Where, Oh Where Did The Pontiac Owners Go?

[William Maley]

Where, Oh Where Did The Pontiac Owners Go?

William Maley - Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

March 12, 2011

When Pontiac shut their doors in 2010, the question of whether GM could keep owners in the fold was asked. Polk automotive has finished up a survey that sheds some light on where former Pontiac owners went. Out of the 57,641 Pontiac owners who bought new cars in 2010, GM was able to retain 53.3% (about 30,723 owners). 35.5% of Pontiac owners went with Chevrolet, 11.7% with GMC, 6.7% to Buick, and 1.5% to Cadillac.

Other domestic brands also took a nice chunk of Pontiac owners. Ford got 10.5% while Chrysler got 4.9% of owners.

Imports took nearly 31% of Pontiac owners. The big winners there were Toyota (7.7% ), Honda (7.5% ), and Nissan (5.9% ).

Source: Polk Automotive

[Satty]

I'd love to see the split from other years, I'm sure there would be some interesting theories as to why Pontiac didn't have a 100% retention rate over the last 20 years.

[ocnblu]

So they held on to a little over half so far. This was Pontiac owners who traded their Pontiacs in on a new car in 2010. Lots of factors here, including diminished confidence in GM's staying power in general, differing vehicle needs this time around, etc.

I wonder if the question was asked whether these folks WOULD HAVE bought another Pontiac if they still existed new.

Any customer lost is a blow. Keeping 53.3% is meh, not too bad I guess.

The last, really cool Pontiacs, like Solstice GXP, G8, and G6 3.6L (GTP, not Bugs Bunny) cars prolly aren't ready to be traded yet... let's see how this goes going forward.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Better than their retention rate of Oldsmobile customers IIRC

[Justin Bimmer]

I wonder what the split was on pontiac owners when there were still new pontiacs for sale.

[SAmadei]

I'd love to see the split from other years, I'm sure there would be some interesting theories as to why Pontiac didn't have a 100% retention rate over the last 20 years.

I'd like to see the split from Chevy the last few years. Nobody can expect a 100% retention rate, even during Pontiac's '70s heydays.

Honestly, with GM's problems the last decade, I imagine any brand would be thrilled to keep 60% retention.

It would be interesting to get some info about the people that bolted or stayed GM. I would imagine GM retained more older buyers... but younger drivers bolted.

Of course, any numbers I take with a grain of salt... considering that Pontiac sold roughly between 250-500K cars a year in the last decade, to only have 57K respondents is between 1-20% of a year's sales. I imagine diehards still smarting from the loss would have hung up the phone on Polk.

[Drew Dowdell]

Saturn had the highest retention rate in GM I believe... the problem was they had a hard time getting new customers.

[hyperv6]

I wonder if they are counting in this 53% Enterprise changing from the G6 to the Malibu?

Pontiac lost a lot of traditional loyal buyers over the years. From 79 on their sales would ebb and flow based on if they had an interesting model to offer.

The last few years many were buying G6's and G5's because they had had a good car with really cheap prices on them. The people I know who bought them did not buy Pontiac they bought cheap monthly payments. Now when these people come back to buy GM will only retain them if they have a car they feel is a good value. They for sure did not buy for performance or excitement.

Now with the G8 buyers they are more of the traditional buyer. The key here is to get them into a Camaro or the Chevy sport sedan when or if it arrives. These though few buyers really represent a Pontiac performance buyer. I would like to see how these buyers chose their new cars in the coming years.

The Solsitce was nearing the end even if Pontiac has survived. I really have to beleive it would have lasted a couple more years and would have gone away. The economy and the limited sales market for small 2 seaters is hard to keep alive long term. The Miata and Vetter are the few that do well. Even the Vette Sales tanked last year.

Edited March 13, 2011 by hyperv6

[z28luvr01]

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

[Drew Dowdell]

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

It saved them money.

Instead of developing an Insignia, Regal, Grand Am, AND an Aura, they developed just the Insignia (and did a great job) and slapped Buick badges on it for the places they don't sell Opel. For people who were in it for the deal, there is the still very nice Malibu. For those who want something nicer and sportier, there is the Regal.

Ditto Cobat/G5 - Cruze/Verano

Ditto Aveo/G3 - Sonic

Only the G8 and Solctice don't have a direct replacement...... yet.

[hyperv6]

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

It saved them money.

Instead of developing an Insignia, Regal, Grand Am, AND an Aura, they developed just the Insignia (and did a great job) and slapped Buick badges on it for the places they don't sell Opel. For people who were in it for the deal, there is the still very nice Malibu. For those who want something nicer and sportier, there is the Regal.

