6th gen Camaro info.

[Chazman]

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f144/sixth-gen-camaro-story-fallout-99614/

Let me address afew points.

1) I read an interwebz rumor that the next V8 will displace 5.5L.

The 5.5L bore/stroke ratio was developed at substantial expense for the C6.R racing program in order to homologate the Corvette for GT2. There are no plans to put this displacement in production.

2) There are no plans for an Alpha Camaro because I hear that GM has a secret program to lighten the Zeta Camaro.

So secret in fact, that GM doesn't even know about it. Something like that would require a huge investment, one which GM won't spend on an orphaned platform. The Alpha Camaro is indeed coming.

3) A 4 cylinder Camaro! That sucks.

Hey listen, if you want to still buy a rip snorting smallblock V8 Camaro in an era of 35.5 mpg CAFE, you'd better pray that Chevy sells a buttload of 4 banger Camaros.

4) What, no V6?

The 6th gen may or may not have a V6. We couldn't get confirmation either way. But for CAFE and marketing reasons, the I4/V8 product mix is confirmed and joined at the hip.

5) 7 and 8 speed transmisions are stupid.

I don't think we're going back to Powerglides and T-10's boys and girls. If adding a gear or two can squeeze another bit of mpg on the EPA test loop, well that's what needs to be done. See "if you still want a V8" above.

6) It's impossible to have any info on the 6th gen because myself and the site I frequent have no info on it.

Ooops sorry. If anyone wants to question the veracity of the information we've put into the 6th gen story feel free to challenge it here. As nsap has mentioned, we are very careful to confirm through multiple sources what we post. Expect more to come.

[Camino LS6]

Hmmm

[loki]

so 4 cyl turbos... either the "lnf" or a 2.5 low pressure turbo... could work well, if the gen6 is lighter by.. a few 100 lbs.

[hyperv6]

With GM being so dark on new products we will hear a lot of crazy stories before the 6th gen arrives.

Right now I was told not to believe much on the Supercharged Camaro as there is a lot of false info on it out righ now. Even to the point some are thinking that it may not even be a Z/28.

Also some good info on the restyle of the present inteior. Don't expect much. It will be a light redo as with a new car coming there is no need to spend a ton of money on it. I suspect we will see changes like a Steering wheel and shift knob as they are not real popular.

As of now I would not get too wrapped up on the new Camaro yet as We pretty much knew the Alpha was coming and we all already know a 4 cylinder will play a larger roll this time. It has too. I also suspect the V8 will be here but the numbers may be more limited than before. It will either have to have a V6 or have a powerful 4 cylinder with a lot less weight to really make much impact. A V6 is a hard sell as it is in this class but a 4 would really be challange to many traditional buyers.

The other intersting part is how will GM play with the styling. Do they abandon the Retro look or do they keep with a Retro/Modern style? Say like a modern 1970 update like the 5th did on the 1969.

I know the answers will come but I suspect it will be a while before the truth is learned.

[Chazman]

6th gen styling is a complete mystery right now. I'm working on it.

[NOS2006]

6th gen styling is a complete mystery right now. I'm working on it.

I hope to God it's a modern take on the '70 1/2....

[Camino LS6]

I hope to God it's a modern take on the '70 1/2....

I'm right there with you on this.

Smaller, lighter, and styled like the '70 1/2 would be a fine recipe.

One thing these guys are wrong about is the lightened Zeta - it is happening. I sure would love to see this new Alpha Camaro sitting in the showroom next to a new Zeta Chevelle.

All would then be right with the world.

[ocnblu]

What a refreshingly thoughtful idea. Now if we could just get CAFE off our backs and let THE CONSUMER decide what kinds of vehicles to buy, the world would be normal again.

EDIT: what are those red marks for? Pull your heads out of your asses and show yourselves!

Edited January 22, 2011 by ocnblu

[hyperv6]

The 5th gen at one time had a 70 and a half like roof on the car. This was before they went with the styling they have now. I hope they do a better job on the new car if they go this way than they did on that one. It was not very nice in the photo's that made it out of GM. They made the right choice with what they did.

Camino How about they take the drawings of the Buick 2+2 that we posted and make it into a Camaro. It is a good design and if Buick never uses it then make it a Camaro.

I wonder how many wrong cover drawings on Car and Driver we will have to see before we learn the truth. LOL!

If they do go a little retro I hope it is just that a little with a modern edge. They hit a good balance with the present car. I just hope they do not try to make the show car into the street car. I would like the street car to be made into the show car so it is a little more real world friendly. I like the present car and could live with the issues but many real world buyers reject them. These are sales Chevy needs.

Edited January 22, 2011 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

The shape of the Buick Avant lends itself perfectly to adaptation to second gen Camaro styling - you read my mind there, Hyper.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Camino LS6

[Robert Hall]

I wonder how many years out, though the 6th gen is...3-5?

[Camino LS6]

I'd bet closer to 3 than 5.

[Camino LS6]

I think the recently deceased Solstice coupe could also inform the design of the 6th gen.

[hyperv6]

Well the ATS is the first Alpha I believe and that is a 2014 based on reports.

I think we are looking at at least 2014 for a new 2015 for the new Camaro.

One thing to keep in mind is Chevy now being a world brand the new car will have to not only appeal to Americans as a pony car but also to the world with world class performance. The new Mustang is proving to give the Pony car image with BMW like handling and performance.

A smaller car will help in world apeal as most people outside the states want a daily driver that is very big and only a 2+2.

