XTS Spy Shots

[daves87rs]

Looks good from what I can see.

[pow]

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Edited March 13, 2011 by pow

[Justin Bimmer]

This car is going to well. The Lacrosse is selling well and is taking customers away from other companies. Who cares what wheels push or pull the car. It is going to be stunning. People are going to want this car.

[ocnblu]

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Perhaps I am cynical, but I see Benz' move as a way to force people into the hybrid as a PR move. I wonder how it is selling in comparison to the more genuine, uplevel models.

[Drew Dowdell]

Electric gives you maximum torque at zero RPM. It's that kind of thrust that will make hybrids more viable in future and electrics the future. It's only a matter of time.... and I say that entirely from my experience in electric vehicle 1.0 Volt.

I have only drive a few of these newer system so I am not up on the latest like on the new LaCrosse. I do find the systems that shut off at lights a little annoying [just my take]. But as time rolls on I think they will make and find systems that will work well and most people will never know they are there. It is kind of like the 8-6-4 Cadillac. It was a mess but today the same idea works and you really can't tell what it is doing. I have many miles with the Chevy truck and Camaro with this system.

I think we will see a lot of things tried by a despereate industry. If gas remains high buyers will also be more accpeting.

The real issues is as things get even more complicated how we we repair these cars and afford to keep them running. The day is coming there will be few cars over 10 years old on the road.

I don't expect the Lacrosse to be observably quicker with the addition of eAssist. It's might have a little better around town feel and that's about it. 15 hp simply isn't enough to make that big a difference.

It's cars like the Volt which have the equivalent to a 200+ horsepower gasoline motor with ALL of their torque at low RPM that will be the game changers. In Sport mode, the Volt has a surprising surge of power when you step on the potentiometer.

There was a review out there of the Tesla Roadster when they had an Audi R8 follow along. The Tesla was able to walk away from the R8 like it was standing still.

The Mini-Cooper with electric motors built into the wheel assembly had close to 600 HP.... so... better than CTS-V power in something the size and weight of a Cooper. Even if the battery added another 300 lbs, you're still about 900lbs less than a V-series.

My other reasoning is this. Remember, I work for the 5th largest energy supplier in North America. Most of our clients are big box stores. Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

This kind of performance from version 1.0 vehicles really impresses me. It's for this reason that I see electric vehicles as the future.

[hyperv6]

Electric gives you maximum torque at zero RPM. It's that kind of thrust that will make hybrids more viable in future and electrics the future. It's only a matter of time.... and I say that entirely from my experience in electric vehicle 1.0 Volt.

I have only drive a few of these newer system so I am not up on the latest like on the new LaCrosse. I do find the systems that shut off at lights a little annoying [just my take]. But as time rolls on I think they will make and find systems that will work well and most people will never know they are there. It is kind of like the 8-6-4 Cadillac. It was a mess but today the same idea works and you really can't tell what it is doing. I have many miles with the Chevy truck and Camaro with this system.

I think we will see a lot of things tried by a despereate industry. If gas remains high buyers will also be more accpeting.

The real issues is as things get even more complicated how we we repair these cars and afford to keep them running. The day is coming there will be few cars over 10 years old on the road.

I don't expect the Lacrosse to be observably quicker with the addition of eAssist. It's might have a little better around town feel and that's about it. 15 hp simply isn't enough to make that big a difference.

It's cars like the Volt which have the equivalent to a 200+ horsepower gasoline motor with ALL of their torque at low RPM that will be the game changers. In Sport mode, the Volt has a surprising surge of power when you step on the potentiometer.

There was a review out there of the Tesla Roadster when they had an Audi R8 follow along. The Tesla was able to walk away from the R8 like it was standing still.

The Mini-Cooper with electric motors built into the wheel assembly had close to 600 HP.... so... better than CTS-V power in something the size and weight of a Cooper. Even if the battery added another 300 lbs, you're still about 900lbs less than a V-series.

My other reasoning is this. Remember, I work for the 5th largest energy supplier in North America. Most of our clients are big box stores. Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

This kind of performance from version 1.0 vehicles really impresses me. It's for this reason that I see electric vehicles as the future.

I would never discount this system as if it works it could suprise many people.

Heck F1 even used the Kers system before some of the crews were getting knocked on their butts from a jolt.

