Black Tuesday

[ellives]

I can't disagree either. It's *all* about the details.

You're right to a certain degree however it *is* about how many they sell to an extent. Their business is all about overhead. This means they MUST sell volume otherwise their overhead costs will eat them alive. This is what's happening now.

She actually knew quite a bit about cars, more than I expected her to. Though whether it was through her experience or not, I couldnt disagree with her.

I've can pick out some areas on my moms 04 malibu where GM could have paid alot more attention to the details.

In the end, it all comes down to who can make the best product, with the least amount of cost. Right now, GM can make cars that are not as good as the competion, but still cost more to build, that is the problem. Not how many they sell.

[balthazar]

croc: >>"Is delayering "doing nothing" in your book? So far the GMT900s are exceeding expectations. Is that not proof that something is different?..."<<

You are misdirecting again. I did not address product and neither does Buickman's plan. Product is not the issue being addressed. Focus.

The O.C.: >>"Balthazar, In the past, I've presented on here (numerous times) a COMPREHENSIVE review of Buickman's "20 Points for a Return to Greatness" and would be more than willing to share those comments of mine again, should you wish to see them."<<

I'VE.......... SEEN........ YOUR........ REVIEW....., thanks. Read thru each & every counterpoint. And there were very good counterpoints but there were also some shaky, unfounded ones. The aim seemed to be 'devalue each & every step' at little cost (just my interpretation).

However, there were a number of steps that had great merit. THEY NEED TO BE IMPLEMENTED, not brushed aside.

>>"I have no problem with someone that has ideas, however, Dollinger presents his 20 Points as a way to "save GM." In THAT context, it appears as a child's-like view on the overall General Motors struggle for survival."<<

'Context'?? that's exactly the "huckster spin" I was talking about! Who gives a rat's ass; this is once again personal politics getting in the way of specific ideas. "Save GM" is a baseball cap, not a recovery plan.

I wish things were better and we (GM fans) had the luxury of picking & choosing & waiting for image to change. We don't. Bring on the improved image, the improved product, the improved everything. No one is advocating NOT to. But IN THE MEANTIME let GM also address minor practices at the dealership level, esp if the net result is positive. So modify some of the points, toss out a few, but goddamnit; put what works TO WORK NOW.

Thanks, O.C., for the civil tone; sorry if mine comes off as less so. I've said my peace for now, esp since the majority here is convinced there's not a shread of value in the Plan.

balthazar out.

Edited April 2, 2006 by balthazar

[Guest Josh]

I stopped reading at page six of the personal attacks of a "child left behind" and he should be banned. Because he stimulates discussion he should be banned?

Agree with him or not, do any of you have any ideas on how to save GM that are worthwhile?

[Flybrian]

Because he stimulates discussion he should be banned?

Josh, you of all people know exactly why that was brought up long, long ago.

[Guest Josh]

Josh, you of all people know exactly why that was brought up long, long ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps at at time when I did not want to offend anybody. Now that I've taken a seat on the outside and have looked in I can see things differently.

I've yet to see one attack he's made on people, yet others consistantly drag his name through mud. It's not just about him, it's the fact that people can't say what they want here about how to fix the company without being chastised?

[Flybrian]

Perhaps at at time when I did not want to offend anybody. Now that I've taken a seat on the outside and have looked in I can see things differently.

I've yet to see one attack he's made on people, yet others consistantly drag his name through mud. It's not just about him, it's the fact that people can't say what they want here about how to fix the company without being chastised?

I won't speak more on this particular subject because its not germaine to the discussion, but you know there are two aspects - the content of his ideas and the content of his character. The latter on multiple occasions didn't help out the former one bit.

[Guest Josh]

the content of his ideas and the content of his character. The latter on multiple occasions didn't help out the former one bit.

The same is often said/thought of me. Yet, I'm still here.

Interesting.

However, you have said it and it's true, we won't take this off topic.

[Croc]

croc: >>"Is delayering "doing nothing" in your book? So far the GMT900s are exceeding expectations. Is that not proof that something is different?..."<<

You are misdirecting again. I did not address product and neither does Buickman's plan. Product is not the issue being addressed. Focus.

Do not condescend to me again. Is that clear?

