Is there a flagship for Buick?

[riviera74]

I have been looking for a replacement for my 1999 Park Avenue Ultra (the flagship of its day) and according to my local dealer, the Enclave is now considered the flagship for Buick. I really really like the Enclave, but why is a large Lambda crossover considered a flagship? More importantly, why can't Buick get a car that can properly compete with that NEW 2011 Chrysler 300 (or should that be a flagship Cadillac too?)? Indeed, why can't Buick and/or Cadillac get an upgraded version of the Hyundai Genesis as a flagship?

Any thoughts? FWD crossovers do NOT a flagship make, IMHO.

[ocnblu]

To me, the Lucerne, even though I like the car, kind of took a spot between the LeSabre and Park Avenue... it never really had the panache of the Park, imo.

Many here would love to see a new Park Avenue based on the LWB Zeta platform... which is currently sold as a Buick Park Avenue in China.

[riviera74]

To me, the Lucerne, even though I like the car, kind of took a spot between the LeSabre and Park Avenue... it never really had the panache of the Park, imo.

Many here would love to see a new Park Avenue based on the LWB Zeta platform... which is currently sold as a Buick Park Avenue in China.

That is exactly what I am talking about!

[Robert Hall]

I assume once the Lucerne is dropped (is it around for '12?) the LaCrosse will be the flagship....

[riviera74]

I heard from the local dealer that 2011 is the last of the Lucerne and Cadillac DTS. A FWD not-quite large sedan is not a worthy flagship for Buick.

I do like the second-generation LaCrosse, a LOT more than the first-gen. Maybe I am a bit of a traditionalist, especially since the death of dear Oldsmobile seven years ago.

Buick still deserves a RWD flagship: if Chrysler and Hyundai can do it, why won't GM?

[Robert Hall]

Buick still deserves a RWD flagship: if Chrysler and Hyundai can do it, why won't GM?

That is a subject that has been and will continue to be debated here endlessly...GM has the Zeta platform but seems unwilling to utilize it fully in NA..

[smk4565]

Lacrosse will e the top Buick going forward, and that is fine for a top end Buick. If you want a car nicer than that, that is why GM has Cadillac, or there is Lexus, Hyundai, Lincoln, etc. If however, the next Impala is basically what the Lacrosse is now, maybe I could see a rear drive Buick to replace the LaCrosse. Cadillac though should be loaded with rear drive. But Chevy, Buick, Cadillac can't all have rear drive V8 flagships to compete with the Genesis, GM has a hierarchy.

[Robert Hall]

But Chevy, Buick, Cadillac can't all have rear drive V8 flagships to compete with the Genesis, GM has a hierarchy.

Funny how times change...in the mid '90s, Chevy, Buick and Cadillac all had RWD V8 flagships, and Hyundai had vile 4cyl FWD generics only...

[smk4565]

But Chevy, Buick, Cadillac can't all have rear drive V8 flagships to compete with the Genesis, GM has a hierarchy.

Funny how times change...in the mid '90s, Chevy, Buick and Cadillac all had RWD V8 flagships, and Hyundai had vile 4cyl FWD generics only...

Hyundai also currently has 36.6 mpg CAFE, so they already beat the 2015 standard. They can afford to put out some high powered V8s, because they don't need to increase fuel efficiency. GM has to get their fuel economy up. But I guess I was thinking of it as Chevy and Buick can't both build a car like the Genesis or 300C, and both build a big FWD sedan like the LaCrosse Impala. Really, Chevy should make the Impala rwd to go against the Charger, leave the Lacrosse FWD for the non performance crowd, then the Impala and LaCrosse are totally different and not competing against each other.

[Robert Hall]

But I guess I was thinking of it as Chevy and Buick can't both build a car like the Genesis or 300C, and both build a big FWD sedan like the LaCrosse Impala. Really, Chevy should make the Impala rwd to go against the Charger, leave the Lacrosse FWD for the non performance crowd, then the Impala and LaCrosse are totally different and not competing against each other.

Yes...Chrysler has sufficiently differentiated the Charger and 300, GM *could* do something similar w/ Chevy and Buick were they so motivated.

[regfootball]

I'd have liked to see the Park Avenue, but really they can use the LaCrosse as a flagship. what is needed with the LaX is a new interior with the same quality as the Regal, and some special editions and marketing.

