NAIAS 2011 - Buick - What We've Learned

[balthazar]

IMO, the Buick absolutely has the capability to pull people out of an accord. Better, more harmonious & upscale design in the Buick.

[hyperv6]

Pow,I think you had this in mind!!

Now put that nose on the 3 door turbo coupe and we might be talking. FYI the Wildcat name would be nice. It sounds good to the many who don't remember it and it still has the heritage for the few who do.

[hyperv6]

Silver Arrow II was a forgotten dud, a bare minimal trim car.

I and III were tastefully modified production cars, primarily featuring a chopped top, so unfortunately -tho well-recieved then & now- neither was 'stylistically ground breaking'... as the designs were already released.

The whole point is the XP715 was a god send to Buick when Cadillac refused the Le Salle concept they were offered. The chop top on the 63 Riv show car look great on a already fine looking Riv. I would have 86 the wide whites though and I am thankful Bill did not go for one of his odd colors he liked. For the most the 63-65 Riv is one of the best looking production Buicks made other than the limited 50' Skylark convertible.

I was lucky enough to work on and drive a 12,000 mile example of a 65 Riv GS with the 425 dual quad. I have been in and drove many a Buick and that is one of the best I have driven.

[balthazar]

As originally released, the Silver Arrow I wore big blackwalls, knock-off wires and the Riviera eggcrate grille.

-- -- -- -- --

At some point it gained retro concentric-ribbed hubcaps, wide whites and the thermostatically-operated grille 'doors' (something yet again that was before it's time).

It was redone after '72, because I've seen the original-spec SA I photographed alongside the '72 SA III & Mitchell.

-- -- -- -- --

Color is fine, and Mitchell was not known for offbeat concept colors.

[frogger]

Why not? They're trying the Equinox and Terrain and Traverse. Lexus and Toyota fans are trying the Lacrosse, Regal, and Enclave. So why can't some currently driving one of those brands try the Verano?

IMO the Lacrosse, Regal and Enclave are far more compelling than the Verano, and definitely Acura competition.

[balthazar]

Since I have again (and not without precedent) veered off on a historical tangent, here's the rest of the Riv ancestors:

XP-715:

Earlier proposal:

Can't find an online pic of the clay that Cadillac turned down, also badged 'LaSalle'.

[Robert Hall]

Not to continue to go further off tangent, but were there other Buick concept cars from GM in the 60s or 70s other than the XP715 and Silver Arrows? Don't think I've seen any mentioned in the literature...

[balthazar]

GM as a whole left off the radical concept thing after the '61 Motorama (and there weren't many there, either).

There were plenty of prototypes & internal concepts, and some shown mild trim/equipment cars, but they'll not pop to mind when thinking '60s/70s Buick concepts.

The LaSalle/Riv above was not publically shown.

The '63 Wildcat 445 car was tho:

GM also began issuing 'GM' branded concepts in the '60s, for EX:

'64 GM Runabout

'64 GM -X Stiletto

'69 GM XP 511 Commuter Car

Edited January 18, 2011 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

and to bring it back......

[balthazar]

When is the Verano expected to be in showrooms?

[Drew Dowdell]

When is the Verano expected to be in showrooms?

no later than 4th qtr this year

[balthazar]

Hopefully it's more like mid-summer.

When is the Lucerne projected to discontinue?

[Paolino]

Hopefully it's more like mid-summer.

When is the Lucerne projected to discontinue?

Well, I could have sworn I read it's dead after the 2011 model year, but I can't find proof now. I can't imagine they're going to continue.

[balthazar]

^ If that's right (not saying it isn't), Buick is not gaining any lines ('baby Enclave' aside): Verano in, Lucerne out.

[Drew Dowdell]

I would expect to hear more product information coming by late this year regarding Regal

[regfootball]

Get the Elantra too far out of it's $14,999 + destination bargain basement comfort zone and the gap on interior quality between it and the Cruze or Focus or even Civic and Jetta become rather clear. Even the new Jetta has a higher quality interior than the Elantra. Get someone behind the wheel of a Cruze and the interior quality and power train refinement will tell you why you'll pay $1500 to $2000 more. All two people shopping in this segment who care that the Elantra is 0.3 seconds faster to 60 can go buy an Elantra instead. I'll say it again, Hyundai is more concerned with the "flair" of things like heated rear seats and selling you on that, but then skimping on other small details that don't get bold print in press releases.

GM has really put together two of the best interiors in the respective classes with the Cruze and Verano. The Cruze, BTW, gets the woven headliner the previous generation CTS had. NHV would have made Lexus proud 5 years ago.

