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Posted (edited)

Getting the younger demographic into Corvettes is going to be a challenge...anecdotally, my friends under 40 that have performance or sporty cars have cars like the WRX, M3, Boxster, G37, 350Z..and they are far outnumbered by the Toyota driving (Prius/Camry/Corolla) car-as-appliance crowd...

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
Posted

The Corvette needs a different interior, different transmission, different engine, different drive wheels, different roof, different styling, different pricing, different seating position, different body material, different greenhouse, different options & different owners. Making it more like 8 or 10 other cars all at once is a good place to start. Oh, and a different name, and sell it in different dealerships. Maybe build it in a different factory, and make the lug nuts thread on in a different rotation.

But definitely & especially; that strong, lightweight body material: get some high tech, heavyweight steel going there to really freshen it up. GT-R uses metal and 19-yr old kids buy those and their dollar bills are crisper. GM cannot keep accepting crumpled, faded dollar bills; the past is gone. :wacko:

F**k it : trash the entire car and start over with something completely different. It may be time to move away from having a world-class iconic sports car. :wacko:

-- -- -- -- --

Seriously, the whole 'gold chain Corvette' stereotype thing peaked in the late '70s, when the Corvette was a white-walled cruiser doing a 15-sec 1/4-mile. Those cars had no respect as performance vehicles, but those days are LONG gone. Time to update the stereotype rolodex.

Again we wrestle with the old tired bogie that every GM car MUST sell tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of a given model, because once during GM's peak, it did. This sort of 'carpet bombing' mindset only leads to cut corners, tons of incentives & fleet sales, decontenting and eroded image & profits. You don't build down to a price point anywhere near this segment & expect long-term success. We've seen that fail in car biz history all too often. SALES VOLUME should NEVER be the goal of the Corvette. Otherwise, just switch Bowling Green over to Impala production and pump up the fleet volume.

  • Agree 2
Posted

Re:Decontenting

I agree that the Corvette should have a high quality interior, but IMO there is a lot of value in offering an entry level model that doesn't have unneeded things like Nav, power seats, etc. You want the Corvette to be respected as a performance vehicle, get it on the track as much as possible. You think someone looking to seriously race a Corvette wants Nav? NO. And the fact of the matter is some racing doesn't allow for removal of stock equipment, even if it's as worthless for racing as nav.

This is not a luxury car, though it should certainly be able to be optioned up with some lux options for those that want it. This is a SPORTS car. Heck, take a look at Porsche & others - they charge MORE for decontented cars, because of weight savings (of course they also throw in some things like lightened parts). Not sure they should go there with the Corvette, but keep in mind that if the target is other true sports cars, a decontented model is more than appropriate, and perhaps could provide for an entry level model at a bit lower entry price than is currently offered.

Posted

Corvette, being built in 1 plant only, should be returned to a 'line item' order sheet, and absolutely offer delete options with an eye toward competition. I don't see it dropping the price from -say- $45K to $35K (and frankly it shouldn't), but it's proper for this segment IMO. That's just good marketing for the Corvette, not an addressing of the supposed 'demographic problem'.

Posted

Corvette, being built in 1 plant only, should be returned to a 'line item' order sheet, and absolutely offer delete options with an eye toward competition. I don't see it dropping the price from -say- $45K to $35K (and frankly it shouldn't), but it's proper for this segment IMO. That's just good marketing for the Corvette, not an addressing of the supposed 'demographic problem'.

Agreed, I don't see any need to get the Corvette in any form under $40k, and see no issue with it starting at $45k. Build a Miata competitor for the $20-40k range, something very competent but ranging from budget sporty car to solid sports car. Corvette should range from undeniable sports car to budget supercar, as it does now.

Posted

Yes, please leave the Corvette largely alone... give the kids a tiny mid-engine roadster like the recent stupidly-named concept. Keep the Corvette aspirational, no compromise high performance V8 front-engine RWD.

Posted (edited)

Chevy has a lot more things to worry about. They have many other products to move forward on before they worry about a cheap roadster. Cars like an Impala need to come out as well as updating the Cruze already as it is a very improved car but is already falling behind.