I think now is the time to evolve the pony car beyond it's retro ideas. These are good cars that need to move forward and advance what they could be. As we know they can not remain what they are 4,000 pound coupes selling 80% V8 engines. The new regs just have no place to keep the status quo. So now is the time to do this and do it right or the Pony car will die.

I see a need for the future of a Very good 4 cylinder option with a V6 that has power but better than V8 MPG. The V8 I see still in the picture but how many they sell will be based on the lower cars. If they fail to make the lower car move the V8 will become a very expensive and limited option. There could be a time that the V8 could be a very hard to afford car for most people.

While I see a updated 2.0 Turbo as a very good engine in a smaller Camaro the problem will be to sell this to the fan base. Too few really know how good this could be but would never consider it due to the cylinder count. It is just hard to defeat preconceived ideas.

It will be intersting to see how GM deals with the changes they have to face. They will have to make some gambles on making the right choice to be where they need to be. The 6th gen is not just another update but a total reform and adjustment for the model. They thought the 70's bumper and emissions laws were tough this is even more difficult.

[hyperv6]

The shape of the Buick Avant lends itself perfectly to adaptation to second gen Camaro styling - you read my mind there, Hyper.

I suspect the Buick will show up some where or at least parts of it will. GM seldom throws away good styling.

Many never knew the 4th gen styling started out as the still born 1990 Fiero GTP. The design was rehashed to meet the needs of a Front engine car.

[Camino LS6]

Well the ATS is the first Alpha I believe and that is a 2014 based on reports.

I think we are looking at at least 2014 for a new 2015 for the new Camaro.

One thing to keep in mind is Chevy now being a world brand the new car will have to not only appeal to Americans as a pony car but also to the world with world class performance. The new Mustang is proving to give the Pony car image with BMW like handling and performance.

A smaller car will help in world apeal as most people outside the states want a daily driver that is very big and only a 2+2.

I think now is the time to evolve the pony car beyond it's retro ideas. These are good cars that need to move forward and advance what they could be. As we know they can not remain what they are 4,000 pound coupes selling 80% V8 engines. The new regs just have no place to keep the status quo. So now is the time to do this and do it right or the Pony car will die.

I see a need for the future of a Very good 4 cylinder option with a V6 that has power but better than V8 MPG. The V8 I see still in the picture but how many they sell will be based on the lower cars. If they fail to make the lower car move the V8 will become a very expensive and limited option. There could be a time that the V8 could be a very hard to afford car for most people.

While I see a updated 2.0 Turbo as a very good engine in a smaller Camaro the problem will be to sell this to the fan base. Too few really know how good this could be but would never consider it due to the cylinder count. It is just hard to defeat preconceived ideas.

It will be intersting to see how GM deals with the changes they have to face. They will have to make some gambles on making the right choice to be where they need to be. The 6th gen is not just another update but a total reform and adjustment for the model. They thought the 70's bumper and emissions laws were tough this is even more difficult.

I agree - to a point.

I think the Solstice points the way toward making a 4/8 Camaro strategy work. The GXPs were real performers, and the V8 conversions were monsters.

The current Camaro is large and heavy by toady's standards, which makes the appellation of "pony car" a bit of an ill fit. The originals slotted in at a much different place within the market of their day. Striking the right balance here will be critical. The V8 is a requirement if the name is Camaro, but the rest is subject to change.

I also see what Ford is doing with the new Boss 302 as a real factor which Camaro needs to address. A well-executed Z/28 on Alpha could be a knockout punch. If that is in the plan, I could see the current supercharged car being released without the Z/28 badge.

[ocnblu]

I see no problem with 4,6 and 8 availability. There are precedents... early Nova, '82 F-body.

[dwightlooi]

The engine may be will most likely be a 2.0 or 2.4 based on a Gen III Ecotec. Possibly fortified with a turbocharger. But it wouldn't be an LNF. The Gen 6 Camaro is NOT around the corner; it is 3~4 years away. The LNF will be 10 years old by then. Hey maybe it'll even be a 3.1 liter pushrod which is actually a pretty neat idea if you don't mind a little roughness that seeps through the twin balancers.

Here are the possible contenders:-

2.0 Ecotec³ DOHC-16v DI-VVT Turbo (High Boost; ~ 20 psi)

Bore x Stroke: 86 x 86 mm

Displacement: 1998 cc

Compression: ~9.7:1 (est)

Power: ~300 @ 6000 rpm

Torque: ~270 @ 2800~5800 rpm

Fuel: 91 Octane

2.4 Ecotec³ DOHC-16v DI-VVT Turbo (Low Boost; ~ 13 psi)

Bore x Stroke: 86 x 86 mm

Displacement: 1998 cc

Compression: ~9.7:1 (est)

Power: ~300 @ 6000 rpm

Torque: ~270 @ 1800~5800 rpm

Fuel: 87 Octane

3.1 Gen V Pushrod-8v DI-VVT Turbo (Very Low Boost; ~ 9 psi)

Bore x Stroke: 103.25 x 92 mm

Displacement: 3081 cc

Compression: ~9.7:1 (est)

Power: ~270 @ 5000 rpm

Torque: ~300 @ 1600~4600 rpm

Fuel: 87 Octane

[loki]

any fuel estimates with... a 3500lb vehicle, 6 speed?

[Oracle of Delphi]

6th gen styling is a complete mystery right now. I'm working on it.

Not to me!

[Chazman]

I wonder how many years out, though the 6th gen is...3-5?

MY 2016 is what we're hearing. Wish they could move it up, the next gen Mustang is 2014.

BTW, in case you guys didn't know, I'm the one who wrote that as a follow up to a larger piece.