Of course it isn't addressed by Buickman's plan! That was the entire point of that portion of my post! Because the Plan doesn't address the root problem of woefully inadequate product throughout almost the entire GM lineup, it is deeply flawed. GM needs to focus its efforts and resources on making good product, NOT more marketing smoke and mirrors! An over-reliance on marketing smoke and mirrors for the past 30 years is what has caused GM to be in this mess to begin with. You can call for better marketing all you want, but the fact remains that once the consumer goes to the GM dealership and sees the product firsthand, notices the inferiority of the product in comparison to the competition in person and, if the consumer is significantly more open-minded than average, takes it for a test drive, the consumer will know through first-hand experience that it is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors marketing.

Now, find me a plan that actually addresses the underlying issues that plague GM and address the issue of product and then I will discuss its merits with you and maybe even endorse it. This Return to Greatness doesn't even come close.

[evok]

[

However, there were a number of steps that had great merit. THEY NEED TO BE IMPLEMENTED, not brushed aside.

Please identify your top 3.

[balthazar]

>>"Do not condescend to me again. Is that clear?"<<

After you.

>>"Please identify your top 3."<<

I thought this topic was moot....

Edited April 2, 2006 by balthazar

[ellives]

[whine]

Do not condescend to me again.  Is that clear?

[/whine]

Of course it isn't addressed by Buickman's plan!  That was the entire point of that portion of my post!  Because the Plan doesn't address the root problem of woefully inadequate product throughout almost the entire GM lineup, it is deeply flawed.  GM needs to focus its efforts and resources on making good product, NOT more marketing smoke and mirrors!  An over-reliance on marketing smoke and mirrors for the past 30 years is what has caused GM to be in this mess to begin with.  You can call for better marketing all you want, but the fact remains that once the consumer goes to the GM dealership and sees the product firsthand, notices the inferiority of the product in comparison to the competition in person and, if the consumer is significantly more open-minded than average, takes it for a test drive, the consumer will know through first-hand experience that it is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors marketing.

Are you serious? "the consumer will know through first hand experince..." You're kidding I hope. I'd venture to guess 80% of buyers wouldn't know the difference in any product they see in the marketplace. Most are lemmings that do what their friends do. This is why marketing is so important. It gets the message out so people AREN'T just depending on what their friend, mother, brother, babysitter or whomever tells them what they'd do.

GM also needs to make better product and I don't really believe anyone thinks they can't make a great product. The trick is to make great stuff that looks good, stays together and can be sold for the right price and to be able to tell everybody that you can do all these things - then the sales will come. Arguing about which is more important, better product or better marketing is a fool's argument. They need both and all of it to succeed.

Now, find me a plan that actually addresses the underlying issues that plague GM and address the issue of product and then I will discuss its merits with you and maybe even endorse it.  This Return to Greatness doesn't even come close.

[Guest Josh]

I'll tell you this. Had the HHR been to sport trucks what the Solstice is to roadsters it would stil be in production and in high demand even 4 or 5 years in.

The old GM did not factor the "gotta have" factor in to anything when they decided on production. It was all sheets. The SSR was a bonafied hit and was THE vehicle to own after it's debut at the auto show. When it hit, the "counters" did their best to ruin it and did.

Thank Lutz (aka God in this case!) the counters did not have their way on that program. Well, they kinda did. Saturn had to have one.

[Croc]

Saturn had to have one.

And has a better interior than the Pontiac. Bean counters would've badge-jobbed it. That didn't happen.

[evok]

>>"Do not condescend to me again. Is that clear?"<<

After you.

>>"Please identify your top 3."<<

I thought this topic was moot....

Please answer the question and expand on your earlier statements. I am only asking for your top three. As for me, I am already on the record for all twenty.

[Cory Wolfe]

Agree with him or not, do any of you have any ideas on how to save GM that are worthwhile?

Sorry... Like his were?

I stopped reading at page six of the personal attacks of a "child left behind" and he should be banned. Because he stimulates discussion he should be banned?

Perhaps at at time when I did not want to offend anybody. Now that I've taken a seat on the outside and have looked in I can see things differently.

I've yet to see one attack he's made on people, yet others consistantly drag his name through mud. It's not just about him, it's the fact that people can't say what they want here about how to fix the company without being chastised?

Josh, I respect and all, but I recall someone that was banned... long, long ago... yet did nothing deserving of that. Perhaps it was a personal beef with him, no? I hate to bring this up, but damn... It seems the tables are suddenly turned. Coincidence, maybe?