Even the Hydrogen Cell Nox I drove would spin the tires and run as well as a gas power. Electric does have it's merits. Now if they can solve the charging issues for batteries and capacity.

[smk4565]

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Mercedes makes hybrids and diesels partly because Europe is full of environmentalists and gas is $6-8 a gallon. Plus governments, which are also full of greenies (especially European ones) buy the S-class. And it is a way to test hybrid technology on the high priced car before price comes down to fit it to a C-class.

I would also imagine the S400 hybrid is a small percentage of American S-class sales, and the LS600h and Escalade hybrid are probably even a lower percentage than that. Because people that are worried about saving the planet and being economical and efficient aren't buying a 5,000 lb full size car or SUV. For that reason I think an XTS hybrid would be a slow seller. A person willing to spend an extra $5,000 to "save the planet" isn't looking to buy a 17 foot long Cadillac.

[pow]

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Perhaps I am cynical, but I see Benz' move as a way to force people into the hybrid as a PR move. I wonder how it is selling in comparison to the more genuine, uplevel models.

Since when was good PR a bad thing? GM needs all the help it can get. The reputation, integrity, service, and image of a company is as important as the car itself for strong sales.

If Cadillac can be viewed as a "smart" brand as much as it's a flashy and powerful one, that will introduce a wider audience of customers to the brand.

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Mercedes makes hybrids and diesels partly because Europe is full of environmentalists and gas is $6-8 a gallon. Plus governments, which are also full of greenies (especially European ones) buy the S-class. And it is a way to test hybrid technology on the high priced car before price comes down to fit it to a C-class.

I would also imagine the S400 hybrid is a small percentage of American S-class sales, and the LS600h and Escalade hybrid are probably even a lower percentage than that. Because people that are worried about saving the planet and being economical and efficient aren't buying a 5,000 lb full size car or SUV. For that reason I think an XTS hybrid would be a slow seller. A person willing to spend an extra $5,000 to "save the planet" isn't looking to buy a 17 foot long Cadillac.

Well, gas prices are only going to increase as oil becomes harder and harder to find and more expensive to refine. Might as well prepare for the future. What a novel idea.

Edited March 13, 2011 by pow

[hyperv6]

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Perhaps I am cynical, but I see Benz' move as a way to force people into the hybrid as a PR move. I wonder how it is selling in comparison to the more genuine, uplevel models.

Since when was good PR a bad thing? GM needs all the help it can get. The reputation, integrity, service, and image of a company is as important as the car itself for strong sales.

If Cadillac can be viewed as a "smart" brand as much as it's a flashy and powerful one, that will introduce a wider audience of customers to the brand.

A hybrid powertrain adds a level of prestige and it gives Cadillac a competitive advantage to brag about. That's why Mercedes in the US chose to make the S400 HYBRID (they're the ones who decided to make it all caps, not me...) the base powertrain rather than a lowly V6. In country club circles, that's important: a S350 says, "I'm too cheap or poor to buy the S550", but a S400 HYBRID says, "I made a conscious decision to pollute less; it just so happens the hybrid car costs less."

Mercedes makes hybrids and diesels partly because Europe is full of environmentalists and gas is $6-8 a gallon. Plus governments, which are also full of greenies (especially European ones) buy the S-class. And it is a way to test hybrid technology on the high priced car before price comes down to fit it to a C-class.

I would also imagine the S400 hybrid is a small percentage of American S-class sales, and the LS600h and Escalade hybrid are probably even a lower percentage than that. Because people that are worried about saving the planet and being economical and efficient aren't buying a 5,000 lb full size car or SUV. For that reason I think an XTS hybrid would be a slow seller. A person willing to spend an extra $5,000 to "save the planet" isn't looking to buy a 17 foot long Cadillac.

Well, gas prices are only going to increase as oil becomes harder and harder to find and more expensive to refine. Might as well prepare for the future. What a novel idea.

People for years bought Benz because they considered them more advanced. They for the most were not any more advanced than what GM could do, They just offered more expensive cars they couls more easily show case them in. Today there is no reason Cadillac can not do the same, They just need to make sure it all works and works well. They can not afford a failure of advanced technology. People are just less forgiving of GM.

Oil will not become harder to find as we know where a lot of it is but are not being permited to drill. The real issues are things like the protest in the middle east and who will control what supplies. Also the next 4-5 years we are at risk of China's demand out stripping suppies. If that happens prices will skyrocket. Oil will go to the highest bidder.

