Gay group: "Caliber" Ad is anything but cute

[Intrepidation]

Cute

Not so cute.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is ridiculous.....

I hate dumbass politically correct americans... They're a DISGRACE to my name and this country.

Just another death tactic aimed at hindering the success of an american automaker (Yep, they're all probably too STUPID to know that X is now a part of DCX)

[Cortazzo]

The fairy reference in the commercial was CLEARLY of the tinkerbell variety, not of any kind of homosexual reference IMO. With the biker guy, he goes from one 80s fashion nightmare to the opposite 80s fashion nightmare, ultra preppy country club, i wouldn't necessarily consider it gay, but cutesy.

I wouldn't blame any group of people for these stupid accusations by minority interest groups of prejudice. Interest groups from every sort of minority (from italians, to blacks, to women, to gays) try hard to find things to complain about to remain relevant and to stay in the media.

Either way, Dodge continues to position their brand as aggressive and macho, if that doesn't appeal to you go buy someone else's car, no big deal.

[Turbojett]

this is rediculous. if they want to play it like that, I'll fight dirty too.

The Internet-based group [Commercial Closet] monitors marketing tactics that could be offensive to gays and lesbians.

Commercial Closet scours the media for ads that insinuate stereotypes or emit homophobic messages

tells me that they're just a bunch of whiny bitches who go around looking for something to complain about, because they have nothing better to do with their time, like most of the consumer groups we hear about.

how's that for stereotyping (consumer groups)?

[Drew Dowdell]

you seriously WANT to get married???  WHY?  I WANT OUT!

Actually, I feel your pain, and am all for you getting married.  Have a ball.  The problem comes when you look at what 'married' means.  Employer's need to give 'partners' benefits, tax law has to be rewritten, insurrance regulations have to be changed...the list of changes is long and complicated.  It is not as simple as pronouncing you man and man or wife and wife. 

Actually, it IS that easy. If I have a marrage certificate, then the other person listed on the certificate is my spouse. Nothing else needs to be re-written. With healthcare, marriage couples just get the discount rate from the insurance agency not the employer. If two guys have seperate insurance policies, then get married, it costs the company nothing more then if a heterosexual couple gets married.

I am not smart enough to have the answers.  I am not a bible thumper and really don't care one way or another.  Same goes for abortion - your choice, your GOD, your concience - just don't ask me to pay for it!

I didn't know that if gays got married, heteros would somehow have to pay for it..... I'll have to look that up. If I can get a bunch of straight people to sponser the costs of my wedding, that would be awsome..... oh wait.... parents.... right.

I am going to ask the question that will start a $hit storm of controversy...Why exactly do gays want the governments of the world to recognize you as married?  What is the BFD?  Get married to each other - profess your undying love for one another - have a ceremony- share rings.  What is the deal with needing it to be a legally binding arrangement recognized by the rest of the people in the world?  Isn't having someone who loves you reason enough? 

There are a ton of reasons why gays need the legal recognision of marriage:

Visitation rights in the hospital. When my partner was in a coma back in November, I was not allowed in to intensive care to see him until his parents gave permission to the hospital. I am very close to his parents so I knew it would not be a problem. Others aren't so lucky.

When one half of a heterosexual married couple dies, the other half inherits <nearly automatically> the assets tax free. I currently own close to a million dollars worth of investment property. I can will all of it to my partner, but NONE of it would be tax free and he'd likely have to sell off a substantial amount just to pay the taxes... thereby generating even MORE taxes.

As far as feeling "complete". You're right, all we need is each other. We'll still have a wedding some day and exchange rings, but I would really like to know that he is going to be legally protected if I were to die. I am not close with my parents and he could have a legal battle with them <while also dealing with my death/hospitalization> if my parents choose to fight him. It will take a substantial amount in legal fees to afford him the same protections as you would get by filling out a marrage certificate and paying your $55 fee.

Since when has being a minority in this country made it o.k. to overturn what 90+% of the rest of us believe in(marriage is between a man and a woman)?  An example: Because of 1% of the population - the word GOD cannot be uttered anywhere near government or a school.

There was a time in this country when the majority of the population felt that inter-racial marriage should be illegal and the minority <interacial couples who wanted to get married>, should just shut up about it... isn't their love enough... etc.

Yeah... we should go back to those days.

Short answer: Because gays getting married doesn't hurt you in any way shape or form. Do you feel harmed because gays can be married in Massachusetts now?

[Hudson]

EVERY special-interest group has become "overly sensitive" in the past couple of decades. This is nothing new. Anyone else see the "war on Christianity" that's being claimed by right-wing extremists? C'mon...it's everywhere.

I'm rather open-minded and I try to be sensitive to the delicate nature of most minorities, but taking offense to the Calber ad is stupid. I find it far less offensive than the controversial Chrysler Concorde 'how did Savana get her name" ad (one of my favorites) or the Dodge Durango "it's big"/urinal ad (another great ad).

America...get over yourself. Sometimes a fairy is just a fairy. Sometimes a colorfully dressed man is just a preppie.

[Camino LS6]

This is just another sad example of an overly PC mentality and much ado about nothing. It's just an ad, it's funny, get over it already.

The real tragedy would be if DCX pulled the ad because of this "pressure" to do so.Having a Libertarian mentality, that would truly offend me. Fighting for equal treatment is a noble thing, but trying to eliminate everything that might offend someone is absurd. This "activist" group needs to check their priorities.

