Third Time's The Charm? Cadillac Returns To Europe

[William Maley]

Third Time's The Charm? Cadillac Returns To Europe

William Maley - Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

March 22, 2011

Cadillac and Europe haven't been the best of friends. The past two times Cadillac has sold vehicles in Europe, sales have come up short and the lineup offered didn't exactly meet Europe's demands. Now, Cadillac is hoping its third try into the European market is a success.

“The only thing you can do is try, try and try again with Cadillac in Europe,” said GM CEO Dan Akerson.

The CTS will take the lead while the upcoming XTS and ATS will follow afterward. The big question is will Cadillac offer a diesel engine option? Jeff Lux, Opel Vauxhall’s powertrain boss said,

“We can’t do everything all at once.”

No word yet on when Cadillac will make a return.

Source: Autocar

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't bother until there is a diesel available.

[Croc]

Don't bother until a true S-Class competitor is offered. The XTS is bull$h! and won't sell in Europe. Geriatrics take public transit in Europe instead of blowing their pensions on FWD luxobarges.

[Croc]

By the way, what happened to the XLR? Was it really killed because some dumbasses in Detroit couldn't be bothered to update its interior? I can't imagine it didn't turn a nice profit seeing as its MSRP was roughly twice that of the Corvette. Everybody loved it...until they got inside. Cadillac needs a halo vehicle like this. Especially if they want to re-enter Europe.

[G. David Felt]

I loved the XLR and when I could finally buy one, they killed it. Cadillac needs a halo car like this to compete head to head with Mercedes and BMW. I would take an XLR-V over an SL500 any day.

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't bother until a true S-Class competitor is offered. The XTS is bull$h! and won't sell in Europe. Geriatrics take public transit in Europe instead of blowing their pensions on FWD luxobarges.

I think they need to start at the bottom and work their way up. Offer a BMW busting diesel ATS and CTS first. Let them wet their whistle on those.

[Justin Bimmer]

Diesel is needed in Europe and I think Croc should write CEO Akerson with the exact question he just asked about the XLR. Akerson would appreciate it.

[dwightlooi]

Don't bother until there is a diesel available.

Putting out a diesel is not difficult. Putting out a class leading diesel is.

But... just dropping in the Opel 2.0 CDTI Bi-turbo engine is a start. 190hp @ 4000 rpm, 300 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm is "good enough", especially for the ATS.

They do need a Diesel V6 though... something that has been missing since the Opel Signum got axed a few years back.

[dado]

There are couple of problem which i think GM should considered if they want to even be considered as competition to German prmium car class.

First is the image. Image od Cadillac's cars here are something like "big, thirsty, slow, old technology, handling like a brick etc". Cadillac Cts and Ats could help but some good roadster or sports car could make it better. Put Cadillac to race in lemans, DTM etc..

Second..many people here doesn't even know that Cadillac even makes cars..they've only heard about Escalade which falls under description above.

DIESEL engines is a must here. And i'm not talking about one diesel engine.

XTS based on epsilon platform which also underpins opel insignia (car that doesn't compete in luxurie segment). Car magazines, journalist will have a field day about that. Remember Cadillac BLS.

European market is very hard for foreign carmakers in premium department.

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't bother until there is a diesel available.

Putting out a diesel is not difficult. Putting out a class leading diesel is.

But... just dropping in the Opel 2.0 CDTI Bi-turbo engine is a start. 190hp @ 4000 rpm, 300 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm is "good enough", especially for the ATS.

They do need a Diesel V6 though... something that has been missing since the Opel Signum got axed a few years back.

They really needed that 2.9 liter they developed for the '08 CTS but never deployed.

[William Maley]

Don't bother until there is a diesel available.

Putting out a diesel is not difficult. Putting out a class leading diesel is.

But... just dropping in the Opel 2.0 CDTI Bi-turbo engine is a start. 190hp @ 4000 rpm, 300 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm is "good enough", especially for the ATS.

They do need a Diesel V6 though... something that has been missing since the Opel Signum got axed a few years back.

They really needed that 2.9 liter they developed for the '08 CTS but never deployed.

Here's to hoping GM is working on something like the 2.9

[Croc]

Diesel is needed in Europe and I think Croc should write CEO Akerson with the exact question he just asked about the XLR. Akerson would appreciate it.