Ditto Cobat/G5 - Cruze/Verano

Ditto Aveo/G3 - Sonic

Only the G8 and Solctice don't have a direct replacement...... yet.

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

As I have tried to tell people it is a different world and different car market today. It is either adapt or die. A company can not longer duplicate 5 version of a car and expect to make more money. You can only dilute the pool of cars so much till you end up with 6 weak car divisons or 3 stronger well definded ones. There is only so much money to go around and it gets spred thin and hurts the end product.

Edited March 14, 2011 by hyperv6

[Croc]

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

It saved them money.

Instead of developing an Insignia, Regal, Grand Am, AND an Aura, they developed just the Insignia (and did a great job) and slapped Buick badges on it for the places they don't sell Opel. For people who were in it for the deal, there is the still very nice Malibu. For those who want something nicer and sportier, there is the Regal.

Ditto Cobat/G5 - Cruze/Verano

Ditto Aveo/G3 - Sonic

Only the G8 and Solctice don't have a direct replacement...... yet.

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

Camino? Ocnblu? Anyone else?

[ocnblu]

Kindly get out of my face.

[Satty]

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

It saved them money.

Instead of developing an Insignia, Regal, Grand Am, AND an Aura, they developed just the Insignia (and did a great job) and slapped Buick badges on it for the places they don't sell Opel. For people who were in it for the deal, there is the still very nice Malibu. For those who want something nicer and sportier, there is the Regal.

Ditto Cobat/G5 - Cruze/Verano

Ditto Aveo/G3 - Sonic

Only the G8 and Solctice don't have a direct replacement...... yet.

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

Camino? Ocnblu? Anyone else?

GM4life, I'm sure we could find a handful of others who said it as well. The fact is GM is healthier without Pontiac than it was with Pontiac the last 30 years.

[Justin Bimmer]

CaddyXLRv

[Z-06]

Here is the graph for 2010 retention rates.

In 2008 Pontiac had a retention rate of 27%

[Cory Wolfe]

Oh my Saab.

[Croc]

Kindly get out of my face.

Did you not actually say that? I'll retract if necessary.

GM did fairly well in retaining a good chunk of Pontiac buyers. However, they did it by adding to Chevy and adding to Buick. I still don't see how closing Pontiac saved GM anything significant.

Hopefully they're working on something that would be a "suitable" replacement for the G8 over at Chevy. And by suitable I mean "a Zeta that's not a Camaro" .

It saved them money.

Instead of developing an Insignia, Regal, Grand Am, AND an Aura, they developed just the Insignia (and did a great job) and slapped Buick badges on it for the places they don't sell Opel. For people who were in it for the deal, there is the still very nice Malibu. For those who want something nicer and sportier, there is the Regal.

Ditto Cobat/G5 - Cruze/Verano

Ditto Aveo/G3 - Sonic

Only the G8 and Solctice don't have a direct replacement...... yet.

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

Camino? Ocnblu? Anyone else?

GM4life, I'm sure we could find a handful of others who said it as well. The fact is GM is healthier without Pontiac than it was with Pontiac the last 30 years.

Forgot about him. He bought a purple Torrent right at the end, right? Because it was a much better SUV compared to the Equinox, which was just too cheap in comparison, right?

CaddyXLRv

Did he actually think GM was going to fail, or was he more like I was in not personally caring for the decision, but not being devastated by it either??

[FAPTurbo]

I'm never buying a GM vehicle after what they did to Pontiac. My next vehicle was going to have air vents that had air vents in their air vents and Pontiac was the only brand that delivered that unique experience.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm never buying a GM vehicle after what they did to Pontiac. My next vehicle was going to have air vents that had air vents in their air vents and Pontiac was the only brand that delivered that unique experience.

I must have my 360 degree maneuverable vents!

[balthazar]

Mustang !

[SAmadei]

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

Camino? Ocnblu? Anyone else?

For starters, I don't remember anyone saying GM was going to die without Pontiac. Buick-GMC on the other hand, is a different story. In addition, it was never even stated that GMC-Buick would die in 2011... it was stated that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC either have to water down their product to bring in thrifty young buyers or buyers looking for an inexpensive sporty car or would suffer a long slide as the average B-GMC buyer spirals into the grave. The bottom line is that as of right now, GMC-Buick dealers have about as much new product as can be expected, and yet have huge holes in their product lineup. IIRC, with the exception of the Granite, Buick and GMC have long waits now before anything comes out, and its all going to be more of the same... SUVs and sedans. The clock is ticking before the GMC-Buick dealers demand a Buick Spark.

