Third Time's The Charm? Cadillac Returns To Europe

[Croc]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

GM did.

See page one.

Then let them finish the car and really see what it is in final form. To prejudge something you have not driven let alone seen is a little short sighted. A informed opionion good or bad is the only one that really counts.

I may write this car off too but I will wait till we know a lot more about it.

Meh, that's a tired old refrain at this point. As I said before, we already know enough about the XTS to know it doesn't belong in the european market.

+1

I'm not buying this bull$h! of "wait just one more product cycle before we pull our heads out of our asses, we promise!!" Been hearing that for 15 years. Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and the simple fact that this vehicle is even coming to market is enough to tell me everything I need to know. The LaCrosse is a fantastic Buick, and the XTS would be too. As a Cadillac? No. As a European Cadillac? f@#k no.

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?

What's your point? They're already established brands. They aren't coming in as an underdog with something to prove, taking on a segment that thrives on perceptions of prestige and desirability. They haven't been a joke twice before. Seriously, you're pissing Kool Aid all over this thread.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Croc

[pow]

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?

Those Audis are world-class vehicles far more advanced than any glorified 9-5 or LaCrosse. Audi may offer a FWD A6, but it's aluminum intensive, drives damn well in spite of its drive wheels, and shares nothing with a cheaper VW.

Edited March 23, 2011 by pow

[Drew Dowdell]

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?

Those Audis are world-class vehicles far more advanced than any glorified 9-5 or LaCrosse. Audi may offer a FWD A6, but it's aluminum intensive, drives damn well in spite of its drive wheels, and shares nothing with a cheaper VW.

The A6 I had 8 months ago was nothing special at all. Even the current Lacrosse could compete with a typically equipped A6 in actual highway performance and the Lacrosse gives up nothing to the A6 in terms of interior comfort.

Yet again I'm accused of Kool-Aid pissing, but how many here can actually say they've spend time in a typical car in this class in Germany on the AutoBahn.... not the A6 that is an S6 in all but engine.... but the much more typical silver Chevrolet Impala equivalent they actually drive over there.

Many of you seem to have this really glorified idea of what the automotive experience in the EU is. It is NOT all loaded 5-series/A6/E-classes with V8s. It is much more frequently 2 liter diesels, cloth seats, and in the case of my A6, no CD player.

We don't know XTS pricing in the U.S. much less the EU... but consider this. The lowest price A6 that isn't a 2.0 diesel with 6-speed is 42,050€.... or about $60,000.

That gets you a FWD, 200hp V6 gasser with such amenities as:

16" wheels

Your choice of Gray or Black cloth interior

No Bluetooth

No CD

No Sat Radio

No USB

No Sunroof

Now, I'm not saying the Germans will buy an XTS, because they are rather stubborn about brands.... but... and I'm going out on a limb here, Cadillac could easily provide a car with more amenities, more power, and more comfort for $60,000.... seeing as they already do that with the Lacrosse.

Let's compare price with something more akin to what the XTS would ship with:

Audi A6, 3.0 V6 Quattro 295hp

18" Wheels

Basic leather interior

Acoustic blocking glass (a 1900€ option)

Adaptive headlights

We'll leave off the sunroof

Wood trim interior (a 470€ option)

Automatic multi-zone climate control (a 650€ option)

Heated and cooled seats

Bluetooth

USB

and you come out to a total of 67,090€ or $94,751, you think Cadillac cannot provide an AWD XTS for less than that?

Now... again, the Germans still won't buy the Cadillac equally equipped, and here is where I illustrate that: The CTS 3.6 AWD and all of that equipment; currently priced at 55,000€

The Germans are known for being frugal.... but their love of home team brands trumps that.

[ocnblu]

I still think Cadillac should be kept out of Europe completely. Except as a gray market rarity.

[Drew Dowdell]

What's your point? They're already established brands. They aren't coming in as an underdog with something to prove, taking on a segment that thrives on perceptions of prestige and desirability. They haven't been a joke twice before. Seriously, you're pissing Kool Aid all over this thread.