[toesuf94]

I am fine with your reasoning. And I see your point. Now look at it from a hetero point of view:

Insurance WILL go higher for everyone because people look at gay men's sexual lifestyle as 'high risk'. Now, insurance companies cannot give you a rate that is higher than mine because they see you as a higher risk than a hetero couple, so they will have to raise everyone's rates to compensate. If they targeted gay couples with higher rates - you would see lawsuits for discrimination all over the country. This is one example.

Taxes: While I agree that there should not be an inheritance tax, we will play hell getting that absolved out of the government's hands any time soon. Bush tried a few years back and was shot down big time. Even married couples have to shelter assets in such a way as to not loose a big chunk once one or the other dies - and it is even worse for the children of the deceased. YOU have to work on sheltering your assets in perpetuity by either setting up a corporation to shelter them, giving your partner stock and holdings that can continue after you are gone. This is the same for EVERYONE - if you do not shelter your assets - you will loose them.

I am not threatened by Gay marriage in MA, or anywhere else for that matter. and no, I am not asking to go back to the days of racial bigotry in this country. But at what point does everything that this country was founded on get overturned - then the very basis of our country is gone...then what do we have?

To step away from the Gay issue for a minute - When a woman can sue the state of California for discrimination - and win - because she refuses to allow her face to be photographed for a driver's license as she will not remove her burka - that is WRONG. Years ago, common sense would have had her laughed out of the courtroom...now she wins and starts a whole new precident. When a guy challenges the ten commandments in a court house lobby because HE is an athiest - and wins to have them removed - this is overturning the very BASIS of what our country was founded on. It seems these days that everything that we hold dear is being attacked from one side or the other - and i am afraid that the issue of gay marriage is just the one that people have decided to put thier foot down on. Just my 11.5 cents on this whole topic. At this point - I am going to have to say that I am done on this topic, and that we will agree to disagree.

Love your tag line about the slinkies by the way...and when I get the money - the CTS-V will be in the garage next to my vette. If the new one looks like what Lutz is standing next to in the 60 Minutes piece - I will be in line! What a car!

[funkypunnk]

Hey, live your life, your way, and I don't care..............unless you ask me if I care, and then I will offer an opinion. My opinion will be how I honestly feel, whether you like it or not. In other words if gays just lived like I do, without advertisement within a group of friends they feel comfortable around, life would be as they wish. When they try to demand focus on their lifestyle, which I do not do with my lifestyle, I feel compelled to shout to all SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!! It is not anyone's job to evangelize and convince the world that their way is the right way or an acceptable way. SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!! I don't care who or what you sleep with, I do care that you tell me about it.

[Clownzilla]

What have we come down to! Listen, if this commercial offends people.........TOO BAD!!!! Will this commercial change the way people see gay people.....NO!!!! How about that new commercial with the Hybrid Camry that states " This is what America needs". I'm surprised nobody has posted that! But no, the GM board has to be the board to argue gay rights. Now, I have several gay friends, and I support gay rights, but this is ridiculous!

PS.

No offense against the poster or any of the replies.

[regfootball]

We don't have any gay folks on C&G?

[Paolino]

Insurance WILL go higher for everyone because people look at gay men's sexual lifestyle as 'high risk'.  Now, insurance companies cannot give you a rate that is higher than mine because they see you as a higher risk than a hetero couple, so they will have to raise everyone's rates to compensate.  If they targeted gay couples with higher rates - you would see lawsuits for discrimination all over the country.  This is one example.

See, that annoys me... people shouldn't view gay men's sexual lifestyle as high risk... it's not so anymore. Heterosexual people have just as much sex in as many varieties of positions, locations and partners as homosexuals do. Homosexuals no longer lead in AIDs. I admit, things were horrible in the 70's and 80's, but things are different now. People are not seeing that.

The stereotypes still prevail. I hate it, because if I were to tell someone at work I'm gay (and only 3 know), they would immediately assume I live a different life than I actually do. I know this--from the comments made by MANY as well as the reactions from the three I told. After I told the three, they were questioning things for weeks... and then found out I was really just a "normal" laid back guy.

[The O.C.]

As for anyone who professes great disdain for your lifestyle - who the hell are they to say anything about another person's life choices? 

First of all, it is NO "choice"........anyone that thinks it is, has their head up their ass....or is really seriously undereducated...

AND it's NOT a "lifestyle."

Living at the beach in southern California is a "lifestyle."

Living in an apartment in a city like Manhattan is a "lifestyle."

Living in the Colorado mountains in a log-cabin is a "lifestyle."

I appreciate your comments....but I just wanted to clarify a couple of FUNDAMENTAL things...

[The O.C.]

Seriously though, beer isn't my thing... as long as we can have the option of tossing back something stronger, say like scotch or tequila  :AH-HA_wink:

AMEN....! Patron Gold or Milagro Tequila......

Or a nice, red, Cab....

[Flybrian]

First of all, it is NO "choice"........anyone that thinks it is, has their head up their ass....or is really seriously undereducated...

AND it's NOT a "lifestyle." 

Living at the beach in southern California is a "lifestyle."

Living in an apartment in a city like Manhattan is a "lifestyle."

Living in the Colorado mountains in a log-cabin is a "lifestyle."

I appreciate your comments....but I just wanted to clarify a couple of FUNDAMENTAL things...

O.C., I understand your obvious passion for the subject, but remember that not everyone is attuned tothe nuances of terminology and the like. Regardless of the choice of words, his intentions were supportive and good-hearted. Again, I understand and personally agree, but please don't let that be overshadowed to someone casually reading this.