[ocnblu]

You've gotta know our government is holding our domestic oil reserves numbers VERY close to the vest.

[balthazar]

Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

Is it known, will it depend, or is it only guesses at this point if these retailers will charge the user to charge their electric car?

[Croc]

We have no idea if luxury buyers care about hybrids because very few options exist. The Lexus was a joke--that hybrid was only for providing extra power, not actually improving fuel economy.

[smk4565]

Well, gas prices are only going to increase as oil becomes harder and harder to find and more expensive to refine. Might as well prepare for the future. What a novel idea.

Right, so make an ATS model that gets 40 mpg, you can get 36 mpg form the 3-series, 42 mpg from an Audi A3, 41 mpg from a Lincoln MKZ. The people willing to pay for a green are are also the type that would buy small or perhaps midsize, rather than full size. The XTS is basically a V6 DTS on a newer platform, not exactly answer to high gas prices. But in 10 years probably most V6s will have some sort light hybrid system, so they might as well offer it. But I don't expect being a hybrid is what will draw people to the XTS, most prospective buyers probably won't even care. I mean these are the same people that were buying the 17 mpg Town Car built on an 80s platform up til last year.

[vonVeezelsnider]

You've gotta know our government is holding our domestic oil reserves numbers VERY close to the vest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALCTOs2zakc

Come 'n get it!

[Justin Bimmer]

The whole v6 v8 thing is passe. The 3.6 is more powerful than the northstar it is replacing.

[ocnblu]

Yeahbut, Northstar is old-school as far as V8 horsepower is concerned.

[smk4565]

The whole v6 v8 thing is passe. The 3.6 is more powerful than the northstar it is replacing.

Yet not as powerful as the 429 hp V8 Hyundai will be selling this summer. Or as powerful as the 400+ hp V8s Infiniti, BMW and Benz have.

[SAmadei]

This kind of performance from version 1.0 vehicles really impresses me. It's for this reason that I see electric vehicles as the future.

Version 3.0 vehicles, more like it. To call these version 1.0 sell the 1900's electrics and EV-1 short. They were viable vehicles at the time.

Also calling these version 1.0 implies version 2.0 will be twice as good. I want to know where people think the next huge improvements in electric/hybrid vehicles is going to come from. Its not like battery and motor tech has been stagnant for the past 100 years... they are both mature technologies... and barring a major scientific breakthrough, they are limited by the rules of physics. It won't surprise me if a decade from now, our electric cars and hybrids are barely 10% better than they are today, because battery and motor tech is not coming along at the speed of computers and cell phones, like some people here are expecting.

I feel that the biggest breakthroughs will come in slight weight savings... but increasing crash protection will eat that right up. Cost will also go down, but you can't double the battery pack to increase the power without affecting the weight... so cost savings will likely only help the bottom line of electric/hybrid cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

Is it known, will it depend, or is it only guesses at this point if these retailers will charge the user to charge their electric car?

Initially, the charge will be complimentary up to a certain amount of time charging. Later they will move to a "Free with $X.XX purchase" or a nominal KwH charge, probably in the $0.35to $0.75 per hour range. Profitable for the retailer and convenient for the customer (especially if those are "Quick Charge" hours)

[SAmadei]

Initially, the charge will be complimentary up to a certain amount of time charging. Later they will move to a "Free with $X.XX purchase" or a nominal KwH charge, probably in the $0.35to $0.75 per hour range. Profitable for the retailer and convenient for the customer (especially if those are "Quick Charge" hours)

And who is paying for this infrastructure? Many of the shopping centers I see are struggling to stay in business.

[Justin Bimmer]

Who needs all that power in a car? Compromise on power and economy would be ideal for me.

[Drew Dowdell]

This kind of performance from version 1.0 vehicles really impresses me. It's for this reason that I see electric vehicles as the future.

Version 3.0 vehicles, more like it. To call these version 1.0 sell the 1900's electrics and EV-1 short. They were viable vehicles at the time.

Also calling these version 1.0 implies version 2.0 will be twice as good. I want to know where people think the next huge improvements in electric/hybrid vehicles is going to come from. Its not like battery and motor tech has been stagnant for the past 100 years... they are both mature technologies... and barring a major scientific breakthrough, they are limited by the rules of physics. It won't surprise me if a decade from now, our electric cars and hybrids are barely 10% better than they are today, because battery and motor tech is not coming along at the speed of computers and cell phones, like some people here are expecting.