The Citroen C6 is a cushy 235hp V6 FWD car that handles like a whale (because that's it's heritage) that bases where the 300hp CTS AWD 3.6 does.

[smk4565]

I think Cadillac needs a halo car along with the ATS and CTS to get noticed in Europe. To challenge the S-class takes more money and know-how than GM has, so I would bypass that, and do some sort of luxury-sports GT car. Then at least it is the Jaguar XK, Ferarri California, Maserati Gran Turismo that you are going against, all great cars but without the long standing reputation of an S-class. If Cadillac can make a 400 hp, 40 mpg luxury sports coupe with jaw dropping styling, that may be enough of an attention getter. And it is possible, Porsche is about to drop a 700 hp car that gets 70 mpg, so 400 hp/40 mpg is doable.

[William Maley]

I still think Cadillac should be kept out of Europe completely. Except as a gray market rarity.

Agreed.

The only way Cadillac should go into Europe is with the understanding they will not sell as many vehicles as the main office is expecting. Also, where are diesel engines?

[balthazar]

Oldsmoboi ~ >>"The A6 I had 8 months ago was nothing special at all."<<

This was my experience a few years ago- I had read all the WoRlD cLaSs AuDi gush here a hundred times, then I had the opportunity to spend some hours with an A4- where did all the hype go ???? Nothing special whatsoever. Dated, hard interior, and it was orange & black.

>>"Many of you seem to have this really glorified idea of what the automotive experience in the EU is. It is NOT all loaded 5-series/A6/E-classes with V8s. It is much more frequently 2 liter diesels, cloth seats, and in the case of my A6, no CD player."<<

You're crushing dreams here, Olds. Everyone thin, attractive and 35 wears leather knuckle-hole driving gloves, has greased hair, and is a real driving enthusiast in either an M BMW, an AMG mercedees or a quatro audi- all us fat slobs over here KNOW this is TRUTH. All the audi/mercedeees/BMW taxicabs, fleet vehicles, commercial sedans, garbage trucks & moving vans have advanced full-invisibility technology ('RealitiShield') so none of the above will get their reps soiled because none of those brands have figured out how to dump the slop into another branded bucket.

[hyperv6]

I still think Cadillac should be kept out of Europe completely. Except as a gray market rarity.

At times I wonder if this would be best too.

I also wonder how well GM markets to where the pockets of American car lovers are. Norway Sweeden and Finland are big time American car lovers. I wonder if they really focus in these areas. We ship container after container of American car parts new and old there. We have one shop in Norway that has done over a million dollars in buisness with us last year just on American performance parts.

Germany is going to be a tough sell no matter what they send over there. I think if the car is right they could do ok in GB they are open minded and really have no home car industry to support anymore. That is unless they consider the Mini still British and not German owned. France another tough sell.

I sometimes wonder if it is better to learn how to beat Benz and BMW here before you spit on their turf.

Edited March 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

GM did.

See page one.

Then let them finish the car and really see what it is in final form. To prejudge something you have not driven let alone seen is a little short sighted. A informed opionion good or bad is the only one that really counts.

I may write this car off too but I will wait till we know a lot more about it.

Meh, that's a tired old refrain at this point. As I said before, we already know enough about the XTS to know it doesn't belong in the european market.

Ok what will the 0-60 times be? How short will it stop? What kind of lap time on the Green Hell will it have? You may be right but until we know the important real performance numbers we really know nothing. An informed opinion is the only one that really counts.

To be honest even the ATS will have a difficult time selling over there. GM is going to have to get it spot on and do one hell of a marketing program to make any headway.

I feel if they can just show a profit even on a small volume that is all the more we can expect short term. China is where Cadillac will see the most growth. I hope the same will be seen in America.

[Drew Dowdell]

The point that I've been trying to make and has apparently been lost is this: To the Europeans, the country of origin of the badge is far more important than which wheels drive the car, Ford being the notable exception to that rule only because they have a strong R&D and manufacturing base there.

[ocnblu]

The Cadillac brand should not be compromised in order to try to appeal to European tastes. That would totally turn off the few people over there who actually respect our finest US brand and make things worse.

