XTS Spy Shots

[Justin Bimmer]

Just like the S-class is what ever other big sedan tries to be like. No one is chasing Cadillac, that is why I don't like the XTS, it is just a modern DTS, not a car that gives Cadillac any position of leadership.

The only position of leadership I care about is sales. Who cares who has the most HP and the most of anything if the car doesn't sell.

[Drew Dowdell]

A Chevy truck with extra bling and chrome isn't a good flagship either. You don't want to be known for making a big gas guzzler, that is what did Hummer in. Better to have a dopey hybrid as your icon like Toyota because then everything is all sunshine and bubbles. At least in the eyes of the sheeple.

sheeple don't buy luxury flagships. They buy pruises.

[Intrepidation]

I agree that a done up Tahoe does not a flagship make. If anything is a flagship its the CTS-V. Not only is it bespoke, but, at least when it came out a couple years ago, it was the best in the segment. A true Standard of the World.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree that a done up Tahoe does not a flagship make. If anything is a flagship its the CTS-V. Not only is it bespoke, but, at least when it came out a couple years ago, it was the best in the segment. A true Standard of the World.

And a dressed up Taxi-cab does?

[Intrepidation]

Not an apples to apples comparison. The S-Class isn't based on pedestrian version of itself for starters.

Besides this is Mercedes' flagship.

[smk4565]

Just like the S-class is what ever other big sedan tries to be like. No one is chasing Cadillac, that is why I don't like the XTS, it is just a modern DTS, not a car that gives Cadillac any position of leadership.

The only position of leadership I care about is sales. Who cares who has the most HP and the most of anything if the car doesn't sell.

But look at how the MKS, DTS, S80, Acura RL sell. Those are the $40k + front drive sedans, all sales dogs. Lucerne near dead, Park Ave, Aurora, and Bonneville are dead, front drive Chrysler LH platform is dead. Big front drivers, especially luxury ones are fading. There are too many good rear drivers that can mop the floor with FWD cars in handling and ride at the XTS's price point.

[Robert Hall]

If you want Cadillac's largest vehicle to be the flagship....

I got your flagship right here. Respected by NBA stars and mobsters alike.....

Meh..that's just a tarted up Tahoe/Suburban..just a truck, nothing significant. And anything 'respected' by a bunch of subliterate felons isn't necessarily a flagship.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Robert Hall]

What is disappointing about it. I really like it and would potentially buy one if one of my other businesses takes off.

Well, since anyone who complains about the FWD shortcomings is ridiculed here, I'll leave that out. Also its dreadful FWD proportions. I'll also not start about how it confusing that Cadillac's largest car is not a flagship and seems more like a overpriced, rebadged Buick.

The single biggest disappointment to me is that its too narrow. The second biggest disappointment is that it everything we've seen about the XTS's design screams "would have been sweet in 2004".

The XTS is just a FWD generic, based on Epsilon II? Not remotely flagship material...but it will give Cadillac something to compete w/ the ES and MKS.

Not an apples to apples comparison. The S-Class isn't based on pedestrian version of itself for starters.

Besides this is Mercedes' flagship.

Now that is a flagship. Serious, RWD, not some truck or FWD generic...

Just like the S-class is what ever other big sedan tries to be like. No one is chasing Cadillac, that is why I don't like the XTS, it is just a modern DTS, not a car that gives Cadillac any position of leadership.

The only position of leadership I care about is sales. Who cares who has the most HP and the most of anything if the car doesn't sell.

But look at how the MKS, DTS, S80, Acura RL sell. Those are the $40k + front drive sedans, all sales dogs. Lucerne near dead, Park Ave, Aurora, and Bonneville are dead, front drive Chrysler LH platform is dead. Big front drivers, especially luxury ones are fading. There are too many good rear drivers that can mop the floor with FWD cars in handling and ride at the XTS's price point.

