Third Time's The Charm? Cadillac Returns To Europe

[smk4565]

I agree with Z06, Cadillac, like many American car brands has lost it's identity and a lot of the American brands are just chasing or copying what else is out there. Cadillac needs better focus, but at least they have their own look with the sharp edge Art & Science theme. American styling is good, but they need cars that they can sell globally. Only the CTS works outside of the USA, and it barely registers any international sales. Which brings us to the real problem of Cadilac. Most of their line is built of platforms for Chevy/Buick so they are restricted on what they can do. Cadillac needs it's own platforms that are designed with global performance/luxury in mind. Taking LaCrosse and Equinox platforms and trying to make a Mercedes out of it is insane. (this is why Lincoln is in the tank)

Edited April 9, 2011 by smk4565

[balthazar]

I disagree that -for EX- Cadillac improving handling & other aspects of on-road performance is "chasing" anyone, no more than mercedees & BMW "chased" Cadillac in the '60s and '70s and '80s by adding better performance & amenities/technology. Every make tries to improve themselves over time.

Fact of the matter is, the VAST BULK of Cadillac haters have CONTINUALLY bashed Cadillac for not MORE CLOSELY matching BMW & mercedees by having each & ever model in each & every segment, measuring within an inch of the other 2 & matching every option... meanwhile hating on the upcoming XTS for being different in a few specs almost no one in that segment cares about (FWD).

Can't have it both ways.

Edited April 9, 2011 by balthazar

[FAPTurbo]

Cadillac catches hell for not being like the Germans. So they bring the Catera, and that was bad. Haters say Cadillac should find its own direction. So Cadillac creates the CTS and pursues A&S, a wholly original styling direction. But Haters say it is not like the Germans.

Haters, will not cease to hate, and will continue to hate, indefinitely.

Cadillac should not care about Europe. It's a declining continent, full of Haters. So F&*# Europe, and go after markets that are actually growing.

[smk4565]

There is a difference in improving driving dynamics, build quality, and performance so that it is competitive with or beating other luxury brands, and not having identity. Lincoln for example has no identity, unless you call a rebadged Ford with no clear brand image identity. Cadillac needs to improve their products, but they need to have American styling and image, they have to find something they stand for. Cadillac has to build cars that people want, the Germans and Lexus figured this out in the 90s, while Cadillac put square pegs in round holes, which led to Cadillac's downfall. The challenge for Cadillac is to align their products with the others in the luxury market but do it in a unique way that stands out.

And Cadillac can not just ignore Europe. The E.U., China, and U.S. are the 3 major auto markets. Cadillac can't just not compete in one of the big 3, while trailing in the other two. Japan is pretty closed off, so where outside of the U.S. is Cadillac going to get sales? All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year, that gives them economies of scale and ability to spend a lot of R&D dollars per model line. Cadillac will have a hard time keeping up if they only have American sales and no where else to generate revenue.

[ZL-1]

And Cadillac can not just ignore Europe. The E.U., China, and U.S. are the 3 major auto markets. Cadillac can't just not compete in one of the big 3, while trailing in the other two. Japan is pretty closed off, so where outside of the U.S. is Cadillac going to get sales? All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year, that gives them economies of scale and ability to spend a lot of R&D dollars per model line. Cadillac will have a hard time keeping up if they only have American sales and no where else to generate revenue.

[Croc]

There is a difference in improving driving dynamics, build quality, and performance so that it is competitive with or beating other luxury brands, and not having identity. Lincoln for example has no identity, unless you call a rebadged Ford with no clear brand image identity. Cadillac needs to improve their products, but they need to have American styling and image, they have to find something they stand for. Cadillac has to build cars that people want, the Germans and Lexus figured this out in the 90s, while Cadillac put square pegs in round holes, which led to Cadillac's downfall. The challenge for Cadillac is to align their products with the others in the luxury market but do it in a unique way that stands out.

And Cadillac can not just ignore Europe. The E.U., China, and U.S. are the 3 major auto markets. Cadillac can't just not compete in one of the big 3, while trailing in the other two. Japan is pretty closed off, so where outside of the U.S. is Cadillac going to get sales? All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year, that gives them economies of scale and ability to spend a lot of R&D dollars per model line. Cadillac will have a hard time keeping up if they only have American sales and no where else to generate revenue.

