2014 Cadillac ATS - Powertrain Predictions

[regfootball]

just a note.....there was a link about this topic on the front page of -the other site- for a brief scant few minutes....and then it was gone......lol

[Drew Dowdell]

just a note.....there was a link about this topic on the front page of -the other site- for a brief scant few minutes....and then it was gone......lol

Yeah, NSAP pulled down the front page article when I notified him of the correction. The thread is still there.

[67impss]

Well reg plastic cam gears were a industry standard and for the record they were aluminum with plastic teeth to control noise . Only after the chain gets sloppy from stretch does it slap around and chip the teeth off.

[Drew Dowdell]

plastic.....and then word gets around and they wonder why it didn't sell. perhaps they should have engineered it right before on sale date.

The drive chain in a lot of early Toronados was nylon... which is a plastic

The gears on cam sprockets are often nylon.

[hyperv6]

These engine games are fun and as stated predictions are just that... predictions.

With that being said It is hard to predict what we will have by 2015 as engine choices. Even the Push Rod V8 will evolve a lot by 2015 and the engine we have then will differ from the present LS engine as the LS did from the original Small Block.

We will see a lot more technology in the next couple years to help with the MPG on all engine. GM has to move forward on these engines as even as good as they are they must get better.

With GM sitting tight on info anymore it is hard to really gauge what is really going on. Predictions are getting difficult and GM is getting more and more unpredictable. They will be doing things that we neve saw coming.

The one thing I do expect is the ATS will be a car that will be right for once. They will not be hindered by the many issues and lack of funds they had in the past. They will not just have to take just what they can get for once. I hope I am right to expect the unexpected here. I just get the feeling we will see a lot more than just a half pint CTS like we would have gotten 5 years ago.

The real thing is this car needs to be right from engine to tires. It must be not only better in perfromance to the 3 series but it much also have the preception as a superior car. GM can not longer just be tought as the alturnative they need to be the publics choice. So no matter what engines they go with they must convice the public not only in performance but image and preception as being better. This is a case not just for the Engineers but also for Marketing.

[Carguy]

This lineup is so convincing that it has been used on other web sights as the "leaked future Cadillac ATS engine lineup"! Good going (dwightlooi)!!

[Drew Dowdell]

Dwight, can you talk about what you think the engine would look like if you swapped out the V8 for the rumored 3.0TT?

[smk4565]

The ATS-V could be powered by Jesus on a pogo stick and it still wouldn't sell in Europe.

How many horsepower per liter does that make?

[dwightlooi]

Dwight, can you talk about what you think the engine would look like if you swapped out the V8 for the rumored 3.0TT?

Honestly, I believe that if GM does a 3.0TT it'll be a low boost application similar to the BMW 335's 3.0T. I say that for two reasons... firstly, GM is probably not looking for a hot rod engine but a replacement for the 5.3 LS4 engine. Secondly, I suspect it'll be introduced soon with today's transmissions. To that end, the 6L50 and 6T75 medium torque automatic have torque ratings of 332 and 300 lb-ft respectively. There is no step up for transverse/FWD applications and I am presuming that they'll want to use the engine in things like the SRX, ETX or Lacrosse. Such an engine will probably focus on extremely responsive power delivery, good fuel economy (meaning high compressions) and possibly 87 octane compatibility. Spec wise...

Type: 60 degree V-6

Aluminum Block & Heads

DOHC-24v w/ independent intake & exhaust VVT

Displacement: 2997 cc

Bore x Stroke: 89 x 80.3 mm

Compression Ratio: 10.7:1

Aspiration: Twin Turbocharged and aftercooled

2 x Honeywell-Garrett MGT20 turbochargers

10.3 psi Maximum Boost

Horsepower: 320 bhp @ 5600 rpm

Torque: 300 lb-ft @ 1600~5600 rpm

Redline / limiter: 5600 / 6000 rpm

Fuel Injection: Direct Gasoline Injection

Fuel Type: Regular 87 Octane (Recommended)

If they make a high boost version for the ATS-V or Corvette or some other performance car, they'll drop compression, crank up the boost and use bigger turbos. The engine will also probably be tailored to fit within the envelop of the 6L80 transmission

Type: 60 degree V-6

Aluminum Block & Heads

DOHC-24v w/ independent intake & exhaust VVT

Displacement: 2997 cc

Bore x Stroke: 89 x 80.3 mm

Compression Ratio: 9.2:1

Aspiration: Twin Turbocharged and aftercooled

2 x Honeywell-Garrett MGT22 turbochargers

19 psi Maximum Boost

Horsepower: 430 bhp @ 5300 rpm

Torque: 430 lb-ft @ 2200~5200 rpm

Redline / limiter: 5300 / 6000 rpm

Fuel Injection: Direct Gasoline Injection

Fuel Type: Premium 91 Octane (Recommended)

[Lamar]

How many horsepower per liter does that make?

"Ask and ye shall receive."

[NOS2006]

P.S. This is now posted in two separate stories on LeftLaneNews:

1. http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-ats-sedan.html

2. http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-ats-v.html

However, LLN does not cite us, which isn't right. DREW!