The way I look at it is FWD is fine for cheap, common point A-to-point B transportation for the masses...not for luxury cars, not for performance cars...anything remotely serious or expensive needs to be RWD or AWD.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Not an apples to apples comparison. The S-Class isn't based on pedestrian version of itself for starters.

Have you ever been in an S-class cab?

[smk4565]

Actually this is the top Mercedes:

Factory built, about $1.4 million, can withstand 5 grenade blasts at once, exterior fire extinguisher, interior air supply, all the amenities.

[Intrepidation]

Was the S-Class based on a Fortwo or a PT Cruise? Then it wasn't just a blinged up version a of a mainstream vehicle.

Actually this is the top Mercedes:

Factory built, about $1.4 million, can withstand 5 grenade blasts at once, exterior fire extinguisher, interior air supply, all the amenities.

Price wise yeah, but the SLS AMG is the brand's flagship halo car.

[smk4565]

Not an apples to apples comparison. The S-Class isn't based on pedestrian version of itself for starters.

Have you ever been in an S-class cab?

No, but better to be in that than a Cadillac or Lincoln hearse.

[Robert Hall]

Not an apples to apples comparison. The S-Class isn't based on pedestrian version of itself for starters.

Have you ever been in an S-class cab?

I've been in E-class cabs..never seen an S-class cab.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just like the S-class is what ever other big sedan tries to be like. No one is chasing Cadillac, that is why I don't like the XTS, it is just a modern DTS, not a car that gives Cadillac any position of leadership.

The only position of leadership I care about is sales. Who cares who has the most HP and the most of anything if the car doesn't sell.

But look at how the MKS, DTS, S80, Acura RL sell. Those are the $40k + front drive sedans, all sales dogs. Lucerne near dead, Park Ave, Aurora, and Bonneville are dead, front drive Chrysler LH platform is dead. Big front drivers, especially luxury ones are fading. There are too many good rear drivers that can mop the floor with FWD cars in handling and ride at the XTS's price point.

MKS - not distinctive enough

DTS - older hardware older design

S80 - and in the end... it's still a Volvo

RL - What? you mean a Super De Lux AWD Accord TL Brougham with the plow prep package doesn't sell well?

Ride has nothing to do with the layout of the drive train.

Want some other sales dogs?

Infiniti M

Infiniti Q - (canceled)

Lexus GS (outsold by the STS... THE FREAKING STS.. some months)

Cadillac STS - (canceled)

Lincoln Town Car - (canceled)

Lincoln LS - (canceled)

I guess large RWD cars are fading.....

[balthazar]

smk4565 ~ >>"There was the Jag E-type which has become pretty legendary, but no one else has mounted a serious threat to the SL over it's history."<<

Oooooo; a poster!

Repeat: where was the luxury in a '50s or '60s SL convertible? Crank windows, no A/C, power steering optional, only 6 cylinders in a V8 world, '69 was down 60 HP over the original version. Mmmm- so 'gold-standard'.

smk4565 ~ >>"A Chevy truck with extra bling and chrome isn't a good flagship either."<<

it's not a 'Chevy truck', all the same platform vehicles are co-developed for each division.

>>"You don't want to be known for making a big gas guzzler, that is what did Hummer in."<<

Mor laffter:

s-class : 19 MPG

s-class hybrid : 19

S63 : 15

S65 : 12

known for making big gas guzzlers, right?

And there's a whole bunch other m-b models clocking in under 15 MPG. Guess m-b is goin' under!

Edited March 16, 2011 by balthazar

[Croc]

I see what you did there, but I've edited my post to clarify. I think you know what I meant, anyway.

The CL isn't a sedan ? {'No- it's a coupe'. Whatev; it's a non-SUV, non-roadster; I think you kno what I mean.}

Regardless- sedan vs. sport car vs. SUV- any one could be a 'flagship'.

mercedees claims it's the s-class, when frankly, it should be the SLS.

If they had done it right and made the maybach a mercedes, your hierarchy formula would work there.

