6th gen Camaro info.

[dwightlooi]

IMHO,k the Camaro is and always will be a muscle car. That's its image, and that's its selling point. In that regard a 3.6 V6 is probably a better engine for the base car than an I4-turbo. As far as fuel economy goes, a variable duration valve train on the V6 will essentially equal the current breed of Inline-4 turbos. There is also no need to go over board on the MPG thing in the Camaro. CAFE will be won or lost in the Sonics, Cruzes and Malibus, the Camaro just have to be mid-pack, it doesn't have to be a leader on the GM's MPG chart. Also, it is not a big deal if GM misses CAFE. It is not the end of the world and the fine is quite minuscule per vehicle. If you miss by a full point, that's $40~$50 per car. Nobody will notice that that in the price tag.... just pass it along. It is more important to build cars that the market wants rather than cars that help nudge the CAFE rating up a few tenths of a point.

Now, if Chevy wants to build a "modern" sports coupe. They can build a 2800 lbs 2-seat, mid engine, scissor door $25,000 coupe with a 300hp Turbo-4. It'll probably be well received too. But they shouldn't call it a Camaro. Calling it a Camaro actually hurts from a marketing standpoint because the "Muscle Car" buyer won't like the car and the "Techno Coupe" buyer won't like the name!

[smk4565]

A 2002 Camaro had a 200 hp V6 and a 305 hp V8. Today you can easily top both those figures with a turbo 4 and a V6, even a turbo V6. I realize you want current car to surpass a 2002 model, thus I'd still throw a 400+ hp V8 as the range topper. The Camaro sells now because it has been gone a while so there is pent up demand, plus it looks good. But to me it still is a bit of an old guy's muscle car. I think it would be even better once downsized a little so it has size and weight of the Mustang, and a turbo 4 getting 31-33 mpg is added. Less weight also = better handling.

[regfootball]

as far as engines, i think adding a four would add appeal, at least in terms of women and younger buyers which, let's face the fact, the Camaro does indeed need to snag a few more. because right now most people think the camaro is a fat old guy's car for someone who can't let go of the past, and get's their kicks on cheap beer and smoky burnouts.

that said, we all know the current muscle cars are way beyond that in terms of performance today. They just are not beyond that in terms of market perception yet.

With the customer base dying off, and with the need for all car lines to be somewhat fiscally responsible well into the future to justify ANY investment now, there needs to be an effort to 'package' the car enough ways to be able to meet any market trends that differ than the old school customer base, and to perhaps steal buyers from other segments or niches.

Little rich turds today and younger folks probably look more at cars like the 3 series / M3 and cars like the classic asian tuner cars as cars possessing the sporty excellence they desire and want to identify with. In some aspects, and especially to cultivate a new base with people outside the US and with younger buyers weaned on this type of vehicle...the Camaro has to be a complete dynamic match or exceed the likes of the 3 series / M3 and perhaps take on some of the character of that. This is where the lightness, balance, smaller size, and handling and suspension excellence come in. With regard to the tuner cars, this is where things like the turbo 4 comes in (and helps make the car relevant outside the US).

I think to some degree the Genesis couple tries to tap this. A little bit smaller than the ZETAHOG, and offering the 4 pot turbo as the base engine.....lots of value, yet still ok performance, etc. because this is what the tuner bunch would expect to see.

The Camaro I still would probably have the bulk of the cars be sold with the v6, it's excellent, provides value. Maybe a base Camaro is a non turbo four, with a turbo four option, the v6 is 60% of the mix, the v8 is 25% of the mix. There could be an 'ultimate' v8, that is one with forced induction.

Cars like the Genesis coupe, their niche will mesh into the Camaro / Mustang niche......Camaro and Mustang must of course include and totally exude their classic personality, but in no way can they ignore what will be required of the segment in the future.

There's no reason the Alpha Camaro can't outhandle an M3, outvalue and be as accessible to the youngsters as a Genesis coupe, and still appeal to the fat oldsters while being exciting to the MAJORITY of the younger set, including women. And the traditionally import minded folks.

If the styling and design recalls but not copies the heritage, but the drive is leading edge / world class, and it does it meeting fuel economy targets and at the highest value with regards to price, then it's not too much to ask of the Camaro.

So I really think a 4 pot has to fit in the future at some point in the Camaro, while I don't think it should be the dominant powertrain, people need to accept that it's probably inevitable so we should all get over it, move on, and find some way to make it exquisite.