Buick and GMC are on an uptick... but so is the entire market. Buick is still a shell of its former glory, sales-wise, and 90% of GMC is what Chevy is selling cheaper down the block... and faces CAFE image problems.

Unless Buick manages to start pulling in very young, new blood, the feeling was that Buick-GMC will join Pontiac in the junkyard in the sky by the end of the decade... and the same people will cheer as GM can SAVE MORE money by only making one car and one truck brand... and everyone can buy them in any color, as long as their black.

Honestly, without Pontiac, if Buick can't maintain the current sales momentum even with 3-4 year old models, I still see little reason for them to stick around as a distribution channel. The Chevy-Cadillac model will reign supreme.

GM4life, I'm sure we could find a handful of others who said it as well. The fact is GM is healthier without Pontiac than it was with Pontiac the last 30 years.

Hyperbole. You only have to go back to 1999 to find a more profitable GM with Pontiac. Actually, it seems to me that since the IPO, GM's health is already faltering again... without Pontiac dragging it down.

No, instead, GM is healthier without Saturn, SAAB (as GM ran it), Hummer and the legacy costs they flushed away in the BK. If Pontiac was maintained as a niche brand, they would be selling MORE cars today... because GM could have kept the unique models Pontiac offered, such as the affordable G6 coupe/convertible, Solstice and the G8 and variants. Anyone looking for these kinds of cars simply DO NOT SHOP at GM 2011, because GM offers nothing comparable.

Any GM fan celebrating Pontiac's demise has been drinking too much Toyota brand Kool-Aid.

For the record, its my opinion (and several well paid financial writers) that if GM fails, it will be because of a perfect storm... the union will continue its greed ways, CAFE will kill off all the larger vehicles and China will eventually finish off GM at the low end.

[hyperv6]

And how many cried that GM was going to fail without Pontiac?

Camino? Ocnblu? Anyone else?

For starters, I don't remember anyone saying GM was going to die without Pontiac. Buick-GMC on the other hand, is a different story. In addition, it was never even stated that GMC-Buick would die in 2011... it was stated that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC either have to water down their product to bring in thrifty young buyers or buyers looking for an inexpensive sporty car or would suffer a long slide as the average B-GMC buyer spirals into the grave. The bottom line is that as of right now, GMC-Buick dealers have about as much new product as can be expected, and yet have huge holes in their product lineup. IIRC, with the exception of the Granite, Buick and GMC have long waits now before anything comes out, and its all going to be more of the same... SUVs and sedans. The clock is ticking before the GMC-Buick dealers demand a Buick Spark.

Buick and GMC are on an uptick... but so is the entire market. Buick is still a shell of its former glory, sales-wise, and 90% of GMC is what Chevy is selling cheaper down the block... and faces CAFE image problems.

Unless Buick manages to start pulling in very young, new blood, the feeling was that Buick-GMC will join Pontiac in the junkyard in the sky by the end of the decade... and the same people will cheer as GM can SAVE MORE money by only making one car and one truck brand... and everyone can buy them in any color, as long as their black.

Honestly, without Pontiac, if Buick can't maintain the current sales momentum even with 3-4 year old models, I still see little reason for them to stick around as a distribution channel. The Chevy-Cadillac model will reign supreme.

GM4life, I'm sure we could find a handful of others who said it as well. The fact is GM is healthier without Pontiac than it was with Pontiac the last 30 years.

Hyperbole. You only have to go back to 1999 to find a more profitable GM with Pontiac. Actually, it seems to me that since the IPO, GM's health is already faltering again... without Pontiac dragging it down.

No, instead, GM is healthier without Saturn, SAAB (as GM ran it), Hummer and the legacy costs they flushed away in the BK. If Pontiac was maintained as a niche brand, they would be selling MORE cars today... because GM could have kept the unique models Pontiac offered, such as the affordable G6 coupe/convertible, Solstice and the G8 and variants. Anyone looking for these kinds of cars simply DO NOT SHOP at GM 2011, because GM offers nothing comparable.

Any GM fan celebrating Pontiac's demise has been drinking too much Toyota brand Kool-Aid.

For the record, its my opinion (and several well paid financial writers) that if GM fails, it will be because of a perfect storm... the union will continue its greed ways, CAFE will kill off all the larger vehicles and China will eventually finish off GM at the low end.

1999 - 2009 Were golden years alright. If Lutz had gotten here 5-7 year prior we may still have Pontiac. But as it is he was just too lateand too under funded to do much. Market and buyers have changed.

