Routine Honda maintenance is a SCAM!

[Northstar]

Let's first say that this is the first non-GM product my family has owned, and the GM dealership where we always take our vehicles gives us very fair prices.

Anyways, my brother's Civic had it's first service warning light and code come on this week (I guess all Hondas do this). The code was B12, meaning the car thinks it's time for an oil change, air filter change, cabin air filter change, and tire rotation (plus inspection of whatever). My dad called the Honda dealership to see what the code meant, and then scheduled an appointment. They told him it would be $260 to do everything the car "needed."

Now we've only put 3k miles on the car since buying it, and the tires were new when we got it (I could tell because they still had the speed rating dots on them), so rotating the tires seemed unnecessary. That was the first red flag. Second (or first?) red flag was that they said it would be $260! As a result, I did some research. Turns out you can buy Purolator filters from Advance Auto Parts for $26.84 (for both filters, with tax), and it takes literally 2 minutes to change each filter. I took both filters out and inspected them to make sure they actually needed to be changed. They were quite dirty, but it takes no longer than 5 minutes combined to change both, and it probably costs the dealership $20 for these filters, if not less.

So in a few hours I'm going to pick up my order from Advance and install them in their parking lot probably, then take the car to the Honda dealership for an oil change only, and save $200, assuming they don't charge some absurd amount for just an oil change. I plan to check beforehand and will take it to somewhere else if it is a ridiculous amount. I can take it to a local tire and lube place and get a rotation and oil change for $19.95.

[ocnblu]

That's criminal.

[G. David Felt]

Yea, unlike me who is only American auto's, my sisters have bought asian and the oldest always goes with the service lites and after researching I also found out the scam of these idiot lites. My middle sister has since dumped her Honda as it was cheaper to drive an american Tahoe with maintenance than her Honda Odessay Van.

Good Luck with the Civic, a bit small for 6 foot or taller adults, but nice eco cars.

:smilies-38096:

Edited March 25, 2011 by dfelt

[Drew Dowdell]

The oil change on our CR-V is frustratingly difficult and messy, so it's probably wise of you to leave that to the shop.

Don't try and do your own fan belt change either, you need a special wrench and it is likely equally frustrating on the Civic if not more so than the CR-V

[PurdueGuy]

And don't dismiss timing belt replacements. Always good to look into DIY on maintenance items, though. I'm sure you could find GM dealerships that are glad to "scam" by putting very high prices on easy regular maintenance too, but I would guess it's less common.

[Northstar]

Picked up my filters this morning and installed them in the parking lot in no more than 3 minutes, then drove over to a local tire and lube shop, where the car is now. Drove the GTO home after my dad picked me up on the way to work and am currently waiting for them to call me whenever they finish it.

All in all, going to save $210. The tire and lube place also does an "inspection" in addition to the oil, oil filter, and tire rotation for the $19.95, which is basically what the Honda B 1, 2 servicing consists of, besides changing the air filters.

Also, for anyone who buys an interior air filter, you might need to cut off the end of the plastic or whatever the material is on each side of the paper. It fit in the Civic, but if I had scissors I wouldn't have had to jam it in there. Going to take it out and trim it when I get it back so that it fits better. Funny when I took the old one out there was a dead fly in it.

[balthazar]

IMO, this is typical of just about all dealership service centers: they charge a set rate for Work X, but when you break it down like you did- you can see it boils down to preying on those who can't or won't do simple, easy stuff themselves. Even if you paid yourself a reasonable going hourly rate, you'd still undercut the best dealership price handily.

Local garage replaced the idler pulleys on my Silverado, as it shredded it's serpentine belt due to shot bearings in the one pulley.

I offered to pick up the two pulleys at the dealer between the garage & my house the next morning, as they were GM-only pieces.

I did, saved the garage a parts run AND time by being at the parts counter when they opened @ 8AM, asking for the parts (they weren't even in the computer yet, or unboxed).

My truck was up & running in maybe 30 mins, and another car pulled right in after my truck pulled out.

Do you know that the garage was marking the $31 pulleys up to $80!?! FAIL on him for not arranging to put them on his account- he was pissed he weaseled himself out of $50 pure profit on the parts.

Now I know why that garage is closed on Saturdays!!

[siegen]

Let's first say that this is the first non-GM product my family has owned, and the GM dealership where we always take our vehicles gives us very fair prices.