[The O.C.]

In other words if gays just lived like I do, without advertisement within a group of friends they feel comfortable around, life would be as they wish. When they try to demand focus on their lifestyle, which I do not do with my lifestyle, I feel compelled to shout to all SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!

Having "blinders on" is an interesting thing.

Once again.....being gay isn't any more of a "lifestyle" than being straight is a "lifestyle."

You'd be AMAZED at how often "straight people" in everyday life, demand "focus" on THIER "lifestyle."

I'm a gay man, professional, and masculine. Yet EVERYWHERE I go, I'm confronted with the "straight lifestyle." (if you will accept that play on words.)

For example......straight couples holding hands and kissing in public (which is not generally accepted for me to do.) Or...how about my "straight" co-workers (who totally know about me being gay) trying to get me to go out to the titty-bars with them....just for fun, you know? Even though they know it's not "my thing..?"

Or how about the old couple in the Buick LeSabre I was behind the other day that had a bumper sticker on their car that proudly stated that "Marriage = 'man stick figure' + 'female stick figure'?

I'd say that's straight people "demanding focus on THEIR lifestyle." However, I don't let that stuff get to me, because I have way more important things to me in my life. BUT it happens....you guys, by nature, just don't see how it can affect US.

AND, is a gay couple wishing to be legally married (something YOU CAN DO) "demanding focus on our 'lifestyle?'"

[The O.C.]

O.C., I understand your obvious passion for the subject, but remember that not everyone is attuned tothe nuances of terminology and the like. Regardless of the choice of words, his intentions were supportive and good-hearted. Again, I understand and personally agree, but please don't let that be overshadowed to someone casually reading this. 

Oh, I understand FLY.....but they NEED to know the impact their choice of words can have.

Maybe it doesn't impact you as strongly, but it impacts MANY of us that deal with this on a day to day basis...

I think I was polite/nice in my last sentance of my post....trying not to give the wrong impression....

[Cadavillac]

Homosexuals no longer lead in AIDs.  I admit, things were horrible in the 70's and 80's, but things are different now.  People are not seeing that.

You're right.

Insurance WILL go higher for everyone because people look at gay men's sexual lifestyle as 'high risk'.  Now, insurance companies cannot give you a rate that is higher than mine because they see you as a higher risk than a hetero couple, so they will have to raise everyone's rates to compensate.  If they targeted gay couples with higher rates - you would see lawsuits for discrimination all over the country.  This is one example.

Yes, homosexual men's sexual lifestyle is very high risk. For years they've been birthing HIV infected babies with significantly shorter life expectancies that require frequent monitoring since most develop a serious infection secondary to HIV in the first year of life.

Wait no, that's heterosexual women, the fastest growing group with HIV infection.

Sources:

http://www.indiana.edu/~aids/factsheets2.html

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/hivchildren.htm

O.C., I understand your obvious passion for the subject, but remember that not everyone is attuned tothe nuances of terminology and the like. Regardless of the choice of words, his intentions were supportive and good-hearted. Again, I understand and personally agree, but please don't let that be overshadowed to someone casually reading this. 

Using the correct terminology is vital in discussions such as these to let everyone know where exactly you stand on the matter.

Lifestyle: Living on the beach in California (as someone mentioned earlier)

Sexual preference: Men with short hair and green eyes.

Sexual orientation: Homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual.

Someone who refers to homosexuality as a "lifestyle" is probably going to be opposed to any issue revolving around homosexuality rather than someone who refers to it as an orientation.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Cadavillac

[funkypunnk]

Having "blinders on" is an interesting thing.

Once again.....being gay isn't any more of a "lifestyle" than being straight is a "lifestyle."

You'd be AMAZED at how often "straight people" in everyday life, demand "focus" on THIER "lifestyle."

I'm a gay man, professional, and masculine.  Yet EVERYWHERE I go, I'm confronted with the "straight lifestyle." (if you will accept that play on words.)

For example......straight couples holding hands and kissing in public (which is not generally accepted for me to do.)  Or...how about my "straight" co-workers (who totally know about me being gay) trying to get me to go out to the titty-bars with them....just for fun, you know?  Even though they know it's not "my thing..?"

Actually,I have been invited to go out to gay bars while at corporate headquarters by gay people even though they knew it wasn't "my thing"! See, I didn't whine or complain! I just said no, thank you.

Or how about the old couple in the Buick LeSabre I was behind the other day that had a bumper sticker on their car that proudly stated that "Marriage = 'man stick figure' + 'female stick figure'?

Yeah right, I have never ever seen the gay rainbow bumper stickers on any cars anywhere! GET REAL, Gays advertise via bumper sticker more than anyone I know!

I'd say that's straight people "demanding focus on THEIR lifestyle."  However, I don't let that stuff get to me, because I have way more important things to me in my life.  BUT it happens....you guys, by nature, just don't see how it can affect US.

AND, is a gay couple wishing to be legally married (something YOU CAN DO) "demanding focus on our 'lifestyle?'"

Get joined, just don't call it marriage. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take a bath is it called getting baptized? When performed in a religious ceremony it has a different meaning, from taking a bath to getting baptized, from civil union to marriage. Since there is no traditional religion that recognizes the union of two same sex people as valid,that is why marriage cannot exist between gays. I have no problem with civil unions and believe that you and your life partner should be entitled to all of the perks, just don't call it marriage anymore than you can call any old bath a baptism!