Anyways, Buickman is pollution to C&G. He needs banned. He's an egotistical idiot and ridiculous agenda againt Wagoner who thinks simple advertising and dealer level changes are going to save GM for once all, even ignoring the real problems. I'm sorry... Personal attacks, whatever... He deserves them for all I care and until this disgrace is gone, I won't stop. He is undeserving of any respect what-so-ever. I mean... he knows how to sell Buicks in "Buick town". Wow... such an accomplishment. Is he banned yet, Josh? Let me know when he is.

Oh... I'm supposed to be on topic... um... It's good to see the General making some cuts.

[evok]

Sorry... Like his were?

Josh, I respect and all, but I recall someone that was banned... long, long ago... yet did nothing deserving of that. Perhaps it was a personal beef with him, no? I hate to bring this up, but damn... It seems the tables are suddenly turned. Coincidence, maybe?

Anyways, Buickman is pollution to C&G. He needs banned. He's an egotistical idiot and ridiculous agenda againt Wagoner who thinks simple advertising and dealer level changes are going to save GM for once all, even ignoring the real problems. I'm sorry... Personal attacks, whatever... He deserves them for all I care and until this disgrace is gone, I won't stop. He is undeserving of any respect what-so-ever. I mean... he knows how to sell Buicks in "Buick town". Wow... such an accomplishment. Is he banned yet, Josh? Let me know when he is.

Oh... I'm supposed to be on topic... um... It's good to see the General making some cuts.

kudos

[Croc]

Sorry... Like his were?

Josh, I respect and all, but I recall someone that was banned... long, long ago... yet did nothing deserving of that. Perhaps it was a personal beef with him, no? I hate to bring this up, but damn... It seems the tables are suddenly turned. Coincidence, maybe?

Anyways, Buickman is pollution to C&G. He needs banned. He's an egotistical idiot and ridiculous agenda againt Wagoner who thinks simple advertising and dealer level changes are going to save GM for once all, even ignoring the real problems. I'm sorry... Personal attacks, whatever... He deserves them for all I care and until this disgrace is gone, I won't stop. He is undeserving of any respect what-so-ever. I mean... he knows how to sell Buicks in "Buick town". Wow... such an accomplishment. Is he banned yet, Josh? Let me know when he is.

Oh... I'm supposed to be on topic... um... It's good to see the General making some cuts.

[caddyfan2004]

...my Mom worked for Buick for 16 years and retired from GM.  (They have retired in Tampa, FL.)  My parents (who drive a 2000 Regal GS, 1999 Corvette coupe, and a 2004 BMW 330Ci convertible) said they were looking to trade in the Regal for a midsize SUV.  I was so excited about the new Enclave, that I told my Mom to wait until later this year to look at the new Buick because I think it's SO hot and a great new product from GM.  My Mom's response?  "I don't want another 'Buick'....I've worked hard in my life and I'm ready for a 'luxury' car."  They are looking at Lexus RX330s.

Is your Mom drawing a GM pension and health care benefits? Just wondering if someone in that position considers that when purchasing a non-GM product.

[caddyfan2004]

Get rid of traditional dealers, sell cars over the internet, have GM stores with no traditional salespeople, just people who let you look over the car, hand over the keys for a test drive and do paperwork for people unable or unwilling to buy online.  Set pricing low, like where they are after all incentives so haggling isn't an issue.  That would get rid of all of the worthless douchebags, the scum of the earth, the most unloved and unwanted people alive, car salesmen.

You do realize that GM doesn't own the dealerships and has contractual obligations with these people, as well as a myriad of state laws that prevent anything like this from ever happening....

[caddyfan2004]

Excellent synopsis there, wildmanjoe. I agree that we should move on from the name-calling and try harder to address the real issues here.

You've got the right idea here, but the trouble is, image isn't easy to change. It isn't something that can change overnight; it takes years to build a reputation (or lose it). Right now, GM simply does not have the time or the money to invest in changing their image through marketing (i.e: polishing turds). That money could be better spent (IMO) by building products that the customers will want, which, in turn, will slowly begin to build up brand equity and change image. Unfortunately, it's looking like GM might not have the time or money to do this right now, either.

For the record, while I agree that some change at the top needs to take place at GM, but, frankly, I don't see what removing Rick Wagoner would really accomplish... especially if the person taking his place was another equally inneffective individual brought up in the GM culture. I look forward to any future suggestions from anyone on who would be a successful candidate for the position of GM CEO.

Is the Impala a turd?

[Croc]

Is the Impala a turd?

The current one? Well, let's just say I wouldn't be caught dead in one...