Anyways, my brother's Civic had it's first service warning light and code come on this week (I guess all Hondas do this). The code was B12, meaning the car thinks it's time for an oil change, air filter change, cabin air filter change, and tire rotation (plus inspection of whatever). My dad called the Honda dealership to see what the code meant, and then scheduled an appointment. They told him it would be $260 to do everything the car "needed."

Now we've only put 3k miles on the car since buying it, and the tires were new when we got it (I could tell because they still had the speed rating dots on them), so rotating the tires seemed unnecessary. That was the first red flag. Second (or first?) red flag was that they said it would be $260! As a result, I did some research. Turns out you can buy Purolator filters from Advance Auto Parts for $26.84 (for both filters, with tax), and it takes literally 2 minutes to change each filter. I took both filters out and inspected them to make sure they actually needed to be changed. They were quite dirty, but it takes no longer than 5 minutes combined to change both, and it probably costs the dealership $20 for these filters, if not less.

So in a few hours I'm going to pick up my order from Advance and install them in their parking lot probably, then take the car to the Honda dealership for an oil change only, and save $200, assuming they don't charge some absurd amount for just an oil change. I plan to check beforehand and will take it to somewhere else if it is a ridiculous amount. I can take it to a local tire and lube place and get a rotation and oil change for $19.95.

It is normal for dealers to do this. Most dealers make their profit from the service department. If you have never experienced this before, then the other dealership you go to has good ownership. I'm not saying all dealers try to screw everyone, but most do this sort of thing all the time. And remember that the dealer is privately owned and is not a part of Honda. The dealer purchases cars from Honda to sell. Dealers can sell from multiple brands if they want (Honda/Toyota, etc).

I would be very wary of a $19.95 tire rotation and oil change. I probably would not take any car to a service like that. Chances are they employ high school kids at minimum wage, and you're trusting them to re-torque your wheels back on properly, not over-tighten the oil pan drain screw or oil filter, not ding your paint with the tools, etc. Not to mention the quality of oil and filter they use is probably as low as it gets.

What is the year and mileage of the Civic? Whenever I buy a used car, the first thing I do is replace all the normal wear items. Oil, oil filter, ATF/MTF, air filter, cabin filter, spark plugs, cap & rotor, fuel filter, flush coolant, bleed clutch and brake fluids, etc. All these things can be done yourself (especially on a Civic, ultra easy depending on year) for around $100 in one afternoon/evening.

[balthazar]

Wage paid guarantees nothing.

[siegen]

Wage paid guarantees nothing.

Nothing guarantees anything.

[Northstar]

It's an '09 Civic with 27k miles.

The $19.95 was an "early bird special" only available if you take the car before 9AM.

[Intrepidation]

IMO, this is typical of just about all dealership service centers: they charge a set rate for Work X, but when you break it down like you did- you can see it boils down to preying on those who can't or won't do simple, easy stuff themselves. Even if you paid yourself a reasonable going hourly rate, you'd still undercut the best dealership price handily.

Local garage replaced the idler pulleys on my Silverado, as it shredded it's serpentine belt due to shot bearings in the one pulley.

I offered to pick up the two pulleys at the dealer between the garage & my house the next morning, as they were GM-only pieces.

I did, saved the garage a parts run AND time by being at the parts counter when they opened @ 8AM, asking for the parts (they weren't even in the computer yet, or unboxed).

My truck was up & running in maybe 30 mins, and another car pulled right in after my truck pulled out.

Do you know that the garage was marking the $31 pulleys up to $80!?! FAIL on him for not arranging to put them on his account- he was pissed he weaseled himself out of $50 pure profit on the parts.

Now I know why that garage is closed on Saturdays!!

Yep, typical of dealers. not exclusive to Honda.

Shops get pretty good discounts on parts then charge the customer "list price", which can be almost or more than double their cost.

What I can't stand about every shop I've ever been to is that they all use impact wrenches(!!!) to take off and put back on wheels. That can damage the wheel as well as the rotor.

General rule of thumb is that a place that has low low prices uses low end parts. Of course there's shops that charge as much as shops who use high quality parts and use the low quality parts.

For DIYers, steer far, far, far, far, far away from the low end brands like OE, Driveworks, NTP and Motor City. Spend the extra for TRW, Moog, Remy, and National. I'm sure this is common sense to us, but far warning just the same.