But most people would agree that the old school 'biggest is most expensive' think went out a few decades ago.

It did at Cadillac ('76 Seville).

So only non-SUV, non-CUV, 4-doors can qualify in this example ? Gettin' pretty nitpicky...

If you want Cadillac's largest vehicle to be the flagship....

I got your flagship right here. Respected by NBA stars and mobsters alike.....

Reading comprehension is good:

There is no more STS in about 5 minutes.

You think people who are interested in a loaded up CTS are going to pass on it and go for the XTS instead?

Some buyers, yes. Fact is, the pint/quart/half-gallon/gallon sizing works well in the automotive world. You got a brand, and you have your size classes, and then you have content subclasses reflecting the position of the brand. Please, tell me one other brand that positions its largest sedan smack in the middle of its sedan pricing tiers. Please, it's a joke. This should be a flagship Buick, not a mid-level Cadillac.

See, the reason I'm sticking to sedans here is actually quite obvious: apples-to-apples comparisons. Coupes, wagons, roadsters, SUVs, trucks, and 2+2s are niche vehicles that do not compare well across classes. Last time I checked, the Cadillac Escalade EXT is in a class of its own as a luxury crossover pickup truck. Likewise, how many brands have 2+2 4-door coupes like the CLS? Exactly.

Everyone has sedans, and as I clearly said in the original post, the universal brand strategy is pint/quart/half-gallon/gallon. So until you have multiple comparable brands with complete pint/quart/half-gallon/gallon lineups for non-sedan vehicles, we can't really include those niche vehicles because it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

[Croc]

What is disappointing about it. I really like it and would potentially buy one if one of my other businesses takes off.

Well, since anyone who complains about the FWD shortcomings is ridiculed here, I'll leave that out. Also its dreadful FWD proportions. I'll also not start about how it confusing that Cadillac's largest car is not a flagship and seems more like a overpriced, rebadged Buick.

The single biggest disappointment to me is that its too narrow. The second biggest disappointment is that it everything we've seen about the XTS's design screams "would have been sweet in 2004".

The XTS is just a FWD generic, based on Epsilon II? Not remotely flagship material...but it will give Cadillac something to compete w/ the ES and MKS.

THANK YOU!!

Now my question is why in the hell Cadillac wants to compete with either of those two vehicles--that's Buick's territory. Lincoln has gone so far downmarket, that what? Cadillac needs to chase them with a token vehicle? It's just bull&#036;h&#33;.

The last decade, Cadillac has been transitioning itself to an actual competitor to Mercedes and BMW with sporting, well-appointed cars. They aren't quite to M-B or BMW levels of luxury, but they have the driveability down. This vehicle does nothing to advance Cadillac. It won't be as well-appointed as a Benz or a Beemer, and it won't out-drive anything from either of those two brands.

Ideally, Cadillac will be the third marque at the top of the luxury pyramid, alongside M-B and BMW. It will be the American, happy medium between BMW's emphasis on sport and M-B's emphasis on luxury. In other words, Cadillac will once again be the Standard of the World.

[Z-06]

Actually this is the top Mercedes:

Factory built, about $1.4 million, can withstand 5 grenade blasts at once, exterior fire extinguisher, interior air supply, all the amenities.

Then This is the top Cadillac.

All your qualities mentioned above plus more and more expensive than 1.4 million dollars and can run at 90 mph even with all tires flat..

MB = 0, Caddy = 1.

[Drew Dowdell]

.... and carries the nuke codes.

[Potluck]

who cares which wheels drive the car as long as it makes a profit for Cadillac and improves their reputation over the current car.

[NOS2006]

Side note: I've never seen such long post quotes in the history of this or any other forum... Unnecessary...

[z28luvr01]

So back to the XTS - is it on Epsilon II or "Super Epsilon II"? It definitely looks longer than the LaCrosse.

[Satty]

I noticed that too, seems like a fairly recent thing.