Cadillac should have a clear purpose and NOT veer from that, no matter the market. If few TRUE Cadillacs sell in Europe, then that is the way it must be. Compromising the brand is a mistake. European people would certainly see what GM is doing and shut Cadillac out. The BLS is a perfect example of this wrong-headed attempt at European assimilation. It will not work with Cadillac, and the brand is better for it.

Edited March 24, 2011 by ocnblu

[Croc]

The point that I've been trying to make and has apparently been lost is this: To the Europeans, the country of origin of the badge is far more important than which wheels drive the car, Ford being the notable exception to that rule only because they have a strong R&D and manufacturing base there.

Exactly, which is why nothing but an all-out, guns-blazing attempt would have even a remote possibility of resonating. Some lame half-hearted attempt with a rebadged flagship Buick has no business being brought to term--abort that &#036;h&#33;.

[ocnblu]

I personally fear the XTS. If it eventually becomes the best-selling Cadillac car, will that spell doom for this wonderful, if uneven return to RWD excellence at Cadillac? Ugh, perish the thought.

[ZL-1]

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?

Bringing the C6 into this discussion shows that you, sir, have an immensely funny sense of humour

[Drew Dowdell]

The point that I've been trying to make and has apparently been lost is this: To the Europeans, the country of origin of the badge is far more important than which wheels drive the car, Ford being the notable exception to that rule only because they have a strong R&D and manufacturing base there.

Exactly, which is why nothing but an all-out, guns-blazing attempt would have even a remote possibility of resonating. Some lame half-hearted attempt with a rebadged flagship Buick has no business being brought to term--abort that &#036;h&#33;.

waste of money.

[z28luvr01]

I agree with the sentiment that Caddy needs to put its best foot forward if it has any chance of succeeding in Europe. I also agree that, considering European tastes, the XTS is NOT putting Caddy's best foot forward. My approach would be to send the ATS and CTS first, with small displacement engines and diesels available AT LAUNCH. I'd even argue to leave the V series versions home for the time being. If the ATS and CTS take off, then release the Vs and the XTS.

[ZL-1]

I personally fear the XTS. If it eventually becomes the best-selling Cadillac car, will that spell doom for this wonderful, if uneven return to RWD excellence at Cadillac? Ugh, perish the thought.

Perish the thought indeed... If it sells well above where GM insteds to push Buick into in terms of average transaction prices, then no problem. If it starts blocking the way for Buick to go upwards a bit, then it's a 'here we go again' scenario. Rememeber that Buick survived in the US because of how well it does in China, and Cadillac's ovreseas sales aren't, to my knowledge, exactly stellar.

[balthazar]

Some lame half-hearted attempt with a rebadged flagship Buick has no business being brought to term...

And at first I thought you were serious.

[pow]

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?

Those Audis are world-class vehicles far more advanced than any glorified 9-5 or LaCrosse. Audi may offer a FWD A6, but it's aluminum intensive, drives damn well in spite of its drive wheels, and shares nothing with a cheaper VW.

The A6 I had 8 months ago was nothing special at all. Even the current Lacrosse could compete with a typically equipped A6 in actual highway performance and the Lacrosse gives up nothing to the A6 in terms of interior comfort.

Yet again I'm accused of Kool-Aid pissing, but how many here can actually say they've spend time in a typical car in this class in Germany on the AutoBahn.... not the A6 that is an S6 in all but engine.... but the much more typical silver Chevrolet Impala equivalent they actually drive over there.

Many of you seem to have this really glorified idea of what the automotive experience in the EU is. It is NOT all loaded 5-series/A6/E-classes with V8s. It is much more frequently 2 liter diesels, cloth seats, and in the case of my A6, no CD player.

We don't know XTS pricing in the U.S. much less the EU... but consider this. The lowest price A6 that isn't a 2.0 diesel with 6-speed is 42,050€.... or about $60,000.

That gets you a FWD, 200hp V6 gasser with such amenities as:

16" wheels

Your choice of Gray or Black cloth interior

No Bluetooth

No CD

No Sat Radio

No USB

No Sunroof

Now, I'm not saying the Germans will buy an XTS, because they are rather stubborn about brands.... but... and I'm going out on a limb here, Cadillac could easily provide a car with more amenities, more power, and more comfort for $60,000.... seeing as they already do that with the Lacrosse.