I feel that the biggest breakthroughs will come in slight weight savings... but increasing crash protection will eat that right up. Cost will also go down, but you can't double the battery pack to increase the power without affecting the weight... so cost savings will likely only help the bottom line of electric/hybrid cars.

The 1900s electrics had a top speed of about 35 mph. They were discontinued when gasoline vastly out paced them. They were the Laser Disk of electric cars, quickly superseded and forgotten about.

The EV-1 had a decent range, but still relied on older battery technology. Limited to being a two seater, they also were only sold in limited numbers to a limited market. They were the Sony Mini-disk of electric cars, having a few diehard fans but due to cost and limited distribution, never able to catch on.

The Volt, Leaf, and coming Focus electric have the possibility of being the VHS of electric cars, being the first to gain widespread acceptance to the mainstream public. These are the initial entries that will dictate the format for years to come. Out of these three the charging infrastructure will develop, standards for pedestrian safety and charging apparatus will form, and all future entries in the market will be judged against them.

Initially, the charge will be complimentary up to a certain amount of time charging. Later they will move to a "Free with $X.XX purchase" or a nominal KwH charge, probably in the $0.35to $0.75 per hour range. Profitable for the retailer and convenient for the customer (especially if those are "Quick Charge" hours)

And who is paying for this infrastructure? Many of the shopping centers I see are struggling to stay in business.

The retailers.

The company I work for is in direct contact with multiple retailers on that front.

[Robert Hall]

The whole v6 v8 thing is passe. The 3.6 is more powerful than the northstar it is replacing.

Yet not as powerful as the 429 hp V8 Hyundai will be selling this summer. Or as powerful as the 400+ hp V8s Infiniti, BMW and Benz have.

Different niche..those are serious RWD models, the XTS will compete w/ the ES and MKS.

[smk4565]

Who needs all that power in a car? Compromise on power and economy would be ideal for me.

Compromise is for Chevy, this is a Cadillac, there should be no compromise (and FWD is a compromise). I am in favor of balance though, such as Mercedes offering a 30 mpg S350 Bluetec and a 610 hp S65 AMG off the same line.

[smk4565]

The whole v6 v8 thing is passe. The 3.6 is more powerful than the northstar it is replacing.

Yet not as powerful as the 429 hp V8 Hyundai will be selling this summer. Or as powerful as the 400+ hp V8s Infiniti, BMW and Benz have.

Different niche..those are serious RWD models, the XTS will compete w/ the ES and MKS.

But a Lexus ES350 is the size and price of a CTS, the XTS is likely 12-14 inches longer, and at least 500 lbs heavier. This car will be squarely lined up against the MKS but at perhaps $10,000 more. And why isn't the big Cadillac a serious RWD model? Cadillac is supposed to compete against the world's best, yet they choose to go after the base model Lexus, and a Lincoln Taurus. This is why the brand has no clear identity. And wasn't the LaCrosse supposed to compete with the ES350? Brand overlap all over again.

Edited March 14, 2011 by smk4565

[Justin Bimmer]

See, for me, I want a compromise in power and economy, but want everything else to be top of the line. That's what this car is.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS will be priced well above the ES base price.

[ocnblu]

How is Best Buy going to stop the one or two people a year who use the charging stations from plugging in and walking next door to the China Buffet?

[SAmadei]

The 1900s electrics had a top speed of about 35 mph. They were discontinued when gasoline vastly out paced them. They were the Laser Disk of electric cars, quickly superseded and forgotten about.

Quickly forgotten about? Electrics were a serious player for 20 years! In 1899 an electric car held the land speed record at 65mph.

It wasn't until the 1920s that combustion engines finally took the lead for good.

And unlike our Apollo program, the technology was not quickly forgotten. It continued to be developed and migrated into industrial use... trolleys, trains, bulldozers, buses, etc.

The EV-1 had a decent range, but still relied on older battery technology. Limited to being a two seater, they also were only sold in limited numbers to a limited market. They were the Sony Mini-disk of electric cars, having a few diehard fans but due to cost and limited distribution, never able to catch on.

They were not sold, they were leased. In any case, they used modern lead acid batteries, modern motors and regenerative braking. Clearly a version 2.0.