Not to me!

Give us a hint!

[ocnblu]

I prefer the '67-'69, '70-'73, and to a lesser extent, '82-'92 and '98-'02. I despise the mandatory rear spoiler on the '93-'02, a feature also foisted on Pontiac Firebird. '74-'81 were just too fat looking. The new one is of course a knockout, if a little big around the glutes.

Edited January 22, 2011 by ocnblu

[hyperv6]

I agree - to a point.

I think the Solstice points the way toward making a 4/8 Camaro strategy work. The GXPs were real performers, and the V8 conversions were monsters.

The current Camaro is large and heavy by toady's standards, which makes the appellation of "pony car" a bit of an ill fit. The originals slotted in at a much different place within the market of their day. Striking the right balance here will be critical. The V8 is a requirement if the name is Camaro, but the rest is subject to change.

I also see what Ford is doing with the new Boss 302 as a real factor which Camaro needs to address. A well-executed Z/28 on Alpha could be a knockout punch. If that is in the plan, I could see the current supercharged car being released without the Z/28 badge.

Well the Solstice is gone and I really don't see much there connecting the Camaro other than a more fastback roof line. On the engine front the V8 was never production in the Solstice and for the most more a GM show car or Mallet product.

It will be safe to say it will have some kind of V8 but only on the top level. With Ford looking to the Ecoboost possibly in the GT we may see Chevy make a similar move. Ford may only offer the V8 in the special editions when it is all said and done.

GM will be interesting to see what the new Chevy V8 is as the new Ford is really a sweet engine. The sound alone of the Boss is great as it the flat power band.

Seeing the Camaro sharing the Alpha with the ATS should be a benifit to the Camaro. The Alpha will see funding in development that the Camaro would have never seen just on their own. This can lead to better suspension hardware and other drive line parts that could help upstage the Mustang.

Yes it is more and more looking like the new Supercharged Camaro will have some suprises. Much of what has been said about it is false and when inside people like Scott Settlemire still say "what Z/28" knowing full well the supercharged cars are out and about point to hint of a new name. Scott is well know for telling us things with out saying them, Camino knows what I mean. My pick for the supercharged Camaro is ZL1 to go with the ZR1.

Note too the new Supercharged Camaro may have more power than the present CTS V as I expect both cars might see a gain in their engines in the next year or two.

If the Camaro is to beat the Shelby it will need more HP. Also I expect that the ZR1 will see a boost too as it still has more room for power. It was tested to 720 HP and still passed emissions and durability testing when it was developed. I suspect a special ZR1 before the end of the present C6 car.

As for the 3.1 push rod engine???? what the hell if you are going to do that lets bring back the Iron Duke too. LOL!

By 2015 we will have many new and many upgraded engines from GM. They will be lighter, smaller and more efficent. They will sport technology we do not have now and Direct Injection company wide. While we may get good MPG out of engines like the present LS it is not going to be enough in a few years. Gains of even a MPG or two will mean a lot.

The one thing for sure is predicting the future will be difficut. We will not see small changes but large changes with little hints they are are coming. GM is not talking anymore so we will see few clues and a lot of misinformation. People will pick up on anything that looks offical just because the lack of into. Just note the people who picked on the ATS engine ideas that thought they were real.

No matter what the Camaro really needs to get people to buy the non V8 car this time. It will need the MPG of the lesser cars. They failed with the present car this time but next time they will not get a free pass on it. It will be either sell more smaller engines or get less big engines.

Edited January 22, 2011 by hyperv6

[dwightlooi]

any fuel estimates with... a 3500lb vehicle, 6 speed?

About 20~23 City, 30~35 Hwy assuming the aerodynamics is not horrible. A lot of it depends on the selection of the final drive ratio. It also depends on whether GM will put in new technology like continuously variable lift & duration (which essentially gives you variable compression).

[Chazman]

About 20~23 City, 30~35 Hwy assuming the aerodynamics is not horrible. A lot of it depends on the selection of the final drive ratio. It also depends on whether GM will put in new technology like continuously variable lift & duration (which essentially gives you variable compression).

I wouldn't be surprised if a version of e-Assist makes it into the base car.

[smk4565]

The problem with Camaro, Mustang, Cadillacs, or any of these performance oriented products, is that they are trying to be like the European and Japanese products, while also being like a 60s era muscle car. Some want it small so it handles like a 370Z or 3-series, others want a 6 liter V8 so it is like a 1967 GTO. You can't please everyone, and a car like the Mustang is stuck with a solid rear axle, Camaro is on a heavy full size sedan platform, as is the Challenger. So the Detroit 3 is left trying to put square pegs into round holes in their never ending chase of the imports.

[CanadianBacon94]

The problem with Camaro, Mustang, Cadillacs, or any of these performance oriented products, is that they are trying to be like the European and Japanese products, while also being like a 60s era muscle car. Some want it small so it handles like a 370Z or 3-series, others want a 6 liter V8 so it is like a 1967 GTO. You can't please everyone, and a car like the Mustang is stuck with a solid rear axle, Camaro is on a heavy full size sedan platform, as is the Challenger. So the Detroit 3 is left trying to put square pegs into round holes in their never ending chase of the imports.

you seem to miss the fact that the six litre V8 you quote would fit in that three sires, and be not just more powerful, but lighter also

[dado]

The problem with Camaro, Mustang, Cadillacs, or any of these performance oriented products, is that they are trying to be like the European and Japanese products, while also being like a 60s era muscle car. Some want it small so it handles like a 370Z or 3-series, others want a 6 liter V8 so it is like a 1967 GTO. You can't please everyone, and a car like the Mustang is stuck with a solid rear axle, Camaro is on a heavy full size sedan platform, as is the Challenger. So the Detroit 3 is left trying to put square pegs into round holes in their never ending chase of the imports.