Let's compare price with something more akin to what the XTS would ship with:

Audi A6, 3.0 V6 Quattro 295hp

18" Wheels

Basic leather interior

Acoustic blocking glass (a 1900€ option)

Adaptive headlights

We'll leave off the sunroof

Wood trim interior (a 470€ option)

Automatic multi-zone climate control (a 650€ option)

Heated and cooled seats

Bluetooth

USB

and you come out to a total of 67,090€ or $94,751, you think Cadillac cannot provide an AWD XTS for less than that?

Now... again, the Germans still won't buy the Cadillac equally equipped, and here is where I illustrate that: The CTS 3.6 AWD and all of that equipment; currently priced at 55,000€

The Germans are known for being frugal.... but their love of home team brands trumps that.

I'd take a base A6 with cloth seats and four-cylinder diesel over a fully-loaded Impala any day. Equating leather, wood, and engine displacement with luxury is a very American perspective. There's more to an E-segment "executive saloon" than its level of specification; in this segment, you expect a certain level of engineering and build quality beyond that of a lesser car. The prevalence of such cars, or the fact that many are destined to humdrum duties like taxi or fleet use (most luxury cars in Europe are company cars that come with a management position), doesn't discount the fact these vehicles are highly respected and convey some degree of prestige. A Golf would be the German Impala, not a 40,000€ A6 that few Europeans can afford.

Infiniti and Cadillac have already tried to "provide [cars] with more amenities, more power, and more comfort" with US-style models that come standard with a high level of specification, but that's not how the European market works. Most consumers have skipped the temptation of free power seats and what have you because they don't want to be saddled with a flaky, unknown brand with no commitment to the European market that has poor residuals and a tiny dealership network. And for company car buyers, the running costs of, say, a CTS or M37 in the UK just don't make sense compared to an A6 2.0TDI: road tax is more than 3 times higher, company car tax is at 35% instead of 20%, and it's at the highest insurance band. Germans aren't stubborn about brands; they're just not stupid.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not sure if you realize that you are agreeing with me....

My point is that very few of the A6es in the EU are equipped like people on here think they are. Cadillac is making a mistake by not offering a diesel in the CTS as a low road base model.

However, when you start getting into Audi's equipped like SMK and Croc seem to think is prevalent in the EU (~300hp V6, AWD, 19speed automatic, high end leather, every electronic gizmo ever), all of those taxes even out with Cadillac, yet the price of the Audi/MB/BMW skyrockets.

It is Cadillac's fault for not offering stripped down models and 2 liter diesels. They could at least undercut the competition if they did. They are undercutting Audi on a feature for feature comparison, but only on cars with equipment that few in the EU buy anyway.

While I wouldn't take an Impala LTZ over an A6 FWD 2.0 TDI, I would certainly take a nicely equipped Lacrosse with a Euro tune to it's suspension. The difference in NHV alone would be worth it.

[67impss]

"While I wouldn't take an Impala LTZ over an A6 FWD 2.0 TDI, I would certainly take a nicely equipped Lacrosse with a Euro tune to it's suspension. The difference in NHV alone would be worth it."

NHV? been seeing this a lot here and Googled but to no avail mite you enlighten me

[Drew Dowdell]

NHV = Noise, Harshness, Vibration

[Robert Hall]

"While I wouldn't take an Impala LTZ over an A6 FWD 2.0 TDI, I would certainly take a nicely equipped Lacrosse with a Euro tune to it's suspension. The difference in NHV alone would be worth it."

NHV? been seeing this a lot here and Googled but to no avail mite you enlighten me

NVH..noise, vibration, harshness.

[Croc]

Of course Cadillac should offer diesels. Of course they should offer competitive content levels in line with the expectations of the EU market. But they should also offer a serious lineup free from compromises. If they have to take the Cruze and flip the script then so be it if that's what it takes to ensure high quality control in EU.