[hyperv6]

Honestly, I believe that if GM does a 3.0TT it'll be a low boost application similar to the BMW 335's 3.0T. I say that for two reasons... firstly, GM is probably not looking for a hot rod engine but a replacement for the 5.3 LS4 engine. Secondly, I suspect it'll be introduced soon with today's transmissions. To that end, the 6L50 and 6T75 medium torque automatic have torque ratings of 332 and 300 lb-ft respectively. There is no step up for transverse/FWD applications and I am presuming that they'll want to use the engine in things like the SRX, ETX or Lacrosse. Such an engine will probably focus on extremely responsive power delivery, good fuel economy (meaning high compressions) and possibly 87 octane compatibility. Spec wise...

Type: 60 degree V-6

Aluminum Block & Heads

DOHC-24v w/ independent intake & exhaust VVT

Displacement: 2997 cc

Bore x Stroke: 89 x 80.3 mm

Compression Ratio: 10.7:1

Aspiration: Twin Turbocharged and aftercooled

2 x Honeywell-Garrett MGT20 turbochargers

10.3 psi Maximum Boost

Horsepower: 320 bhp @ 5600 rpm

Torque: 300 lb-ft @ 1600~5600 rpm

Redline / limiter: 5600 / 6000 rpm

Fuel Injection: Direct Gasoline Injection

Fuel Type: Regular 87 Octane (Recommended)

If they make a high boost version for the ATS-V or Corvette or some other performance car, they'll drop compression, crank up the boost and use bigger turbos. The engine will also probably be tailored to fit within the envelop of the 6L80 transmission

Type: 60 degree V-6

Aluminum Block & Heads

DOHC-24v w/ independent intake & exhaust VVT

Displacement: 2997 cc

Bore x Stroke: 89 x 80.3 mm

Compression Ratio: 9.2:1

Aspiration: Twin Turbocharged and aftercooled

2 x Honeywell-Garrett MGT22 turbochargers

19 psi Maximum Boost

Horsepower: 430 bhp @ 5300 rpm

Torque: 430 lb-ft @ 2200~5200 rpm

Redline / limiter: 5300 / 6000 rpm

Fuel Injection: Direct Gasoline Injection

Fuel Type: Premium 91 Octane (Recommended)

These are pretty much the engine GM has already shown in the Holden Show car and the Leno Camaro. It that what you drew upon for these ideas?

I expect most of the Turbo applications GM will have will remain Premium Optional. Marketing likes to keep it that way. One marketing manager told me with Chevy they like to keep the fuel a option as they do not want to scare off some who fear the Premium requred tag. With the electronics of today it is not difficult to do anymore.

I have to agree that these are not too far off. With the present turbo being removed from the SRX I suspect this move was made with the intent of the new engines coming in. GM will not let the Ecoboost go on unchallanged.

[dwightlooi]

These are pretty much the engine GM has already shown in the Holden Show car and the Leno Camaro. It that what you drew upon for these ideas?

I expect most of the Turbo applications GM will have will remain Premium Optional. Marketing likes to keep it that way. One marketing manager told me with Chevy they like to keep the fuel a option as they do not want to scare off some who fear the Premium requred tag. With the electronics of today it is not difficult to do anymore.

I have to agree that these are not too far off. With the present turbo being removed from the SRX I suspect this move was made with the intent of the new engines coming in. GM will not let the Ecoboost go on unchallanged.

Well, it is actually easier with turbocharged engines to make premium optional...

Pinging and knocking, despite what a lot of people think, typically doesn't manifest themselves first or as severely at high rpm, maximum power situations. They manifest themselves first and most disturbingly at low rpm, high load situations. The reason being that pinging and knocking are basically spontaneous conflagrations within the cylinders before the spark fires or before the flame front from the spark ignited combustion reaches the edges of the combustion chamber. One way to think of it is that every firing of a cylinder is a race between the spark initiated flame front and self-initiated flame front from some hot spot within that cylinder. If the spark front wins you have a smooth combustion, if the hot spot front wins you ping. If the latter wins big, you get a knock! While rpms may vary, the flame fronts travel at the same speed. Hence, when the engine is hauling a significant load at low speeds with a wide open throttle, you have the maximum charge density and the maximum amount of time for the ping or knock to actually happen.

There isn't very much you can do about it in a naturally aspirated engine because the compression ratio is what it is. And at a given engine speed and load, the engine will suck in a given amount of air and squish it to a given degree. The most you can do is play with the spark timing and enriching the fuel mixture (which lowers the combustion temperatures and serve to retard the knocking).

In a turbocharged engine, the charge density is a combination of static compression and compression of the intake air charge by the turbocharger. The static compression ratio is usually quite low; about 1~3 points lower than the naturally aspirated version of the same engine. The engine is not going to ping or knock easily at such compressions ratios if there is no boost or very little boost. And, because modern engines have the ECU directly controlling the wastegate solenoid, they can directly control the amount of boost being applied in any situation. Hence, it is pretty easy to tune an engine for high performance with Premium Gas, yet accommodate Regular Gas by trimming down boost pressure the moment mild pinging is detected. Sure the engine may perhaps lose 50 hp in the process. But... it won't blow up.

[hyperv6]

Well, it is actually easier with turbocharged engines to make premium optional...