Small blocks are small engines (compered to other v8 engine)and you can make a small light car with small block v8. And I don't see camaro with 4.0 l v8 revving to 9000 rpm as a future for camaro. Maybe i'm wrong.

Yes camaro should lose weight.... Challenger (well it was always heavier than both camaro and mustang wasn't it).

Now Cadillac is another story in another thread. This is the car that goes against 3 series, c klass etc (not camaro, challenger or mustang).

[hyperv6]

The problem with Camaro, Mustang, Cadillacs, or any of these performance oriented products, is that they are trying to be like the European and Japanese products, while also being like a 60s era muscle car. Some want it small so it handles like a 370Z or 3-series, others want a 6 liter V8 so it is like a 1967 GTO. You can't please everyone, and a car like the Mustang is stuck with a solid rear axle, Camaro is on a heavy full size sedan platform, as is the Challenger. So the Detroit 3 is left trying to put square pegs into round holes in their never ending chase of the imports.

They are only trying to give the market what they want with the parts they have.

The reality of it is that many people want the dream of the old car with all the benefits of today. If any of them built a car to the level of say 1969 people would reject it. The cars back then did not stop, turn and must did not go as well as todays cars. Don't fall back on the old lie of well it was the tires. The fact is many of these cars would not keep with todays drivetrains even with the same tires. The real truth is there are many 4 cylinder Turbo and V3 car they would not keep with.

Todays market is more diverse. People want a car the echo's the past but performs like any other modern car. So today makers are challanged with the task of taking a little styling of the past and putting it into a car of today.

Originality today only counts at car shows and in the hands of collectors. Most cars restored to the original tune of the car often don't get driven anymore. Like the Mustang or not they have a good formula going right now.

Just as everything else we discuss here hardware wise we need to keep an element of marketing in this. It is as much or more what the public preceives that sells the car as what rear axle it has.

[loki]

About 20~23 City, 30~35 Hwy assuming the aerodynamics is not horrible. A lot of it depends on the selection of the final drive ratio. It also depends on whether GM will put in new technology like continuously variable lift & duration (which essentially gives you variable compression).

without that tech, i'd say the v6. just for the almost immediate 300lbft, and the general ease of working on a IBC compared to a OHC engine. beable to chug on the highway...

and it would keep the camaro to not have a 4cyl for a little longer.

Edited January 23, 2011 by loki

[Camino LS6]

Well the Solstice is gone and I really don't see much there connecting the Camaro other than a more fastback roof line. On the engine front the V8 was never production in the Solstice and for the most more a GM show car or Mallet product.

Not what I meant.

I see what GM and Mallet did with the Solstice as illustrative of what can be done with a small RWD car. Both the shape of the coupe, and the use of 4 and 8 cylinder engines. It is just an exemple of what is possible in a smaller, lighter Camaro on Alpha. The Solstice shows what is possible.

[hyperv6]

Not what I meant.

I see what GM and Mallet did with the Solstice as illustrative of what can be done with a small RWD car. Both the shape of the coupe, and the use of 4 and 8 cylinder engines. It is just an exemple of what is possible in a smaller, lighter Camaro on Alpha. The Solstice shows what is possible.

I understand and know GM pretty much can build anything possible if GM wants to make it happen. Hyundai has already pretty much already entered the RWD small coupe with 4 and V6 market. It is accpeted but still not like a SS or GT.

This is how I see it. GM needs a 4 and 6 that would steal V8 sales. Plain and simple they need to get people to go for the smaller engines. They need to appeal to someone like yourself and ask what kind of car would it take to get a V8 only guy into a smaller engine package. But they also need to better attract the female buyers as the present car just has not done that.

Any idiot can sell a V8 to anyone but to sell a smaller performance engined coupe to a gear head is a real challange. The company that figures this out will fundamentally change the Pony car market.

The plain fact is the original idea of the Pony car is a myth today and lives on in styling only. Todays cars are real performance coupes and should be treated as such. While they are fast and fun to drive they are no longe cheap and basic as they originally were concieved. They have more in common with a 3 series than a Nova or Falcon. I wonder if they started marketing them as such if that would change things. I am not saying competing with the 3 series head to head as that is what the ATS is for. But on a cheaper level they can create a new nich for these cars. The world has changed as well as the market so we should expect change in the cars too. So many vehicles are changing as adapting to new market trends why should the pony car remain frozen in time.

In place of being the smaller cheaper muscle car as they were in the 60's make the the smaller cheaper sports coupe of today. The Camaro could become the stepping stone to the ATS as the ownw gains more income as he ages.

[Camino LS6]

If you are attempting to move buyers from V8 to V6 and fours, Camaro is not the right nameplate to do that with. I'm not saying that such cars can't be sold successfully, rather that you will not be moving any of the current V8 buyers to a non-V8 Camaro (or Mustang for that matter).

I would be far more likely to be interested a small RWD car that doesn't have its identity tied up in a V8 heritage if it is to be powered by a 4-banger.

Cars that have that heritage would only appeal to me in V8 form. But A turbo 6 in a Buick Avant would get my attention.

Those of us who are the V8 musclecar faithful will never opt for lesser engines in cars with those nameplates. Trying to move this group of buyers in that way is foolish. New cars have to be created for the new engines rather than twisting a square peg into a round hole.