Find me his address. I'm too lazy to google stalk him, but not so lazy I wouldn't write. I'll do it, I don't care.

[Croc]

Don't bother until a true S-Class competitor is offered. The XTS is bull$h! and won't sell in Europe. Geriatrics take public transit in Europe instead of blowing their pensions on FWD luxobarges.

I think they need to start at the bottom and work their way up. Offer a BMW busting diesel ATS and CTS first. Let them wet their whistle on those.

Um, no. With all due respect, launching Cadillac from the low-end up will make it just that much harder for Europe to take it seriously on the same level of BMW and Mercedes. Cadillacs are jokes to Europeans, and quite frankly they need to put their best foot forward. No SAAB-based BTS. Joke. Stick to the premium. Hell, sell them the Chinese SLS. In fact, sell that $h! HERE. But Cadillac needs to re-launch in Europe with both fists swinging, not with their hands tied behind their figurative back.

[Justin Bimmer]

Diesel is needed in Europe and I think Croc should write CEO Akerson with the exact question he just asked about the XLR. Akerson would appreciate it.

Find me his address. I'm too lazy to google stalk him, but not so lazy I wouldn't write. I'll do it, I don't care.

GM

P.O. Box 33170

Detroit, MI 48232-5170

[balthazar]

If Cadillac wants to be seen in the same light as BMW & mercedees in europe, they had better offer a 4-banger stripper model with an all-vinyl interior, with attractive fleet pricing.

[Camino LS6]

If Cadillac wants to be seen in the same light as BMW & mercedees in europe, they had better offer a 4-banger stripper model with an all-vinyl interior, with attractive fleet pricing.

Classic!

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't bother until a true S-Class competitor is offered. The XTS is bull$h! and won't sell in Europe. Geriatrics take public transit in Europe instead of blowing their pensions on FWD luxobarges.

I think they need to start at the bottom and work their way up. Offer a BMW busting diesel ATS and CTS first. Let them wet their whistle on those.

Um, no. With all due respect, launching Cadillac from the low-end up will make it just that much harder for Europe to take it seriously on the same level of BMW and Mercedes. Cadillacs are jokes to Europeans, and quite frankly they need to put their best foot forward. No SAAB-based BTS. Joke. Stick to the premium. Hell, sell them the Chinese SLS. In fact, sell that $h! HERE. But Cadillac needs to re-launch in Europe with both fists swinging, not with their hands tied behind their figurative back.

Cadillac needs to be seen by the most eyes possible in Europe. That means they need to get the butts of as many mid-level execs who get company cars (a very common occurrence in EU) into seats. Mid-level execs don't get S-classes. They get A3s, A4s, 320di, and C-classes... almost always in diesels. Cadillac selling 12 S-Class level cars in the EU isn't the way to gain visibility there..... though I suppose they could whore them out to the Taxi-cab fleet like Mercedes has.

[Camino LS6]

I'm with Croc on this one - sending a whale like the XTS to Europe seems silly to me.

[Croc]

Don't bother until a true S-Class competitor is offered. The XTS is bull$h! and won't sell in Europe. Geriatrics take public transit in Europe instead of blowing their pensions on FWD luxobarges.

I think they need to start at the bottom and work their way up. Offer a BMW busting diesel ATS and CTS first. Let them wet their whistle on those.

Um, no. With all due respect, launching Cadillac from the low-end up will make it just that much harder for Europe to take it seriously on the same level of BMW and Mercedes. Cadillacs are jokes to Europeans, and quite frankly they need to put their best foot forward. No SAAB-based BTS. Joke. Stick to the premium. Hell, sell them the Chinese SLS. In fact, sell that $h! HERE. But Cadillac needs to re-launch in Europe with both fists swinging, not with their hands tied behind their figurative back.

Cadillac needs to be seen by the most eyes possible in Europe. That means they need to get the butts of as many mid-level execs who get company cars (a very common occurrence in EU) into seats. Mid-level execs don't get S-classes. They get A3s, A4s, 320di, and C-classes... almost always in diesels. Cadillac selling 12 S-Class level cars in the EU isn't the way to gain visibility there..... though I suppose they could whore them out to the Taxi-cab fleet like Mercedes has.

You're misinterpreting. I'm certainly not suggesting Cadillac ONLY launch with S-Class competitors and not anything else--really that's just ridiculous. But they need to launch with one, and a good one at that. They need to launch with a complete lineup that competes with the EU luxury marques............I mean isn't that what they'd like to do, anyway? Can't compete with obvious holes in your lineup.