Agreed. Cadillac cannot ignore Europe, but it must only pursue it when it has the right offerings. As it is, Cadillac can compete with and beat BMW when it tries to (CTS) but it needs to fully compete across the entire lineup...not just with one model/product family.

[Drew Dowdell]

Japan is pretty closed off, so where outside of the U.S. is Cadillac going to get sales? All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year, that gives them economies of scale and ability to spend a lot of R&D dollars per model line. Cadillac will have a hard time keeping up if they only have American sales and no where else to generate revenue.

All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year by being utter fleet whores outside of the U.S. and selling stripped down models with 180hp 4-cylinder engines.... is that what you want Cadillac to do?

Edit: Can someone photochop a GMC Savanna with the Cadillac Art & Science Logo and then do the same for the Chevy Spark?

[Oracle of Delphi]

The new Cadillac Alpha should be the car Cadillac pushes to the world, and it should be offered in a 4, 6, 8 cyl and diesel configurations, that way the world markets can adjust to their local conditions automatically.

[Drew Dowdell]

Does GM have a new diesel in the works for the Alpha car? I don't think the existing units from Opel have the necessary NHV characteristics.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Does GM have a new diesel in the works for the Alpha car? I don't think the existing units from Opel have the necessary NHV characteristics.

I can neither confirm or deny Senator!

[ZL-1]

The new Cadillac Alpha should be the car Cadillac pushes to the world, and it should be offered in a 4, 6, 8 cyl and diesel configurations, that way the world markets can adjust to their local conditions automatically.

although (perhaps) the ATS-V could do better globally with a high-tech TT V6... But if it uses a Corvette engine it surely will be a beast!

[smk4565]

Japan is pretty closed off, so where outside of the U.S. is Cadillac going to get sales? All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year, that gives them economies of scale and ability to spend a lot of R&D dollars per model line. Cadillac will have a hard time keeping up if they only have American sales and no where else to generate revenue.

All three German luxury brands sell over 1 million units a year by being utter fleet whores outside of the U.S. and selling stripped down models with 180hp 4-cylinder engines.... is that what you want Cadillac to do?

Yet transaction prices on the German cars are still higher than what Cadillac gets. In China, the Cadillac SLS has a base price 10,000 RMB lower than a C260. Although the SLS can be optioned up higher than the C-class goes, it is still under E-class pricing, and the E300 is the top end E-class there. The Chinese E-class is pretty well stocked with equipment, if Cadillac had the same feature/content list I think they would be in good shape. And yes, Cadillac should put diesel and turbo 4's in cars for countries with high traffic congestion, high gas prices or CO2 taxes. Especially in ATS and CTS sized cars, and have more powerful engines as an option.

Cadillac has to model what the Germans are doing because they need volume. The other option is to go up in price, but and go high price/low volume, but I don't think they can get the high prices. I don't see people paying $60,000 for a V6 CTS or $90,000 for an XTS. And Cadillac doesn't have an SLS AMG or Audi R8 type of specialty car they can charge $190k for.

Edited April 11, 2011 by smk4565

[smk4565]

To extend my point, Forbes just published a list of auto brands that Americans think are the best. The top brands were (in order):

Porsche, Lexus, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Acura, Audi, Volkswagen

5 out of 8 German, that is what the people aspire to own. That type of car works. Cadillac needs to build similar, size, price, fuel efficiency, and reliability as the Germans. But with Art & Science style and more comfortable interiors. The Germans, and Lexus/Acura for that matter aren't strong in design or creativity, Cadillac can beat them there.

[Croc]

No way. Those brands you listed? The one thing they all have in common are ridiculously luxurious interiors with very rich materials (until very recently with VW, of course). Cadillac needs to up their game here, and by a lot.

[smk4565]

No way. Those brands you listed? The one thing they all have in common are ridiculously luxurious interiors with very rich materials (until very recently with VW, of course). Cadillac needs to up their game here, and by a lot.

Cadillac does need to up their game in interiors, and in engineering, but they have the ability to do that. And I think Cadillac can make more dramatic looking or visually appealing cars than the Germans. Jaguar and Aston Martin have that ability to make beautiful cars, that aren't in your face offensive, they are pretty yet elegant, I think Cadillac can do that also.