Pinging and knocking, despite what a lot of people think, typically doesn't manifest themselves first or as severely at high rpm, maximum power situations. They manifest themselves first and most disturbingly at low rpm, high load situations. The reason being that pinging and knocking are basically spontaneous conflagrations within the cylinders before the spark fires or before the flame front from the spark ignited combustion reaches the edges of the combustion chamber. One way to think of it is that every firing of a cylinder is a race between the spark initiated flame front and self-initiated flame front from some hot spot within that cylinder. If the spark front wins you have a smooth combustion, if the hot spot front wins you ping. If the latter wins big, you get a knock! While rpms may vary, the flame fronts travel at the same speed. Hence, when the engine is hauling a significant load at low speeds with a wide open throttle, you have the maximum charge density and the maximum amount of time for the ping or knock to actually happen.

There isn't very much you can do about it in a naturally aspirated engine because the compression ratio is what it is. And at a given engine speed and load, the engine will suck in a given amount of air and squish it to a given degree. The most you can do is play with the spark timing and enriching the fuel mixture (which lowers the combustion temperatures and serve to retard the knocking).

In a turbocharged engine, the charge density is a combination of static compression and compression of the intake air charge by the turbocharger. The static compression ratio is usually quite low; about 1~3 points lower than the naturally aspirated version of the same engine. The engine is not going to ping or knock easily at such compressions ratios if there is no boost or very little boost. And, because modern engines have the ECU directly controlling the wastegate solenoid, they can directly control the amount of boost being applied in any situation. Hence, it is pretty easy to tune an engine for high performance with Premium Gas, yet accommodate Regular Gas by trimming down boost pressure the moment mild pinging is detected. Sure the engine may perhaps lose 50 hp in the process. But... it won't blow up.

Well I have it on my Series III 3800 SC and my Turbo 2.0 and it works well. The knock sensors kick in and it easily makes 20 HP change in the engine. The bottom line the help it gives marketing to hace the option.

Note too the VVT and Direct Injection also pay a roll too. The use of Direct Injection give the engineers more option on controling the point of detination other aspects like temps etc in the cylinder.

[dado]

I've read on gminsidenews that there will be only 5.3 l v8 and 6.2 v8 (codename LT1). I was hoping for 5.5l or maybe 5.7 l v8.oh well

[Drew Dowdell]

You mean just for the V? Because there is no way the ATS is going to be V8 only.

[dado]

You mean just for the V? Because there is no way the ATS is going to be V8 only.

i've meant there will be only two displacement for V8 engine. Not in general that there will be only v8 for ATS. My mistake.of course there will be I4 etc.

It seems 6.2 l is reserved for cars(top models V, etc.) and trucks and 5.3 l is just for trucks.

[hyperv6]

More and more the V8 will be limited to higher end models only and more expensive models. You will be able to get one by you will have to pay for the priviledge.

Price can and will help limit the sales of these engines. It is one of the only ways MFG will be able to force people into smaller cars and engines. IF they remain cheap people will always go for more cylinders no matter if it is the best engine or not.

[SAmadei]

More and more the V8 will be limited to higher end models only and more expensive models. You will be able to get one by you will have to pay for the priviledge.

Price can and will help limit the sales of these engines. It is one of the only ways MFG will be able to force people into smaller cars and engines. IF they remain cheap people will always go for more cylinders no matter if it is the best engine or not.

It would be nice if GM would make parts kits available through GMPP to upgrade 4cyls into 8cyls easily. Them you can build your expensive halos that count against CAFE and yet people can still get around the CAFE issue with a few days in the garage and a potentially relatively cheap option from GMPP.

[dwightlooi]

It would be nice if GM would make parts kits available through GMPP to upgrade 4cyls into 8cyls easily. Them you can build your expensive halos that count against CAFE and yet people can still get around the CAFE issue with a few days in the garage and a potentially relatively cheap option from GMPP.

The Vettes and Vs do not matter much in terms of CAFE. GM sells about 25 million vehicles. Vs and Vettes don't add up to 40000 even on in the best year. That's 0.16% of the total volume, besides Corvette MPG numbers are actually pretty good at 16 city /26 hwy. As far as small fraction of that which are the ZR1s and CTS-Vs... well... they can be average 1 mpg and it won't nudge GM's CAFE numbers by 0.1 (the smallest granularity the feds register for the purpose of collecting the CAFE tax).

[SAmadei]

The Vettes and Vs do not matter much in terms of CAFE. GM sells about 25 million vehicles. Vs and Vettes don't add up to 40000 even on in the best year. That's 0.16% of the total volume, besides Corvette MPG numbers are actually pretty good at 16 city /26 hwy. As far as small fraction of that which are the ZR1s and CTS-Vs... well... they can be average 1 mpg and it won't nudge GM's CAFE numbers by 0.1 (the smallest granularity the feds register for the purpose of collecting the CAFE tax).

...and Camaros... and Caprices (If GM ever allows the general public to buy them).

If GM is going to force people to pay for the privilege of having a V8, there are going to be people out there that want one without paying 6 figures (based on the ridiculous CAFE numbers being floated for the end of this decade). GM could still sell them a 4 cyl Camaro for $25K and then a $9K engine kit, rather than having to fight for the privilege of getting a one of few, dealer overcharged V8 Camaro, which by 2018 or so, could be as rare as hen's teeth and also 6 figures...