[hyperv6]

Europe can be taken but it will have to start with the ATS. The last small Caddy in Europe was a rebodied Saab that fooled no one and had FWD. The ATS is the class where the volume is. They need to meet the Euro makers with similar optioned cars and a little better price. Small engines and Diesels are a must.

The economy is hurting in much of Europe to selling a few highend cars will just let them fail again. Taylor the ATS to the Euro market and they will come.

Cadillac will never dominate Europe but it would be nice if they could just compete and make a profit. Benz and BMW dominate so much it would be like Fiat tring to take of Ford and Chevy and trying to dominate here.

Good marketing will also be important. Engineer the car to get some loud mouth like Jeremy Clarkson to love it and people over there will listen. Win the respected critics over there and then market what they say. They have failed to do that in the past. Only the CTSV has ever won much acclaim. Win the acclaim with a normal ATS and the V will will take care of itself.

Edited March 22, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

I think Cadillac will need at least a full generation of both the CTS and ATS selling well in the EU before they should bother with a top end sedan. The XTS can be a filler in the meantime and it will hold the place till the ZTS-whatever comes out.

Remember, the Whitacre Caddy is supposed to bow in 2014.

Edit: Remember, all of the Audis sell with FWD as standard.... this is the first year the A8 is not available in just front drive, even the A7 comes with front track standard.

[Camino LS6]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

[Croc]

I think Cadillac will need at least a full generation of both the CTS and ATS selling well in the EU before they should bother with a top end sedan.

Unless you elaborate on your reasoning, I think your theory on needing a full generation of the two entry sedans is arbitrary and capricious.

Also, I don't care what AUDI is doing. They aren't the goal. You gotta determine your competition and do one better. Cadillac has clearly set the crosshairs on MB and BMW, so that's what they need to focus on and then do one better: RWD high-end vehicles with plenty of performance. FWD doesn't do performance. It can perform well (relatively), but it still ain't performance.

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

This too.

[Drew Dowdell]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

You've driven it already then?

[pow]

GM must be watching Infiniti very closely, as Nissan is introducing that brand to Europe as well. It's hard to imagine a European consumer forgoing a proven brand for something completely unknown and unestablished. Cadillac would at most be a niche player, a car for celebrities with huge disposable incomes who don't care about practicality, running costs, residuals, emissions -- attributes that matter most to company car shopping execs, who make up the majority of luxury car buyers in Western Europe.

It's more profitable and less taxing to grow in China. Sponsoring the CCP is likely easier than finding an F1 team in Europe to sponsor.

Edited March 23, 2011 by pow

[Drew Dowdell]

I think Cadillac will need at least a full generation of both the CTS and ATS selling well in the EU before they should bother with a top end sedan.

Unless you elaborate on your reasoning, I think your theory on needing a full generation of the two entry sedans is arbitrary and capricious.

Also, I don't care what AUDI is doing. They aren't the goal. You gotta determine your competition and do one better. Cadillac has clearly set the crosshairs on MB and BMW, so that's what they need to focus on and then do one better: RWD high-end vehicles with plenty of performance. FWD doesn't do performance. It can perform well (relatively), but it still ain't performance.

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

This too.

Here is my elaborate reasoning: It's a waste of time and money to try and change the minds of the Europeans in the S-class range until the bread and butter C-Class and E-class range is doing better. The Germans and French are a stubborn lot.

[Camino LS6]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

You've driven it already then?

No need.

Simply knowing what it is tells me that it is very wrong for Europe.

[Drew Dowdell]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

You've driven it already then?

No need.

Simply knowing what it is tells me that it is very wrong for Europe.

I hope you'll have your review of the car finished in time to publish it before it's released.

[Camino LS6]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

You've driven it already then?

No need.

Simply knowing what it is tells me that it is very wrong for Europe.

I hope you'll have your review of the car finished in time to publish it before it's released.

C'mon Drew, it's a big, FWD, American sedan - do you honestly think it has a market over there?

[Drew Dowdell]

An XTS is no Audi.

That one needs to be left out of the plan.

You've driven it already then?

No need.

Simply knowing what it is tells me that it is very wrong for Europe.

I hope you'll have your review of the car finished in time to publish it before it's released.