There was not much of a loyal Pontiac following anymore and that is why so few people other than sites like this really were upset with the loss.

Lets face it If Buick makes it here or not really matters little as they will live on in China. Pontiac had no such back up fall back plan and it cost them.

As you have pointed out the many problems the industry faces. These are signs that the American love affair of the autombile is at a end or great decline. Just look at people today and the reasons they buy and drive the vehicles they do. At one point cars were a reflection of the owners. Today they are just a way to get from place to place. Few people drive Camrys because it reflects good on their image.

Time has moved on with many things that were once good in our lives. Sometimes the more we advance the more we decline. We are no longer in the golden era of the automobile.

China is the 600 pound gorilla in the room and it will do more than damage our auto industry. Their demand for oil in the next 5 years will increase and if it out strips supplies I would hate to see the price. The unrest in Saudi Arabia is enough to give pause if the world would lose their 10% of oil they add to the world market.

There will be some historic and tough times in the future. We now have greed on all levels in Ameica as everyone wants or feels an entitilement things will continue to decline.

Edited March 15, 2011 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

Before I saw that bar graph, i was going to suggest that half the time regardless people defect to another brand. So it turns out that industry average is 48%. So GM only did 5% better than industry average, which is not statistically significant to most folks...

So really there is no achievament here. Likewise, there is no epic failure.

So in the end it reverts to whether GM is selling more, making more dough, and having it cost them less to do so.

Pontiac used to advertise the 'first G6' or something like that. I don't think anyone was really waiting with baited breath for the second one.

Take a look at Saturn. I doubt 50% of the people out there remember Saturn anymore. Mercury? LMAO!!!!!

[SAmadei]

1999 - 2009 Were golden years alright. If Lutz had gotten here 5-7 year prior we may still have Pontiac. But as it is he was just too late and too under funded to do much. Market and buyers have changed. There was not much of a loyal Pontiac following anymore and that is why so few people other than sites like this really were upset with the loss.

I only quote 1999, as it was the latest year GM profit was above 2010s.

If Lutz would have gotten here earlier, I'm not sure much would have changed. Maybe GM would have developed the controversial 1999 GTO? A better Bonneville? I don't think he would have stuck around long enough to give us the Monaro based GTO, Solstice or G8, as the feeling was that GM could do no wrong with more and more SUVs.

Lets face it If Buick makes it here or not really matters little as they will live on in China. Pontiac had no back up fall back plan and it cost them.

Years from now, we'll laugh at that. China has no respect for intellectual property... and I imagine at one point, they will dissolve the agreements with GM, seize factories and start building Buecks. GM imports into China will face a nasty tariff.

As you have pointed out the many problems the industry faces. These are signs that the American love affair of the autombile is at a end. Just look at people today and the reasons they buy and drive the vehicles they do. At one point cars were a reflection of the owners. Today they are just a way to get from place to place. Few people drive Camrys because it reflects good on their image.

Time has moved on with many things that were once good in our lives. Sometimes the more we advance the more we decline.

Well, I'm trying to remain positive. But when I follow the negative side of this, I foresee the loss of the American love affair with the automobile as the first step in forcing people into public transportation and controlling our freedom of travel.

Again, perhaps the death of the new automobile will be the best thing... I'll be perfectly fine driving/fixing yesterday's rides on the roads with the truckers and buses as the new automobile is litigated out of existence.

[Justin Bimmer]

Whats inside a car is becoming what defines people more and more. Horsepower and fins have been replaced by integration, comfort, and features.

[FAPTurbo]

Yes, because the loss of the 'American love affair' with the automobile is being facilitated by incredibly better average fuel economy, and new technologies like Sat-Nav which enable people to spend a longer time driving, and doing it in comfort.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah its a bleak futures. When a compact car looks rides and has features of a larger car and can pull skidpad numbers rivaling sports cars. Life's pretty terrible.

If only they still made muscle cars...o-wait.

If only they still made trucks...o-wait.

GM's four remaining brands are stronger now than the 8 brands it had. GM's product is highly competitive, and Buick, the brand everything thought was dead, even here, is challenging Lexus for top selling luxury brand in the US this year, and with only four (very good) models.

Things don't look bad to me.

As for the love affair, the masses then and now bought cars for transportation, and those who love cars have always been the smaller group. It's not like in 1962 100% of every car buyer bought it because they were an enthusiast. The love is still here today and plenty strong, its just a specific group of people, like its always been.

[Satty]

The important thing isn't that some peoples predictions based on emotions and outdated logic have been proven wrongs, its that GM is making sales.

[Croc]

The important thing isn't that some peoples predictions based on emotions and outdated logic have been proven wrongs, its that GM is making sales.