[Drew Dowdell]

Side note: I've never seen such long post quotes in the history of this or any other forum... Unnecessary...

I've cut nesting quotes down to 5 max.

[Lamar]

So back to the XTS - is it on Epsilon II or "Super Epsilon II"? It definitely looks longer than the LaCrosse.

I think I saw some numbers a while back that stated that although the body is definitely longer, the wheelbase is exactly the same. Take from that what you will.

[z28luvr01]

Weird - because even the doors on the XTS (or at least the rear doors) look bigger than the ones on the LaCrosse.

[Croc]

who cares which wheels drive the car as long as it makes a profit for Cadillac and improves their reputation over the current car.

I think you just answered your own question!

[z28luvr01]

FWIW:

Cadillac fans will be thrilled to hear that Ed Whitacre himself has instructed the brand to build a true, full-size flagship above both the CTS and the upcoming XTS. The car has not been clearly defined yet. The Zeta platform (Holden Commodore, Chevrolet Camaro, etc.) is heavy and dated, and therefore the flagship is more likely be built on a stretched version of the CTS’s Sigma platform. On the other side of the brand’s spectrum, the BMW 3-series–fighting ATS, based on a shortened Sigma platform called Alpha, is almost certain to come. If its styling is innovative and daring enough, it could become a real alternative to the well-established competition.

The XTS isn't Cadillac's flagship. Done. Period. Closed Quote. The End. Good Night. Drive Home Safely. Don't Forget to Stop by Our Gift Shop on the Way Out.

[ZL-1]

So back to the XTS - is it on Epsilon II or "Super Epsilon II"? It definitely looks longer than the LaCrosse.

Who comes up with these names??? I think I'd like to see... Mega Epsilon!!!!!!!!

[Croc]

FWIW:

Cadillac fans will be thrilled to hear that Ed Whitacre himself has instructed the brand to build a true, full-size flagship above both the CTS and the upcoming XTS. The car has not been clearly defined yet. The Zeta platform (Holden Commodore, Chevrolet Camaro, etc.) is heavy and dated, and therefore the flagship is more likely be built on a stretched version of the CTS's Sigma platform. On the other side of the brand's spectrum, the BMW 3-series–fighting ATS, based on a shortened Sigma platform called Alpha, is almost certain to come. If its styling is innovative and daring enough, it could become a real alternative to the well-established competition.

The XTS isn't Cadillac's flagship. Done. Period. Closed Quote. The End. Good Night. Drive Home Safely. Don't Forget to Stop by Our Gift Shop on the Way Out.

Of course it isn't. And that's precisely why it would make a better Buick flagship than a muddled Cadillac without a clearly defined place in the lineup.

[regfootball]

judging by the number one question / interest i have been getting at the auto show.....ALL wheel drive is at the top of customer lists. NO ONE has asked for rear drive. I doubt most folks know which end is driving the car half the time.

I think as long as caddy makes this car AWD no one is gonna give a behind about this as a DTS replacement.

The next CTS will carry the rwd torch for caddy along with the ATS. In time I am guessing a true S class competitor will come out.

Exactly as Drew said...the iNfiniti Q's, M's, GS lexus, not exactly lighting up the world on the sales charts.

There is a lot of really old folks out there that want something to replace their DTS with.

[Chris_Doane]

So back to the XTS - is it on Epsilon II or "Super Epsilon II"? It definitely looks longer than the LaCrosse.

LWB Epsilon II

[Lamar]

I thought about this post earlier...

A person willing to spend an extra $5,000 to "save the planet" isn't looking to buy a 17 foot long Cadillac.

And yet every LS600hL is spoken for before they get a chance to hit lots... at $45K more than the LS460... and at 203.9 inches, which is a shade under 17 feet.

This is what sheeple with money buy.

[hyperv6]

who cares which wheels drive the car as long as it makes a profit for Cadillac and improves their reputation over the current car.