I still remember how jacked my brother in law was when he got his 4 cylinder thunderbird turbo coupe. TO this day, it's still probably his favorite car he had. It was and is still possible to deliver a great package with a four cylinder and add to the legacy of an existing icon.

If the next Camaro bows in 2015 the basic design has to be relevent into the early 2020's even to 2025. You are trying to speculate right now on what can still be sellable in 2025, possibly. There will be sizable change required to the formula.

Myself, I would like to see a little bit of LEG ROOM added to the list. I hate cars with unusable back seats. Me would also like an all wheel drive option with some powertrain. I get that that particular thing on a traditional American pony car is not of the current and past persona, but at least in my case it would at least make the list of cars to consider sometime down the road since I have no means to buy a toy car just for the summer months.

Edited January 26, 2011 by regfootball

[loki]

A 2002 Camaro had a 200 hp V6 and a 305 hp V8.

but that 200hp had just 30lbft less than the 3.6 now, and the 5speed manual was rated 31mpg. which it takes a 6speed and DI to get those ratings (even though they've changed)

the ls1 had, what. 350lbft too? a 5.0L should beable to make that now.

yes times have changed, back then it was bigger and heavier than mustangs and could cause them headaches in the right hands, just like now. has it never been like that? if they want to change the formula, put a different name and design with it.

[SAmadei]

IMHO,k the Camaro is and always will be a muscle car.

The Camaro has always been a 'Pony Car', not a 'Muscle Car'.

Granted some would argue that the current Camaro is based on a full-size platform and could be argued that makes it a muscle car. I'm not going there.

Perhaps being a Pony Car, that gives GM the excuse to go 4 cyl... considering that many Mustangs and Camaros have already sported them.

[Camino LS6]

2002 Camaro SS: 345HP and 28 MPG .

[hyperv6]

2002 Camaro SS: 345HP and 28 MPG .

Looks good on paper but if driven as it normally is it is not even close. It still is good for a V8 but daily driven as it normally would be 20 MPG is even difficult.

Well that is for the people I know that drive em daily.

Yeah, that's what we said about the 5th gen too.

We said that but GM had not filed chapter 11 and only had the Zeta to work with.

This has since changed and they now have the Alpha.

[hyperv6]

The Camaro has always been a 'Pony Car', not a 'Muscle Car'.

Granted some would argue that the current Camaro is based on a full-size platform and could be argued that makes it a muscle car. I'm not going there.

Perhaps being a Pony Car, that gives GM the excuse to go 4 cyl... considering that many Mustangs and Camaros have already sported them.

The terms Pony car and Muscle car is dead. These cars today are now performance coupes and are far removed from their humble simple beginings. They should also be treated and marketed as such. Time to stop living on the dream of the past and market for todays buyers.

[Camino LS6]

Looks good on paper but if driven as it normally is it is not even close. It still is good for a V8 but daily driven as it normally would be 20 MPG is even difficult.

Umm, no.

That is EPA highway, in the real world they can do much better than that. If you put your foot in it, sure it will drop, but the cars are very capable of cresting 30mpg highway.

[Camino LS6]

The terms Pony car and Muscle car is dead. These cars today are now performance coupes and are far removed from their humble simple beginings. They should also be treated and marketed as such. Time to stop living on the dream of the past and market for todays buyers.

Not just no, but not even close. Even now in a trashed economy and amid fears about fuel prices, these cars are selling very well - and the V8s are leading the sales. While the "pony car" vs. "Musclecar" terminology is debateable, both the general public and auto journalists always refer to these cars as musclecars. Not only that, but they are all retro-styled and share the same basic configuration of their legendary forbears. If anything, they are more musclecar now than they were back then.

That's the reality of this market.

[NOS2006]

A 2002 Camaro had a 200 hp V6 and a 305 hp V8. Today you can easily top both those figures with a turbo 4 and a V6, even a turbo V6. I realize you want current car to surpass a 2002 model, thus I'd still throw a 400+ hp V8 as the range topper. The Camaro sells now because it has been gone a while so there is pent up demand, plus it looks good. But to me it still is a bit of an old guy's muscle car. I think it would be even better once downsized a little so it has size and weight of the Mustang, and a turbo 4 getting 31-33 mpg is added. Less weight also = better handling.

If the Camaro starts its 6th Gen in 2015 and is comparing itself to 2002, that'd be like the engineers working on the 2002 comparing it to the '89. I guarantee that didn't happen.