Bingo.

[ZL-1]

I'm never buying a GM vehicle after what they did to Pontiac. My next vehicle was going to have air vents that had air vents in their air vents and Pontiac was the only brand that delivered that unique experience.

[hyperv6]

The important thing isn't that some peoples predictions based on emotions and outdated logic have been proven wrongs, its that GM is making sales.

Very true. Too many think with their hearts and not the brains.

But if one is passionate about cars it is easy to do.

[SAmadei]

Yes, because the loss of the 'American love affair' with the automobile is being facilitated by incredibly better average fuel economy, and new technologies like Sat-Nav which enable people to spend a longer time driving, and doing it in comfort.

Keep on Fappin' to your Sat-Nav. The rest of us will use things like memory and spatial reckoning. I can't imagine why you even use your windshield anymore.

I haven't seen the average fuel economy numbers for 2010 yet, but otherwise, average fuel economy topped out in 1987.

I haven't been physically comfortable in a car made since 1999.

How does Sat-Nav enable people to spend a longer time driving? Gets them lost more? Parks them in longer traffic jams? Wait, since when do people want LONGER trips?

Yeah its a bleak futures. When a compact car looks rides and has features of a larger car and can pull skidpad numbers rivaling sports cars. Life's pretty terrible.

This is the second stupidest things I've ever heard today. What compact car has the feature of space? Are you not following other threads where people lament the ability to put a one suitcase per passenger in the vehicle? "Oh, get a minivan" is NOT a viable retort.

Even large cars today have hardly any space. Who gives a crap if you can play Angry Birds on your Sync system if your driver is smashing his shoulder into the passenger's face for two hours?!?

Penny-wise but pound foolish.

If only they still made muscle cars...o-wait.

Here we go again. GM doesn't make a muscle car. And GM's current pony car is a thousand pounds fatter, is larger externally and SMALLER internally that its retro '67-'69 cousin, making for an ergonomic nightmare.

If only they still made trucks...o-wait.

This has nothing to do with anything. Some people don't want trucks.

GM's four remaining brands are stronger now than the 8 brands it had. GM's product is highly competitive, and Buick, the brand everything thought was dead, even here, is challenging Lexus for top selling luxury brand in the US this year, and with only four (very good) models.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, Buick IS doing good... but they have to maintain that momentum even as those models age. That remains to be seen. GM does not have a good history of maintaining sales momentum.

And a 3 way GM (Chevy, Cadillac, BPG) would be even stronger than the current one. With virtually no marketing, G8 sales were GM's sixth best selling when the ax fell and were only getting stronger.

Things don't look bad to me.

Of course not. They got all the interior seams to line up PERFECTLY! Who cares if you can't point the car with the throttle or drive it without having your knees on top of the dashboard. Its got Sat-Nav! It enables you to drive longer!

[hyperv6]

Just some observations at the Cleveland Autoshow.

The Buick display had more people than I ever saw looking the new cars. The Regal and Lacross really had a lot of people looking them over. I can remember the last time I had to wait to get into a Buick.

I set the wife out to see what she liked. Her present car is the 04 GTP Comp G and her last car was a 97 SSEI. She really likes the Regal and LaCrosse.

What shocked me was how she even liked the Verano. She did not even know of one till she saw it and thought it was nice inside and out. To be honest it was a lot nicer than I expected too.

Right now if she had to pick a car it would be a Nox or Regal. The Lacrosse would also be considered. I want to try to hold out till the Chevy Sports sedan arrives I think I could talk her into that one too since she did like the G8. But she has to drive it so I will give her last call on what we buy.

I don't know if any of you do this but I often will stand watch and listen to many of the people at the show. From what I saw and heard GM is doing well.

Even my son picked his cars. The Corvette Carbon Z06 and the CTS V coupe were two he really loved. Good taste for 9 years old. I am doing my part to teach him well and try to bring the youth back to loving cars. He will also know how to drive a standard too before he is 16.

Edited March 15, 2011 by hyperv6

[ZL-1]

Yeah its a bleak futures. When a compact car looks rides and has features of a larger car and can pull skidpad numbers rivaling sports cars. Life's pretty terrible.

If only they still made muscle cars...o-wait.

If only they still made trucks...o-wait.

GM's four remaining brands are stronger now than the 8 brands it had. GM's product is highly competitive, and Buick, the brand everything thought was dead, even here, is challenging Lexus for top selling luxury brand in the US this year, and with only four (very good) models.

Things don't look bad to me.