As long as Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, and the like exist, they will need optional V8 power. If that can no longer be done, it's time to retire them gracefully.

All legends have a lifespan.

[hyperv6]

If you are attempting to move buyers from V8 to V6 and fours, Camaro is not the right nameplate to do that with. I'm not saying that such cars can't be sold successfully, rather that you will not be moving any of the current V8 buyers to a non-V8 Camaro (or Mustang for that matter).

I would be far more likely to be interested a small RWD car that doesn't have its identity tied up in a V8 heritage if it is to be powered by a 4-banger.

Cars that have that heritage would only appeal to me in V8 form. But A turbo 6 in a Buick Avant would get my attention.

Those of us who are the V8 musclecar faithful will never opt for lesser engines in cars with those nameplates. Trying to move this group of buyers in that way is foolish. New cars have to be created for the new engines rather than twisting a square peg into a round hole.

As long as Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, and the like exist, they will need optional V8 power. If that can no longer be done, it's time to retire them gracefully.

All legends have a lifespan.

Odds are they will have a option on a V8 but it will become more difficult to offer them in the numbers as they are today at the prices they are at today.

The Question is now that do we have more people that will not adapt to the smaller package than those who will if the package is right. Keep in mind the Mustang buyers are more mixed with females and they have no cylinder envy issues.

Like I said Chevy needs to redefine the segment in away that will appeal to the largest group of potential buyers out there. It will not be easy but with the coming issues they will have to find a way to live on limited V8's. The Sixth Gen will never live on with 80% V8 sales into the future. Unless they really sell the hell out of the Sonic.

I know some will never adapt but most will. The move to 4 cylinder FWD cars was expected to be difficult but today look at the maket. I think they account for 75% of all the cars sold. Chevy may have to abandon some traditional buyers but they will pick up buyers who would have not been a Camaro buyer in the first place. There is a large segment of people who are not Camaro fans out.

A Hyundai Genesis is the right Idea for a package with a limited V8 at the top. The thing GM needs to do is ad a little heritege and a lot better overal package. The Genesis feel cheap and still reeks a little of odd Korean styling. But they do have the engines and size worked out.

If GM had a car that size the 4 and 6 would be fine and even a smaller limited V8 would still be a killer package. The 3rd and 4th gen Camaro's kind of let the Pony car image go away and they took on more a GT kind of image. That same idea would work now but they need to make the car smaller. Imagine if the 3rd gen has just been a little smaller and lighter. The 3th and 4th gens were good cars just too big to be the car they were really trying to be.

It will be intersting to see what they do plan on doing. It is going to be the toughest Camaro GM has ever tired to build. They have a lot of things challanges that need to be delt with.

Edited January 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

the younger set today was more raised on the smaller performance cars, and I think in general like a little smaller car for performance than the massive Camaro these days.

Your comment about the Genesis having the size figured out is pretty close to true. Although I would say a 3 series coupe is more what that up and coming younger set would say is the correct size perf car. and even then some of those want a 1 series or God forbid, something more like a riced up Civic or a Mini Cooper.

The Mustang to me still is a valid size dimensionally but I even think that may have to shrink a touch to survive / thrive in the market 5 years from now.

the younger set today was more raised on the smaller performance cars, and I think in general like a little smaller car for performance than the massive Camaro these days.

Your comment about the Genesis having the size figured out is pretty close to true. Although I would say a 3 series coupe is more what that up and coming younger set would say is the correct size perf car. and even then some of those want a 1 series or God forbid, something more like a riced up Civic or a Mini Cooper.

The Mustang to me still is a valid size dimensionally but I even think that may have to shrink a touch to survive / thrive in the market 5 years from now.

[hyperv6]

the younger set today was more raised on the smaller performance cars, and I think in general like a little smaller car for performance than the massive Camaro these days.

Your comment about the Genesis having the size figured out is pretty close to true. Although I would say a 3 series coupe is more what that up and coming younger set would say is the correct size perf car. and even then some of those want a 1 series or God forbid, something more like a riced up Civic or a Mini Cooper.

The Mustang to me still is a valid size dimensionally but I even think that may have to shrink a touch to survive / thrive in the market 5 years from now.

the younger set today was more raised on the smaller performance cars, and I think in general like a little smaller car for performance than the massive Camaro these days.

Your comment about the Genesis having the size figured out is pretty close to true. Although I would say a 3 series coupe is more what that up and coming younger set would say is the correct size perf car. and even then some of those want a 1 series or God forbid, something more like a riced up Civic or a Mini Cooper.

The Mustang to me still is a valid size dimensionally but I even think that may have to shrink a touch to survive / thrive in the market 5 years from now.

The Genesis to 3 size is what I invision. Some have said the Camaro would be a longer wheel base than the ATS coupe. Not sure how true that is but we know the platform will be flexible per the need.

I would love to see the Mustang size but in 5 years the Ford will shrink some too.

The youth market is the key. They are the future buyers and there will be more of them as time goes on. Many like the smaller cars and engines but they do still have a segment that likes the older cars but it is just not as strong as it used to ber.

The real thing that I feel hurts the Genesis is the lack of history and the fact it's styling while not bad really was to special. I fear they will learn and fix the issues as the Koreans seem to know enought to listen to people who understand the American Market. Just look how fast they are Gaining on the likes of Toyota and Honda. They are aggresive.

[Chazman]

Odds are they will have a option on a V8 but it will become more difficult to offer them in the numbers as they are today at the prices they are at today.

It will be called LT1 and be shared with the C7 Corvette.

[hyperv6]

It will be called LT1 and be shared with the C7 Corvette.