Man, pass around whatever it is that Hyundai gave you to smoke. If you had said Kia, you might have had an argument, but you're only looking at it from the bargain basement perspective. If your finances are so tight that you're only looking at monthly payment, then yes the Hyundai may be right for you; but the better quality car in terms of materials and NHV is still the Cruze. I've not driven the Focus, but I've sat in it, and it's handily beats the Elantra as well inside.

i was at the hyundai dealer today looking at the other vehicle i was lookin at and they had an Elantra Limited on the showfloor. Damn nice. the interior is as nice or nicer than the Cruze. I'm on record after driving both (including the Cruze multiple times) that basically the two cars are a wash. Each has strong points and advantages.

You simply have so much GM koolaid pumped into your system, and are so effing stubborn, you cannot for one moment digest the fact that the Elantra is going to kick some major ass in this segment, and when it comes right down to it, the Cruze is no better than the Elantra.

The Elantra is a bangup car and your lack of objectivity in the matter is really frightening. That, and the Cruze is not all of that and box of cotton candy.

The Verano is a Buick Cruze with 5k more tacked onto the price. Nice car, but its not going to make a huge dent in the market.

The Cruze isn't the slam dunk NVH monster you think either. It's quiet after it settles down and doesn't need to shift, but in town driving that little lawn mower engine under hood is quite the buzz bomb in stop and go the way most folks drive these days. The Elantra doesn't need to wind up as much.

The Elantra is a fetchin car. It actually reminds me of what a modern day Alero might look like. I bet an Olds logo on the front and an Alero badge on the back would be perfectly in character to the styling of the car.

Edited January 18, 2011 by regfootball

[Paolino]

I'll put this out there... I have been really paying close attention to the Cruze in the past month or so... I've been seeing ads up the wazoo and the more I see, the more I love the little thing. The Verano may just win me over when I see it in person. I'm a Buick man at heart and like my little creature comforts. I would absolutely love a LaCrosse, can't afford one. Would love a Regal, but until I drive one I'm starting to have this impression that the suspension is firmer than I'd like (the car I drive now has turned me off to firm suspensions... no, not the Century).

[ocnblu]

Verano is a nicer Milan Premier/lower end MKZ with more performance potential a la 2.0T. Manual transmission availability sweetens the pot immensely. It really has no direct peers in the market. I think they've pulled off something special with this one.

[hyperv6]

As originally released, the Silver Arrow I wore big blackwalls, knock-off wires and the Riviera eggcrate grille.

-- -- -- -- --

At some point it gained retro concentric-ribbed hubcaps, wide whites and the thermostatically-operated grille 'doors' (something yet again that was before it's time).

It was redone after '72, because I've seen the original-spec SA I photographed alongside the '72 SA III & Mitchell.

-- -- -- -- --

Color is fine, and Mitchell was not known for offbeat concept colors.

Bill did have a thing for some odd colors with some Cadillac Eldorado's that lead to the bright Red Bird, Blue Bird and Yellow Bird Firebirds. The yellow Eldo is here in Cleveland. There are photo's of Bill in a matching bright yellow suit. Not a good thing even for the early 70's.

But on the other hand he did accpet the TA after John Schinella painted it the John Player colors that Bill liked on his Norton.

I never understood the changes from the wire wheels on the concept. The later car was just the wrong direction with the WW tires.

Any ways back to today. Buick needs to make a new car no matter what it is called that will help lead there styling future into the next decade. Relaying on the past is good for only so long and then you need to move on. A very stylish coupe of some kind with styling that could be adapted to other cars in the line would go a long way to being it up in the public eye. The Lacrosse has done well to make people notice but it look too much like a Lexus to lead to future Buicks. I see it as only a short term fix. It got peoples attention and now it is time to give them a car everyone will like and would not be confused with some other brand.

Buick needs to break through the public preception of their name with their own original styling.

Edited January 18, 2011 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

>>"Relaying on the past is good for only so long and then you need to move on."<<

Shhh! Don't let BMW hear you! And mercedes JUST re-released 1982's grilles! Yer gonna roont it!

-- -- -- -- --

>>"The Lacrosse has done well to make people notice but it look too much like a Lexus to lead to future Buicks. I see it as only a short term fix. It got peoples attention and now it is time to give them a car everyone will like and would not be confused with some other brand. "<<

Buick HAS DONE THIS. YOU may see the Lacrosse as a "short term fix", but after a good 25 years, Buick HAS seized on an iconic, heritage-linked visual distinction that both says 'Buick' AND separates them from the rest of the slab-sided generics out there. Forcing some sort of contrived surface-ripple, that has said nothing to no one and is there just to be 'different', THEN trying to make that somehow say 'Buick' is just spinning wheels & wasting time Buick doesn't have.

The issues you seem to have ('Buick looks too much like lexus') is misrepresented; everything looks too much like everything else.

Stop looking for things you can link to the past in order to damn-with-faint-praise the present.

Take this from the 'junkyard perspective'; you used to be able to look out, visually, over a field of tightly spaced vehicles, and pull out the roofline of Corporate X. A GM roofline vs. a Ford roofline vs. a MoPar roofline vs. an AMC roofline. A component seldom thought of as 'signature', yet it was. A door laying on the ground- easily identifiable. You can't do that with current vehicles, for the vast majority of instances. No; brand ID is all tied up in headlights, tails & grilles, and little else... esp when considering how much of that 'little else' is copied brand-to-brand-to-brand.