Cadillac needs to:

1) Know the market and offer product that reflects market preferences in EU,

2) Offer a complete, and completely competitive lineup in EU,

3) Come out of the gate with strong quality control and NO RECALLS to establish themselves as a credible alternative to the homegrown marques, and

4) Do all of the above to demonstrate a long-term commitment to the EU market. Coming and going so many times does not allay concerns over serviceability and warranties. If they go again, it needs to be for the long haul.

[Drew Dowdell]

You realize what you're advocating is a decontenting of the Cadillac vehicles?

[pow]

You realize what you're advocating is a decontenting of the Cadillac vehicles?

That's one of the few competitive advantages that US or Japanese cars have in Europe: a higher level of specification standard on every model.

What Cadillac needs to be taken seriously by European customers, IMO, is lower running costs and higher residuals. If they figure out a way to make an ATS emit 110 g/km or less (Tax Band B and 13% company car tax) and be in insurance group 28 or less, then mainstream buyers will at least consider one as a realistic option.

The current CTS gets 25.4 mpg (imperial) combined and 264 g/km. They need an ATS 2.0d Eco or something that gets 68.9 mpg combined and 109 g/km.

[Croc]

You realize what you're advocating is a decontenting of the Cadillac vehicles?

No, I'm not necessarily advocating for that. If Cadillac currently offers better value/money than the competition, then that's a huge competitive advantage. However, if the engines offered are mismatched with local preferences and consume too much fuel or the wrong kind of fuel, or produce too many emissions, then it's moot regardless. Of course certain option packages/trim levels should be adjusted if different options are more popular in different combinations, but to assert that localization automatically means marked decontenting, then no, that's ridiculous.

As I've always asserted, especially in previous threads, sales numbers are less important than profit margins in the luxury goods market. If Cadillacs are only going to compete with higher-end M-Bs and BMWs that's fine by me. Just because M-B makes a taxi doesn't mean I think Cadillac should too...because M-B doesn't compete with Chevrolet or Ford in the US, so we don't need to compete that way over in EU. M-B is a luxury market player in the US. Cadillac is a luxury marque, exclusively, and it should compete as such over in EU. I don't see why you're having so much trouble understanding my point.

[Drew Dowdell]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

[Croc]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Because so many people include AUDI when cross-shopping such luxury sedan "driver's cars" as the BMW 3er, 5er or 7er or the M-B C-Class, E-Class or S-Class.

I give up. Enjoy your XTS kool aid.

[pow]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

[ZL-1]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

Let me add to that, pow, that from what I've read so far the new A6 with FWD handles very well, and with AWD it handles almost (if not as well as) as well as the BMW benchmark.

I would not expect the XTS, even with XWD, to be like that; I'd expect its character to be way more soft.

[67impss]

Thanx for the NVH clue guys

[Drew Dowdell]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Because so many people include AUDI when cross-shopping such luxury sedan "driver's cars" as the BMW 3er, 5er or 7er or the M-B C-Class, E-Class or S-Class.

I give up. Enjoy your XTS kool aid.

My XTS kool aid is that I think it won't sell AND neither will the ATS nor CTS?

What I'm saying is that even a Lacrosse can be at least 98% as athletic as a base A6. I'm thinking a Cadillac with Magnaride can do better.

You don't seem to get that I don't think Cadillac should bother with the Europeans at all. It is a waste of money. Cadillac should concentrate on emerging markets where they don't think they invented the automobile and have never been surpassed since.

[Croc]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Because so many people include AUDI when cross-shopping such luxury sedan "driver's cars" as the BMW 3er, 5er or 7er or the M-B C-Class, E-Class or S-Class.

I give up. Enjoy your XTS kool aid.

My XTS kool aid is that I think it won't sell AND neither will the ATS nor CTS?

What I'm saying is that even a Lacrosse can be at least 98% as athletic as a base A6. I'm thinking a Cadillac with Magnaride can do better.

You don't seem to get that I don't think Cadillac should bother with the Europeans at all. It is a waste of money. Cadillac should concentrate on emerging markets where they don't think they invented the automobile and have never been surpassed since.