As for the love affair, the masses then and now bought cars for transportation, and those who love cars have always been the smaller group. It's not like in 1962 100% of every car buyer bought it because they were an enthusiast. The love is still here today and plenty strong, its just a specific group of people, like its always been.

I agree 100%; very good post!

[balthazar]

The statement that 'cars are using their interior space more efficiently' still misses the fact that they have so much less interior space.

An eggshell is masterful at maximizing interior space; doesn't mean I want to be crammed inside one.

[FAPTurbo]

Yes, because the loss of the 'American love affair' with the automobile is being facilitated by incredibly better average fuel economy, and new technologies like Sat-Nav which enable people to spend a longer time driving, and doing it in comfort.

Keep on Fappin' to your Sat-Nav. The rest of us will use things like memory and spatial reckoning. I can't imagine why you even use your windshield anymore.

I haven't seen the average fuel economy numbers for 2010 yet, but otherwise, average fuel economy topped out in 1987.

I haven't been physically comfortable in a car made since 1999.

How does Sat-Nav enable people to spend a longer time driving? Gets them lost more? Parks them in longer traffic jams? Wait, since when do people want LONGER trips?

Ok fine then. What exactly is this 'love affair?' Because, according to everything I've heard and read, this 'love affair with the automobile' is how it has expanded mobility and allows people to traverse large distances efficiently. Better fuel economy, and interior goodies allow people to spend MORE time in their vehicles, thus travelling further. Sat-Nav is just one of the pleasures of technology, in addition to mp3 capability, surround sound, multi-point airbags and heated/cooled seats to name a few.

It's not like anyone is forcing you to buy this stuff. It just enhances the mass appeal of the automobile.

Unless you're Andre the Giant, I've no idea how you cannot be comfortable in any car since the turn of the millennium. I'm 6'2, 230, and pretty much a monster truck that just happens to walk like a man, and there's only two vehicles I cannot get comfy in: the Acura ZDX and the Boxster. Every car, even a Smart car, I've been able to get comfy in, and I rode in that Smart for a good two hours without any issue.

[Justin Bimmer]

Who gives a crap if you can play Angry Birds on your Sync system if your driver is smashing his shoulder into the passenger's face for two hours?!?

Apparently more and more people as it is becoming more of a trend to ride with electronics and integration. I have been in small cars and im 6'4'' and I have never had my shoulder in somebody's face.

[Intrepidation]

I'm 6'1 and at 250 lbs, yet I can get comfortable in most cars. In fact the only car I feel that doesn't have enough seat travel is, ironically, the big Grand Marquis we have.

So you must be like 7' to not be able to get comfortable or fit in a car.

[Satty]

I'm 6'3 and have driven the 1100ish mileage from Springfield, MO to Washington D.C. in a Mini. Even did it with enough clothes to last 10 days and other various things that couldn't go with the movers. Am I a wizard?

[Intrepidation]

I'm 6'3 and have driven the 1100ish mileage from Springfield, MO to Washington D.C. in a Mini. Even did it with enough clothes to last 10 days and other various things that couldn't go with the movers. Am I a wizard?

No, you sir are a warlock.

[FAPTurbo]

Inventory hacks.

[regfootball]

not sure what you saw at your autoshow. i worked 20 hrs at ours here and there were no requests for coupes, rear wheel drive, v8's.

everyone here at least wants in this order.

all wheel drive.

fuel economy (like way better than 30 mpg)

20k price.

makes me think the Granite is DOA unless they work an AWD into the mix.

Just some observations at the Cleveland Autoshow.

The Buick display had more people than I ever saw looking the new cars. The Regal and Lacross really had a lot of people looking them over. I can remember the last time I had to wait to get into a Buick.

I set the wife out to see what she liked. Her present car is the 04 GTP Comp G and her last car was a 97 SSEI. She really likes the Regal and LaCrosse.

What shocked me was how she even liked the Verano. She did not even know of one till she saw it and thought it was nice inside and out. To be honest it was a lot nicer than I expected too.

Right now if she had to pick a car it would be a Nox or Regal. The Lacrosse would also be considered. I want to try to hold out till the Chevy Sports sedan arrives I think I could talk her into that one too since she did like the G8. But she has to drive it so I will give her last call on what we buy.

I don't know if any of you do this but I often will stand watch and listen to many of the people at the show. From what I saw and heard GM is doing well.

Even my son picked his cars. The Corvette Carbon Z06 and the CTS V coupe were two he really loved. Good taste for 9 years old. I am doing my part to teach him well and try to bring the youth back to loving cars. He will also know how to drive a standard too before he is 16.