[hyperv6]

It would be nice if GM would make parts kits available through GMPP to upgrade 4cyls into 8cyls easily. Them you can build your expensive halos that count against CAFE and yet people can still get around the CAFE issue with a few days in the garage and a potentially relatively cheap option from GMPP.

It is not the cars like the CTS V or even the new ATS V that will be at issue. The Camaro is where the problem comes in. 80,000 V8 Camaro's do add up and effect things as would a Holden based Chevy performance sedan.

GM makes the engines available now and that is all they have to do. The performance aftermaket takes care of the rest.

The real issue will be in states that prevent engine changes like this. The loop holes are getting smaller and smaller in many and already closed in others.

The best thing GM can do is offer Turbo V6 and 4 cylinders and offer tuner kits for them. With a turbo so many things are possible and easy to change anymore. 2 Map sensors and a computer flash can put 50+ HP into an engine with no problems.

Just look at what the Turbo Diesel truck are doing now. A little tuning and 4x4 trucks can out run a Viper in the 1/4 mile. At least till they start breaking parts.

Breakage is one issue on todays cars. So many have clutches, trannys, axles and other parts that are only a little stronger than the stock drive line. Often when you move the power up you have to address other drive line issues.

Edited January 23, 2011 by hyperv6

[SAmadei]

IGM makes the engines available now and that is all they have to do. The performance aftermaket takes care of the rest.

The aftermarket is not taking care of the rest. Where are the kits to convert stock G8s into stock G8 GTs? Granted, its not a terribly popular upgrade path right now, but CAFE has not become insane yet. In any case, it would be a trip to the stealer with a mountain of part numbers.

Remember, we're talking about the future with rumored insane CAFE where GM only dribbles out a handful of V8s to rich people... and the rest of us are stuck with underpowered junk.

The real issue will be in states that prevent engine changes like this. The loop holes are getting smaller and smaller in many and already closed in others.

That's why its key that GM provides the parts as part of a kit, so that any conversion is as smog legal as if it came from the factory.

In the end, if its a OBD2 system or better, the car is watching its emissions and as far as the state should be concerned, if its clean, its legal.

The best thing GM can do is offer Turbo V6 and 4 cylinders and offer tuner kits for them. With a turbo so many things are possible and easy to change anymore. 2 Map sensors and a computer flash can put 50+ HP into an engine with no problems.

Some of us don't like turbos. I don't like driving around my car at high RPMs all day long. I don't like the lag... yeah, they still lag.

Breakage is one issue on todays cars. So many have clutches, trannys, axles and other parts that are only a little stronger than the stock drive line. Often when you move the power up you have to address other drive line issues.

Breakage has been an issue ever since they started to trim part specs to save weight/material/money in the late '70s/early '80s. Nothing new here. Besides, we're not talking about making a 2018 4cyl Alpha Camaro into a 1000 hp monster. We're talking about making a 4cyl alpha Camaro into a 8 cyl alpha Camaro. GM would be giving its enthusiasts a wink by putting the same strength drivetrain in either a 4cyl or 8 cyl Camaro... as its not really saving that much weight to put weak junk in there.

[Cory Wolfe]

Some of us don't like turbos. I don't like driving around my car at high RPMs all day long. I don't like the lag... yeah, they still lag.

You're confused. Turbocharging offers maximum torque at lower RPMs, generally lower than larger displacement engines with similar power output, and maintains that torque through the majority of the power band. This, while generally offering much better fuel efficiency. Lag, if implemented correctly, can be very minimal and hardly noticeable.

[hyperv6]

The aftermarket is not taking care of the rest. Where are the kits to convert stock G8s into stock G8 GTs? Granted, its not a terribly popular upgrade path right now, but CAFE has not become insane yet. In any case, it would be a trip to the stealer with a mountain of part numbers.

Remember, we're talking about the future with rumored insane CAFE where GM only dribbles out a handful of V8s to rich people... and the rest of us are stuck with underpowered junk.

That's why its key that GM provides the parts as part of a kit, so that any conversion is as smog legal as if it came from the factory.

In the end, if its a OBD2 system or better, the car is watching its emissions and as far as the state should be concerned, if its clean, its legal.

Some of us don't like turbos. I don't like driving around my car at high RPMs all day long. I don't like the lag... yeah, they still lag.

Breakage has been an issue ever since they started to trim part specs to save weight/material/money in the late '70s/early '80s. Nothing new here. Besides, we're not talking about making a 2018 4cyl Alpha Camaro into a 1000 hp monster. We're talking about making a 4cyl alpha Camaro into a 8 cyl alpha Camaro. GM would be giving its enthusiasts a wink by putting the same strength drivetrain in either a 4cyl or 8 cyl Camaro... as its not really saving that much weight to put weak junk in there.

Point one] They don't make G8 kits because there are so few G8's out there even less that will ever hace an engine changed since over half were V8 to start with. I know we are talking future but there needs to be a market before you fill it. We have no idea what these cars will need to even address it yet. The cars will come first and then a market can be created if there is enough demand.

Point two] GM is not going to spent the amount of money to make engine swaps possible. This is better left to tuners that can address this. The cost and diffculty og OBD II testing for the different emission laws would be expensive for each and every engine package GMPP already offers. That is why GM lets companies like Mallet and SLP to the dirty work.