As far as our lifestyle being thrown in your face,in society majority always rules. The majority becomes mainstream and accepted and the minority is not. Gays are a very small minority and therefore you have to see my lifestyle just by chance. We don't throw it in your face and no malice is intended. We don't have a hetero rainbow for our cars, we don't stage protests or demonstartions in support of the hetero lifestyle, and we don't lobby the government or hollywood toinclude more hetero rights and issues in their prospective agendas!

SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of us!!!

[jry]

beer? did someone mention beer? preferably of the dark german variety.

now help me out here. what is a lesbian trapped in a mans body mean?

[pow]

Actually,I have been invited to go out to gay bars while at corporate headquarters by gay people even though they knew it wasn't "my thing"! See, I didn't whine or complain! I just said no, thank you.

Yeah right, I have never ever seen the gay rainbow bumper stickers on any cars anywhere! GET REAL, Gays advertise via bumper sticker more than anyone I know!

Get joined, just don't call it marriage. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take a bath is it called getting baptized? When performed in a religious ceremony it has a different meaning, from taking a bath to getting baptized, from civil union to marriage. Since there is no traditional religion that recognizes the union of two same sex people as valid,that is why marriage cannot exist between gays. I have no problem with civil unions and believe that you and your life partner should be entitled to all of the perks, just don't call it marriage anymore than you can call any old bath a baptism!

As far as our lifestyle being thrown in your face,in society majority always rules. The majority becomes mainstream and accepted and the minority is not. Gays are a very small minority and therefore you have to see my lifestyle just by chance. We don't throw it in your face and no malice is intended. We don't have a hetero rainbow for our cars, we don't stage protests or demonstartions in support of the hetero lifestyle, and we don't lobby the government or hollywood toinclude more hetero rights and issues in their prospective agendas!

SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of us!!!

Record for the greatest number of exclamation marks in a single C&G post...

[Sixty8panther]

While we're at it can we bitchslap the Douchebag who made Chevy pull the

Jumpin Jack Flash Corvette ad? God that made me so damn mad I wanted

to go to her house and pour a handfull of sand inot the oil fill of her car...

undboubtedly she drives a Camry or Sienna.

For what it's worth I'd love to buy a Mini Cooper S but will never be caught

dead in a Caliber. I think the Caliber has busy-disproportionate & chintsy

styling. It's very S. Korean looking to me.

Off topic:

Very, very cool sig. Hats off to you for having the coolest daily driver on C&G.

[turbo200]

Yeah right, I have never ever seen the gay rainbow bumper stickers on any cars anywhere! GET REAL, Gays advertise via bumper sticker more than anyone I know!

Get joined, just don't call it marriage. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take a bath is it called getting baptized? When performed in a religious ceremony it has a different meaning, from taking a bath to getting baptized, from civil union to marriage. Since there is no traditional religion that recognizes the union of two same sex people as valid,that is why marriage cannot exist between gays. I have no problem with civil unions and believe that you and your life partner should be entitled to all of the perks, just don't call it marriage anymore than you can call any old bath a baptism!

As far as our lifestyle being thrown in your face,in society majority always rules. The majority becomes mainstream and accepted and the minority is not. Gays are a very small minority and therefore you have to see my lifestyle just by chance. We don't throw it in your face and no malice is intended. We don't have a hetero rainbow for our cars, we don't stage protests or demonstartions in support of the hetero lifestyle, and we don't lobby the government or hollywood toinclude more hetero rights and issues in their prospective agendas!

SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of us!!!

I actually enjoyed this post. I'm on this side of the fence. great discussion here. I definitely don't want to offend any of the regular posters here; but this is just my belief. I like how toesuf put it up above...this is a religious discussion, and by inferring men should be allowed to marry men in the union of marriage, you are asking me to change my beliefs--not the other way around. As for the rights issue, I'm sure reasonable arguments exist on both sides--I really don't care either way I would grant gay men/women the rights, but marriage is not a part of the rights in my mind.

[Paolino]

Yeah right, I have never ever seen the gay rainbow bumper stickers on any cars anywhere! GET REAL, Gays advertise via bumper sticker more than anyone I know!

Get joined, just don't call it marriage. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take a bath is it called getting baptized? When performed in a religious ceremony it has a different meaning, from taking a bath to getting baptized, from civil union to marriage. Since there is no traditional religion that recognizes the union of two same sex people as valid,that is why marriage cannot exist between gays. I have no problem with civil unions and believe that you and your life partner should be entitled to all of the perks, just don't call it marriage anymore than you can call any old bath a baptism!

As far as our lifestyle being thrown in your face,in society majority always rules. The majority becomes mainstream and accepted and the minority is not. Gays are a very small minority and therefore you have to see my lifestyle just by chance. We don't throw it in your face and no malice is intended. We don't have a hetero rainbow for our cars, we don't stage protests or demonstartions in support of the hetero lifestyle, and we don't lobby the government or hollywood toinclude more hetero rights and issues in their prospective agendas!

SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of us!!!

Again.... you didn't have to once hide being a hetero... maybe now that we don't, some want to celebrate. I don't have a problem with people putting a rainbow on bumpers.

As for gays advertising more on bumper stickers more than anyone you know, you really shouldn't say that living in a heavily gay-populated area. For the same logic you're going by, I would say, living on Long Island, Italians advertise more on bumper stickers more than any one group I know. I've seen maybe a handful of rainbow stickers in the past 10 years. I've seen hundreds of Italian flag stickers on cars. Hell, I had one on my old Tracer.