Never caught on? Well, they certainly were not for everyone... but GM really didn't want to sell them in the first place. Once CARB backed down from its ZEV requirements, GM had no interest in leasing these.

GEM has had no problem selling 40K of their LSVs... and they are handicapped with a 35 mph speed limiter by law.

The Volt, Leaf, and coming Focus electric have the possibility of being the VHS of electric cars, being the first to gain widespread acceptance to the mainstream public. These are the initial entries that will dictate the format for years to come. Out of these three the charging infrastructure will develop, standards for pedestrian safety and charging apparatus will form, and all future entries in the market will be judged against them.

Format? You're comparison of electric vehicles to storage media formats is apples to oranges. Assuming you could get a hold of a running EV-1, you can put a 1906 Baker Electric, 1997 EV-1 and a 2011 Volt on the road and drive them side by side on the same piece of tarmac, with the same type people and the same electric... they all have a storage technology connected to some sort of motor via a control system.

Keep in mind, I am all for what the Volt is and can be, even though its current form (4 door sedan) is not my cup of tea. However, its based on technology that is NOT going to follow Moore's Law... and talking "version 1.0" is setting it up for unrealistic future expectations.

The public is VERY fickle. One bad batch of batteries could leave any/all of the new electrics as a modern day GM diesel.

And all these dreamy infrastructure upgrades are vapor until it happens. Just like those nonexistent Ethanol stations in the Northeast.

[hyperv6]

Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

Is it known, will it depend, or is it only guesses at this point if these retailers will charge the user to charge their electric car?

I have seen the idea where many places will have a card swipe to charge the owner. I could see it being done like on a Best Buys card etc. They could offer reduced rates and even free charges on slow days to bring buyers in. I suspect we will see many marketing plans.

They may even make people go in side to activate the charge just to get them in the door. The main goal of any store is to get you in.

I really don't think many of these stations will be free. Companies just can't afford to do that long term.

Edited March 14, 2011 by hyperv6

[NOS2006]

Interior looks to be very, very nice.

Oh, it is...

[Drew Dowdell]

The 1900s electrics had a top speed of about 35 mph. They were discontinued when gasoline vastly out paced them. They were the Laser Disk of electric cars, quickly superseded and forgotten about.

Quickly forgotten about? Electrics were a serious player for 20 years! In 1899 an electric car held the land speed record at 65mph.

It wasn't until the 1920s that combustion engines finally took the lead for good.

And unlike our Apollo program, the technology was not quickly forgotten. It continued to be developed and migrated into industrial use... trolleys, trains, bulldozers, buses, etc.

The EV-1 had a decent range, but still relied on older battery technology. Limited to being a two seater, they also were only sold in limited numbers to a limited market. They were the Sony Mini-disk of electric cars, having a few diehard fans but due to cost and limited distribution, never able to catch on.

They were not sold, they were leased. In any case, they used modern lead acid batteries, modern motors and regenerative braking. Clearly a version 2.0.

Never caught on? Well, they certainly were not for everyone... but GM really didn't want to sell them in the first place. Once CARB backed down from its ZEV requirements, GM had no interest in leasing these.

GEM has had no problem selling 40K of their LSVs... and they are handicapped with a 35 mph speed limiter by law.

The Volt, Leaf, and coming Focus electric have the possibility of being the VHS of electric cars, being the first to gain widespread acceptance to the mainstream public. These are the initial entries that will dictate the format for years to come. Out of these three the charging infrastructure will develop, standards for pedestrian safety and charging apparatus will form, and all future entries in the market will be judged against them.

Format? You're comparison of electric vehicles to storage media formats is apples to oranges. Assuming you could get a hold of a running EV-1, you can put a 1906 Baker Electric, 1997 EV-1 and a 2011 Volt on the road and drive them side by side on the same piece of tarmac, with the same type people and the same electric... they all have a storage technology connected to some sort of motor via a control system.

Keep in mind, I am all for what the Volt is and can be, even though its current form (4 door sedan) is not my cup of tea. However, its based on technology that is NOT going to follow Moore's Law... and talking "version 1.0" is setting it up for unrealistic future expectations.

The public is VERY fickle. One bad batch of batteries could leave any/all of the new electrics as a modern day GM diesel.