A small cheap 2 seater is a neat kind of car. But owning one myself I know the limitations these cars present in many areas. I also know that they would not make or break Chevy if they build it or not. Lets face it The Kappa's never saved Pontiac or Saturn. Once Chevy has supassed Ford and Toyota then I would work on a car like this. Till then they would be better off with a small 2+2 coupe that is affordable to someone under 40 years old. Add the features to it that appeal to this age group. There are many in this age group that just don't care for the Camaro or want to pay the price for the MPG and Insurance. They need a small 2+2 that compliments the Camaro not compete with it.

Chevy really needs a coupe that is a world class affordable small car that seats more than 2 people. Target the younger group in price and features they want. The closest Chevy has ever come to offering a car like this was the Cobalt SS. It had the driveline but the fact it was in a old outdated platform killed it. The Cobalt could out run a Mustang around VIR raceway but it just did not have the body and interior to carry the rest of the burden.

Then just evolve the Vette to be cometitive into the future. It will have to become a little different car as it moves to the future. More advance technology will have to play a strong part to keep it at the front of the pack.

Edited by hyperv6
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I mean that car has leaf springs, and basically the same engine since the 1970s. The Corvette also is very plasticy and not very refined, due to the old fashioned blueprint and fiberglass body.

Comments like this lead me to believe that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

  • Agree 2
Posted

I couldn't wait to turn 21 to buy my first Corvette. My parents asked me to wait till I turned 21 so I could afford the insurance. I listen to them. I wanted the true American Sports Car. Power, looks, the best Chevrolet had to offer. Every red blooded American boy wanted one of these cars back in the late 50's,60's and 70's. GM kept raising the price so they made it impossible for a young person to own. Look at all GM car prices. The prices for the complete car line in GM is nuts, plus the most important thing is they LOST the die hard GM customer. A Buick is not a Buick anymore, Chevrolet is not a Chevrolet anymore,Oldsmobile......first to go. Pontiac.....gone. Saturn shouldn't happened,not needed, but Roger Smith (dumb) wanted it. Here's the key, kids (younger generation) don't want American cars. There are plenty of "cheap" used Corvettes and no younger man would buy them. People don't care about buying American cars, they rather buy a $18,000 Nissan, etc than buy a used 95 Corvette for say $10,000. GM lost all these loyal customers because of not following keeping customers.......cradle to the grave. Us die hard GM (Corvette)people are a dying breed, we are the iconic "Oldsmobile" buyer. I thought for sure Toyota would buy GM (you probably laughing) who would believe bankruptcy. GM needs to give Corvettes away to the young star crowd in Hollywood, music types, high profile people in the news (internet, facebook) and put the Corvette out in public view, this goes for all GM products. Make it AMERICAN again to buy GM. Give cheap leases to customers on GM high end (Corvette & Cadillac)cars. GM needs a Joe Pike to "sell" the Corvette. It can be done.

post-9546-0-88948700-1303912979.jpg

  • 1 month later...
Posted

No For one I am not a hater I and most others are open minded enough to understand the big picture and accept both engines. I have all ready ordered my event hat shirt from Badboys Vettes yesterday.

When will you and others learn we are not aginst you we just would like to see the option of two engines offered.

Long live Jake!

  • Disagree 1
Posted

What about the close-mindedness of those who will only consider OHC (to the frequent downside of lesser performance) ??

How can we help them broaden their minds and consider lighter, more compact tech ?? Their old-world way of thinking needs to move forward.

Posted

I was alive when the Mercury Marine-built 32V DOHC ZR-1 Corvette came and went. If it was something wanted by Corvette buyers, Chevrolet would have engineered their own DOHC engine (to bring the cost down) to put into all Corvettes from that time forward. But Corvette buyers preferred the better OHV, pushrod, cam-in-block design. And hence it survives and thrives.

Would we have Porsche dump their flat-6 for America, just because we're more used to V engines? Poppycock, I say.

A huge part of what makes a Corvette a Corvette is its legendary, peerless engine. I'm proud of it.

Posted

I mean that car has leaf springs, and basically the same engine since the 1970s. The Corvette also is very plasticy and not very refined, due to the old fashioned blueprint and fiberglass body.

Comments like this lead me to believe that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Sounds to me like this guy is a Hon-duh lover.

Posted

It has been suggested that there should perhaps be a decontented, perhaps V6 powered Corvette to try to lower the price and make the car more accessible folks in their 20s and 30s. This begs a very simple question -- why not make a car that appeals to this demographic that isn't necessarily a Corvette?