VW took the Jetta downmarket, but the new Toureg is $60k, and the interior in that is better than the Escalade and blows away the SRX. It depends on what end of the VW spectrum you look at. Yet people seem to have a high opinion of VW, perhaps because it is German or is usually priced above a Toyota or Ford or Chevy. Overall I think VW is a bit overrated, but according to Forbes and JD power they rate very high on appeal.

[regfootball]

To extend my point, Forbes just published a list of auto brands that Americans think are the best. The top brands were (in order):

Porsche, Lexus, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Acura, Audi, Volkswagen

5 out of 8 German, that is what the people aspire to own. That type of car works. Cadillac needs to build similar, size, price, fuel efficiency, and reliability as the Germans. But with Art & Science style and more comfortable interiors. The Germans, and Lexus/Acura for that matter aren't strong in design or creativity, Cadillac can beat them there.

because uptight well to do white folks are the ones who actually complete surveys?

VW's image will be running on fumes once they get a lot of the new Jettas and 012 Passats out there. That ought to kill their best brand image for awhile once people experience the cheap interiors.

[balthazar]

How anyone would vote VW as a "best" brand with the reliability/quality issues VW has long been known for, is beyond me.

Then again, these voters probably had land rover right near the top 10 too...

[Croc]

How anyone would vote VW as a "best" brand with the reliability/quality issues VW has long been known for, is beyond me.

Then again, these voters probably had land rover right near the top 10 too...

Because VW makes an excellent impression for the first 2-3 years.

[ocnblu]

The Cadillac brand should not be compromised to fit the European market. It should and must remain an American brand, and all that entails. If Europeans want to buy a Cadillac, let them, but the brand must not bend like a willow in an effort to fit in. That will, and has been so far, Cadillac's ruination in Europe.

European brands don't compromise for us and they do well enough here. For Cadillac, chasing sales is poison. It is anathema to exclusivity, which Cadillac should aspire to above all else. And that goes for any market the Cadillac brand is sold in.

[balthazar]

How anyone would vote VW as a "best" brand with the reliability/quality issues VW has long been known for, is beyond me.

Then again, these voters probably had land rover right near the top 10 too...

Because VW makes an excellent impression for the first 2-3 years.

Unless they all get scrapped after 3 years- reliability woes are hardly secret information. In my observations, VW is unable to escape the bad reliability albatross.

[Drew Dowdell]

To extend my point, Forbes just published a list of auto brands that Americans think are the best. The top brands were (in order):

Porsche, Lexus, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Acura, Audi, Volkswagen

5 out of 8 German, that is what the people aspire to own. That type of car works. Cadillac needs to build similar, size, price, fuel efficiency, and reliability as the Germans. But with Art & Science style and more comfortable interiors. The Germans, and Lexus/Acura for that matter aren't strong in design or creativity, Cadillac can beat them there.

7 out of 8 1-series owners think their car is FWD and comes with a V6 engine.

Cadillac used to build a vehicle with German reliability and maintenance costs; it was called the 1997 Cadillac Catera. I don't suggest they revert to that level.

How anyone would vote VW as a "best" brand with the reliability/quality issues VW has long been known for, is beyond me.

Then again, these voters probably had land rover right near the top 10 too...

Because VW makes an excellent impression for the first 2-3 years.

After that their lease is up and VW doesn't bother to survey the second owners.

[Croc]

How anyone would vote VW as a "best" brand with the reliability/quality issues VW has long been known for, is beyond me.

Then again, these voters probably had land rover right near the top 10 too...

Because VW makes an excellent impression for the first 2-3 years.

After that their lease is up and VW doesn't bother to survey the second owners.

Yes; that was my implication.

[Croc]

The Cadillac brand should not be compromised to fit the European market. It should and must remain an American brand, and all that entails. If Europeans want to buy a Cadillac, let them, but the brand must not bend like a willow in an effort to fit in. That will, and has been so far, Cadillac's ruination in Europe.

European brands don't compromise for us and they do well enough here. For Cadillac, chasing sales is poison. It is anathema to exclusivity, which Cadillac should aspire to above all else. And that goes for any market the Cadillac brand is sold in.

I generally agree with you here, only (possibly) differing in that I want Cadillac to have traditional European driving characteristics (the direction in which Cadillac has been moving) instead of traditional American driving characteristics (softer, floatier) because that isn't even selling well domestically.