And all these dreamy infrastructure upgrades are vapor until it happens. Just like those nonexistent Ethanol stations in the Northeast.

I work the one of the companies providing these infrastructure upgrades. We're a publicly traded company so there are limits to what I can say, but I'll put it this way: Among the healthy retailers out there of all stripes, they are racing against each other to get this hardware in place. It's a relatively modest investment for them yet the improvements in public image a large. Think of it this way, if Home Depot suddenly has good "green" PR and a way to lure a certain subset of customers away from Lowes for around $5,000 per install, that's a very minimal investment for them and Lowes will probably react in kind.

The technology doesn't need to follow Moores law (which is for processor speed anyway). The Detroit Electric and such where "Proof of Concept", the EV-1 was Beta version 0.5 and only released to select test users (yes I know it was only leased, but GM had criteria other than your financial that you had to pass before you'd get one).

But lets be honest here... due to the limitations of battery technology... not a lot of work has gone into this drive train setup in the pass 100 years compared to the gasoline engine.

How is Best Buy going to stop the one or two people a year who use the charging stations from plugging in and walking next door to the China Buffet?

It's based on smart card technology and you'd do the equivalent of "validating your parking". If you didn't make a purchase in the retailer, you are charged for your charge.

Some big box stores have already announced charging stations for electric vehicles. (Home Depot, Best Buy) And there are others coming as well.

The Volt and Tesla can recharge from a 220v outlet in 4 hours. The Leaf can get to 80% charge in 30 minutes at a "Quick Charge" station.

Who here can't see people blowing 1 or 2 hours in a shopping center?

Is it known, will it depend, or is it only guesses at this point if these retailers will charge the user to charge their electric car?

I have seen the idea where many places will have a card swipe to charge the owner. I could see it being done like on a Best Buys card etc. They could offer reduced rates and even free charges on slow days to bring buyers in. I suspect we will see many marketing plans.

They may even make people go in side to activate the charge just to get them in the door. The main goal of any store is to get you in.

I really don't think many of these stations will be free. Companies just can't afford to do that long term.

They will be free or free with purchase initially. Once it becomes more main stream, it will be monetized.

[SAmadei]

The technology doesn't need to follow Moores law (which is for processor speed anyway). The Detroit Electric and such where "Proof of Concept", the EV-1 was Beta version 0.5 and only released to select test users (yes I know it was only leased, but GM had criteria other than your financial that you had to pass before you'd get one).

"Proof of Concept" sold comparably with internal combustion for over decade. Thats success, not a proof of concept.

I'm not suggesting the technology needs to follow Moore's law... because I already know it can't come close... but you are implicitly suggesting with this inaccurate "version 1.0" label that "version 2.0" will be like a hardware or software upgrade. Its not. Windows 2.0 was considerably better than Windows 1.0. IPad 2 trounces IPad 1. Unless Volt 2.0 comes out with a Mr. Fusion, it will be lucky if it is 20% better (drivetrain only, not interior fabrics and cupholders) than Volt 1.0. Its about managing expectations.

Volt 1.0 is great so far. Its much more car than most people ever need, as demonstrated by the Tata Nano.

But lets be honest here... due to the limitations of battery technology... not a lot of work has gone into this drive train setup in the pass 100 years compared to the gasoline engine.

I disagree because there are batteries everywhere, and the same technology can be scaled up or down to run the smallest cell phone or a freight train. The benefits of power to weight, cell life, reliability, energy loss, cost affect all battery applications. Just because the battery is hooked up to a Prius, you can't ignore the 150 years of research it took to get to this point. This research has been slow in coming because the laws of physics simply will only allow a certain amount of energy to be held in a particular structure. And continued battery development is likely to continue to be slow... as Li Ion batteries have energy densities just shy of munitions now.

This is in contrast to the internal combustion engine, which appears to have gotten so much R&D now because it was in the public's eye and because it simply started off as such as weak and wasteful invention in the first place. Many of GM's internal combustion engines saw little or no improvements for years, except when they needed to figure out how to make them cheaper.

The same goes for electric motors as goes for batteries. They have been as close to 100% efficiency as they are going to get.

Go read some of the pages on DIY electric cars. The only thing keeping these people from making passable electric cars in their garages is the cost of the Li Ion battery packs. Cripes, even Jesse James and Orange County Choppers have both built EVs.