[caddyfan2004]

The current one?  Well, let's just say I wouldn't be caught dead in one...

Well, it's a Consumer Reports Recommended Buy, so it's hardly a "turd".

[Satty]

You do realize that GM doesn't own the dealerships and has contractual obligations with these people, as well as a myriad of state laws that prevent anything like this from ever happening....

I just wanted to rant on car salesman, and to get something into this thread which has regressed from a discussion on GM cutting employees into a retarded argument about "The Plan" which, as far as I can tell, has three backers, non of whom have any say in or true knowledge of what goes on inside GM, and two of them BM and BM-II(Josh) are pure ego maniacs so hell bent on pushing this agenda that they dont think about realistic short and longterm consequenses. If "The Plan" is implimented and marketing and dealer level changes are made and Wagner is canned, in six months is market share doesn't increase is there going to be a lobby to get another new CEO or would we just hear the same "dont worry, its coming" crap we've heard from GM for years?

[The O.C.]

Is your Mom drawing a GM pension and health care benefits?  Just wondering if someone in that position considers that when purchasing a non-GM product.

Yes, she is. And no, it doesn't factor in.

I'm also vested.....I'll receive (maybe? ha!) a tiny GM pension when I get older too, but I can't allow that to dictate my vehicle purchases unfortunately......

[The O.C.]

Is the Impala a turd?

He may be referring to the fact that the new Impala is really just a new body on an old platform. The W-body architecture dates way back to 1988 with the intro of the new Regal/Cutlass/GP W-body coupes. It's almost 20-years old.

[Croc]

The cars debuted in 1988. Originally the platform was to debut in 1986 with the same cars; it just got pushed back though I believe the platform engineering was finished by 86...so 20 years old.

[91z4me]

I will suggest that this thread be closed because there is no discussion of the 'Black Tuesday' events any longer. The discussion is about BM's plan. Perhaps we should start a thread on that instead of continuing here?

In the meantime I would like to point out that BM's plans are misdirected at GM corprate. They should be directed at regional Dealer bodies as most of the steps are dealer specific and cannot be enacted or enforced by GM due to franchise laws.

Also for the selling cars over the internet. It will never happen because of the stranglehold that dealership franchise contracts have over the ability of GM to actually market its cars in an effective manner. Personal example from me: I live in Louisville, KY at the current time where most GM ads are national ones unless someone is talking about their sale to end all sales. This selling strategy only leads to the lowered perception and devaluation of the product. I am moving to St. Louis, MO and had the chance to see the way that region's dealers market their product and it was totally different. Dealer bodies paid for ads instead of individual dealerships that told people to visit their local regional dealer. The ads featured products and spoke of features instead of deals. The product not only appeared more attractive but didn't appear discounted to generate sales. BM is that something along the lines of how your marketing is directed?

[Guest buickman]

It is my belief that GM itself should immediately suspend all advertising that promotes price, payment , or rebate. Let the dealers decide how to promote locally. No more Red Tag, March Madness, etc...

I agree that ads which discuss features, benefits, and lifestyles are much more effective for the manufacturer and work to build image and aspiration.

As to selling on the net, witness GM's increasing reliance on Edmunds.com and how Dell is moving to purchase Asbury Motors. It's a trend encouraged and desired by GM management and will prove destructive. The independant franchisee who is responsible for the particular location's profitability is the best scenario and has worked terrifically for decades. Even the most successful mega dealers survive and prosper by having a vested interest by the local owner/partner/operator.

Buickman

[fbodfather]

I've yet to see one attack he's made on people, yet others consistantly drag his name through mud. It's not just about him, it's the fact that people can't say what they want here about how to fix the company without being chastised?

oh man............

*shaking head*

Josh........are you KIDDING ME?

You've not seen one attack he's made on people?

What do you call his daily rants on the people of General Motors?

This thread is so far off base, it's ridiculous.

While I'm here, let me set a few things straight........ (and this is personal...it has nothing to do with the company I work for.....)

Wagoner did not hire Zarella -- he was brought in at the urging of the Board of Directors......the former Proctor & Gamble CEO who served on the GM board -- whose name escapes me -- brought Zarella in.

The Number One GM salesperson in History would be Joe Girard.......sorry Buickman, but you're not even close. Not sure what your sales numbers are, but methinks there are many old-line Chevrolet salespeople that outsell you as well.