Edited May 7, 2011 by regfootball

[ehaase]

Since the market for full size sedans is so small, I believe the Enclave is perfectly fine as Buick's flagship.

[dwightlooi]

Well... I think that Cadillac stole Buick's flagship. The XTS should have been a Buick, it could have been the new Park Avenue, replacing the Lucerne. Big, comfy, state of the art Bi-turbo V6, FWD/AWD and an optional Hybrid drivetrain if you want one. The overall formula fits in more with today's Buicks and today's Caddies.

[ehaase]

My understanding is the XTS is just a stopgap car for DTS buyers and will be offered for only one generation. I don't think Buick needs anything like the XTS because it appears to basically be a LaCrosse with a larger trunk.

[balthazar]

But I guess I was thinking of it as Chevy and Buick can't both build a car like the Genesis or 300C, and both build a big FWD sedan like the LaCrosse Impala. Really, Chevy should make the Impala rwd to go against the Charger, leave the Lacrosse FWD for the non performance crowd, then the Impala and LaCrosse are totally different and not competing against each other.

Yes...Chrysler has sufficiently differentiated the Charger and 300, GM *could* do something similar w/ Chevy and Buick were they so motivated.

If the Impala & the LaCrosse compete with each other, then the 300 & Charger do also.

If anything, the Impala & LaCrosse have a wider 'curb impact' difference than the 300/Charger do, as they share the same brawny silhouette/proportions moreso, IMO.

[dwightlooi]

My understanding is the XTS is just a stopgap car for DTS buyers and will be offered for only one generation. I don't think Buick needs anything like the XTS because it appears to basically be a LaCrosse with a larger trunk.

Well, length of the wheelbase doesn't have to be the differentiating factor. Areas which an "XTS" like Park Avenue could be different from the LaCrosse is as follows:-

• Different Powertrain -- Exclusive 360hp LF3 Biturbo V6 with AWD (eAssist optional)
  
• Additional Technology -- Magnetic Ride Control, Electrochromic windows/moonroof, 4-zone climate control, Active Parking Assist, Infrared Backup Camera, active cruise control, blind spot cameras (triggers with turn signal), aluminum hood, and fenders, automatically leveling/steering HID headlights, powered trunk lid operation, etc.
  
• Superior Luxury -- "Handmade in USA" interior (w/emblem), Napa Leather upholstery, heated and cooled seats with memory foam cushions, lumbar and thigh support adjustable rear seats, real leather wrapped dash and instrument pod, heated steering wheel, real burled walnut trim, Tri-coat paint, 1/2" thick premium carpeting, premium stereo system, headphone jacks for front & rear passengers, solid state refrigerated storage bin, etc.
  
• Enhanced Quiet Tuning -- Additional sound deadening, Acoustic Sandwich Glass all round (vs just front windows), Active Noise Cancellation, Helmholtz resonators in intake & exhaust, viscoelastic sandwich "Quiet Steel" in door and floorpan in addition to firewall, triple layer headliner, etc.
  

These stuff would have raised the price of the LaCrosse to $50K. Instead of not offering them or spreading the LaCrosse price spectrum over $27~50K, you put it in a different car with a different styling and make it your flagship.

Edited May 7, 2011 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

There are no current plans for a flagship sedan above the Lacrosse for Buick. The XTS will be the spiritual successor to the Park Ave and DTS for the time being.

[Paolino]

My understanding is the XTS is just a stopgap car for DTS buyers and will be offered for only one generation. I don't think Buick needs anything like the XTS because it appears to basically be a LaCrosse with a larger trunk.