No, I don't get that at all from your previous posts, since you've been doggedly responding to me throughout 5 pages of this thread although MY argument has always been that the time isn't right and it's a bad idea. So if we're in agreement, and I'm somehow missing something, why 5 pages of back-and-forth and trying to legitimize the XTS' existence by bringing up Citroen and AUDI comparisons?

Citroen isn't for sale on these shores, so I cannot imagine what other point you'd be trying to make with your posts.

[Drew Dowdell]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

Well that's more a function of the diesel engine than the rest of the car. That diesel in the Audi would produce the same results.

I discount the base Audi A6 because I've driven it for a week around Germany. It was not something to write home about.... as you see, I didn't right a review. The 3-series is a substantially better car driving wise.

Yet the A6 sells.

[Drew Dowdell]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Because so many people include AUDI when cross-shopping such luxury sedan "driver's cars" as the BMW 3er, 5er or 7er or the M-B C-Class, E-Class or S-Class.

I give up. Enjoy your XTS kool aid.

My XTS kool aid is that I think it won't sell AND neither will the ATS nor CTS?

What I'm saying is that even a Lacrosse can be at least 98% as athletic as a base A6. I'm thinking a Cadillac with Magnaride can do better.

You don't seem to get that I don't think Cadillac should bother with the Europeans at all. It is a waste of money. Cadillac should concentrate on emerging markets where they don't think they invented the automobile and have never been surpassed since.

No, I don't get that at all from your previous posts, since you've been doggedly responding to me throughout 5 pages of this thread although MY argument has always been that the time isn't right and it's a bad idea. So if we're in agreement, and I'm somehow missing something, why 5 pages of back-and-forth and trying to legitimize the XTS' existence by bringing up Citroen and AUDI comparisons?

Citroen isn't for sale on these shores, so I cannot imagine what other point you'd be trying to make with your posts.

You don't think me saying Cadillac could fuel it with bratwurst and the Germans still won't buy it wasn't clear enough? The drive wheels of the XTS ... or CTS... or ATS... matter little in how well those vehicles will do in the EU. The biggest hindrance to sales is the country of origin of the badge. That is born out by the fact that the FWD Citroen and A6 still sell over there for a lot more money than the RWD CTS.

[ZL-1]

where they don't think they invented the automobile

Weren't Mr. Daimler and Mr. Benz both German and therefore European?

Edited March 26, 2011 by ZL-1

[Robert Hall]

The XTS is not for Europe..it's for the traditional older buyers that the DTS was sold to..it gives Cadillac a competitor for the MKS and ES. Nothing competitive w/ the big league European models. That's all.

[SAmadei]

You don't seem to get that I don't think Cadillac should bother with the Europeans at all. It is a waste of money. Cadillac should concentrate on emerging markets where they don't think they invented the automobile and have never been surpassed since.

Emerging markets? China has emerged... it ain't going to get much bigger with its teething problems... and I thought Cadillac was already there. I think its too early to sell Cadillacs in India, except as a niche. Emerging markets are for inexpensive brands... but could Chevy compete with the Nano? Where else is there a truly emerging market for Cadillac to go to?

Speaking of niche... this is how I feel Cadillac's presence in Europe should be. Sell the best of the best (CTS-V, ZTS, etc.) and in limited numbers. There are people in Europe who like things imported from Detroit. Make it rare and desirable and play that angle to grow the business. Mercedes didn't start here selling garbage trucks and microcars. Studebaker gave Mercedes a hand up and marketed them as quality over quantity.

[pow]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

Well that's more a function of the diesel engine than the rest of the car. That diesel in the Audi would produce the same results.

I discount the base Audi A6 because I've driven it for a week around Germany. It was not something to write home about.... as you see, I didn't right a review. The 3-series is a substantially better car driving wise.

Yet the A6 sells.

Yes, but where else would GM find a small diesel for the XTS? Good luck trying to buy one from Audi. It's going to be the 9-5's TiD.

The base A6 you drove has been around since 2004. The new one is a world-class (sorry) E-segment sedan.

