Going for broke with the ATS

[dwightlooi]

Wasn't the 2.0T over 300 in the Cobalt if you bought the upgrade from Chevy? Apparently there was also a boost in fuel economy too.

~290 I think, but torque was over 300.

However, that is a tuner kit engine. General production power plants will have more conservative margins. In any case it does have more lag to peak power than the standard 260hp engine. To preserve the same knock margins, you generally lower compression as you specify a higher boost level. That is predorminantly what causes a reduction in fuel economy. Remember, 99% of cruising on the freeway is done in vacuum not boost.

[hyperv6]

~290 I think, but torque was over 300.

However, that is a tuner kit engine. General production power plants will have more conservative margins. In any case it does have more lag to peak power than the standard 260hp engine. To preserve the same knock margins, you generally lower compression as you specify a higher boost level. That is predorminantly what causes a reduction in fuel economy. Remember, 99% of cruising on the freeway is done in vacuum not boost.

Note the GMPD kit is 100 HP short of the engines stock potential and is under the 5 year 100,000 warranty. I think if GM felt safe for the factory warranty to remain in place they have keept it safe. I think you know how much space GM demands for that kind of warranty. As of yet I have not seen any of the engines fail due to the kit. I have seen a few clutches but I feel that may have been just due to driver abuse.

I would recomend anyone to spend a little time with the GMPD tuned LNF. It is more than just tossing numbers around and saying what it should or should not do. This is not the normal turbo we are all used too. One needs to really drive one to really understand what GM has done here. Di VVT, Electronics and modern turbo's are a whole different program. Even the 1.4 the reviews complain for the lack of the feel of the turbo kicking in. I would say that was not an accident. I am sure GM worked the system so it would be seemless. Few normal Cruze drivers could care less for the big pow of power.

I was never a fan of Turbo's till I drove this car. The lag and sudden hit of power usally was a turn off. The driveability of this car is amazing and even in the snow it is so very easy to manage.

The only issues with this kit is that the transmissions used limited the torque. Also it would be difficult to use on cars like the Cruze 1.4 where they are sold for economy The Premium used would be factor in this class. Now with a sports car or more ecpensive car like the ATS that factor is removed.

I own a Series III 3800 SC and the tuned LNF and have thousands of miles in both. If give the chance to only choose one to keep the LNF would be my choice.

[Z-06]

The way to beat the 3-series is not with horsepower, it is with steering and suspension. Any one can put 300 hp in a car, but no one has been able to beat BMW's ride and handling. IS350 for example.

No need to worry about that. Cadillac answered that question long time ago. Reviewers are finding the CTS handling better than similar BMWs.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM did it with the GTO too.

[Z-06]

And with G8. The FE3 suspension is one of the best to come from GM. With ATS, we may see it being revised and improved.

[balthazar]

>>"Horsepower... steering & suspension... ride & handling..... THE NUMBER OF SPEAKERS is how to beat BMW..."<< :wacko:

Edited December 15, 2010 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"Horsepower... steering & suspension... ride & handling..... THE NUMBER OF SPEAKERS 45 way massaging seats and cashmere headliner is how to beat BMW..."<< :wacko:

[dwightlooi]

Actually, I don't think you need to beat the 3-series in every measure to beat the 3-series. You just need to make the car a more compelling buy. For instance, it is not important to have a turbo six just because the 3-series has a turbo six. It is more important that in styling, in perceived refinement, in overall handling and interior quality you appeal to the buyer more than the 3-series. In this regard, going with a 4 cylinder - 8 cylinder lineup may not be a bad one. The mainstream car offers a 4-cylinder turbo with V6 class performance and refinement. The V8 CTS-V is priced to run against a 335i (~$45K), beating it (and the E90 M3 for that matter) in both cylinder count and in performance. The amount of cost you save from not having a twin-turbo six can do wonders for the interior and the standard amenities.

Even 270hp in the 2.0T I4 and 420hp in the Pushrod V8 -- which is on the low end of what's possible -- will be just fine.

Edited December 15, 2010 by dwightlooi

[hyperv6]

It really does not matter how they do it and with what engine. The ATS needs to be best in class all the way around.

GM has tried the almost as good but at a better price and not gain much. Now they have just as good as near the same price and still have not broken through.

This time they need to be the same price and just flat make a better car.