Well, length of the wheelbase doesn't have to be the differentiating factor. Areas which an "XTS" like Park Avenue could be different from the LaCrosse is as follows:-

• Different Powertrain -- Exclusive 360hp LF3 Biturbo V6 with AWD (eAssist optional)
• Additional Technology -- Magnetic Ride Control, Electrochromic windows/moonroof, 4-zone climate control, Active Parking Assist, Infrared Backup Camera, active cruise control, blind spot cameras (triggers with turn signal), aluminum hood, and fenders, automatically leveling/steering HID headlights, powered trunk lid operation, etc.
• Superior Luxury -- "Handmade in USA" interior (w/emblem), Napa Leather upholstery, heated and cooled seats with memory foam cushions, lumbar and thigh support adjustable rear seats, real leather wrapped dash and instrument pod, heated steering wheel, real burled walnut trim, Tri-coat paint, 1/2" thick premium carpeting, premium stereo system, headphone jacks for front & rear passengers, solid state refrigerated storage bin, etc.
• Enhanced Quiet Tuning -- Additional sound deadening, Acoustic Sandwich Glass all round (vs just front windows), Active Noise Cancellation, Helmholtz resonators in intake & exhaust, viscoelastic sandwich "Quiet Steel" in door and floorpan in addition to firewall, triple layer headliner, etc.

These stuff would have raised the price of the LaCrosse to $50K. Instead of not offering them or spreading the LaCrosse price spectrum over $27~50K, you put it in a different car with a different styling and make it your flagship.

Memory foam seats leave a bad taste in my mouth. I (and many friends) have bought memory foam pillows in the past and they've become hard/lumpy entities that did not work after a year. When they advertise memory foam beds I get wary and wonder if they actually work past a year.

[Chicagoland]

"Well... I think that Cadillac stole Buick's flagship. The XTS should have been a Buick,"

Remember Caddy sits on top of GM hierarchy. And don't forget that GM went Chapter 11, can't afford to whip up a whole line up overnight.

[dwightlooi]

"Well... I think that Cadillac stole Buick's flagship. The XTS should have been a Buick,"

Remember Caddy sits on top of GM hierarchy. And don't forget that GM went Chapter 11, can't afford to whip up a whole line up overnight.

Personally, I don't believe that Buick should be 2nd Tier Luxury whereas Caddy is 1st Tier. There isn't enough room between a top of the line Chevy and an entry Caddy to accomodate or warrant some intermediate brand. Instead, Caddy should be the Performance Luxury brand focusing on taut, RWD vehicles targeting BMW buyers. Buick should be the Comfort Luxury brand catering to the Lexus buyers.

Making the XTS the "new" Lucrene is not whipping the whole lineup. It's still one car, just done as a Buick instead of a Caddy.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS went to Cadillac instead of Buick because they are the ones missing two vehicles in the lineup right now since the DTS and STS are dead. The Lacrosse is doing pretty well in it's market.

[Paolino]

The XTS went to Cadillac instead of Buick because they are the ones missing two vehicles in the lineup right now since the DTS and STS are dead. The Lacrosse is doing pretty well in it's market.

I have to hand it to GM/Buick... the first LaCrosse came out, saw none for almost 2 years. The Lucerne came out, saw a handful. The Enclave came out, saw TONS. The new LaCrosse came out, see tons on the road and it looks damn good. The Regal got a slow start around here but I'm starting to see them pop up on the roads as well. It's nice to see GM is getting it right and the public is responding.

[smk4565]

With the CTS soon to be the middle Cadillac priced in the high $30s, the XTS likely priced in the $45-55k range where the DTS resides, Buick can't really move any farther up market. Buick isn't a luxury brand, it is a medium brand, so if you want a car nicer than Buick, that is why GM has Cadillac.

[Paolino]

With the CTS soon to be the middle Cadillac priced in the high $30s, the XTS likely priced in the $45-55k range where the DTS resides, Buick can't really move any farther up market. Buick isn't a luxury brand, it is a medium brand, so if you want a car nicer than Buick, that is why GM has Cadillac.

Well, I'd consider Buick slightly above your average brand, hence the term "premium brand". If Caddy can successfully position itself higher over a few years, which I don't see it having a problem doing, then there is room for Buick. Works well since Buick will need to stay successful as a "premium brand" and establish itself as such, if they wish to grow a little. With great success in their new vehicles, after several years they'd be able to either push the LaCrosse further upmarket (which is where I think they're going) or add a vehicle above that.

[hyperv6]

Buicks going to be a lexus fighter and Caddy has to move up. That has been the plan but it just got bogged down with the BK.

As for flag ship I see Buick not really going for one great sedan and a then the rest. I see them doing the best they can to beat Lexus in each class and then offer something a little different.