Josh -- GM did not sit around and do nothing for 20 years. To say such a thing is simply ludicrous. (note the spelling)

It would be highly unlikely for GM/Ford/DCX to gain meaningful market share (meaning above 30% ....when you consider the american consumer has over 280 nameplates to choose from......and that will grow to well over 300 by the end of the decade. The 'pie' (meaning the american market) is relatively stable at 16 to 17 million units a year. Every time another manufacturer comes into the market, someone's piece of the pie is gonna shrink. Do I like that fact? No. Will I die trying to change that for GM? You betcha!

Wagoner is not a crook and I think it's slanderous to say such a thing.

I find it offensive that someone puts his name in the same paragraph -- or the same footing (at least it sure appeared that way to me) with names like Durant/Nash/W.P. Chrysler/Mott/Curtice........ This reminds me of Dan Quayle making a similar claim and Lloyd Bentsen saying "I knew Jack Kennedy -- you are no Jack Kennedy!"

The bottom line: If you attack people, get used to them attacking back.

[Guest buickman]

Smale was chairman, Wagoner ran North American operations which made him responsible for Zarrella.

Joe Girard was/is a great salesman. I've met him, read his book, learned from him, and outsold him.

I do not attack people at GM daily. I called for "Red Ink Rick" to resign before it was fashionable. The man is a disaster and his record is living proof.

Wagoner has misled the small investors. His regime is repleat with corruption (see SEC investigations and acounting irregularities). He shouldn't only be fired, he should be indicted. The Fiat deal alone should have landed him in prison.

Buickman

Edited April 11, 2006 by buickman

[97regalGS]

fbod. thanks for the rational comments.

unfortunately, the only way to get rid of BM is to ignore him.

as for miniBM, I think it's to late for him. he's had so much BM kool-aid, he'll never regain his sanity.

Edited April 11, 2006 by 97regalGS

[razoredge]

I think "croc" would make a great car salesman

"evok" a great assembly line worker

Then put "blackviper" in charge of personal

tic

toc

[PontiacTechNJ]

oh man............

*shaking head*

Josh........are you KIDDING ME?

You've not seen one attack he's made on people? 

What do you call his daily rants on the people of General Motors?

This thread is so far off base, it's ridiculous.

While I'm here, let me set a few things straight........  (and this is personal...it has nothing to do with the company I work for.....)

Wagoner did not hire Zarella -- he was brought in at the urging of the Board of Directors......the former Proctor & Gamble CEO who served on the GM board -- whose name escapes me -- brought Zarella in.

The Number One GM salesperson in History would be Joe Girard.......sorry Buickman, but you're not even close.  Not sure what your sales numbers are, but methinks there are many old-line Chevrolet salespeople that outsell you as well.

Josh -- GM did not sit around and do nothing for 20 years.  To say such a thing is simply ludicrous.  (note the spelling) 

It would be highly unlikely for GM/Ford/DCX to gain meaningful market share (meaning above 30% ....when you consider the american consumer has over 280 nameplates to choose from......and that will grow to well over 300 by the end of the decade.  The 'pie' (meaning the american market) is relatively stable at 16 to 17 million units a year.  Every time another manufacturer comes into the market, someone's piece of the pie is gonna shrink.  Do I like that fact? No.  Will I die trying to change that for GM?  You betcha!

Wagoner is not a crook and I think it's slanderous to say such a thing.

I find it offensive that someone puts his name in the same paragraph -- or the same footing (at least it sure appeared that way to me)  with names like Durant/Nash/W.P. Chrysler/Mott/Curtice........  This reminds me of Dan Quayle making a similar claim and Lloyd Bentsen saying "I knew Jack Kennedy -- you are no Jack Kennedy!"

The bottom line:  If you attack people, get used to them attacking back.

LLoyd Bentsen , another hack turd , name brought up in discussion of hack turds , how fitting

[Croc]

I think "croc" would make a great car salesman

"evok" a great assembly line worker

Then put "blackviper" in charge of personal

tic

toc

I think you'd make a great third grade student.

[razoredge]

I think you'd make a great third grade student.

Yep ! Been there done that................and you ?

[Croc]

Really? You don't have much to show for it...

What about me?

[razoredge]

What about me?

why you could be a car salesman

[Croc]

I probably could...but I have greater life aspirations than being a better Buickman.

[Flybrian]

I probably could...but I have greater life aspirations than being a better Buickman.

Hey, when better Buickmans are built...

[Guest buickman]

Wouldn't you really rather have a Buickman?