C'mon Drew, it's a big, FWD, American sedan - do you honestly think it has a market over there?

I don't think ANY American car has a market over there... ATS, CTS, DTS, XTS, MKS......wait, got a little carried away there. Cadillac could fuel it with bratwurst and the Germans still won't buy it. Cadillac could fuel it with cheese and the French still won't buy it. Cadillac could fuel it with junk bonds and the Greeks still won't buy it.

They DON'T buy the Camaro. They hardly bought the Chrysler 300 even with a diesel.

If there is any American car you see over there more than others it's wretched Chrysler Minivans, Oldsmobile Silhouettes badged as Pontiacs/Opels, and the oddball B-body wagon probably imported by an American military person.

[Camino LS6]

OK, so why send the XTS?

[Drew Dowdell]

OK, so why send the XTS?

I think you missed my point. Why send the ATS or CTS? The Euros won't by those either.

[Camino LS6]

OK, so why send the XTS?

I think you missed my point. Why send the ATS or CTS? The Euros won't by those either.

No, I got your point (even the unspoken part about diesels).

My point is that the CTS and the ATS (I'm confident), are legitimate competitors.

The XTS is not.

[Camino LS6]

The larger point that Caddy doesn't have all of the ammo it needs for Europe is something I might agree with.

However, really good product and a sustained effort are the only things that will ever get them there.

I think the XTS would undermine such an effort.

[Drew Dowdell]

OK, so why send the XTS?

I think you missed my point. Why send the ATS or CTS? The Euros won't by those either.

No, I got your point (even the unspoken part about diesels).

My point is that the CTS and the ATS (I'm confident), are legitimate competitors.

The XTS is not.

Even with diesels, they won't sell. As I've said before, the cars could be powered by Jesus on a pogo stick and the Cadillacs will. not. sell.

Everyone here needs to remember, the current CTS actually did go on sale in the EU prior to GM's bankruptcy. It went over like burnt schnitzel. The Euros are substantially more brand conscious and unthinkably more brand-country-of-origin conscious than we are in the US. It's why the Opel Antara would sell but the Chevy Captiva doesn't.

Just a quick glance on some German used car websites and I'm finding undamaged 2008 CTS 3.6 liters with 20,000 miles for 10,000€ while 335is with more miles start around 17,500€

GM would actually probably be better off badging them as some sort of luxury Opel rather than Cadillac. There is an unusual amount of respect for the Omega over there. The ATS could be the new Omega.

[Lamar]

this is the first year the A8 is not available in just front drive

Worldwide, you mean. We haven't seen one here since 2000, I think.

[Drew Dowdell]

this is the first year the A8 is not available in just front drive

Worldwide, you mean. We haven't seen one here since 2000, I think.

I was referring to the EU. I don't know about the case in the rest of the world

[smk4565]

A lot of good points here. First problem is Cadillac has no image and is thought of as a joke in most of Europe. Whether it be Europeans think Cadillacs are for old people, that they are big, thirsty, poorly made, slow, bad handling, poor resale, etc, it doesn't really matter the reason, the image Cadillac has is terrible. Luxury cars need image to sell, so overcoming image is the first massive hurdle.

Secondly is the lineup. The XTS will fail over there, so no point in even selling it. So they have the ATS and CTS (maybe SRX), the CTS already failed over there in current form. 2-3 models don't make a brand. Cadillacs are designed for North America, Mercedes and BMW design global cars. Big difference, and Europeans are loyal to their own cars, Lexus has struggled to break into Europe and their lineup is better suited to European tastes and the Lexus image has less baggage than Cadillac's.

Cadillac isn't ready for Europe, they need to get the ATS right, improve the CTS, get DIESEL engines, and build some sort of halo car. If they go in with 4 near perfect models at the same time, they have a chance. But remember, Cadillac is up against the 3-series, the best small car in the world, the 5-series and E-class which are arguably the best midsize luxury cars in the world, the S-class, the best big luxo-sedan of all time on their home turf. Then, you have Porsche, Merc SL, Jag XK, Maserati, Aston Martin, who make the best sports/luxury and GT cars in the world, again on their home field. And the Range Rover, the most iconic 4x4 of all time, on it's home turf. This is before we get to Audi, or the quirky people buying Saabs, Volvos and Alfa Romeos.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac needs to make their lineup in the US so good (including diesels) that Jeremy Clarkson is blasting them on Top Gear for not selling them in the EU.