Point three] You have not driven a new turbo have you? Lag has become nearly nill and the max torque is flat as Nebraska. Modern turbos hit max torque at just over 2000 RPM in the 2.0 LNF and it stays till just over 5600 RPM. That is 315 Ft-LB only limited by the Transaxle. The Solstice with a better tranny can go 340 FT-lb in the same flat torque curve.

I used to believe like you but have learned better now.

Point four] To build every car V8 ready that has a 4 cylinder would only add to the cost of the entry level car. The whole idea is to keep the cost down. Kind of defeats the whole plan. We are not talking 1,000 Hp. Many times like in the 5.0 Mustangs they used a factory clutch quad that was strong enough for the stock clutch. Any upgrade just a little better would strip the adjuster. The owner would then smoke his clutch in about a month. Little things like this are how far some of these parts are cut and that is why the aftermarket takes care of this.

Finally you have to look at the big picture. Many who will do a engine change will seek a tuner or just do it themselves. There are less and less people who can do it on their own anymore. What few that can would not have issue buying parts needed from Summit or Jegs and doing this on their own. Trust me on this one as I see it everyday.

I like your idea but it is just too expensive for GM for the too few people that would take advantage of it. Lets face it there are few people who can afford $30,000 for a V6 Camaro and then spend another $10,000 on an engine swap. IF they did they would just pay the little more and get the V8 anyways. This is not like the old days swaping a 327 in a old Camaro for the inline 6 that is in there. Besides I feel many of the buyers will ne fine with a 300 HP 4 or 400 HP V6 as they do not have cylider envy. Rememeber most of these folks grew up in 140 HP Hondas and never have owned a V8.

The reality of today is if you want to make changes to a factory car it will cost you money and often a lot of money. That is why the bolt on market has made such a jump and many waste their money on computer chips and air filters in search of 10 HP.

For right now we need to be glad GM is offering crate engines that make it easier and leave it like that.

[pow]

P.S. This is now posted in two separate stories on LeftLaneNews:

1. http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-ats-sedan.html

2. http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-ats-v.html

However, LLN does not cite us, which isn't right. DREW!

LLN is a POS and they aim at the LCD. There's no "news" in LLN.

[dado]

Question for dwightlooi

How much HP could gen V 6.2 l v8 DI produce (in N.A form) and still be "acceptable" (sound, durability,emissions etc) to be put in ATS-V (by GM, not tuners)?

[SAmadei]

You're confused. Turbocharging offers maximum torque at lower RPMs, generally lower than larger displacement engines with similar power output, and maintains that torque through the majority of the power band. This, while generally offering much better fuel efficiency. Lag, if implemented correctly, can be very minimal and hardly noticeable.

Guess all those guys who bought Mallett Kappa cars are confused, too. No replacement for displacement.

I haven't driven an LNF, as I have yet to find one that was installed in a vehicle I could fit in. However, previous turbos have underwhelmed me... Supras, 300ZX, couple more that were awful.

Fuel efficiency? Well, the Solstice LNF spots the GTO/G8 about 1000 pounds and can still only get 4 mpg combined MPG better. I imagine an LNF IN a GTO/G8 would get about the same as a V8 powered GTO/G8.

Lag... I still don't like the slow throttle response in most modern cars. Any turbo lag is eternity compared to that. When the foot goes down, I want a reaction instantly.

There are plenty of other reasons I don't care for turbos, but I'm not going to debate turbos vs whatever further here.

Point two] GM is not going to spent the amount of money to make engine swaps possible. This is better left to tuners that can address this. The cost and diffculty og OBD II testing for the different emission laws would be expensive for each and every engine package GMPP already offers. That is why GM lets companies like Mallet and SLP to the dirty work.

We're talking about a kit to turn 4 cyl Camaros into V8 Camaros. There is no OBD testing to provide a kit that duplicates an OBD existing setup. The kit could be as simple as a parts list where you get 10% off if you buy the whole shebang.

Mallet and SLP go WAY beyond these upgrades... and cost an arm and a leg for that reason.

Point three] You have not driven a new turbo have you? Lag has become nearly nill and the max torque is flat as Nebraska. Modern turbos hit max torque at just over 2000 RPM in the 2.0 LNF and it stays till just over 5600 RPM. That is 315 Ft-LB only limited by the Transaxle. The Solstice with a better tranny can go 340 FT-lb in the same flat torque curve.

I used to believe like you but have learned better now.

Lets install one in an Impala or Camaro so I can try it.

Point four] To build every car V8 ready that has a 4 cylinder would only add to the cost of the entry level car. The whole idea is to keep the cost down. Kind of defeats the whole plan. We are not talking 1,000 Hp. Many times like in the 5.0 Mustangs they used a factory clutch quad that was strong enough for the stock clutch. Any upgrade just a little better would strip the adjuster. The owner would then smoke his clutch in about a month. Little things like this are how far some of these parts are cut and that is why the aftermarket takes care of this.

The 5.0 Fords always had weak parts, even the top cars. This is part of the Ford mantra for supplier pricing... 10% cheaper each year... which led to the '90s Explorer tire blowout disaster. Todays GM cars are better. Look at the W-body transmissions... GM was using 4t60e's and slowly moved everything up to 4t65e's in the late '90s even though the engine power levels stayed the same. It was cheaper to build the better tranny in bigger numbers.