I also see it shared with the CTS V too. With the CTS coupe going away in a few years unless GM changes their minds it would give GM 3 different cars with the same engine. a CTS V sedan, Top Line Camaro and one of the Vettes. This would not cross shop the buyers and help spred the cost over several models.

I just hope they dress them up different. I would like to see more engine detailing like the LS9 in the higher end cars. The plastic covers are ok for the cheaper cars and V6 models.

[Chazman]

I also see it shared with the CTS V too. With the CTS coupe going away in a few years unless GM changes their minds it would give GM 3 different cars with the same engine. a CTS V sedan, Top Line Camaro and one of the Vettes. This would not cross shop the buyers and help spred the cost over several models.

I just hope they dress them up different. I would like to see more engine detailing like the LS9 in the higher end cars. The plastic covers are ok for the cheaper cars and V6 models.

Actually, more than 3 cars. But not the CTS-V, it'll be getting something else.

[NOS2006]

You want the opinion of someone younger? Here it is...

I was raised to love the Camaro and hate the Mustang (and all things Ford). I grew up looking at pictures of Camaros that my dad owned and eventually had to give up to raise my sister and I. I absolutely loved everything to do with the Camaro and felt disgusted when someone even thought to say that the Mustang was better. My first car was a Camaro and, before that even, I joined C&G searching for 5th Gen Camaro pictures. I joined after seeing Walt's chop of a black 4th Gen into what he expected to see out of a 5th Gen.

With the minor exception of '82 (and a few years of I6s), Camaros have always been V6 and V8 only. However, the world is changing. If you can think of one modern car that is pure muscle with no refinement, what do you think of? That, my friends, is the Viper. How have Viper sales been? Poor. So what is Chrysler now doing? Giving it some refinement and coming out with something much more polished than ever before. If even the Viper has to change to accomodate refinement and more efficient packaging, why should the Corvette or Camaro have the privilege to stay the same and not evolve whatsoever? They don't have the privilege and they never will because the only thing that is constant is change, which is ultimately very true for the auto industry.

That being said, the Mustang's latest MCE is exactly what GM is missing. We were told by GM that we were getting an amazing car that would be nearly perfect in every aspect with the 5th Gen Camaro and, on paper, it mostly was. We received a very good exterior design, much better suspension, sufficient engine choices, and more technology than a Camaro has ever seen. With that we also received nearly two tons, a hard plastic dash, and a rather large feeling car. When I sit inside a car, I want something that Cadillac is striving for: "When you turn your car on, does it return the favor?" With the Camaro, it does not. Sure, it was fun to slide a 2SS around some corners and bring it up to 120 on a back country road, but there was something lacking. To me, that something was that it felt large and acted as if it needed all of its 426 ponies to get it going the way it did to push that weight around.

I admit, the car felt large partially because my last two cars have been forced induction four-bangers making around 300 HP with a curbweight of about 1000 lbs less. These two cars feel like they can go all out with little effort whereas the Camaro really needed to be pushed, and my SRT-swapped Neon actually felt quicker than the Camaro (though I can't confirm or deny whether or not it is). I didn't get that special feeling out of the Camaro, though I know GM has the ability to do so. I drove a Corvette Grand Sport about a month later (yes, I know, it's a much more expensive car with a way better suspension, but it is the Camaro's big brother so to speak), and it gave me that feeling from the start. As soon as I sat in the Corvette and felt it just wrap around me, I knew I was in something much more special than the Camaro I had driven. Then I started it and mashed the petal, and that same motor gave me a thrill that I hadn't seen whatsoever in driving the Camaro.

I then test drove a 2011 Mustang a month or so later. I didn't even intend to drive one, but once I sat down in one at the dealership, I knew that I had to. It gave me a much better feel than the Camaro, and I felt more welcome and invited to drive the Mustang. I started it, and drove this V6 Premium model around for a few minutes. There is one word that best describes the Mustang's feel to me over the Camaro's, and that word is tidy. The Mustang just felt tidy. It felt much smaller, lighter, and more nimble than the Camaro. Heck, even the much smaller amount of power in the 3.7L V6 even made me feel better than that of the 6.2L V8 in the Camaro, not because it was more powerful, but because everything about the car felt much more sporty. And this is what these cars are trying to be, deep down they are sports cars, so they must act and feel the part. They are no longer what they used to be, rough racers that are straight-line contenders only. However, they still should embody that spirit and live on as contenders in every aspect that defines a sports car.

As a younger person who could actually afford a Mustang or Camaro, I would choose the current Mustang because it is mostly what these cars need to be as of right now, and that says a lot given my history with these two cars. I've even considering putting down money multiple times to get this car in my driveway.

That being said, the Camaro especially has to get smaller, as GM already realizes. It needs to be more efficiently packaged like I feel the Mustang is. It needs to bring you inside of it and tell you, "I dare you to start me." Whatever happened to having a "bitchin' Camaro" back in the day? That's what we need now, a bitchin' Camaro. If it were to lose the weight necessary and have a tough-sounding I4 turbo with 300 HP, then why not? 300 HP would result in a quick car and, if it is packaged correctly, this engine would give a very respectable fuel economy. I think everybody is offended by four cylinders in this car because it will eventually have a fart can put on it by some little fanboy teenager one day, but turbo-fours tend to sound much better than any N/A four-banger no matter what you do to them and their exhaust and, no matter what happened to the exhaust of such a motor, the sound of it would most likely not disrespect the Camaro name IMHO. Also, if we're already getting 300+ HP out of a mean-sounding I4, then why should we throw a V6 in there? The I4 will be more efficient, possibly lighter, and would be showing its true potential. You don't really need a 350 HP V6 base engine in the car, 300 HP is honestly more than enough, especially if the car is much lighter than the current car.