Stop making sense you will make someone mad. Pss. don't even bring up it has B pillars and is not a hard top. That sets some really off.

You have the right Idea. The car is to make money and fill a segment that GM has identified. Not everyone wants a CTS or even the new ATS. My Inlaws were several time Town Car owners and now a DTS owner. I hate the DTS but they and many other do like the car. This is not the flagship car that is expected to fill the needs of many that want RWD, V8 and more of everything else.

This will not be Cadillac's top seller but it will turn in many sales and do a lot of limo/Livery service work in the large cities. Lincoln has abandon this segment with the loss of the Town Car. Just in NY City alone I would hate to count up all the Livery cars I see there when I am in town. I also see this as a big player in Funneral home service work too. I am sure we will see some Hearses and other body conversions on this one too. I kind of think this as a modern Fleetwood Sedan. Comfort Quiet and a nice ride. That is all some expect in this class of car and I expect it will have that and even more. I think the TT engine will suprise some at what it will be able to do.

Edited March 16, 2011 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

It's effectively replacing both the STS and the DTS in the lineup. Outselling those two shouldn't be terribly hard.

Edit: I don't see it doing much service as a custom body vehicle. It may replace some Town Car Sedans, but that's about it.

[smk4565]

The XTS isn't Cadillac's flagship. Done. Period. Closed Quote. The End. Good Night. Drive Home Safely. Don't Forget to Stop by Our Gift Shop on the Way Out.

Than what is? XTS is the largest and most expensive Cadillac sedan.

Cadillac also has no sports car or convertible. Cadillac is just like Lincoln and Acura, stuck trying to build vehicles off the mainstream platforms with a whole lot of the corporate V6.

[smk4565]

judging by the number one question / interest i have been getting at the auto show.....ALL wheel drive is at the top of customer lists. NO ONE has asked for rear drive. I doubt most folks know which end is driving the car half the time.

I think as long as caddy makes this car AWD no one is gonna give a behind about this as a DTS replacement.

The next CTS will carry the rwd torch for caddy along with the ATS. In time I am guessing a true S class competitor will come out.

Exactly as Drew said...the iNfiniti Q's, M's, GS lexus, not exactly lighting up the world on the sales charts.

There is a lot of really old folks out there that want something to replace their DTS with.

So for Cadillac to improve it's image, the plan is to get people that were 68 when they bought a DTS that are now 72 to trade in on an XTS. Nice.

The Lexus GS is bland and dated, and Lexus also suffers from having a lot of old buyers and mostly being a $33-43k price, FWD luxury brand. When you do that, you don't have the performance credibility to go against a 5-series. The rear drive Lincolns sold alright in the early 2000s until they got dated and ignored, and Lincoln has seen a steady sales decline in the past couple years with the FWD MKS and MKZ. And no front driver over $40k is lighting up the sales chart, yet the 5-series and E-class still are.

[hyperv6]

It's effectively replacing both the STS and the DTS in the lineup. Outselling those two shouldn't be terribly hard.

Edit: I don't see it doing much service as a custom body vehicle. It may replace some Town Car Sedans, but that's about it.

There are a couple service car companies here in Ohio and they have been working hard to adapt many unconventional cars to their needs. I saw a FWD Lincoln Hearse the other day. Bit Odd.

Also there is a large market for long limos that is wide open with the loss of the Town Car. Not everyone wants a SUV Limo. I see this car picking up the Town car, STS and DTS buyers along with some Lexus. There are enough old owners of all three of the old cars to show a profit.

I would still not underestimate this car. While it is not a car for everyone it will be a much better car than some expect.