In a 4cyl -> v8 Camaro upgrade, what needs to be upgraded? Clutch, Tranny, driveshaft, Rear and axles (assuming its IRS). Assuming that CAFE lets GM build 5% of the cars with V8s in the 2018ish timeframe, maybe 5000 a year, GM is going to HAVE to share the stronger parts with the lesser cars to make it worth making the 5K V8 powered cars. Whats the manufacturing $$ difference in a 260hp/340tq drivetrain and a 450hp/450tq drivetrain? Maybe a few hundred bucks? (again, manufacturing side, not retail).

Even if you replace the entire drivetrain at the retail level... just really rough guesstimates here... $400 clutch, $1000 manual transmission or $2000 automatic... driveshaft... $300. Rear end... $1000. Axles... $1000. So we added $4-5K to the engine upgrade... but you can recoup some money from the parts sold.

In this timeframe, the enthusiast market is going to be starving... GM would make good headway with a wink and a nudge to the enthusiast that wants to get around CAFE without sitting on a waiting list at the dealership, hoping he'll get to pay for the privilege to overpay for "one of the last V8 interceptors".

Finally you have to look at the big picture. Many who will do a engine change will seek a tuner or just do it themselves. There are less and less people who can do it on their own anymore. What few that can would not have issue buying parts needed from Summit or Jegs and doing this on their own. Trust me on this one as I see it everyday.

85% of Summit and Jegs items only help you build a 30+ year old car or turn your Camaro/Firebird/Mustang/GTO into a smog-disaster that you will never get through emissions again. Sure, the stuff looks good on paper, but I don't see how this stuff passes a visual check. With the exception of a few top end kits for LSx powertrains, most stuff is carbs, carbs and more carbs.

Can't put a carb on a 2010 Camaro and expect the CEL to not come on.

Look at the transmission offerings in Summit or Jegs... you can't buy anything more sophisticated than a 700r4. Or parts for them. Not even a 4L60e. Its not like there aren't plenty of 200-4r, 4L60E, or 4L80E rebuilders out there making monster transmissions and parts.

I like your idea but it is just too expensive for GM for the too few people that would take advantage of it. Lets face it there are few people who can afford $30,000 for a V6 Camaro and then spend another $10,000 on an engine swap. IF they did they would just pay the little more and get the V8 anyways.

In 2010, yes. V8 Camaros are, what... 50-60% of the mix. The discussion at hand is the future... where V8 Camaros are rare and GM and the dealers price them so. The rumor is no V6 in the Alpha... so there is no middle ground.

You will have the choice of a LNF-esque Camaro for $30K or a V8 powered Camaro for Vette prices. In 2018... will that be $60K or $100K?

$30K + $10K (V8 upgrade) -4K (Old engine/drivetrain parts sold on eBay)... 36K would be a better deal than a 50K CAFE-limited edition Camaro. Even if you paid a garage to do it (+1.5K -- 16hr @ $90/h as a worst case scenario).

The reality of today is if you want to make changes to a factory car it will cost you money and often a lot of money. That is why the bolt on market has made such a jump and many waste their money on computer chips and air filters in search of 10 HP.

Buying computer chips is so 1994.

The bolt-on market relies on having a engine to bolt onto. When the V8s are CAFE-limited, what GM stuff (besides the LNF) is going to having any bolt ons? There is nothing out there for the current V6s. Even finding CAI air filter kits for GM 6 and 4 cyl cars is pretty hard. The only V6s I know that you can get a decent CAI for are 10 year old Grand Prixs... and they are NOT cheap.

I'm done following this tangent. If you don't get my point, you aren't going to if I continue. To summarize... if CAFE screws with V8 cars like CARB has screwed with gas containers, people will take unusual steps to return to the status quo. GM can profit from any grassroots effort to circumvent the CAFE rules.

Sometimes I feel like by the time Alpha gets here, we'll ask, "Why bother?"

[hyperv6]

Well it is plain to see you have no clue of the LNF and what it really can do. So anything you argue on it means little since you base everything on older turbo engines that were awful.

As for mpg, if I drove the GTO the same as my SS it would be much more than 4 MPG different. A LS will do ok if you just don't hammer it. My LNF will do much better than the posted numbers even when hammered on. Even in the cold driving hard it has never come close to hitting the 19 City GM post. In the summer driven hard [hitting over 20 PSI boost] it will see an easy 24 City and 31-32 highway. The hypermile SS owners do better. Driven hard A GTO will see 16 MPG.

Lets install one in an Impala or Camaro so I can try it.

Make em 3200 pounds and it is on.

In this timeframe, the enthusiast market is going to be starving... GM would make good headway with a wink and a nudge to the enthusiast that wants to get around CAFE without sitting on a waiting list at the dealership, hoping he'll get to pay for the privilege to overpay for "one of the last V8 interceptors".

Nice idea but then reality sinks in. Most people in the enthisiast market can not handle anything more than a simple bolt on. There are some good builders out there but not as many as one would think. Also the fact someone tearing appart a $35,000 car with a 5 year drivetrain warranty also kills the number of people willing to tear a car appart. Sorry but there is just too small of a market for the do it yourselfers no matter the wink wink nudge nudge.