[Guest buickman]

He's b b b bad to the bone.

[Guest Josh]

oh man............

*shaking head*

Josh........are you KIDDING ME?

You've not seen one attack he's made on people? 

What do you call his daily rants on the people of General Motors?

This thread is so far off base, it's ridiculous.

While I'm here, let me set a few things straight........  (and this is personal...it has nothing to do with the company I work for.....)

Wagoner did not hire Zarella -- he was brought in at the urging of the Board of Directors......the former Proctor & Gamble CEO who served on the GM board -- whose name escapes me -- brought Zarella in.

The Number One GM salesperson in History would be Joe Girard.......sorry Buickman, but you're not even close.  Not sure what your sales numbers are, but methinks there are many old-line Chevrolet salespeople that outsell you as well.

Josh -- GM did not sit around and do nothing for 20 years.  To say such a thing is simply ludicrous.  (note the spelling) 

It would be highly unlikely for GM/Ford/DCX to gain meaningful market share (meaning above 30% ....when you consider the american consumer has over 280 nameplates to choose from......and that will grow to well over 300 by the end of the decade.  The 'pie' (meaning the american market) is relatively stable at 16 to 17 million units a year.  Every time another manufacturer comes into the market, someone's piece of the pie is gonna shrink.  Do I like that fact? No.  Will I die trying to change that for GM?  You betcha!

Wagoner is not a crook and I think it's slanderous to say such a thing.

I find it offensive that someone puts his name in the same paragraph -- or the same footing (at least it sure appeared that way to me)  with names like Durant/Nash/W.P. Chrysler/Mott/Curtice........  This reminds me of Dan Quayle making a similar claim and Lloyd Bentsen saying "I knew Jack Kennedy -- you are no Jack Kennedy!"

The bottom line:  If you attack people, get used to them attacking back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mr. Settlemire,

I'm going to be honest here and now. I've given up on much of GM since the Media Contacts have given up on sites like this. Ask Terry Rhadigan. Ask Len M.

General Motors is still running an "old school" form of business. From the average consumer and the average enthusiast nothing has changed except for Lutz talking to the mags & the editorials.

It's all about pleasing the "suits" around the business yet sites like this get more attention from enthusiasts, yet got ignored more and more. I understand that Wall Street needs to be pleased but.....when does the CEO of GM take the time out of his day to answer honest questions from dealership Chairman’s?

When are hard lined questions answered that Enthusiasts have?

I don't know or care if Dollinger is right or wrong, but the fact remains he's causing people to wonder how & why things are going today yet GM ignores conventional media.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well think about it from GM's perspective. Does GM have to worry about GM enthusiests, or does GM need to worry more about the general public? The general public would sooner read CR, or Motortrend, than go to a brand specific website. The GM enthusiests make up a small percentage of the market, not enough to sustain GM. GM needs to find ways to get the buyers that aren't brand loyal, and the buyers that are import loyal. While some here are not brand loyal, and some are import loyal, the majority here are not that way. It sucks, but I dont see that as being enough of a reason to give up on GM.

[Croc]

I don't know or care if Dollinger is right or wrong, but the fact remains he's causing people to wonder how & why things are going today yet GM ignores conventional media.

Speak for yourself, since you seem to be the only one buying his snake oil.

[Guest Josh]

Speak for yourself, since you seem to be the only one buying his snake oil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just give it up already Croc. You've already been demoded do you need to be demembered (as if you already aren't anyway)

[Croc]

It sucks, but I dont see that as being enough of a reason to give up on GM.

Of course it isn't. Some people just have no loyalty and when the &#036;h&#33; goes down, they like to bail.

Just give it up already Croc. You've already been demoded do you need to be demembered (as if you already aren't anyway)

Demodded? Nice fantasy life you live...more like quit after growing tired of you and your witch hunts. The other mods will back me up.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Croc

[Guest Josh]

You're the man Croc. You're the man. Now.......just disappear.

[Flybrian]

Guys, get a room. Preferrably in your PM boxes...or a La Quinta.

[Guest Josh]

Every time another manufacturer comes into the market, someone's piece of the pie is gonna shrink. Do I like that fact? No. Will I die trying to change that for GM? You betcha!

Let me say this as well.

I'm 100% with Scott. I live & I die by Detroit. Both is Autos & in Music. I get reamed for both, I smile & carry on with both.

I'll give that part a rest, for now.

[Cory Wolfe]

*hears thunder* Uh-oh...