[balthazar]

>>"Shops get pretty good discounts on parts then charge the customer "list price", which can be almost or more than double their cost."<<

Granted; yet I paid over-the-counter price as 'Joe Public', not as any rep of the garage- if the shop gets even MORE off, that's ridiculous.

[Intrepidation]

There's List Price (most expensive), Retail Price (your price, in the middle) and the shop's price(cheapest). They buy it at their price then charge you list.

[siegen]

A markup of double (50% profit margin) is pretty normal on parts for regular shops that don't buy direct. Dealer markup is usually 20%-25%. So an item that a big parts distributor buys for $19.10 from the manufacturer would be sold to the smaller dealers/shops for $25.47 or so, and those dealers/shops would then sell to customers for around $50. Distributors make their profit by selling large quantities at low margin to dealers (who often buy bulk), while shops/dealers make their profit from less quantity, higher margin to customers. There are also some shops that are big enough or lucky enough to buy direct from manufacturer, and can make big 60-70% profit margins.

If the shop is marking a part they bought from a distributor for $31 up to $80, then I think that is a bit much. $60 is a more reasonable price for something like that. Shops often get greedy. There is so much profit to be made on parts, because parts aren't nearly as expensive as most average people think they are.

[ocnblu]

Was the Civic taken to the same dealer that sold it? If so, those items they're charging you for should have been replaced before you bought it. I've never heard of a new car dealer not sending their used cars through the shop to make sure everything's cool before putting them out for sale.

And yes, that service package price is outrageous for a car with only 27k miles on it. Cobalt, Focus or Caliber don't require that much maintenance that early, do they?

I'm going to check my maintenance schedule book for the Fiesta.

Edited March 26, 2011 by ocnblu

[SAmadei]

A markup of double (50% profit margin) is pretty normal on parts for regular shops that don't buy direct. Dealer markup is usually 20%-25%. So an item that a big parts distributor buys for $19.10 from the manufacturer would be sold to the smaller dealers/shops for $25.47 or so, and those dealers/shops would then sell to customers for around $50. Distributors make their profit by selling large quantities at low margin to dealers (who often buy bulk), while shops/dealers make their profit from less quantity, higher margin to customers. There are also some shops that are big enough or lucky enough to buy direct from manufacturer, and can make big 60-70% profit margins.

How can dealers only be marking up 25%? Is GM sticking it to the dealers for parts cost as well?

For example, I don't understand how GM dealers sell the little X-mas tree retainers that hold the inner car doors in place for $3 a piece. Yet everytime that same dealer works on a problem inside the door, they damage about 10-15 of them. Thats $30-$45 in retainers. Does the dealer just eat this? Pass it on to the warranty? Pass it on to the customer? Or do they go up to Advanced Auto and buy a box of 20 not-exactly-right retainers for $3.99?

Dealership pricing has never made sense to me... I've walked in there and spent $60 on a handful of plastic pieces and sometimes walk out with a huge box for $8. Sway bar for the Grand Prix was cheaper at the dealership then any of the parts retailers!

[A Horse With No Name]

That's criminal.

That's correct, sir.

Wage paid guarantees nothing.

You would be sadly correct, sir.

[Nick]

Sounds like a typical service experience to me. There is a damn good reason why I do all the work on the BMW myself...

When I took my bike in for its first inspection/service I was charges $220 bucks for what amounted to little more thanan oil change. I kicked myself real hard for that.

[Northstar]

Was the Civic taken to the same dealer that sold it? If so, those items they're charging you for should have been replaced before you bought it. I've never heard of a new car dealer not sending their used cars through the shop to make sure everything's cool before putting them out for sale.

And yes, that service package price is outrageous for a car with only 27k miles on it. Cobalt, Focus or Caliber don't require that much maintenance that early, do they?

I'm going to check my maintenance schedule book for the Fiesta.

No, we bought it from a Mazda dealer in Chicago (2 hours north) because the price was so good ($4-5k under book value). They did put new tires on it before putting it on the lot, but the filters were not changed.

[Guest Piece of mind]

The car was mostly bought used and  maintenance minder’s come on, on Honda vehicles and you have the  security if anything happens  It will be covered under warranty of having a  certified Honda mechanic working on your vehicle. And if you have a  maintenance minder on your vehicle which you do go ahead and take it to your local 19.95 places you get what you pay for cheap quality oil And I u set paid lube tech who probably could car less if he over tightens your drain bolt. And that’s for all dealerships not just honda