Let's call it the Chevrolet Speed

  • Mid-engine Rear-Drive, 2-seat Coupe w/Scissor Doors, 2950 lbs
  • Hi-Per Struts (Front), Chapmann Struts (Rear), Magnetoreological shocks (Optional)
  • 245/40 R18 Tires (Front), 275/35 R18 Tires (Rear), 4-piston Calipers (All Around)
  • Transverse 2.0 DI-Turbo 4-cylinder Engine (300 bhp @ 6000 rpm / 270 lb-ft @ 2800~5800 rpm / 6350 rpm Rev Limit)
  • 6-speed Manual or 6-Speed Automatic Transmission
  • 0-60 in 5.0 secs
  • $29,995

It doesn't have to be a Corvette

  • Agree 2
Posted

What about the close-mindedness of those who will only consider OHC (to the frequent downside of lesser performance) ??

How can we help them broaden their minds and consider lighter, more compact tech ?? Their old-world way of thinking needs to move forward.

There are bigots on on both sides of this story. It is just is wrong to say the LS engine is just a pick up engine as it is to say DOHC is irrelevant.

Both are very good engine both can be made to perform well and as well as the other in 95% of the places it is used.

It is kind of like racing world wide. Some people love NASCAR as it puts on a good show and draws lots of fans. On the converse some love F1 not so much for the show they put on [unless it rains] but for the technical side of the cars and how they do what they do. There is nothing wrong with either forms and I appreciate both. The same goes for todays engines. Many people in todays market are tech crazy. They want the most advance and most trick engines. Ford has shown with the just what good marketing in a tech driven society can do.

This whole game is more than just numbers and output. It is about marketing and making money. Many people precieve a companies advancement based on their technology hence the many new audio and voice systems in cars. To me they are a waste as much as many see DOHC. But it is what the unwashed masses think that matter as they are the ones laying the money down.

The tech marketing is not just in the car field but phones, appliances and many other daily use items. All or most could be made simpler but it would effect their sales and profits.

The fact is GM has really done litte to promote the advanced LS engine for the most part. To most they think it to be just an updated old SBC. To me it is much more than that since other some bore spacing and other small specs it really is a new engine. I stopped calling it a Small Block long ago since it share little to no parts anylonger.

The fact remains that GM and Chevy are now a world wide brand and must appeal to all types of buyers world wide. The Vette like it or not would have an added advantage overseas as a smaller DOHC engine as they markets expect. The fact is Chevy will have to sell cars over there and to not take the Vette is a mistake they can not make. If they have both engines offer them here and give who ever wants what engine have their choice. Same applies to Cadillac as they must offer what others want and not just America. How many times do they have to fail before they do this. I would expect a ATS with a TT DOHC V8 or V6 would be right on with what they want over there. While they may not doninate the market over there right out of the box they do need to start by selling what they want.

Selling and marketing cars never made sense. The public has always wanted more than they really need. Image is king. The bottom line is any IBC and DOHC engine can be made to do nearly the same thing and handle just as well in any car. To say one is slower or poorer handling is ignorant. Cars are tuned to handle with the power plant given to the car and we already know both engines can make more than enough power.

It is now a adapt or die to a global market. If a company is not selling global cars in the next 10-15 years it will be at a great disadvantage and may be on their way out of the market.

  • Disagree 3
Posted

It has been suggested that there should perhaps be a decontented, perhaps V6 powered Corvette to try to lower the price and make the car more accessible folks in their 20s and 30s. This begs a very simple question -- why not make a car that appeals to this demographic that isn't necessarily a Corvette?

Let's call it the Chevrolet Speed

  • Mid-engine Rear-Drive, 2-seat Coupe w/Scissor Doors, 2950 lbs
  • Hi-Per Struts (Front), Chapmann Struts (Rear), Magnetoreological shocks (Optional)
  • 245/40 R18 Tires (Front), 275/35 R18 Tires (Rear), 4-piston Calipers (All Around)
  • Transverse 2.0 DI-Turbo 4-cylinder Engine (300 bhp @ 6000 rpm / 270 lb-ft @ 2800~5800 rpm / 6350 rpm Rev Limit)
  • 6-speed Manual or 6-Speed Automatic Transmission
  • 0-60 in 5.0 secs
  • $29,995

It doesn't have to be a Corvette

Been done and it was called a Fiero. Chevy already rejected this one in the Mid 70's when GM engineering offer it to them first. The book Inside the Corvette has a good section on this.