[SAmadei]

GM would actually probably be better off badging them as some sort of luxury Opel rather than Cadillac. There is an unusual amount of respect for the Omega over there. The ATS could be the new Omega.

Are you watching TopGear?!? There is NO love for Opel or Vauxhaul with the exception of "Oliver" and Holden rebadges. Only the OPC seems to be getting true Opel respect... and thats a very recent development.

Cadillac needs to make their lineup in the US so good (including diesels) that Jeremy Clarkson is blasting them on Top Gear for not selling them in the EU.

Agreed. Clarkson's writers already have a book and a half XTS jokes written.

[pow]

Agreed. Clarkson's writers already have a book and a half XTS jokes written.

How many Americans does it take to ruin a Saab 9-5?

[Croc]

Cadillac needs to make their lineup in the US so good (including diesels) that Jeremy Clarkson is blasting them on Top Gear for not selling them in the EU.

I can't disagree with this. And that won't happen until Cadillac has an S-Class competitor that OWNS the S-Class and outperforms the 7er, and ditches the XTS.

[Croc]

Diesel is needed in Europe and I think Croc should write CEO Akerson with the exact question he just asked about the XLR. Akerson would appreciate it.

Find me his address. I'm too lazy to google stalk him, but not so lazy I wouldn't write. I'll do it, I don't care.

GM

P.O. Box 33170

Detroit, MI 48232-5170

You've got to be kidding me. That won't make it to Akerson's desk--it doesn't even have a suite number or a c/o. I want the real address before I compose a letter.

[ZL-1]

How many Americans does it take to ruin a Saab 9-5?

that was funny.

The news re Cadillac means that GM has given up on any significant volume in Europe with Cadillac. What they seem to want is a presence with an embedded option to expand.

[hyperv6]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

Just because they build it for the NA market does not mean they will or should send it there. I would like to see the end result for this car in AWD before I pass judgment.

I expect the XTS to be more a NA car and car for China. The ATS and next CTS are prime to grow and win people to Cadillac in Europe and then you can work in the more expensive cars once you have shown you can build a good lower priced car.

To dump a $100,000 Cadillac on Europe will fail fast even if it is a good car. Most people will not spend large amounts on cars they don'r trust. An ATS could be an easy risk for them to learn more about the new Cadillac.

Besides I would expect many changes to these cars to make them more to the taste of the Euro maket. Things like a ATS Diesel Wagon etc will be seen first there vs here. I think we need to see more of GM's plans before we pass too much judgment on what they will do. I think the BLS taught them a good embarassing lesson.

GM has already shown us they are willing to make special models of the cars we have here for China so why not Europe too. Heck they even make a different Cruze for each market now.

Edited March 23, 2011 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

GM did.

See page one.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM would actually probably be better off badging them as some sort of luxury Opel rather than Cadillac. There is an unusual amount of respect for the Omega over there. The ATS could be the new Omega.

Are you watching TopGear?!? There is NO love for Opel or Vauxhaul with the exception of "Oliver" and Holden rebadges. Only the OPC seems to be getting true Opel respect... and thats a very recent development.

Cadillac needs to make their lineup in the US so good (including diesels) that Jeremy Clarkson is blasting them on Top Gear for not selling them in the EU.

Agreed. Clarkson's writers already have a book and a half XTS jokes written.

I'm not saying that top gear respects Opel. I'm saying that there is an under lying respect for the Omega, not Opels in general, in the EU.

[hyperv6]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

GM did.

See page one.

Then let them finish the car and really see what it is in final form. To prejudge something you have not driven let alone seen is a little short sighted. A informed opionion good or bad is the only one that really counts.

I may write this car off too but I will wait till we know a lot more about it.

[Camino LS6]

Who said the XTS will ever go to Europe?

GM did.

See page one.

Then let them finish the car and really see what it is in final form. To prejudge something you have not driven let alone seen is a little short sighted. A informed opionion good or bad is the only one that really counts.

I may write this car off too but I will wait till we know a lot more about it.

Meh, that's a tired old refrain at this point. As I said before, we already know enough about the XTS to know it doesn't belong in the european market.

[Drew Dowdell]

Does the A8 not belong in the European market? The A7? The A4?

How about the Citroen C6?