[Drew Dowdell]

i was at the hyundai dealer today looking at the other vehicle i was lookin at and they had an Elantra Limited on the showfloor. Damn nice. the interior is as nice or nicer than the Cruze. I'm on record after driving both (including the Cruze multiple times) that basically the two cars are a wash. Each has strong points and advantages.

You simply have so much GM koolaid pumped into your system, and are so effing stubborn, you cannot for one moment digest the fact that the Elantra is going to kick some major ass in this segment, and when it comes right down to it, the Cruze is no better than the Elantra.

The Elantra is a bangup car and your lack of objectivity in the matter is really frightening. That, and the Cruze is not all of that and box of cotton candy.

The Verano is a Buick Cruze with 5k more tacked onto the price. Nice car, but its not going to make a huge dent in the market.

The Cruze isn't the slam dunk NVH monster you think either. It's quiet after it settles down and doesn't need to shift, but in town driving that little lawn mower engine under hood is quite the buzz bomb in stop and go the way most folks drive these days. The Elantra doesn't need to wind up as much.

The Elantra is a fetchin car. It actually reminds me of what a modern day Alero might look like. I bet an Olds logo on the front and an Alero badge on the back would be perfectly in character to the styling of the car.

If I've got GM koolaid, then you have Hyundai koolaid. But I also say the Jetta, Focus, and Civic interior are also better than the Elantra interior... does that mean I have Honda and VW Koolaid too?

The Hyundai "more goodness" is all fluff. It's in the details that you never think about where Hyundai falls down. The Cruze has some misses on interior ergonomics, but on the material quality side, the Cruze is much better than Elantra. Don't believe me? Ask BV or Z-06 also... they had seat time in both.

I drove the Cruze a bit further than an around the block test drive. We drove it from Pittsburgh to Detroit and back through some absolutely terrible road conditions. The engine is no buzz bomb. Again, I'm not the only one to say this. In NHV the Cruze is near or at the top of the class.

[Cory Wolfe]

Drew speakeths the truth.

[67impss]

Agreed Saw a Impala going down the road doing somthing stupid like not signaling a turn(pet peeve) thought it was a Passat or Fusion till I got to the critical last 6 car lengths. Used to be critical last 1/4 mile with older cars & younger eyes

Edited January 18, 2011 by 67impss

[regfootball]

yeah, again, you're wrong, the cruze's interior materials are good, but not on another level. you're really overstating it. they did a nice job with it, but its not head and shoulders above like you want to believe.

[Drew Dowdell]

yeah, again, you're wrong, the cruze's interior materials are good, but not on another level. you're really overstating it. they did a nice job with it, but its not head and shoulders above like you want to believe.

3 against 1.

I'm not saying the switchgear is bad. It's fine, and in the case of the HVAC an interesting AND functional design. It's the other stuff. It's the headliner right out of a Hyundai Excel, it's the John Deere tilt wheel lever, it's the sharp edges of plastic along the bottom of the center console where you can scratch yourself if you wore shorts, it's the sun visors that feel like the super cheap vinyl that would have been used in a '79 F-150, it's the plastic that surrounds the NAV that GM would be crucified for if they put it in a car, it's the plastic on the door panels that everyone complained about in the 2007 Aura.

but sure... the rear heated seat switches are nice to touch.

I have my issues with the Cruze as you'll see when I publish the review, but in terms of material quality, with one notable exception, the Cruze is the better car. Even in pre-production form, it's clear the Verano will even further exceed the Elantra.

Yeah, the Cruze is close to the top of it's class in material quality. The Hyundai is near the bottom. Civic, Mazda3, new Focus, new Jetta, old Jetta, Impreza, and Fiesta, are all ahead of it.

[regfootball]

no the old jetta is not at all better than the elantra.

the verano had better be better inside, it will cost 7 grand or more, more.

[Northstar]

I thought the Elantra's interior was pretty nice from when I sat in it, though we only looked at the $21k limited model. Not sure how the GLS or whatever stacks up however.

[pow]

My concern is that even if the Verano/Astra has a nice interior by C-segment standards, it's only average by D-segment standards, which the Verano is priced directly against. GM is going to have to convince buyers that a Buick badge equates to luxury... something I feel they'll have a hard time doing, since most consider it more a liability than an asset.

[regfootball]

all they need to do is match the regal in terms of interior. the regal is nice enough. those who have been in the Verano claim its pretty nice. its just how much extra sticker it deserves to ask because of it.

there hardly any tech or features in the car that aren't readily available elsewhere.....i.e. no distinguishing features.

But for awhile at least if you want any serious go juice under the hood of your GM compact, the Verano is where you will need to go.