[hyperv6]

That is about the same I saw here except the AWD part. Most people if they want AWD are looing at trucks. Besides AWD system in a $20K car that gets 30 MPG is pretty pointless. It would be underpowered and not a top of the line system.

One has to be realistic. The Soul and other boxed cars on the market sell well without AWD so the DOA is a little premature.

The High MPG and low price is why so many of the Korean cars are selling. Right now with high gas prices it is a hot button. If the price drops it's back to the trucks.

Edited March 16, 2011 by hyperv6

[Potluck]

Pontiac owners went to Hyundai or Kia or anyone else offering $199 with no money down leases on a midsize.

[SAmadei]

Ok fine then. What exactly is this 'love affair?' Because, according to everything I've heard and read, this 'love affair with the automobile' is how it has expanded mobility and allows people to traverse large distances efficiently.

Granted, the "love affair" is under assault from all sides. But having cookie-cutter, interchangeable appliance-mobiles is not helping getting people into a more enthusiastic relationship with their car or car manufacturer.

Hardly anybody drives today "to just go for a ride". In fact, there is something fun about just getting lost, sometimes. The car used to be a form of freedom... a destination... not just a device to take you to the destination. It was about discovering the things and people along the way... and your car became almost a member of the travel group, because it had personality.

Nowadays, parents drive their kids wherever the kids want... and half the time, they watch movies or play video games instead of enjoy the trip.

I guess your "love affair" can be whatever you want. But sitting in traffic and playing with a Sat-Nav is not one of them, to me.

Better fuel economy, and interior goodies allow people to spend MORE time in their vehicles, thus travelling further. Sat-Nav is just one of the pleasures of technology, in addition to mp3 capability, surround sound, multi-point airbags and heated/cooled seats to name a few.

People are spending more time in their cars because the HAVE to. Nobody drives 80 miles round trip to work everyday if they can avoid it.

I've never used my air-bags... and I survived every major accident I had with my non-airbag equipped cars without a bruise, so I feel we don't need 80 of them in the car.

And stop hawking this better fuel economy... it topped out in 1987 during a time when cars, on average, had MUCH more space.

It's not like anyone is forcing you to buy this stuff. It just enhances the mass appeal of the automobile.

Actually, they are. GM is trying to push the average sales transaction price up... so you are stuck buying these stuff. Where can I buy a stripped down G8? You couldn't.

Personally, I feel some of this stuff is already boring commodity stuff. I had a MP3 head unit in my '88 Safari wagon in 2001... why didn't GM? I didn't love my Safari because it had a had a MP3 player. I loved it because nobody had anything like it... NOS infused 403 putting the beat down on Mustangs and Camaros with 4x8 sheets of plywood in the back.

[SAmadei]

Unless you're Andre the Giant, I've no idea how you cannot be comfortable in any car since the turn of the millennium. I'm 6'2, 230, and pretty much a monster truck that just happens to walk like a man, and there's only two vehicles I cannot get comfy in: the Acura ZDX and the Boxster. Every car, even a Smart car, I've been able to get comfy in, and I rode in that Smart for a good two hours without any issue.

Who gives a crap if you can play Angry Birds on your Sync system if your driver is smashing his shoulder into the passenger's face for two hours?!?

Apparently more and more people as it is becoming more of a trend to ride with electronics and integration. I have been in small cars and im 6'4'' and I have never had my shoulder in somebody's face.

I'm 6'1 and at 250 lbs, yet I can get comfortable in most cars. In fact the only car I feel that doesn't have enough seat travel is, ironically, the big Grand Marquis we have.

So you must be like 7' to not be able to get comfortable or fit in a car.

(I had the same problem with a rental Grand Marquis.)

I'm 6'3 and have driven the 1100ish mileage from Springfield, MO to Washington D.C. in a Mini. Even did it with enough clothes to last 10 days and other various things that couldn't go with the movers. Am I a wizard?

Wow what a bunch of 95 pound weaklings. ;-)

Simply quoting height and weight does nothing to illustrate automotive comfort.

For the record, I'm 6'4" and 400 and change... not Andre by a longshot, but I'm closer than you guys apparently. I am very broad at the shoulder and have around 81" of reach. I'm more torso, with somewhat shorter legs (still long, though)... if my legs were in in a normal average ratio to my torso, I'd be roughly 6'9 6'10". I certainly can stand to lose some weight, but the gut disappears at roughly 325, so I'm husky, not super flabby. I'm also somewhat claustrophobic if I'm in a space which limits my limb movement.

I don't consider myself to be freakishly large... cars USED to be designed for people my size.