A car like this would last 5-7 years at best. Check the life cycles of most low cost sports cars. A marketing manager said these cars are usally good for the stated time span and no more. Only the Vette and Miata have been able to find a solid long term market.

  • Disagree 2
Posted

Aside from price point, the car has some flaws. They have used the same formula for a long time

So has BMW. Either brand's formula is iconic.

thus it looks out dated or old fashioned to younger buyers.

Hence why the C7 is rumored to be smaller, lighter and more efficient. Looks are subjective. Plenty of people my age still find the Corvette to be a hot car. I'm not among them, but they exist.

I mean that car has leaf springs

NO! NO! NO! NOOOO! Not this old chestnut again!

Yes, the car uses leaf-springs. But, the 'leaf spring' argument is only used when the person does not know any better. At least read why the argument is invalid.

and basically the same engine since the 1970s.

I am assuming that was a typo. You meant to say 1997. The LS Series was a clean-sheet design.

The Corvette also is very plasticy and not very refined, due to the old fashioned blueprint and fiberglass body. Asking people to spend $60k for lack of refinement is tough.

Weight, man, WEIGHT! The Corvette is a SPORTS CAR. It needs to be light. Competitors that are substantially more refined can be found, but they cost much more.

The major problems with the Corvette are mainly limited to: Price, and Quality, particularly that of the interior, and overall perception. People do not buy the Corvette because of 'leaf springs' or for having an outdated 'formula.'

Posted

I was alive when the Mercury Marine-built 32V DOHC ZR-1 Corvette came and went. If it was something wanted by Corvette buyers, Chevrolet would have engineered their own DOHC engine (to bring the cost down) to put into all Corvettes from that time forward. But Corvette buyers preferred the better OHV, pushrod, cam-in-block design. And hence it survives and thrives.

Would we have Porsche dump their flat-6 for America, just because we're more used to V engines? Poppycock, I say.

A huge part of what makes a Corvette a Corvette is its legendary, peerless engine. I'm proud of it.

The Lotus Merc project was flawed from the start. They built it way over priced for the time and with technology that was in need of more computer. Today this same type engine could be made in house much cheaper and much better performing.

The Porsche flat 6 is only a shodow of the original motor. It is a opposed flat 6 and that is all it really shares anymore. It is one of the most advanced engines in the world. It now has more valves, Liters and is now should I say it? Water cooling.

There are a lot of things that make a Vette a Vette but even many of these things have changed over the years. Headlights that were open then hide away and now open again. A Split window that was then wasn't and will so be again. Heck the Vette was a inline 6 too but they changed that. Many said the loss of the Big Block was the end of performance it was not.

While change is difficult in the Vette there are things that often are not popular moves at the time but in the long run are accepted.

We will see a lot more changes in the C8 that will shake up some. Half will love them half will hate them and in the end they all come around and keep buying the Vette.

  • Disagree 3
Posted

Ohhhh yes... the Porsche flat 6 is one of the most advanced engines in the world because it has valves, liters and water cooling.

Corvette SBCs used to have carburetors, points and condensers, etc. etc.

Please don't be ridiculous.

Posted

It has been suggested that there should perhaps be a decontented, perhaps V6 powered Corvette to try to lower the price and make the car more accessible folks in their 20s and 30s. This begs a very simple question -- why not make a car that appeals to this demographic that isn't necessarily a Corvette?

Let's call it the Chevrolet Speed

  • Mid-engine Rear-Drive, 2-seat Coupe w/Scissor Doors, 2950 lbs
  • Hi-Per Struts (Front), Chapmann Struts (Rear), Magnetoreological shocks (Optional)
  • 245/40 R18 Tires (Front), 275/35 R18 Tires (Rear), 4-piston Calipers (All Around)
  • Transverse 2.0 DI-Turbo 4-cylinder Engine (300 bhp @ 6000 rpm / 270 lb-ft @ 2800~5800 rpm / 6350 rpm Rev Limit)
  • 6-speed Manual or 6-Speed Automatic Transmission
  • 0-60 in 5.0 secs
  • $29,995

It doesn't have to be a Corvette

like the idea but its pretty much Fiero 2?