Every review of the 9-5 I've seen says it's the best driving Epsilon II out there, yet every review also states that it lags behind the 5-series and A6 in driving dynamics.

[pow]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Because so many people include AUDI when cross-shopping such luxury sedan "driver's cars" as the BMW 3er, 5er or 7er or the M-B C-Class, E-Class or S-Class.

I give up. Enjoy your XTS kool aid.

My XTS kool aid is that I think it won't sell AND neither will the ATS nor CTS?

What I'm saying is that even a Lacrosse can be at least 98% as athletic as a base A6. I'm thinking a Cadillac with Magnaride can do better.

You don't seem to get that I don't think Cadillac should bother with the Europeans at all. It is a waste of money. Cadillac should concentrate on emerging markets where they don't think they invented the automobile and have never been surpassed since.

No, I don't get that at all from your previous posts, since you've been doggedly responding to me throughout 5 pages of this thread although MY argument has always been that the time isn't right and it's a bad idea. So if we're in agreement, and I'm somehow missing something, why 5 pages of back-and-forth and trying to legitimize the XTS' existence by bringing up Citroen and AUDI comparisons?

Citroen isn't for sale on these shores, so I cannot imagine what other point you'd be trying to make with your posts.

You don't think me saying Cadillac could fuel it with bratwurst and the Germans still won't buy it wasn't clear enough? The drive wheels of the XTS ... or CTS... or ATS... matter little in how well those vehicles will do in the EU. The biggest hindrance to sales is the country of origin of the badge. That is born out by the fact that the FWD Citroen and A6 still sell over there for a lot more money than the RWD CTS.

Again, you're overlooking the fact that Cadillac has ZERO brand reputation, no credibility, poor network of dealers, poor residuals, and ridiculous running costs that don't make sense to the average non-celebrity executive car driver. Ford does fine even with a US badge because it has all of that. You're conflating "country of origin of the badge" with the brand itself.

[pow]

If Cadillac has the RIGHT cars for the EU market, and they addressed all of those problems, I argue Europeans WILL buy it regardless of the "country of origin of the badge." But it takes time to build dealer networks, trust, etc. And I argue that GM doesn't have the money to successfully do that in Europe. Stick with China, which is still a growing market.

[A Horse With No Name]

where they don't think they invented the automobile

Weren't Mr. Daimler and Mr. Benz both German and therefore European?

My thoughts exactly.

[Drew Dowdell]

Again, you're overlooking the fact that Cadillac has ZERO brand reputation, no credibility, poor network of dealers, poor residuals, and ridiculous running costs that don't make sense to the average non-celebrity executive car driver. Ford does fine even with a US badge because it has all of that. You're conflating "country of origin of the badge" with the brand itself.

Think so? How well does Dodge, Chrysler or Chevrolet do there? The Opel Antara wasn't a huge smash it in the EU, but compared to the Chevrolet Captiva, it might as well be a Toyota Camry. The only thing Dodge managed to sell was Caravans.

Fiat has the right idea to rebadge Chryslers as Lancias.

Edit: As I mentioned before, Ford is the exception to that rule because they've had a strong R&D and production presence in the EU for many decades. Their Fords are (rightfully so IMO) considered European cars because they have been design by and for Europeans.

Opel, despite GM ownership since WWII, has that same deference directed towards it.

[pow]

Again, you're overlooking the fact that Cadillac has ZERO brand reputation, no credibility, poor network of dealers, poor residuals, and ridiculous running costs that don't make sense to the average non-celebrity executive car driver. Ford does fine even with a US badge because it has all of that. You're conflating "country of origin of the badge" with the brand itself.

Think so? How well does Dodge, Chrysler or Chevrolet do there? The Opel Antara wasn't a huge smash it in the EU, but compared to the Chevrolet Captiva, it might as well be a Toyota Camry. The only thing Dodge managed to sell was Caravans.

Fiat has the right idea to rebadge Chryslers as Lancias.

Edit: As I mentioned before, Ford is the exception to that rule because they've had a strong R&D and production presence in the EU for many decades. Their Fords are (rightfully so IMO) considered European cars because they have been design by and for Europeans.