Edited March 17, 2011 by hyperv6

[Croc]

Guys, the luxury market isn't the volume market. Sales numbers aren't at all what the game is about--profits are. If anything, Mercedes-Benz's push for volume in the mid-late 90s has been a large part of their fall as king of the US luxury market because they are too attainable. It's just like Cadillac in the late-70s and early 80s--what caused the brand's 30-year slide from greatness? The promotion of a Chevy guy to head Cadillac with the promise of volume. This led to cost-cutting and short-term gains, but in the long term the prestige was gone. Cadillacs weren't aspirational--they became common. It's a delicate balance, and it's similar to why I'm shaking my head at VW for their recent decision to go for volume by sacrificing on some measures of quality. No one seems to learn from history.

[Justin Bimmer]

I saw an Escalade hearse today. Speaking of strange hearses.

[Lamar]

Guys, the luxury market isn't the volume market. Sales numbers aren't at all what the game is about--profits are. If anything, Mercedes-Benz's push for volume in the mid-late 90s has been a large part of their fall as king of the US luxury market because they are too attainable. It's just like Cadillac in the late-70s and early 80s--what caused the brand's 30-year slide from greatness? The promotion of a Chevy guy to head Cadillac with the promise of volume. This led to cost-cutting and short-term gains, but in the long term the prestige was gone. Cadillacs weren't aspirational--they became common. It's a delicate balance, and it's similar to why I'm shaking my head at VW for their recent decision to go for volume by sacrificing on some measures of quality. No one seems to learn from history.

This right here.

Sadly enough, there are very few luxury marques that aren't seemingly chasing volume these days. BMW, Merc, Lexus, even Porsche. All entering every segment they can in order to chase volume.

[regfootball]

Guys, the luxury market isn't the volume market. Sales numbers aren't at all what the game is about--profits are. If anything, Mercedes-Benz's push for volume in the mid-late 90s has been a large part of their fall as king of the US luxury market because they are too attainable. It's just like Cadillac in the late-70s and early 80s--what caused the brand's 30-year slide from greatness? The promotion of a Chevy guy to head Cadillac with the promise of volume. This led to cost-cutting and short-term gains, but in the long term the prestige was gone. Cadillacs weren't aspirational--they became common. It's a delicate balance, and it's similar to why I'm shaking my head at VW for their recent decision to go for volume by sacrificing on some measures of quality. No one seems to learn from history.

VW's problem was unique. projections were that only 5-10 carmakers would survive globally as superpowers. they knew that one or two of the US makers would stay on that list. They knew the Japanese with a long term quality history would likely be represented with Nissan and Toyota at a minimum. They knew Hyundai would be on there, and there will be Chinese to fear. In it's own country, VW can't compete on luxury or even quality within its own borders, while overbuilding in the sense that they cannot grab for higher prices on the world scale. If VW was to survive, it has to be as a volume automaker globally. Which means they by neccessity had to downgrade their product to keep their profits. If they kept building the higher price stuff, there is still no belief they could match the Japanese on reliability, so eventually they would lose to Japan on both price and quality.

So essentially VW by default has to dumb itself down some and become a commodity. VW has to be big to remain relevant globally, because they do not have the ability to survive as a smaller volume maker.

[Robert Hall]

VW's problem was unique. projections were that only 5-10 carmakers would survive globally as superpowers. they knew that one or two of the US makers would stay on that list. They knew the Japanese with a long term quality history would likely be represented with Nissan and Toyota at a minimum. They knew Hyundai would be on there, and there will be Chinese to fear. In it's own country, VW can't compete on luxury or even quality within its own borders, while overbuilding in the sense that they cannot grab for higher prices on the world scale. If VW was to survive, it has to be as a volume automaker globally. Which means they by neccessity had to downgrade their product to keep their profits. If they kept building the higher price stuff, there is still no belief they could match the Japanese on reliability, so eventually they would lose to Japan on both price and quality.

So essentially VW by default has to dumb itself down some and become a commodity. VW has to be big to remain relevant globally, because they do not have the ability to survive as a smaller volume maker.

Part of the problem is VW is a middle brand in Europe like Opel, they have Seat and Skoda for the low end..they don't have that positioning in the US. Then they have the arrangement w/ Suzuki that seems to be going nowhere...