As it is now flag ships at many makes mean little and often are not the most popular car anymore. In the past everyone wanted the largest and most plush but not anymore. There those who what smaller, sportier etc.

Years ago many wanted the Roadmaster but has to settle for a Century. Today not everyone wants that top car and it is not based on price. Anymore the mid size car is the one most like and not all are buying because it is cheaper.

Anymore even if Buick offered a larger car I see the LaCrosse as the most important car.

Agree or not that is just my observation on people and the cars they buy anymore. I see many who can afford the biggest and most expensive buy the lesser car as it fits their needs and taste better.

[Paolino]

Buicks going to be a lexus fighter and Caddy has to move up. That has been the plan but it just got bogged down with the BK.

As for flag ship I see Buick not really going for one great sedan and a then the rest. I see them doing the best they can to beat Lexus in each class and then offer something a little different.

As it is now flag ships at many makes mean little and often are not the most popular car anymore. In the past everyone wanted the largest and most plush but not anymore. There those who what smaller, sportier etc.

Years ago many wanted the Roadmaster but has to settle for a Century. Today not everyone wants that top car and it is not based on price. Anymore the mid size car is the one most like and not all are buying because it is cheaper.

Anymore even if Buick offered a larger car I see the LaCrosse as the most important car.

Agree or not that is just my observation on people and the cars they buy anymore. I see many who can afford the biggest and most expensive buy the lesser car as it fits their needs and taste better.

Did you post that from your phone?

[hyperv6]

Buicks going to be a lexus fighter and Caddy has to move up. That has been the plan but it just got bogged down with the BK.

As for flag ship I see Buick not really going for one great sedan and a then the rest. I see them doing the best they can to beat Lexus in each class and then offer something a little different.

As it is now flag ships at many makes mean little and often are not the most popular car anymore. In the past everyone wanted the largest and most plush but not anymore. There those who what smaller, sportier etc.

Years ago many wanted the Roadmaster but has to settle for a Century. Today not everyone wants that top car and it is not based on price. Anymore the mid size car is the one most like and not all are buying because it is cheaper.

Anymore even if Buick offered a larger car I see the LaCrosse as the most important car.

Agree or not that is just my observation on people and the cars they buy anymore. I see many who can afford the biggest and most expensive buy the lesser car as it fits their needs and taste better.

Did you post that from your phone?

Sorry and yes.

[MyerShift]

A Zeta Park Avenue is a splendid idea to me, but I really feel that the styling is too much a clone of the Commodore. Perhaps the next gen RWD Park Ave would be more appropriate including styling more appropriate for Buick's direction.

There ought to be more than enough room in the portfolio IF IT IS DIFFERENTIATED PROPERLY á la Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. Those two cars could NEVER be confused with one another despite sharing dirty bits.

[riviera74]

A Zeta Park Avenue is a splendid idea to me, but I really feel that the styling is too much a clone of the Commodore. Perhaps the next gen RWD Park Ave would be more appropriate including styling more appropriate for Buick's direction.

There ought to be more than enough room in the portfolio IF IT IS DIFFERENTIATED PROPERLY á la Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. Those two cars could NEVER be confused with one another despite sharing dirty bits.

That is exactly what I want and Buick needs: a Commodore with a Buick package, inside and out.

[dwightlooi]

A Zeta Park Avenue is a splendid idea to me, but I really feel that the styling is too much a clone of the Commodore. Perhaps the next gen RWD Park Ave would be more appropriate including styling more appropriate for Buick's direction.

There ought to be more than enough room in the portfolio IF IT IS DIFFERENTIATED PROPERLY á la Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. Those two cars could NEVER be confused with one another despite sharing dirty bits.

That is exactly what I want and Buick needs: a Commodore with a Buick package, inside and out.

Now, that's backwards... Caddy should be getting a big RWD. Buick should have gotten the XTS.

[riviera74]

Perhaps, if you believe that the Lucerne deserves a second generation. If Buick is FWD comfort luxury all the time, then I would agree with you.

[Potluck]

Memory foam seats leave a bad taste in my mouth. I

You're not supposed to eat them.

[Drew Dowdell]

I wonder if there is still some uneasiness at Buick about being able to move a large sedan basing at $40k. Buick is still in rebuild mode, they might be feeling that they can't support those kind of prices yet.