Also, I'm not suggesting that EVs need more battery tech to go faster... but they do need it to do it cheaper, with fewer dead cells, without overheating, and while extending range to the point where the boat-anchor of an engine can be dropped completely.

I'm not debating this further in this thread. Lets get back to discussing the disappointing XTS.

[Drew Dowdell]

What is disappointing about it. I really like it and would potentially buy one if one of my other businesses takes off.

[SAmadei]

What is disappointing about it. I really like it and would potentially buy one if one of my other businesses takes off.

Well, since anyone who complains about the FWD shortcomings is ridiculed here, I'll leave that out. Also its dreadful FWD proportions. I'll also not start about how it confusing that Cadillac's largest car is not a flagship and seems more like a overpriced, rebadged Buick.

The single biggest disappointment to me is that its too narrow. The second biggest disappointment is that it everything we've seen about the XTS's design screams "would have been sweet in 2004".

[Drew Dowdell]

I just disagree that every car EVAR has to be rear wheel drive and that in order to be considered "premium" the car must be RWD based (how Audi gets away with it, I don't know)

We've already been able to extrapolate from the Lacrosse that the weight balance of an AWD XTS would actually be superior to that of an A8.

We don't know it's width yet and we know it's NOT going to be the flagship.

Cadillac's flagship is the Escalade Hybrid... and that was the first time in a long time that it's largest vehicle is it's flagship. Prior to the Escalade H joining the lineup, the flagships have been the XLR(-V) STS(-V), or going back far enough, the Seville and Allante... both of which were dwarfed by the Deville and Fleetwood.

The G-body Deville has been around since what... 93? It's NEVER been the flagship.

The XTS is no more a Lacrosse rebadge than a DTS is a Bonneville rebadge.

No car anywhere will satisfy everyone, but if you have gripes, at least make them legitimate.

[Croc]

I just disagree that every car EVAR has to be rear wheel drive and that in order to be considered "premium" the car must be RWD based (how Audi gets away with it, I don't know)

We've already been able to extrapolate from the Lacrosse that the weight balance of an AWD XTS would actually be superior to that of an A8.

We don't know it's width yet and we know it's NOT going to be the flagship.

Cadillac's flagship is the Escalade Hybrid... and that was the first time in a long time that it's largest vehicle is it's flagship. Prior to the Escalade H joining the lineup, the flagships have been the XLR(-V) STS(-V), or going back far enough, the Seville and Allante... both of which were dwarfed by the Deville and Fleetwood.

The G-body Deville has been around since what... 93? It's NEVER been the flagship.

The XTS is no more a Lacrosse rebadge than a DTS is a Bonneville rebadge.

No car anywhere will satisfy everyone, but if you have gripes, at least make them legitimate.

Doesn't change the fact that not only does this vehicle not fit with the new image of Cadillac in any way whatsoever, it also complicates the positioning of the rest of the lineup. Let's be honest here...very few people buy Sevilles/STS compared to Deville/DTS. Wonder why? Oh, because same powertrains, larger car, less money. Hmmmmm...

This is just perpetuating the same nonsense that has been going on at Cadillac since the 1980s.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is no more STS in about 5 minutes.

You think people who are interested in a loaded up CTS are going to pass on it and go for the XTS instead?

[Croc]

There is no more STS in about 5 minutes.

You think people who are interested in a loaded up CTS are going to pass on it and go for the XTS instead?

Some buyers, yes. Fact is, the pint/quart/half-gallon/gallon sizing works well in the automotive world. You got a brand, and you have your size classes, and then you have content subclasses reflecting the position of the brand. Please, tell me one other brand that positions its largest sedan smack in the middle of its sedan pricing tiers. Please, it's a joke. This should be a flagship Buick, not a mid-level Cadillac.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Croc

[balthazar]

s-class starts @ $91K and it's the largest sedan.

CL starts @ $113K

G starts @ $105K

SL starts @ $102K

SLS starts @ $183K

^-- all smaller than the s-class = 'largest sedan smack in the middle of it's pricing tiers'.

[Croc]

s-class starts @ $91K and it's the largest sedan.

CL starts @ $113K

G starts @ $105K

SL starts @ $102K

SLS starts @ $183K

^-- all smaller than the s-class = 'largest sedan smack in the middle of it's pricing tiers'.

I see what you did there, but I've edited my post to clarify. I think you know what I meant, anyway.