[z28luvr01]

The brands that aren't chasing volume are the ones that charge six figures for every car they sell. At those prices they can afford to sell in small volumes. Everyone else needs some sort of "volume car" to keep the lights on for the niche stuff. Caddy's answer to that question is apparently the XTS (and the SRX). I'll agree that a car configured like the XTS would be a better fit over at Buick, slotted above the LaCrosse, but I have softened on it for a couple of reasons:

1) It's not Caddy's flagship, no matter how you define flagship - be it "most expensive vehicle", "biggest vehicle", or "best performing vehicle. The XTS is none of those. At worst, it's a Fritz car that will pave the way for a true rear drive flagship. I wouldn't be surprised if the EpII XTS is a one-and-done car, but don't quote me on that.

2) It actually appears like it's going to be a nice looking car. It's not like they grafted A&S cues on a generic design, a la the DTS. It's a ground-up A&S car. It won't look completely out of place in the Cadillac showroom.

Give the car a chance. If I were GM I wouldn't try pitting it against a 5, 7, E, or S, but I think they could steal more than a few Audi/VW/Volvo buyers with it.

[Robert Hall]

So back to the XTS - is it on Epsilon II or "Super Epsilon II"? It definitely looks longer than the LaCrosse.

I think I saw some numbers a while back that stated that although the body is definitely longer, the wheelbase is exactly the same. Take from that what you will.

That would be wierd, because the LaCrosse has shorter wheelbase than the CTS...and the LaCrosse is supposed to be the LWB Epsy Dos..

[Justin Bimmer]

Although Z28, one could argue that Porsche is starting to chase volume with the cars it is putting out now. In fact, they are selling more cars than Suzuki and Mitsubishi in the United States.

[z28luvr01]

Actually, I was referring to Bentley, RR, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Porsche started chasing volume the day someone thought the Boxster was a good idea.

[Lamar]

That would be wierd, because the LaCrosse has shorter wheelbase than the CTS...and the LaCrosse is supposed to be the LWB Epsy Dos..

It's odd, because it's kinda apples-and-oranges to compare wheelbases between FWD and RWD platforms. Case in point: the Infiniti G has only a slightly shorter wheelbase than the Ford Taurus (112.2" versus 112.9"). Yet no one would peg those cars as close in size.

[regfootball]

VW's problem was unique. projections were that only 5-10 carmakers would survive globally as superpowers. they knew that one or two of the US makers would stay on that list. They knew the Japanese with a long term quality history would likely be represented with Nissan and Toyota at a minimum. They knew Hyundai would be on there, and there will be Chinese to fear. In it's own country, VW can't compete on luxury or even quality within its own borders, while overbuilding in the sense that they cannot grab for higher prices on the world scale. If VW was to survive, it has to be as a volume automaker globally. Which means they by neccessity had to downgrade their product to keep their profits. If they kept building the higher price stuff, there is still no belief they could match the Japanese on reliability, so eventually they would lose to Japan on both price and quality.

So essentially VW by default has to dumb itself down some and become a commodity. VW has to be big to remain relevant globally, because they do not have the ability to survive as a smaller volume maker.

Part of the problem is VW is a middle brand in Europe like Opel, they have Seat and Skoda for the low end..they don't have that positioning in the US. Then they have the arrangement w/ Suzuki that seems to be going nowhere...

not sure why they would have done that. How else would you expect stubborn Germans and self righteous Japanese to play?

Japan needs to purge about 5 brands. I would like to see Toyota gone, and I wouldn't miss Mazda. Subaru is borderline. Nissan seems the most successful in the world arena moving forward. Honda is Honda, but they need to evolve. I all know everyone thinks Mits and Suz should be gone anyways. Suzuki sells most of its metal in India though. 2 million cars a year is nothing to sneeze at.

[Drew Dowdell]

4 model Subaru is outselling 10 model VW in the US and you think they're borderline?