The problem here is unlike you guys, I was not conditioned on modern, small cars. My cars historically have been large '60s and '70s or '80s B-bods... which I fit in fine. I can move around in these cars... swing my arms around if need be, adjust my position, etc. Bonneville, DTS, Concorde, GP coupe are all tightish, but acceptable.

Apparently, you guys are used to being in a tight car and considering it comfortable. I don't.

"Comfort" to me is simply not fitting into the car. I "fit" in a Mini. I "fit" in a Corolla... but it usually entails sitting slouched, crooked or unable to belt myself without hanging out the door. However, simply fitting is not comfortable. Driving the Corolla involves having my right leg in a convoluted position that aggravates my right knee and ankle. Getting in and out of the car is a major project of folding arms, legs and torso. I have to sit so far reclined I cannot use the arm rest, instead I have to angle over the passenger due to the B-pillar protrusion.

I'm getting too old to drive an car in a uncomfortable position for long periods.

Also, its nice to be able to enjoy the luxury of having a passenger behind me... thats why I bought that seat, right? Few people can sit behind me in any car.

Surprising cars:

Mini. Passenger side wasn't bad... driver's side seat track is slightly more forward, which hurts the rearward travel... and crunches my legs painfully.

Smart car. Fit fine. Its not that small of a car, because its a two-door and have no space wasting, useless rear seat.

Sunfire coupe. Seat track and recline is awful, but at least climbing out of car is not a folding struggle.

Problem cars:

The F'ing Corolla. Looking forward to GF buying something else... but its better than similar sized domestics. Usually don't have to drive this abomination. I am currently looking into fabricating hardware to shift the seat tracks rearward. Since this car has no real trunk, anytime we have to put something large in the back seat, I no longer can recline and I have to tilt over towards the other front seat occupant... hence shoulder in their face.

Focus. Got out and preferred the Corolla.

G6 sedan. Dreadful. Repeatedly smashed controls while trying to reach around interior. Was most comfortable driving with the top of my head out the open sunroof.

Malibu. Same as G6... returned to rental office for DTS.

Solstice. Got wedged after being egged on and required 3-4 people to help get me out. Will not retry that.

Grand Prix, Impala. Have to sit canted towards center of car due to lack of seat travel, B pillar and forced height.

G8. Driver's seat painfully tight. Passenger seat, I could not occupy due to limited seat travel. GTO had similar problems. This is simply bad engineering, just like the Impala/GP.

M3. Damaged steering wheel tilt mechanism while trying to get leg under wheel while not smashing head on roof. Hit rev limiter trying to get out. Unable to steer car at 10 and 2 without hitting elbows into window/door/passenger... this was a problem, as it was enforced by the instructor. I recall there being some other major issues, though.

Camaro. Major headroom problems. Adjusting seat still required reclining... and was not comfortable with regard to the steering wheel distance.

Mustang. Had to sit somewhat sideways, which drove knees into center console, due to me being a passenger in a stick car. Professional race driver didn't like me encroaching on his space due high speed maneuvers on the track.

I complain about car sizing only because we have LOST the luxury of space, and soon NO car will be comfortable to me. Cars have gotten taller and, longer in wheelbase, and yet still headroom has shrunk, seat tracks don't go back far enough, and back seats have become a joke. My feeling is that cars are being designed to women's proportions... who like to sit higher and closer to the wheel... unfortunately, its easier for a small person to fit in a large car than the opposite.

[Cory Wolfe]

For the record, I'm 6'4" and 400 and change... not Andre by a longshot, but I'm closer than you guys apparently. I am very broad at the shoulder and have around 81" of reach. I'm more torso, with somewhat shorter legs (still long, though)... if my legs were in in a normal average ratio to my torso, I'd be roughly 6'9 6'10". I certainly can stand to lose some weight, but the gut disappears at roughly 325, so I'm husky, not super flabby. I'm also somewhat claustrophobic if I'm in a space which limits my limb movement.

Off topic, I wouldn't want to get on your bad side... I'm easily a third of you at 5'6" and 120lbs.

[Potluck]

I see I got some negative number for saying that people bought pontiacs because they were cheap? Let me guess, the 40,000 G8s that sold retail with no rebates completely outweighs the 500,000 G6es sold with $5,000 on the hood?

[Satty]

The G8 had rebates, but your right, most Pontiacs only virtue was cheapness. You were marked down because Pontiac is still a sore subject for a few people who thought of the brand as a sacred cow. If you're interested you can read some of the old threads in the Pontiac forum, they get contentious. Also, look for the EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!! Thread in the lounge, its locked but still good for a laugh.