[smk4565]

I would agree with Croc here, the XTS does not fit the image or the overall lineup Cadillac is going for. Except the XTS won't be priced in the middle, this is going to be the most expensive car Cadillac offers. The current DTS has a base price $11,000 over the CTS. XTS is going to take over for that. So either the CTS and XTS have the same price, like the STS and DTS now (which didn't work) or CTS stays at the current price, and ATS gets to be priced like that horrible Lexus CT Hatchback thing.

And the Mercedes lineup has some anomalies in there. The S-class still tops out over $200,000. The CL is just a 2-door S-class, and SLS AMG and G550 SUV are low volume niche products with big price premiums. The SL is the gold standard of luxury roadster/convertibles and has been since the 1950s. Mercedes really has 2 flagship cars and a halo exotic, not a bad place to be.

[balthazar]

I see what you did there, but I've edited my post to clarify. I think you know what I meant, anyway.

The CL isn't a sedan ? {'No- it's a coupe'. Whatev; it's a non-SUV, non-roadster; I think you kno what I mean.}

Regardless- sedan vs. sport car vs. SUV- any one could be a 'flagship'.

mercedees claims it's the s-class, when frankly, it should be the SLS.

If they had done it right and made the maybach a mercedes, your hierarchy formula would work there.

But most people would agree that the old school 'biggest is most expensive' think went out a few decades ago.

It did at Cadillac ('76 Seville).

Edited March 16, 2011 by balthazar

[balthazar]

The SL is the gold standard of luxury roadster/convertibles and has been since the 1950s.

More hilarious than your crusade to convince the world BMW uses metal grilles.

I still remember being behind an early '60s SL roadster on the street. Had a steel gas filler pipe that stuck 6" out the back of the rear fascia, with a 4" rubber boot around it.

Built like a kit car, no attention to detail, no luxury amenities, no power. Where was the luxury in the '50s & '60s again ?? 'Tin-standard' is more like it, if even that.

Edited March 16, 2011 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

I think you might be referring to the CLS chopped-roof sedan (I refuse to call it a "coupe"). I think the CL-Class is a coupe. Ah.. the perils of an alphanumeric naming structure...

IIRC, anything with a "K" in the nomenclature is a small car. GLK is the small SUV, CLK is a small coupe, SLK is the small roadster.

SL is the bigger roadster, and I think... SEL (?) is the bigger S-Class coupe. Or is it SEC? Holy Toledo.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ocnblu

[balthazar]

So only non-SUV, non-CUV, 4-doors can qualify in this example ? Gettin' pretty nitpicky...

[Drew Dowdell]

If you want Cadillac's largest vehicle to be the flagship....

I got your flagship right here. Respected by NBA stars and mobsters alike.....

[smk4565]

The SL is the gold standard of luxury roadster/convertibles and has been since the 1950s.

More hilarious than your crusade to convince the world BMW uses metal grilles.

I still remember being behind an early '60s SL roadster on the street. Had a steel gas filler pipe that stuck 6" out the back of the rear fascia, with a 4" rubber boot around it.

Built like a kit car, no attention to detail, no luxury amenities, no power. Where was the luxury in the '50s & '60s again ?? 'Tin-standard' is more like it, if even that.

There was the Jag E-type which has become pretty legendary, but no one else has mounted a serious threat to the SL over it's history. The Allante and XLR came and went, and the SL is the standard of the class that others try to copy.

Just like the S-class is what ever other big sedan tries to be like. No one is chasing Cadillac, that is why I don't like the XTS, it is just a modern DTS, not a car that gives Cadillac any position of leadership.

[Justin Bimmer]

I don't understand how the XTS doesn't "fit" into what Cadillac is. It appears to me that it is going to be a well appointed car with a visually distinctive exterior that is equal to all of its brandmates which make it a Cadillac.

I would argue the original Escalade did not fit Cadillac as an example. It was something done in an emergency with some new plastic and stitching. The XTS has had at least a year of R&D put into it. The car is not an afterthought. It will not soil the Cadillac brand.

[smk4565]

A Chevy truck with extra bling and chrome isn't a good flagship either. You don't want to be known for making a big gas guzzler, that is what did Hummer in. Better to have a dopey hybrid as your icon like Toyota because then everything is all sunshine and bubbles. At least in the eyes of the sheeple.