Will people accept this car though? Maybe not right out of the gate. There will obviously be people snarling about it, but they will still have a V8 option without a doubt, and I don't see that going away for awhile. If the Corvette has a V8 (and it has since the 50s), then the Camaro will as well in some form or fashion. If the base 6th Gen Camaro can almost perform with the 5th Gen SS (as the base 5th Gen nearly can with the 4th Gen SS), then what's the difference in what engine it has? Just build us a car that gives you that 45+ year heritage, sports car spirit, an interior that makes you feel absolutely crazy just sitting in it, the performance (in both power and fuel economy) to outperform anything else in its segment, and call it Camaro. If that doesn't make you happy, no matter the options you're given in the car, then nothing truly will.

[Camino LS6]

Just to clarify NOS, I'm not against any of that.

In fact, it is a good plan to sell the car to younger segments of the demographic.

My point is that attempting to change the taste of traditional V8 buyers of Camaro is foolish. It will never happen.

Expanding the car's appeal to new buyers, on the other hand, makes a ton of sense.

But the core (as demonstrated by sales) wants a V8 in their Camaro. You just don't walk away from that.

[67impss]

One other point NOS the F Gen 3 had I4's in the Iron Dukes though you may WANT to forget that

[smk4565]

I know there is a lot of sentiment for the Camaro needing a big V8, but if GM has to make CAFE choices, it is hard to give the Camaro a V8 when Cadillac isn't getting them. Cadillac is shifting to nearly all V6's aside form the CTS-V and Escalade and the 4-cylinder Cadillacs are coming. To me, Cadillac should still offer better engines than Chevys.

[NOS2006]

To me, Cadillac should still offer better engines than Chevys.

Just because it's a V8 doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

[smk4565]

Just because it's a V8 doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

That is true. But what I don't want to see is the ATS with the 4-banger out of the Malibu or Regal, the XTS with the V6 out of a Traverse, and then the Camaro gets a 420 hp V8. I'm all for affordable V8 cars, I just don't want to see Cadillac get stuck with corporate turbo 4 engines, so GM can continue to make gas guzzler trucks and a muscle car.

If the Camaro is lighter, then turbo 4 and V6 would give it adequate performance, the Genesis coupe has that now, the 370Z is a V6. I'd still offer a V8 for a Camaro Z28 model, but I think a 4, 6, 8 cylinder set up is best, rather than V6, V8, and supercharged V8.

[67impss]

Smk you really just don't get a Camaro do you?

Genesis designed recently with those power trains

370z linage was the anti Pony car with I6 and later turboed to avoid V8's

Camaro base would be OK with turbo Ecotec but the V8 model is REQUIRED to be a pony car. Ford went turbo I4 SVO but NEVER lost sight of the GT/LX 5.0L V8. CryCo played with(very successfully) the Shelby & GLH type cars but they were NEVER Pony Cars though they were that quick. Lets just stop making Pony Cars so we don't upset you, after GM finally gets it's sales numbers in line with Mustang hmmmm we'll let you know how that works out

[smk4565]

I think there should be a V8 Camaro, I just think they should do turbo 4 and V6 engines in a smaller body/platform, rather than a near 4,000 lb midsize car that is rather wide. It's funny that GM will cry CAFE for the reason they killed the Ultra V8 or some rear drive cars, and will put a 1.4 liter in the Cruze, 4 cylinders in the full size Buick, V6 in a range topping Cadillac because of CAFE. Then turn around and put a 6.2 liter V8 in a $30,000 Chevy.

[Robert Hall]

...and will put a 1.4 liter in the Cruze, 4 cylinders in the full size Buick, V6 in a range topping Cadillac because of CAFE. Then turn around and put a 6.2 liter V8 in a $30,000 Chevy.

Nothing wrong with that, different niches..the Cruze and LaCrosse are just FWD appliances, 4cyls are fine in such vehicles. As a largish RWD halo/performance model, the Camaro needs a V8 version.

[hyperv6]

You want the opinion of someone younger? Here it is...

I was raised to love the Camaro and hate the Mustang (and all things Ford). I grew up looking at pictures of Camaros that my dad owned and eventually had to give up to raise my sister and I. I absolutely loved everything to do with the Camaro and felt disgusted when someone even thought to say that the Mustang was better. My first car was a Camaro and, before that even, I joined C&G searching for 5th Gen Camaro pictures. I joined after seeing Walt's chop of a black 4th Gen into what he expected to see out of a 5th Gen.

With the minor exception of '82 (and a few years of I6s), Camaros have always been V6 and V8 only. However, the world is changing. If you can think of one modern car that is pure muscle with no refinement, what do you think of? That, my friends, is the Viper. How have Viper sales been? Poor. So what is Chrysler now doing? Giving it some refinement and coming out with something much more polished than ever before. If even the Viper has to change to accomodate refinement and more efficient packaging, why should the Corvette or Camaro have the privilege to stay the same and not evolve whatsoever? They don't have the privilege and they never will because the only thing that is constant is change, which is ultimately very true for the auto industry.