It is not just the engine, suspension or the interior each alone that will win this fight it is the complete package. The highest G and fastest 1/4 mile does not win this class. A car with the complete package of great performance with a top quality and wll designed interiror in a attractive styled body will win this. The car with the biggest numbers does not always win. Sometimes less and balanced is more.

The bottom line Cadillac needs this car to be a no excuse car. No more almost as good no longer applies. The present CTS has come close but they need to do better. When this car is compared to BMW and Benz it needs to top them.

The ATS will be the foundation that Cadillac will be built upon. All other Cadillacs are to come will be judged on the ATS since it is the car more will come in contact with. If GM can't get the cheaper one right why would you go back and spend more money for a higher priced Cadillac?

BMW was saved from the brink by cars like the 2002 and built its future on the 3 series.

Edited December 15, 2010 by hyperv6

[dwightlooi]

BTW, if case I sounded like 8-speed trannies are never going to happen. Let me say that the following is going to be going on a car near you.

The only question is when. It won't be 2011 or 2012, but it'll happen.

[balthazar]

BMW was actually 'saved from the brink' by the Isetta.

[hyperv6]

BMW was actually 'saved from the brink' by the Isetta.

The Isseta keep them on life support through the post war years in the 50's.

They still nearly went under in the early 60's. It was not till the early 60's lower priced sports sedans did they really start to recover in Europe and get discovered by many Americans.

It was in the 70's when the 3 series finally won the hearts and money of the look at me American crowd. They then built on that to sell Americans larger more powerful expensive model.

[balthazar]

Well, isetta was produced under BMW thru '62, so the profit there did carry into the '60s. Good thing; because the other cars dripped red ink out the tailpipes.

But the early 3-series/ 2002 cars CERTAINLY were not "look at me" cars- back then, BMW were often bought for tossing around/ sporting drivers cars.

Not like today.

IMO, the 3-series cars weren't ever anything in the way of visual attention grabbers until they got Banglized.

[Robert Hall]

The Isseta keep them on life support through the post war years in the 50's.

They still nearly went under in the early 60's. It was not till the early 60's lower priced sports sedans did they really start to recover in Europe and get discovered by many Americans.

There was another strange rear engined/RWD car that was sold in Europe before the 1600/2002 and larger RWD models..don't know if that one was sold in the US or not.

[hyperv6]

There was another strange rear engined/RWD car that was sold in Europe before the 1600/2002 and larger RWD models..don't know if that one was sold in the US or not.

I think one was the 700. BMW had other cars but they were few in Europe and really just not around much in the US market. Post war Germany was hard on all their cars. VW was the one that really was prepared with a cheap reliable car. It was lucky the British help get them back on their feet in the post war years.

[hyperv6]

Well, isetta was produced under BMW thru '62, so the profit there did carry into the '60s. Good thing; because the other cars dripped red ink out the tailpipes.

But the early 3-series/ 2002 cars CERTAINLY were not "look at me" cars- back then, BMW were often bought for tossing around/ sporting drivers cars.

Not like today.

IMO, the 3-series cars weren't ever anything in the way of visual attention grabbers until they got Banglized.

For BMW it was either buy the cheap design of the Isetta or make pots and pans like so many other Germany companies did to survive. Times were tough in Germany in the 50's My father lived there then and told me how hard some of the people had it back then.

Even the mighty Benz tried to make inroads to the US market had to have help from Studibaker.

The 2002 was the car that Americans grew to know. Most were the Eurocentric people who wanted a smaller but sporty car. That car planted the name in the main stream here. Then in 1975 the 3 is the one that grew the brand.

For the most BMW in the late 70's was a car that was for the people who could not afford a Benz but still wanted a sporty upscale car. The slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine" worked as it sold performance and mid level luxury image.

BMW already had a performance following but the Gold chain look at me Disco era people are the ones who put them into the main stream. Once BMW put people behind the wheel that wanted to be seen in a BMW they were on a solid road to main stream acceptance.

Lutz changed their image in the 70's from the odd Euro car like Volvo and Saab. Once they gained their image the people who grew up in the 70's had a different out look on the BMW line and wen to them in great numbers in the 80's. Most were not what you call auto or performance enthusiast.

Either way this is how BMW built from the bottom line up. This is why I see the ATS as the most important car Cadillac has to make. This is the one more people will come in contact with. Then they can build on this one.