85% of Summit and Jegs items only help you build a 30+ year old car or turn your Camaro/Firebird/Mustang/GTO into a smog-disaster that you will never get through emissions again.

There is a lot more on the aftermarket than you think. These companies and others offer a lot more than what is just on the web sites and catalogs. Summit catalog is only 5% of what they offer if even that. There is a lot of parts out there offered by many companies that keep the cars legal even in California seeing that it is one of their largest markets. EO numbers are very common as most companies work for the 50 state approval. Are the parts cheap..No but few LS parts are cheap no matter where you get them. Also the parts are not sold in great numbers because few people want to spend that much with a car payment like they are paying and again the warranty comes into play.

Most people so do not mess with the cars till the warranty is out or unless they buy it used.

The discussion at hand is the future... where V8 Camaros are rare and GM and the dealers price them so. The rumor is no V6 in the Alpha...

Might be best to wait and see just what they do. Getting too worked up now is not real smart. I suspect that there will be performace on tap that will top what we have now but it may just come in a smaller package in more ways than one. How can we argue on what could or might be? This is not the first time people are getting worked up with the death of performance claims. I think this is round 4 or 5. Who in 1976 though you would be able to buy a ZR1?

I get your argument but it is not valid unless you just feel the need that you just have to have 8 cylinders as the power is still there even with the smaller engines. GM already has a 4 cylinder SS that will our run 80% of all the SS ever made. Hell my present SS runs is hard to get it to hook up off the line and GM has even added a launch contol to deal with all that all that lag you know.

The Cylinder count issue is much like the mid engine issue. Some think a car has to have the engine in back of the driver to really handle. Well the Vette today proves it is the balance of the car not so much if the engine is in front or behind the driver. Same goes with engine. Some of the worlds most powerful engine are less than 8 cylinders.

If you don't like the new car just keep buying the old used ones. While I hope they keep the V8 I also know it is not the end of performance with the other engines. In fact it quite fun to drive many of them.

Sometimes I feel like by the time Alpha gets here, we'll ask, "Why bother?"

Your last line really speaks volumes. To say this on a car you have no clue about other than it will have 4 wheels is a whole lot short sighted. To make this statment after you drive it would make it acceptable. At this point it is a little too soon to judge the unknown. Kind of like judging the LNF with out driving one. I think this sums up the whole story.

I would like to save your line till the ATS and Camaro are released. It might be pretty funny when the sky does not fall.

Edited January 24, 2011 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

a little bit of a tangent, but i think with regards to the corvette, i think it will matter more for them to add a performance all wheel drive option to the car, instead of them dicking around with moving the engine to the back.

[SAmadei]

Lets install one in an Impala or Camaro so I can try it.

Make em 3200 pounds and it is on.

Are you suggesting everything GM makes in ~2018 will be 3200 pounds or less in order to be LNF-ready?

GM can't even make the new Regal 3200 pounds. No, a 4000 pound Impala or Camaro with one of your miracle LNF engines will be fine.

85% of Summit and Jegs items only help you build a 30+ year old car or turn your Camaro/Firebird/Mustang/GTO into a smog-disaster that you will never get through emissions again.

There is a lot more on the aftermarket than you think.

*Sigh*. Actually, I really doubt there is much on the GM-related aftermarket I don't know about.

Summit/Jegs is not the be all, end all.

These companies and others offer a lot more than what is just on the web sites and catalogs. Summit catalog is only 5% of what they offer if even that.

So whats the purpose of keeping these parts secret?

There is a lot of parts out there offered by many companies that keep the cars legal even in California seeing that it is one of their largest markets. EO numbers are very common as most companies work for the 50 state approval.

Sure, there are EO numbers for a lot of the LSx stuff. But an intake for a LSx that allows use of a carb is never going to get an EO number.

Now, subtract all the V8 parts... and all the listings for generic racing or standard replacement parts (I hardly consider a listing for a LED 194 bulb or a racing fuel cell to be part of the H-body aftermarket) and what is left from Summit and Jegs for GM 4 and 6 cyl cars with EO numbers? Not much.

I get your argument but it is not valid unless you just feel the need that you just have to have 8 cylinders as the power is still there even with the smaller engines. GM already has a 4 cylinder SS that will our run 80% of all the SS ever made. Hell my present SS runs is hard to get it to hook up off the line and GM has even added a launch contol to deal with all that all that lag you know.

OMG, a FWD SS with a problem hooking up? My friend's 1986 Skyhawk had trouble hooking up if you stomped on it, too.

And to compare apples to apples, what percentage of SSes built in the last 10 years will your SS out run? How many of those are V8s?

Sometimes I feel like by the time Alpha gets here, we'll ask, "Why bother?"

Your last line really speaks volumes. To say this on a car you have no clue about other than it will have 4 wheels is a whole lot short sighted. To make this statment after you drive it would make it acceptable. At this point it is a little too soon to judge the unknown. Kind of like judging the LNF with out driving one. I think this sums up the whole story.

I've observed the automotive market for long enough to make an educated guess.

You'll also note I say "Sometimes"...

I know the rules of physics are not going to allow many cars to hit the 35-39mpg CAFE requirements. Sure, a ATS-V will be quite spiffy... but at a niche price... and in numbers that GM won't mind just tacking on the gas guzzler penalty.