I'd like to see an Acura NSX part duex.

For lower price points it really just makes more sense to do something akin to a Cobalt SS. The Cobalt's problem was not its ability, but that no matter how effing well the car performed, it was still a $h!hy cobalt at the end of the day.

Translation, a well done performance Cruze makes a much more sellable proposition in the market.

  • Agree 2
Posted

Ohhhh yes... the Porsche flat 6 is one of the most advanced engines in the world because it has valves, liters and water cooling.

Corvette SBCs used to have carburetors, points and condensers, etc. etc.

Please don't be ridiculous.

To get the emissions and power to keep it viable in todays world Porsche had to advance the motor to the point it only shares only the cylinder numbers and configuration. It would have been cheaper and easier to have go with a V8. Note Porsche considered it a several times but felt they had to keep the flat 6 for tradition and marketing.

If you don'r believe it is that advanced then you go make a Air Cooled 6 that meets todays emissions standards.

The Vette for the most has added FI and a few other things to help with emission but it has still kept the same valve layout and similar head configuration. It did not have to add water cooling and it did not have to add forced induction to make more power less the ZR1. Hell you have me defending the SBC as not having to be as reconfigured to meet the power and emission as easily as an air cooled engine.

Yes the Corvette SBCs has used to have carburetors, points and condensers, etc. etc. But for Porsche it took a lot more just to keep the engine on the market meeting emissions and making the kind of power it needs to meeet or beat some of the V8 engines out there. Porsche could and should have taken the cheaper and easier way out but they did what they did for maketing. They gave the people what they want.

Note that this did not stop Porsche from making the V8 and using it in many other cars they make. They give their customers a choice and they have increased sales and responded to it.

  • Agree 1
  • Disagree 1
Posted (edited)

It has been suggested that there should perhaps be a decontented, perhaps V6 powered Corvette to try to lower the price and make the car more accessible folks in their 20s and 30s. This begs a very simple question -- why not make a car that appeals to this demographic that isn't necessarily a Corvette?

Let's call it the Chevrolet Speed

  • Mid-engine Rear-Drive, 2-seat Coupe w/Scissor Doors, 2950 lbs
  • Hi-Per Struts (Front), Chapmann Struts (Rear), Magnetoreological shocks (Optional)
  • 245/40 R18 Tires (Front), 275/35 R18 Tires (Rear), 4-piston Calipers (All Around)
  • Transverse 2.0 DI-Turbo 4-cylinder Engine (300 bhp @ 6000 rpm / 270 lb-ft @ 2800~5800 rpm / 6350 rpm Rev Limit)
  • 6-speed Manual or 6-Speed Automatic Transmission
  • 0-60 in 5.0 secs
  • $29,995

It doesn't have to be a Corvette

like the idea but its pretty much Fiero 2?

I'd like to see an Acura NSX part duex.

For lower price points it really just makes more sense to do something akin to a Cobalt SS. The Cobalt's problem was not its ability, but that no matter how effing well the car performed, it was still a $h!hy cobalt at the end of the day.

Translation, a well done performance Cruze makes a much more sellable proposition in the market.

Rule for cheap sports cars.

#1 If you are to make a cheap sports car give it an area to carry luggage.

#2 Make it a convertible

#3 Make it appeal to women too.

#4 Don't expect it to last more than 5-9 years.

#5 The Cheaper the sports car the more practical it needs to be and the more it needs to share parts with other models.

If GM were to do a mid engine it would have to be a higher end car. It would be low volume and it will not appeal to many out there. This is a small segment. Many people like these cars but will not buy them as they are not good for much other than driving. Trips are difficult and even a trip to the store can be a challange. These are task few do with an exotic so it is not a problem.

While I would love to see GM do a exotic Mid Engine I just don't see it a great need for them to do. I would rather see them make the Vette smaller and lighter with as much or more power. Moving the engine to the middle is not the great advantage it once was with the new cars longer wheel base. Today you can achieve the 50/50 balance with a front engine and still not get the drop throttle oversteer.

I have had a mid engine for 26 years and know how life is in one. While it is cool and neat to do it right would reduce the market and add a lot to the price. Note while the NSX was a nice car it just never caught on well. The Mid V6 hurt it as well as price. There were many other better options in that price range.