[Camino LS6]

Decent ,civil discussion everyone! I'm always glad to see the membership handle a contentious topic so well.

I thought I'd add a fine point here. The most contentious aspect of the discussion seems to be centered on the word marriage and its definition. It seems to me that there is some confusion here about what the term means. Marriage is a civil contract not a religious one. You can choose to seek the blessing of your religion, but it is not required for a legal marriage. This reality leads to confusion about what a change in the law to allow same sex marriage really means. It would not mean that any religious organization would have to sanction the civil contract.

Because of this, I believe that denying the right to legal marriage to same sex couples will eventually be found to be unconstitutional. If you take tradition and religion out of the equation that conclusion becomes inescapable.

With these two points in mind, my position is simple- I would defend both the right of same sex couples to marry and the right of religious orders to refuse to sanctify the marriage. Freedom works for everyone or not at all.

[funkypunnk]

As for gays advertising more on bumper stickers more than anyone you know, you really shouldn't say that living in a heavily gay-populated area. For the same logic you're going by, I would say, living on Long Island, Italians advertise more on bumper stickers more than any one group I know. I've seen maybe a handful of rainbow stickers in the past 10 years. I've seen hundreds of Italian flag stickers on cars. Hell, I had one on my old Tracer.

I do NOT live in San Francisco, m company is headquartered in San Francisco. I live just outside of Chicago, not a very heavily populated gay area so the prevalence of the rainbow stickers is even more of an anomaly! Edited April 8, 2006 by funkypunnk

[funkypunnk]

I thought I'd add a fine point here. The most contentious aspect of the discussion seems to be centered on the word marriage and its definition. It seems to me that there is some confusion here about what the term means. Marriage is a civil contract not a religious one. You can choose to seek the blessing of your religion, but it is not required for a legal marriage. This reality leads to confusion about what a change in the law to allow same sex marriage really means. It would not mean that any religious organization would have to sanction the civil contract.

Because of this, I believe that denying the right to legal marriage to same sex couples will eventually be found to be unconstitutional. If you take tradition and religion out of the equation that conclusion becomes inescapable.

With these two points in mind, my position is simple- I would defend both the right of same sex couples to marry and the right of religious orders to refuse to sanctify the marriage. Freedom works for everyone or not at all.

This following paragraph is straight from a government website. Notice how they call it a "marriage license" yet the actual ceremonies are "civil wedding ceremonies" or "civil ceremonies" This reinforces my position and unfortunately, negates yours. The ceremony, when performed at a courthouse, is a civil union and not a marriage. Marriage is a civil union performed by a priest or minister.

For couples on a budget, or in a hurry, DuPage County currently has civil wedding ceremonies conducted almost every Friday, starting at about 11:30 AM. The ceremony cost is $10.00. However, you will need to obtain your DuPage County marriage license at least 24 hours prior to the ceremony. Cook County also conducts civil ceremonies at some of their offices.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... as far as that ad goes... it intended something gay? What? That's news to me. I watched it and saw nothing wrong.

And for the discussion... well, Paullie, OC, Ocn, Cavadillac, and others have pretty much sad it for me. No need for me to repeat, obviously. Or is there? Well... Funkypunnk's posts are amusing, at best. I will say that much... It sounds as if he's fine with everything, but deep down he's somewhat homophobic... I mean, why else would he shelter his kids? That's just... well, to stay civil... hilarious. Peace, from BVeece.

[Camino LS6]

This following paragraph is straight from a government website. Notice how they call it a "marriage license" yet the actual ceremonies are "civil wedding ceremonies" or "civil ceremonies" This reinforces my position and unfortunately, negates yours. The ceremony, when performed at a courthouse, is a civil union and not a marriage. Marriage is a civil union performed by a priest or minister. 

For couples on a budget, or in a hurry, DuPage County currently has civil wedding ceremonies conducted almost every Friday, starting at about 11:30 AM. The ceremony cost is $10.00. However, you will need to obtain your DuPage County marriage license at least 24 hours prior to the ceremony. Cook County also conducts civil ceremonies at some of their offices.

Dude, you just proved my point for me. The ceremony is an option. That's what I meant about being caught up in the definition rather than the law.

[funkypunnk]

Well... as far as that ad goes... it intended something gay? What? That's news to me. I watched it and saw nothing wrong.

And for the discussion... well, Paullie, OC, Ocn, Cavadillac, and others have pretty much sad it for me. No need for me to repeat, obviously. Or is there? Well... Funkypunnk's posts are amusing, at best. I will say that much... It sounds as if he's fine with everything, but deep down he's somewhat homophobic... I mean, why else would he shelter his kids? That's just... well, to stay civil... hilarious. Peace, from BVeece.

By shelter I do not mean bury their heads in the sand. What I am describing is the same that I am debating. Through education and research, I shelter them from the distorted truths being thrown out by the vocal agenda-driven PC whiners. I shelter them from lies and inconsistencies by clarifying and increasing their awareness of reality! the same stuff I have been doing here. I would tell them that being gay is not bad or indecent, but it also is not mainstream. Gay unions are fine, but gay marriages are not. Gay rights are good, but gay awareness parades are not. Then again, I'm not gay so I will of course promote the lifestyle choice I am most familiar with, heterosexuality.

[funkypunnk]

Dude, you just proved my point for me. The ceremony is an option. That's what I meant about being caught up in the definition rather than the law.