That being said, the Mustang's latest MCE is exactly what GM is missing. We were told by GM that we were getting an amazing car that would be nearly perfect in every aspect with the 5th Gen Camaro and, on paper, it mostly was. We received a very good exterior design, much better suspension, sufficient engine choices, and more technology than a Camaro has ever seen. With that we also received nearly two tons, a hard plastic dash, and a rather large feeling car. When I sit inside a car, I want something that Cadillac is striving for: "When you turn your car on, does it return the favor?" With the Camaro, it does not. Sure, it was fun to slide a 2SS around some corners and bring it up to 120 on a back country road, but there was something lacking. To me, that something was that it felt large and acted as if it needed all of its 426 ponies to get it going the way it did to push that weight around.

I admit, the car felt large partially because my last two cars have been forced induction four-bangers making around 300 HP with a curbweight of about 1000 lbs less. These two cars feel like they can go all out with little effort whereas the Camaro really needed to be pushed, and my SRT-swapped Neon actually felt quicker than the Camaro (though I can't confirm or deny whether or not it is). I didn't get that special feeling out of the Camaro, though I know GM has the ability to do so. I drove a Corvette Grand Sport about a month later (yes, I know, it's a much more expensive car with a way better suspension, but it is the Camaro's big brother so to speak), and it gave me that feeling from the start. As soon as I sat in the Corvette and felt it just wrap around me, I knew I was in something much more special than the Camaro I had driven. Then I started it and mashed the petal, and that same motor gave me a thrill that I hadn't seen whatsoever in driving the Camaro.

I then test drove a 2011 Mustang a month or so later. I didn't even intend to drive one, but once I sat down in one at the dealership, I knew that I had to. It gave me a much better feel than the Camaro, and I felt more welcome and invited to drive the Mustang. I started it, and drove this V6 Premium model around for a few minutes. There is one word that best describes the Mustang's feel to me over the Camaro's, and that word is tidy. The Mustang just felt tidy. It felt much smaller, lighter, and more nimble than the Camaro. Heck, even the much smaller amount of power in the 3.7L V6 even made me feel better than that of the 6.2L V8 in the Camaro, not because it was more powerful, but because everything about the car felt much more sporty. And this is what these cars are trying to be, deep down they are sports cars, so they must act and feel the part. They are no longer what they used to be, rough racers that are straight-line contenders only. However, they still should embody that spirit and live on as contenders in every aspect that defines a sports car.

As a younger person who could actually afford a Mustang or Camaro, I would choose the current Mustang because it is mostly what these cars need to be as of right now, and that says a lot given my history with these two cars. I've even considering putting down money multiple times to get this car in my driveway.

That being said, the Camaro especially has to get smaller, as GM already realizes. It needs to be more efficiently packaged like I feel the Mustang is. It needs to bring you inside of it and tell you, "I dare you to start me." Whatever happened to having a "bitchin' Camaro" back in the day? That's what we need now, a bitchin' Camaro. If it were to lose the weight necessary and have a tough-sounding I4 turbo with 300 HP, then why not? 300 HP would result in a quick car and, if it is packaged correctly, this engine would give a very respectable fuel economy. I think everybody is offended by four cylinders in this car because it will eventually have a fart can put on it by some little fanboy teenager one day, but turbo-fours tend to sound much better than any N/A four-banger no matter what you do to them and their exhaust and, no matter what happened to the exhaust of such a motor, the sound of it would most likely not disrespect the Camaro name IMHO. Also, if we're already getting 300+ HP out of a mean-sounding I4, then why should we throw a V6 in there? The I4 will be more efficient, possibly lighter, and would be showing its true potential. You don't really need a 350 HP V6 base engine in the car, 300 HP is honestly more than enough, especially if the car is much lighter than the current car.

Will people accept this car though? Maybe not right out of the gate. There will obviously be people snarling about it, but they will still have a V8 option without a doubt, and I don't see that going away for awhile. If the Corvette has a V8 (and it has since the 50s), then the Camaro will as well in some form or fashion. If the base 6th Gen Camaro can almost perform with the 5th Gen SS (as the base 5th Gen nearly can with the 4th Gen SS), then what's the difference in what engine it has? Just build us a car that gives you that 45+ year heritage, sports car spirit, an interior that makes you feel absolutely crazy just sitting in it, the performance (in both power and fuel economy) to outperform anything else in its segment, and call it Camaro. If that doesn't make you happy, no matter the options you're given in the car, then nothing truly will.

Thank you for the honest and pure statment here. I know much of what you stated here rings true with many many people in the market that are not blinded by the Camaro badge.

I know what you mean on the SS. It feels like you are inside it vs the Mustang that with it's size makes you feel more like you are wearing it. I note this is a feeling I have had on other good car like the Vette. I do not mean that is is small and tight but it feels like a part of you and you can feel the car in how it is acting and performing. The best way to state it you feel more one with the car.

Like it or not many are going to have to accpet the Camaro is going to have to make some major changes. In doing so they will have to get it right. When they do this car they need to no comprimise with things like just unsing the only chassie that they have available even if it was too large or heavy.

I think that the Alpha will take care of much of this. The funding should be good since it is sharing with Cadillac here so I hope this will stop them from cutting corners.

This needs to be a car people want to buy badly regardless if it has a V8 or even the name Camaro on it. This need to be a got to have car that appeals to not just the Camaro fan but to anyone who loves great cars.

In the future we all will need to be more open to change as it is coming and if you want performance you will need to be more open minded. If not you may miss some damn good cars.

No matter what Chevy does someone will be upset. THe key is just to get the car right and it will sell itself and create a new heritage to carry it into the future.

[Chazman]

This needs to be a car people want to buy badly regardless if it has a V8 or even the name Camaro on it. This need to be a got to have car that appeals to not just the Camaro fan but to anyone who loves great cars.

.

Yeah, that's what we said about the 5th gen too.