Edited by hyperv6
  • Agree 1
  • Disagree 1
Posted

Lower the price and the average buyer age will drop. The interior still needs improved, but a V6 Corvette at $42k could draw in more sales.

The problem is the Corvette mainly appeals to current Corvette owners and guys that had muscle cars in the 60's and 70's. And that demographic is aging and shrinking. If the Corvette wants younger buyers, the car has to change some. Adding a smaller engine and lower price, along with new styling should help.

  • Disagree 2
Posted

Lower the price and the average buyer age will drop. The interior still needs improved, but a V6 Corvette at $42k could draw in more sales.

The problem is the Corvette mainly appeals to current Corvette owners and guys that had muscle cars in the 60's and 70's. And that demographic is aging and shrinking. If the Corvette wants younger buyers, the car has to change some. Adding a smaller engine and lower price, along with new styling should help.

I'm curious what % of Corvette buyers are under 50..it probably has demographics similar to the Lucerne and DTS, maybe slightly younger.

Posted (edited)

The age of Vette owner ship has gone up with price but also with insurance. Few people under 35 and single will foot the bill on insurance. Insurance is a bigger killer to more buyers than the price.

Edited by hyperv6
Posted

The age of Vette owner ship has gone up with price but also with insurance. Few people under 35 and single will foot the bill on insurance. Insurance is a bigger killer to more buyers than the price.

I paid LESS in insurance for my 2002 Z-06 than I pay for my BMW 330i so no insurance is NOT a factor.

And I was in my 20's when I had the Corvette.

Posted (edited)

The age of Vette owner ship has gone up with price but also with insurance. Few people under 35 and single will foot the bill on insurance. Insurance is a bigger killer to more buyers than the price.

I paid LESS in insurance for my 2002 Z-06 than I pay for my BMW 330i so no insurance is NOT a factor.

And I was in my 20's when I had the Corvette.

Lucky you it is sad but it just does not work that way for everyone. If it did we would have a hell of a lot more 20 somethings driving Vettes.

What I am saying is the fact many in their teens due to age, areas they live and poor shopping for insurance can't often afford a Camaro insurance let alone a Vette or a BMW.

I know when I was in my early 20's I had a clean record and wanted a Z28 TA. I could afford the cars but the insurance was more than I was willing to pay. I could afford it but I was not going to throw money away on just insurance.

I can remember many even with a 2M4 Fiero getting reamed for $1500 a half in the late 80's and early 90's. Sorry but some of this is what drive many of todays youth into Civics and Cobalts not Vettes.

I was lucky on my Fiero at $800 a half when I was working part time and in collage. The insurance agent gave me a $1300 quote on a T top Cutlass with a wimpy 305 V8. I told him I had a clean record and he said he would not even be taling to me if I had any issues.

Back then you did not have a lot of cut rate deals on marginal insurance companies like you do today with Flo.

A friend a few years back bought a Viper. He could afford the car but had to have it in his fathers name so he could insure it at a resonable price. Same on his BMW. He had a clean record.

Not many kids today can afford a new car let alone a new performance car and insure it. This is part of the reason so many are driving crappy cars and they are happy with a video screen and stereo.

Edited by hyperv6
Posted

'Kids' haven't been widely able to afford a performance car and it's insurance since around 1970, but 'kids' don't buy new cars in appreciable numbers.

The fact of the matter lost here is that the average age, period, is getting older, which is why the average car buyer age (not just the Corvette) has been creeping higher.

If marketers were smart from a business standpoint- they would follow the trends of buyer age, not try and twist an established, iconic car to chase a shrinking demographic.

Posted

Got to zig when everyone else zags.

I'm not surprised that Corvette insurance is not as high as some think... it has the same demographics as the DTS, Lucerne, etc. Corvette owners generally baby their cars and you really don't even see too many people on Youtube doing stupid stuff in a 'Vette.

The 20 somethings are currently driving up the insurance rates for Civics and crap.

Posted

Corvette is one of the few products GM has gotten consistently right for many years in a row, don't F-with it!

Some artificial "need" to radically change the formula is the worst kind of foolishness.

Everyone understands what a Corvette is, screw with that at your peril.

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