Looks good on paper but if driven as it normally is it is not even close. It still is good for a V8 but daily driven as it normally would be 20 MPG is even difficult.

Well that is for the people I know that drive em daily.

I know of multiple people with LS1 F-Bodies. I'm guessing most of your friends with them have the 4-speed autos. The 4 speeds didn't return very good MPGs, but the 6-speed manuals consistently returned over 30 MPG highway. Same with the Corvette.

[Camino LS6]

Yes indeed, the 2002 F-bods had a near-perfect balance of power and economy. They really were one of the best-balanced peformance packages ever sold. The interiors and materials weren't anything to write home about, and they had other shortcomings, but as an overall package they were impossible to beat even against cars well above their price class.

I wouldn't mind having another one as a daily driver.

[Chazman]

We said that but GM had not filed chapter 11 and only had the Zeta to work with.

This has since changed and they now have the Alpha.

Yeah, I hear ya. But the 5th gen would have been on Zeta even without BK. There just wasn't the political will to create an appropriate architecture at the time - no money either. What GM has created here, is not a pony car with mass appeal, it's one which only targets the Camaro faithful - and not even all of them. Sure, it's initial sales volume was good, but it also required an 8 year hiatus and 18 month model year to hit 100K units. It's sales volume has recently decreased dramatically.

I applaud GM for it's expressive sheetmetal, but I see the market for a 4000 pound pony car with poor visibility fairly limited now that the pent up demand appears met. GM really needs to quicken it's step on the 6th gen, I really don't see the sales picture looking pretty for the 5th gen, post 2014.

[hyperv6]

I know of multiple people with LS1 F-Bodies. I'm guessing most of your friends with them have the 4-speed autos. The 4 speeds didn't return very good MPGs, but the 6-speed manuals consistently returned over 30 MPG highway. Same with the Corvette.

The truth is most cars will turn good highway MPG as over driven as they are.

The real thing is everyday driving and no being easy on them. The MPG's drop fast. The simple fact is if the V8 got so much better all around MPG. we would not see so many 4 and 6 cylinders on the market and companies scrambling to make the V8's better.

The LS does very good for what it is but it is not going to be enough. This is why they are working on the new engine now. Also note GM stated the RWD sport sedan would be sold in limited because numbers they can't afford the MPG hit.

The 1 to 2 MPG means a lot anymore to the MFG.

[hyperv6]

Yes indeed, the 2002 F-bods had a near-perfect balance of power and economy. They really were one of the best-balanced peformance packages ever sold. The interiors and materials weren't anything to write home about, and they had other shortcomings, but as an overall package they were impossible to beat even against cars well above their price class.

I wouldn't mind having another one as a daily driver.

The handling and performance were never the issue. The real issue was it was a car for male buyers and little appeal to most female buyers. When they are half the market it really hurts overal sales.

[67impss]

So make a sports sedan for females and ignore the 49-48% of the population? The women don't care for performance cars so why oh why would GM take that approach all the while driving away the current market? The same approach GM took on the B/D bodies giving Ford 15 years of monopoly in Police/Taxi & Old folks/performance markets

[NOS2006]

48-49% of the population... if all of them are single and straight. A lot of men have to get their wife's approval to spend the $30k+ it takes to get an SS.

[hyperv6]

So make a sports sedan for females and ignore the 49-48% of the population? The women don't care for performance cars so why oh why would GM take that approach all the while driving away the current market? The same approach GM took on the B/D bodies giving Ford 15 years of monopoly in Police/Taxi & Old folks/performance markets

The reality is many women like sporty but do not car for the mega HP. Men want the performance and will live with sporty.

The Mustang proves that this kind of car can be met. To make a women happy they want a trunk and to be able to get in or out in a skirt. They also want a car that is easy to see our of and drive. For the most the Mustang meets this.

The 4th gen F body was a Vette with a back seat. Women had a hard time seeing out of it since they could see little of the long nose and it sat low that getting in and out was not appealing to many.

The fact is if you want to sell cars today in any great numbers you need to meet the market demands and half the market is women. You can not ignore either side anymore and try to meet both in the middle.

The Vette is low enough production it matters little but when you are trying to move six figures you need ever possible buyer. You leave any sales on the table you are just wasting time and money.

People think killing Pontiac was bad. It is 100 times worse to limit any car to half the market.

Edited February 2, 2011 by hyperv6