Without the ceremony, you are not joined under the law. You need the license to do the ceremony. Once you have the license you can be "Married" in church or have a "Civil Wedding Union" in a courthouse. Government doesn't marry anyone, they civilly join them, or in other words, legally recognize the union under law!

[Cory Wolfe]

Yes... you see... that whole gay marriage thing... Yeah, that's what I mean. May I kindly ask why it is not okay? If I fall in love with someone that I want to spend the rest of my life with, why is it not okay to get married like a heterosexual couple might? Just because I'm gay? That and I clearly remember you trying to tell us how homosexuality was a choice a while ago, which it certainly is not. No one chooses to be gay. I nor anyone else here chose to be... That, what you said, is always in the back of my mind when you participate in these type of discussions.

[Camino LS6]

Without the ceremony, you are not joined under the law. You need the license to do the ceremony. Once you have the license you can be "Married" in church or have a "Civil Wedding Union" in a courthouse. Government doesn't marry anyone, they civilly join them, or in other words, legally recognize the union under law!

And if same sex couples were offered that same civil ceremony the fight would be over. Marriage in the eyes of the law is all that is required then all of the perks you and I are entitled to will be extended to same sex couples. Endorsement of the union is up to each religious order individually. You're splitting semantic hairs here. I certainly don't care if two men or two women wish to be married and I don't see why anyone else does. It doesn't affect anyone other than the two indviduals getting married.

[regfootball]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BOOYAH!

i just wanted to hold a record at some time in my life.

Record for the greatest number of exclamation marks in a single C&G post...

Edited April 8, 2006 by regfootball

[funkypunnk]

And if same sex couples were offered that same civil ceremony the fight would be over. Marriage in the eyes of the law is all that is required then all of the perks you and I are entitled to will be extended to same sex couples. Endorsement of the union is up to each religious order individually. You're splitting semantic hairs here. I certainly don't care if two men or two women wish to be married and I don't see why anyone else does. It doesn't affect anyone other than the two indviduals getting married.

If it is the sanctioning of that marriage by a religion that validates it as a marriage, then it is not a marriage and instead a civil union. I have no problem with same sex couples enjoying all of the privileges of hetero couples, you just can't call it a marriage as it was not performed under the eyes of a recognized traditional religion. Of course you could always start a church just for this purpose and call it the rainbow church or something, but then you are not getting what you want which is universal acceptance and recognition or validation. Unfortunately, as we are all entitiled to our opinions, I doubt gays will ever be universally accepted as your choice of a lifestyle offends many people. Yes BlackViper, I do believe and will always believe that it is a choice. I think that the denial of that fact allows gay people to justify their choices or makes it easier to say that it is beyond your control. These are just my opinions and until there is true scientific fact to the contrary, I will believe my opinions above anyone else's. That is no different than yourself who is just as adamant that it is not a choice so we will forever have to just agree to disagree.

[Drew Dowdell]

I am fine with your reasoning.  And I see your point.  Now look at it from a hetero point of view:

Insurance WILL go higher for everyone because people look at gay men's sexual lifestyle as 'high risk'.  Now, insurance companies cannot give you a rate that is higher than mine because they see you as a higher risk than a hetero couple, so they will have to raise everyone's rates to compensate.  If they targeted gay couples with higher rates - you would see lawsuits for discrimination all over the country.  This is one example.

How is promoting a monogamous relationship between two guys going to cause "higher risk"? The whole idea of allowing and promoting gay marriage is to promote monogamy. If gay men are monogamous, I fail to see the "high risk" you do.

Secondly, that's not even the way company sponsered insurance works. They take the total cost of the employee's bills from the previous year add a little padding, then divide by the number of participants. Have someone with a major case of cancer in the company, and every one's bills go up.

You want to target people affecting your health insurance co-pay/premium? Go after smokers.

You keep setting up the pins. I'll keep knocking them down.

[Drew Dowdell]

As far as our lifestyle being thrown in your face,in society majority always rules. The majority becomes mainstream and accepted and the minority is not. Gays are a very small minority and therefore you have to see my lifestyle just by chance. We don't throw it in your face and no malice is intended. We don't have a hetero rainbow for our cars, we don't stage protests or demonstartions in support of the hetero lifestyle, and we don't lobby the government or hollywood toinclude more hetero rights and issues in their prospective agendas!

SHUT UP & LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of us!!!

Majority rules? That's why we can no longer discriminate on race right?

Calling it marriage is religious based? Three things to address that:

1. Seperation of church and state, you are now discriminating against me based on religion.

2. Some religions allow gay marriage. You are discriminating against one religion in favor of another.

3. The false assumption that the current definition of marriage that you tout is:

a. The only current definition of marriage

b. The way marriage has always been defined.

Keep setting up the pins. I'll keep knocking them down.

[Drew Dowdell]

Decent ,civil discussion everyone! I'm always glad to see the membership handle a contentious topic so well.

I thought I'd add a fine point here. The most contentious aspect of the discussion seems to be centered on the word marriage and its definition. It seems to me that there is some confusion here about what the term means. Marriage is a civil contract not a religious one. You can choose to seek the blessing of your religion, but it is not required for a legal marriage. This reality leads to confusion about what a change in the law to allow same sex marriage really means. It would not mean that any religious organization would have to sanction the civil contract.

Because of this, I believe that denying the right to legal marriage to same sex couples will eventually be found to be unconstitutional. If you take tradition and religion out of the equation that conclusion becomes inescapable.