But if the Alpha Camaro ends up being primarily a 95% 4 cyl car, as Camino noted in the 6th gen Camaro thread, it should be retired. Imagining that future is like being in 1988 and imagining the Probe-based Mustang future Ford originally intended.

However, even 4cyl LNF-esque Camaros might be too optimistic. After all, no Solstice came close to 35 mpg.

And if we consider eAssist or hybrids, we're looking at more weight, complexity and cost... and more niche ...and we know GM's track record with niche cars... Fiero... Reatta...Allante...EV1... XLR... SSR... GTO... Kappa... G8...

Sure, the CAFE 35-39 mpg requirements might never get enough traction to become a problem, but its clear that GM is taking CAFE quite serious right now... so we're going to get 35-39mpg CAFE influenced cars regardless if we get 35-39mpg CAFE or not.

[hyperv6]

Are you suggesting everything GM makes in ~2018 will be 3200 pounds or less in order to be LNF-ready?

GM can't even make the new Regal 3200 pounds. No, a 4000 pound Impala or Camaro with one of your miracle LNF engines will be fine.

Time will tell.

Summit/Jegs is not the be all, end all.

They are the Walmarts of speed and carry most of the standard market. They only lack the special tuners but in Summits case they even have them with the likes of SLP, Roush and a few others.

So whats the purpose of keeping these parts secret?

Do you really understand how many parts and companies each sell. The catalog would be honestly be 16-20 feet thick if they had everything in it. I do know daily they contiue to add hundred of parts. I should know I so it myself daily. You seem to know as much about the Performance Aftermarket as you do the LNF.

Sure, there are EO numbers for a lot of the LSx stuff. But an intake for a LSx that allows use of a carb is never going to get an EO number.

Now, subtract all the V8 parts... and all the listings for generic racing or standard replacement parts (I hardly consider a listing for a LED 194 bulb or a racing fuel cell to be part of the H-body aftermarket) and what is left from Summit and Jegs for GM 4 and 6 cyl cars with EO numbers? Not much.

Why would an idiot use a carb on a new car. Are you going to put Bias Ply Tires on too? Edelbrock just came out with a supercharger system that is legal 50 states and adds over 100 HP to the present Camaro with no other work. This is just one of many options out there with more coming.

OMG, a FWD SS with a problem hooking up? My friend's 1986 Skyhawk had trouble hooking up if you stomped on it, too.

And to compare apples to apples, what percentage of SSes built in the last 10 years will your SS out run? How many of those are V8s?

Oh that is right you have not even driven the Solstice with the LNF too. As for SS.

My little 4 stock with the GM tune only will run 13.70 [ note my 68 SS stock ran 14.70's] and the Eco is able to handle up to 100 more HP before they recomend a upgrade in pistons and then they can see right up to 500 HP before GM recomends much more in changes. The future engines will only improve upon todays as GM is far from done with this engine.

I've observed the automotive market for long enough to make an educated guess.

You'll also note I say "Sometimes"...

I know the rules of physics are not going to allow many cars to hit the 35-39mpg CAFE requirements. Sure, a ATS-V will be quite spiffy... but at a niche price... and in numbers that GM won't mind just tacking on the gas guzzler penalty.

But if the Alpha Camaro ends up being primarily a 95% 4 cyl car, as Camino noted in the 6th gen Camaro thread, it should be retired. Imagining that future is like being in 1988 and imagining the Probe-based Mustang future Ford originally intended.

However, even 4cyl LNF-esque Camaros might be too optimistic. After all, no Solstice came close to 35 mpg.

And if we consider eAssist or hybrids, we're looking at more weight, complexity and cost... and more niche ...and we know GM's track record with niche cars... Fiero... Reatta...Allante...EV1... XLR... SSR... GTO... Kappa... G8...

Sure, the CAFE 35-39 mpg requirements might never get enough traction to become a problem, but its clear that GM is taking CAFE quite serious right now... so we're going to get 35-39mpg CAFE influenced cars regardless if we get 35-39mpg CAFE or not.

So you have been wrong before about the death of performance?

Time to lean never say never. You may be right about the difficulty of getting a V8 Cheap but we will always have ways to go fast. That is the one constant we have has sinc Benz built his first car.

Lets just wait to see what the ATS offers since it is the first Alpha and then do our complaining if needed. It is a bit foolish to to start swaping engines argue about the unknown.

[dwightlooi]

Question for dwightlooi

How much HP could gen V 6.2 l v8 DI produce (in N.A form) and still be "acceptable" (sound, durability,emissions etc) to be put in ATS-V (by GM, not tuners)?

To put it simply, I'll simply quote GM's powertrain engineer Dave Sczomak (GM Powertrain Advanced Engineering) "Well north of 450hp".

To put it another way... The LS3 engine makes 426hp on 10.7:1 compression without a loud exhaust or lumpy idle. DI will raise compression by at least 1 point to 11.7:1. With no changes in any other areas, a 9.3% increase in compression is worth roughly a similar amount in hp & torque increases. This equates to about 473 hp. Remember, that's compression increase without adding VVT, improving airflow, reducing friction or anything else -- which is highly unlikely. My guess is that Gen V 6.2 is a 450~500hp engine. In the lower half of that range on the ATS-V due to noise and refinement concerns, in the upper half of that range for the brasher Vette.