a couple times and now it just barely stops from a crawl.

Luckily, there's now a shop right next door (he's a nice guy too), so I shop be able to limp it a few yards.

Really sucks though, I could swear when I looked at the lines (at least at the front of the under body) they were still silver and not rusty. I just hope it won't cost too much. No way I'm doing it myself. I hate working under the car (unless I had a lift).

[daves87rs]

Scary stuff when it is brakes....

[Intrepidation]

Even more scary when you consider that

1. I was about to go for a test drive
   
2. I hadn't adjusted the parking brakes and so they do nothing at the moment. Was going to after the test drive.
   

[SAmadei]

I'm not trying to doubt your mechanical abilities with this reply... just trying to post something a bit pedantic that others can learn from...

Pumping the brakes is what I was doing when the pedal went to the floor!

There is pumping... then there is pumping. When you do it just right, you'd be surprised how effective it can be even on really bad brakes. Only times I've had no brakes on any car was when I had nearly no fluid in either system. Its hard to explain, because every system is slightly different... but you have to catch the pedal at the right point coming back up. Catch it just right and the pedal just magically comes back.

Unfortunately, I have WAY too much experience with this.

Years ago, I bled a friends car to find later that it had a diagonal system... not Front-Rear... RR and LF on one half... LR and RF on the other... we bled the rears... he then tested it and nearly killed himself. I got in... pumped it up and stopped it normally back where we could work on it.. Then we bled the fronts and all was good. Oops.

The leak is most likely one of the rear lines above the fuel tank. Joy for that.

Ugh... sounds like fun.

Try to get you guy to flare and use a union to patch things up. I really have never felt good using compression fittings on older steel line.

As far as lose of rear brakes effecting the fronts, well I've had it happen twice with the Grand Marquis before we had all new lines installed. Both times were rear line leaks and both times it could barely stop, although it didn't loose its braking power as fast as mine did. I mean I drove it 12 miles on a leaking line (topping the fluid off every so often) to the shop the first time. I think, but can't remember, I drove it very slowly to the shop 4 miles from here. This time all I did was move back and forth in the driveway a couple times and now it just barely stops from a crawl.

Well, normally when you push the pedal, you are pressurizing the rear section inside the piston, which pushes the front section. Which section controls which half of the system depends on the manufacturer... but the bottom line is that if you lose the pressure in the rear section, the pedal is going to drop a lot... but then hit the internal stop and then push the front section physically. If something is odd about the front section, its going to manifest itself a lot worse after losing the rear section.

The whole point of a dual reservoir system is that half the system should work regardless of how badly the other half fails. I would give the other half of the system a look over.

If you ever do have such a dramatic loss of the system in the future, while driving... don't forget to use the tranny to stop. Sure, its not going to make the tranny happy... but its might save a life or at least a lot of body work. But since automatics don't engine brake the same way, you really almost need to practice the technique ahead of time. It causes the tranny to warm up, but it doesn't actually break anything unless you do something bad... like 75 mph into 1st gear.

Another tip... if you are far from home and need to get home... if you can see the bad section, smash it closed with a hammer, or crimp it. Top off the master cylinder and crawl home. No brake fluid? In the wilderness and going to die? Use water. But be prepared for a nasty flushing process. The 4x4 handbooks have a millions ways to get a busted vehicle home. ;-)

Speaking of brakes, I imagine I'm overdue for a braking surprise. :-( Last braking issue was in 2002. I bet it will be the Caprice that bites me in the ass.

[Intrepidation]

Re: the dual system reservoir. I was under the same impression. Half of my system should still be working, but that's simply not the case. Fronts (the whole system as far as applying the brakes go) were working just fine before so I dunno.

I'll be putting pumping into practice when I go to move it again.

I think as far as engine braking goes I only have 3 and L, which isn't too useful. Another reason I'd like to install AutoStick at some point I guess. Can be done regardless, just glad I didn't have to.

Sounds like you've got a few survival tips huh?

Worse comes to worse, I can actually get pre-bent lines from the dealer, which is kinda nice.

[SAmadei]

I think as far as engine braking goes I only have 3 and L, which isn't too useful. Another reason I'd like to install AutoStick at some point I guess. Can be done regardless, just glad I didn't have to.

Well, I'm not sure Autostick will affect the engine braking situation too much... obviously, you have an extra gear to downshift into, but at least on the GP GTP (with paddle shifters), simply down shifting only gives you so much engine braking... not enough to stop the car from speed quick enough, IMHO.

The trick I find with getting the car to a stop with an automatic... you need to downshift some gears twice to get enough engine braking from it to get into a lower gear. Lets say you are doing 60... shift into 3... as soon as the tranny stops engine braking, shift back into D for a split second... then downshift again... and you get enough engine braking that you can now go for the next gear... in your case, you might need to use 3rd 3 times... before you can use L a couple times. Once below 5 mph... use Reverse to stop the car enough to get into Park. Sounds like a lot of work... but it works pretty fast when you need to.

Sounds like you've got a few survival tips huh?

More or less. Fate hasn't killed me yet. *Knock on wood*. I still worry that I'm losing my edge as I get older, though... I still hate needing a tow for something stupid.

Worse comes to worse, I can actually get pre-bent lines from the dealer, which is kinda nice.

Well, yeah... assuming you don't have to completely disassemble the whole car to get them in place. Granted, you aren't doing the work, but you still are paying for it.

Unfortunately, brake lines usually get installed before everything else. Most repro lines for the old cars are actually cut in half otherwise they are virtually impossible to get on without doing a body-off resto.

Hopefully they are reasonably priced. I've historically just grabbed 2 6' pieces of straight tube and went at it with a bender. Cheap and I'm a glutton for punishment. Even then, I've had some... er... puzzles to get them into place.

[Intrepidation]

Well I limped it over to the shop (literally next door). He's going to do it. I'm looking at about $100 which isn't bad.

[67impss]

Great deal I wouldn't do it for that but I don't have a shop either

[Camino LS6]

I guess I'm too late to suggest stainless lines...

I'm a big fan of only doing that job once.

[Intrepidation]

Stainless coated lines.

[Camino LS6]

Stainless coated?

Never heard of such a thing.