With these two points in mind, my position is simple- I would defend both the right of same sex couples to marry and the right of religious orders to refuse to sanctify the marriage. Freedom works for everyone or not at all.

[Drew Dowdell]

I do NOT live in San Francisco, m company is headquartered in San Francisco. I live just outside of Chicago, not a very heavily populated gay area so the prevalence of the rainbow stickers is even more of an anomaly!

uh.... we're everywhere. Not all gays live in little clusters in big cities.

I live in a quiet, upscale suburb.

[Drew Dowdell]

By shelter I do not mean bury their heads in the sand. What I am describing is the same that I am debating. Through education and research, I shelter them from the distorted truths being thrown out by the vocal agenda-driven PC whiners. I shelter them from lies and inconsistencies by clarifying and increasing their awareness of reality! the same stuff I have been doing here. I would tell them that being gay is not bad or indecent, but it also is not mainstream. Gay unions are fine, but gay marriages are not. Gay rights are good, but gay awareness parades are not. Then again, I'm not gay so I will of course promote the lifestyle choice I am most familiar with, heterosexuality.

Kids are smart. Why not let them figure it out on their own?

[Camino LS6]

If it is the sanctioning of that marriage by a religion that validates it as a marriage, then it is not a marriage and instead a civil union. I have no problem with same sex couples enjoying all of the privileges of hetero couples, you just can't call it a marriage as it was not performed under the eyes of a recognized traditional religion. Of course you could always start a church just for this purpose and call it the rainbow church or something, but then you are not getting what you want which is universal acceptance and recognition or validation. Unfortunately, as we are all entitiled to our opinions, I doubt gays will ever be universally accepted as your choice of a lifestyle offends many people. Yes BlackViper, I do believe and will always believe that it is a choice. I think that the denial of that fact allows gay people to justify their choices or makes it easier to say that it is beyond your control. These are just my opinions and until there is true scientific fact to the contrary, I will believe my opinions above anyone else's. That is no different than yourself who is just as adamant that it is not a choice so we will forever have to just agree to disagree.

Ummm, whatever gave you the idea that I want anything out of this? You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, I never said that I was gay. So, I'm not looking for any personal validation here. I have to say that couples that never had a religious ceremony most certainly consider themselves married- so that argument is null and void. Additionally, many churches are beginning to at least debate the possibility of sanctifying same sex marriages (some already do). If all rights and privileges are available to hetero and homo sexual couples in equal measure, the religious aspect of things is largely moot. You may not consider such unions not blessed by a church to be marriages, but the couples involved certainly will. My conclusion is that we are aguing about nothing at all of substance and already agree on the things that matter, so I'll leave this where it now stands.

[Drew Dowdell]

BTW,

The unitarians, episcopalians, lutherans, some sects of jewish faiths, many american indian faiths, and I'm sure some others, have some sort of homosexual union/marriage cerimony.

[Hudson]

I am fine with your reasoning.  And I see your point.  Now look at it from a hetero point of view:

Insurance WILL go higher for everyone because people look at gay men's sexual lifestyle as 'high risk'.  Now, insurance companies cannot give you a rate that is higher than mine because they see you as a higher risk than a hetero couple, so they will have to raise everyone's rates to compensate.  If they targeted gay couples with higher rates - you would see lawsuits for discrimination all over the country.  This is one example.

I don't get out much. Is this an example of our current educational system?

The homosexuals I know have a safer "lifestyle" than many of the heterosexuals I know...and this isn't uncommon in the real world. Point one: invalid.

I am not threatened by Gay marriage in MA, or anywhere else for that matter.  and no, I am not asking to go back to the days of racial bigotry in this country.  But at what point does everything that this country was founded on get overturned - then the very basis of our country is gone...then what do we have?

I didn't get where you were going with the whole tax issue, so here's my take on the third issue.

Everything our country was founded on? How about religious freedom...where the religious right wants to prevent everyone from believing what they want (or if they choose NOT to believe in a higher power) unless it agrees with what they believe in? Where homosexuals need to be treated like outcasts like people who were claimed to be witches or people of color or Communists or any other group that didn't fall into the right-leaning, white Christian definitions?

To step away from the Gay issue for a minute - When a woman can sue the state of California for discrimination - and win - because she refuses to allow her face to be photographed for a driver's license as she will not remove her burka - that is WRONG.  Years ago, common sense would have had her laughed out of the courtroom...now she wins and starts a whole new precident.  When a guy challenges the ten commandments in a court house lobby because HE is an athiest - and wins to have them removed - this is overturning the very BASIS of what our country was founded on.  It seems these days that everything that we hold dear is being attacked from one side or the other - and i am afraid that the issue of gay marriage is just the one that people have decided to put thier foot down on.  Just my 11.5 cents on this whole topic.  At this point - I am going to have to say that I am done on this topic, and that we will agree to disagree.

First you want America to stand on the basic principles the country was founded upon and then you want to take away a woman's religious belief? You was to believe in America but you want to deny "freedom of religion" (which includes freedom FROM religion) and the separation of Church and State by wanting the Ten Commandments to be posted on a court house. And you don't fully understand homosexuality to top it off?

Sigh....is this the propaganda that's being fed to our youth?

[Intrepidation]

Wasn't this originally about a Caliber ad? lol

[toesuf94]

beer? did someone mention beer? preferably of the dark german variety.

now help me out here. what is a lesbian trapped in a mans body mean?