Opel, despite GM ownership since WWII, has that same deference directed towards it.

Ummmmmmmmm... the Chevrolet Captiva outsold the Opel Antara in Europe.

2010 Antara sales: 10,976

2010 Captiva sales: 31,543

Again, more proof that it's not the "country of origin of the badge" but rather that vehicle's competitiveness in the marketplace coupled with the reputation of the company selling it. Chevrolet Europe (subsidiary of GM Korea) has 2,000+ dealers. If Cadillac wants to penetrate the EU market, then they will have to commit to a strong presence in Europe like Ford did. There are no shortcuts, and you can't just blame the customer for allegedly hating on US products.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/intl/en/company_chev/sales_and_production_highlights.brand_chevrolet.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmeurope.info%2FMOPIDB%2Fdownload.htm%3F03C2211F5E0001D6D4D0b4a9E1E3b0a2b2A0E0C3D2C5c3D2Cc08611Dc02F4cD04C0A2a6D4bC1B082111EbIGdhfCj&rct=j&q=gm%20europe%202010%20sales%20figures&ei=xkCOTYbdKIuksQPu9LGRCQ&usg=AFQjCNE0jYJjkl4F-FwTTh1iBNMk_DaMCQ&cad=rja

The Captiva and Antara are different vehicles, by the way -- Captiva seats 7 while Antara only seats 5.

And Chrysler outsells Lancia everywhere in Europe outside Italy. Fiat just wanted to steal this US brand's success for their own failing brand.

Edited March 26, 2011 by pow

[smk4565]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Any powertrain in the proposed XTS will fail in Europe. The car is huge for one, look at how poorly the Seville did around year 2000 when they sent that to Europe. Secondly Europeans don't flock to soft riding cars with seats you sink into, that is why Lexus can't break in too well either, even with all their hybrids. Lastly is build quality, the materials and fit and finish in an Audi is better than what Cadillac has. So unless the XTS is a vast improvement over the CTS in interior fit and finish, Cadillac could come up short there also.

And Audi is the 3rd place German luxury brand, they are not the target. Even if Cadillac was going after boutique brands like Jaguar or Maserati, at least there would be profit potential because of high prices.

[smk4565]

I think Cadillac to really survive needs some European sales. They are already behind Mercedes and Audi in China, Japan is a market that few imported cars get into. So there is Russia and parts of South America that Cadillac can try to grow in, but there isn't a high population of people that can afford Cadillacs in those countries. The U.S. market alone isn't enough for Cadillac, they have to branch out.

Edited March 26, 2011 by smk4565

[dwightlooi]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

A longitudinal engine in a FWD car (ala Audi and Subaru) is actually more a liability than an advantage. It pushes the weight balance further forward than a transverse layout. In Audi's case they do it for the convenience of integrating AWD because the transfer case because integral and inline with the output shaft of the tranny.

The Epsilon is a fine enough platform. The problem GM has is the groany, unrefined note of the 3.6 DI V6 and the acceptable by below average 6T70 (and 6T75) transmissions. Personally, I don't see the XTS as a flagship, but an ES350 competitor. It should have been a Buick, but the notion of a large, transverse V6 powered, FWD/AWD cruiser or the comfort oriented buyer is not a bad one. But regardless of what the Greenies think, transverse V6 with out without Hybrid assist is not really the gold standard (or the upcoming one in the ear future) for flagship luxury. Caddy deserves and can be well served by a stretched Sigma II with a 7.2 V12 option created by Siameing two 3.6 V6es and a quiet tuned Pushrod small block V8 as the standard power plant. If they want to add a V6 Hybrid to the mix, that's fine, but that will be the niche not the V8 powered car... let's face it, there are not that many Prius drivers upgrading to a Flagship Luxury car (S-class, 7-series, A8 or whatever Caddy has), and those pitiful few will probably buy a Lexus LS600h.

[balthazar]

where they don't think they invented the automobile

Weren't Mr. Daimler and Mr. Benz both German and therefore European?

My thoughts exactly.

Sounds like an entire, multi-page thread, there.