Now we are talking - although the tequila may be needed by all of us to to settle everyone down a bit. I will take a nice German pilsner or Weiss beer anytime.

As for the lesbian trapped in a man's body - it simply means I dig chicks...

[Guest Josh]

I stopped reading at the middle of page 3 but don't think I'm making a statement but Drewbert is a good looking guy and to read he is a millionaire is all the more worthwhile.

Honestly?

Two gays work at my place of employment openly. I've been informed there might be one more not that I care.

that said, I look at my gay coworkers and I can joke with them more than the straight ones.

It seems gays are more comfortable with jokes and having fun while straight men always try to nit pick like a f@#king wife.

[toesuf94]

I don't get out much. Is this an example of our current educational system?

The homosexuals I know have a safer "lifestyle" than many of the heterosexuals I know...and this isn't uncommon in the real world. Point one: invalid.

I didn't get where you were going with the whole tax issue, so here's my take on the third issue.

Everything our country was founded on? How about religious freedom...where the religious right wants to prevent everyone from believing what they want (or if they choose NOT to believe in a higher power) unless it agrees with what they believe in? Where homosexuals need to be treated like outcasts like people who were claimed to be witches or people of color or Communists or any other group that didn't fall into the right-leaning, white Christian definitions?

First you want America to stand on the basic principles the country was founded upon and then you want to take away a woman's religious belief? You was to believe in America but you want to deny "freedom of religion" (which includes freedom FROM religion) and the separation of Church and State by wanting the Ten Commandments to be posted on a court house. And you don't fully understand homosexuality to top it off?

Sigh....is this the propaganda that's being fed to our youth?

O.k...looking at your last statement just proved my point - because you want to argue 'freedom of religion' as a basis to do whatever YOU feel is right, then common sense be damned?(in the case of the woman in CA wanting to wear a burka OVER HER FACE for a PHOTO ID on a STATE ISSUED License to operate a motor vehicle!!) What is next - wearing a ski mask over your face on your drivers license because you do not want to get a burn from the camera flash? Just because YOU or a group of people want to have something different than the rest of the country - everyone else has to change? The majority has to yeild to the minority? Why? So you all feel vindicated? You will feel like you gained acceptance because the majority changed 3000 years of beliefs to suit your needs? And you wonder why people living in the majority get pissed when THEIR beliefs get stomped on or challenged by a minority group. But GOD forbid that I use the word 'lifestyle' in describing your living with a same sex individual - you definately got upset at my faux paux. I have not had a sensitivity or 'gay-awareness meeting in a while. Thank you for catching me up on my terminology.

As far as the 'high-risk lifestyle' - there is still a HUGE perception that the gay lifestyle is high-risk. I do not know what the actual numbers are - I am talking perceived - should have been clearer on that I guess. Insurance companies will use this perception to drive everyone's rates up - watch.

Which leads me to the question of why we have to change thousands of years of beliefs and general 'darwinism' ( male+female=Survival of the species ) to make a group with seperate beliefs than the status quo happy? Where does it end? When people who practice Beastiality want to marry a goat or Ritual Sacrifice is made legal because a minority group says that it is not right for 'us' to challenge their religion or belief system? What is it going to take to finally wake everyone up to the fact that certain beliefs that challenge the 'norm' are not acceptable to the majority - nor good for society as a whole. ( Again my example: if your face is not shown on your i.d. - how can it be a legal ID? The woman WON in court based on the idea of freedom of religion...how is that a good thing when it goes against the very purpose of having the photo on there in the first place??? The system had to change for 1 person who did not accept our beliefs and our system that is in place in the ENTIRE United States.) Again - I don't care if you want to get hitched with another guy or girl or whatever - just don't ask the majority to change everything that they believe in to suit your needs for affirmation of your union.

And by the way: Is walking in a mall with my kids rubbing my heterosexuality in your face as well? Come ON! I am sorry that my being with my wife in public offends a gay guy - get over it! Hetero animals and humans have been showing affection in public for millions of years - you want that to change too so that you are not offended? You want to kiss your boyfriend - go for it! If someone picks a fight with you over it - I would stand there with you and take them on ( as would just about any other member on this board I am sure ). It is your right to do as a free citizen of the US of A.

It seems there is no end to this argument...

Case in point: A stupid little comercial about a car that 99.999% of anyone on this board will say has NOTHING gay in it has now garnered 5+ pages of topics on gay rights issues, has been attacked in the press by a gay rights activist group, and probably done nothing to help DCX sell even one of the little cars to either side of the fence. And I still have not had 1 Burbon, 1 Scotch or 1 beer.

[Paolino]

I do NOT live in San Francisco, m company is headquartered in San Francisco. I live just outside of Chicago, not a very heavily populated gay area so the prevalence of the rainbow stickers is even more of an anomaly!

Any reason you chose to quote me and change my name to "paolina"? I'm hoping it was an accident. Edited April 8, 2006 by Paolino

[funkypunnk]

Any reason you chose to quote me and change my name to "paolina"?  I'm hoping it was an accident.

Total accident, quoted the wrong person,typed manually the correction and screwed it up. My bad

[ocnblu]

This topic is always good for a multi-page thread. Funny how even a hint of it leads us off, square into the bullseye.

I like the Dodge Caliber because it is not cute, yet I like the Mini Cooper because it is cute. I'm an auto enthusiast who likes a lot of different styles of vehicles. I would hope I never end up in a pigeonhole, by my own doing or someone else's.

It's now, more than likely, time for a dancing banana.