Black Tuesday

[daves87rs]

What I know is that Wagoner is a crook who is going down. He is secure in the confines of the Board and institutional investors. However, misleading the small fish is a crime for which he must answer. No plan for bankruptcy? What the hell is the foolproof pension? Some surprises for "RedInk Rick". It would be better for him to resign than face the coming music.

Buickman

Really? You think they don't have a plan??

You could bet your ass they do....

[daves87rs]

it would be nice not to have to vist a dealership to get a car.  most folks can't stand going to one, anyways.  I'm all for purchasing factory direct.  All I want to do is test drive it.  I don't want to have some dude who sits and smokes outside in the lot ask me all sorts of useless questions and then harass me about what i should like and what i should not like.  I want to drive the car and talk to the man in charge of the money.  I want the best deal on the table right now, I've only got 15 minutes to discuss it.  I'm not going to 'bring the kids'.

Imagine a world where you simply go check out some keys to test drive a demo model with no hassle, and then order your car to the specs you want, and boom, its there a couple days later, delivered to your door.  No having to pad Denny Hecker's or the Luther's pockets.  that would be nice.  Think of all the prime real estate that could be redeveloped for real uses like housing and such, rather than big open wastelands of cars rotting on dealer lots.

That's the way its heading, my friend....granted GM doesn't go belly up first...

[daves87rs]

So I was off by a year.

I anticipated Delphi to happen much, much earlier but obviously it did not.

In this sense, I would have to agree with Josh w/ Delphi.

This company has been the wildcard all along...

Though I wouldn't have picked a timeframe-only because you honestly can't pinpoint anything GM is trying to do right now....

As tomorrow should be interesting....

[Cory Wolfe]

Personal attacks, smershional attacks... Why the hell do people still pay attention Buickman?!?!? He's a f**king retard with an overinflated ego. I can only shake my head in amazement while reading his posts. I'm sorry, but I can't take it anymore...

And what's this with Josh and Evok? Who's the one I'd listen to first? Hmm... Sorry Josh.

[daves87rs]

Personal attacks, smershional attacks... Why the hell do people still pay attention Buickman?!?!? He's a f**king retard with an overinflated ego. I can only shake my head in amazement while reading his posts. I'm sorry, but I can't take it anymore...

And what's this with Josh and Evok? Who's the one I'd listen to first? Hmm... Sorry Josh.

I'm not sure what's up with Evok and Josh-but they need to chill the hell out...

The problem is everyone gets so butthurt around here so fast...

I'd hate to see how people would take it from other boards..and there are some mean ones out there too...

[regfootball]

That's the way its heading, my friend....granted GM doesn't go belly up first...

maybe if they do go belly up, then that would fix the union and pension issues, then also maybe it would cancel out all those dealers out of it too. Let those owners go belly under too, I don't want some schmuck dealer owner making profit off me buying a car. I got no issues with a salesman getting some money for providing service, and the service dept too, but these kingpin owners need to go away. they are contributing nothing to my buying experience.

[daves87rs]

maybe if they do go belly up, then that would fix the union and pension issues, then also maybe it would cancel out all those dealers out of it too.  Let those owners go belly under too, I don't want some schmuck dealer owner making profit off me buying a car.  I got no issues with a salesman getting some money for providing service, and the service dept too, but these kingpin owners need to go away.  they are contributing nothing to my buying experience.

True...

Well, so much for those service industry jobs....

[Guest buickman]

This company is sick. I attempt to bring healing and receive heckling and cold shoulders. I preach common sense solutions and endure personal attacks and ridicule. I point out weaknesses and failings and face unsubstantiated accusations against my credibility and professionalism. No complaints, it's to be expected when one calls for the resignation of GM's CEO. Fortunately, I have thick skin and no fear of the likely reprisals.

Buickman

[Croc]

This company is sick. I attempt to bring healing and receive heckling and cold shoulders. I preach common sense solutions and endure personal attacks and ridicule. I point out weaknesses and failings and face unsubstantiated accusations against my credibility and professionalism. No complaints, it's to be expected when one calls for the resignation of GM's CEO. Fortunately, I have thick skin and no fear of the likely reprisals.

))<>((

Remember that child in elementary school who never shut up and whenever was told to shut up would reply "You're not the boss of me! You can't make me! I'll never shut up!"? You WERE that child, weren't you?

How does it feel to be a child left behind?

[Guest buickman]

From Jim Ziegler of Dealer Magazine:

"Now get this…this guy stands up at stockholder meetings and openly calls for Rick Wagoner’s resignation. Dollinger has authored a plan titled, “Return to Greatness,” which is a roadmap for General Motors to regain former glory. He’s getting a lot of media attention with TV interviews and newspaper articles covering his writings and his mission. I’m on his e-mail newsletter list and what he has to say, for the most part, makes a lot of sense.

Let me tell you, he has their attention at GM. He’s met with the topper-most of the topper-most of General Motors’ executives. He has them lying awake at night tossing and turning. I promise you he haunts their dreams. His sole mission in life is to get General Motors to adopt his “Return to Greatness” thesis. (It is detailed and complex, filling many pages. You can find Dollinger’s writings at http://www.GeneralWatch.com.)

Well, I gotta tell ya. I’ve spent hours looking over what Dollinger has written and, truthfully, I believe the majority (not all by any means) of what he says will work and will immediately restore a lot of GM’s lost market share. As a matter of fact—remember this guy has only targeted General Motors because that’s where he lives—his ideas would also work for Ford or any manufacturer whose executives would take a moment or two to remove their heads from the deep, warm, moist dark recess in which they’ve placed them.

You want to see something well thought-out by someone who has a clue? I am inviting every dealer, no matter what you sell, to check out Dollinger’s plan."

Who's left behind?

Buickman

Edited March 31, 2006 by buickman

[balthazar]

No one has yet answered: if a Plan could provide tangible, NET positive results, why would anyone refuse it????

An endorsement of an IDEA is not an endorsement of a PERSON. If the idea can provide results, F*** what you think of the individual that created it; take your personal beefs to the flagpole at 3PM; those of us that care want real results ASAP.

All I read in counter-point is 'It's not going to save General Motors' like ANYONE --bar none- has a single plan to save an entire corporation. The idea is to IMPROVE the State of the Union, not return the Union to 58% marketshare. IMPROVE BUSINESS. Here, the overwhelming response is 'we don't want that'.

Where is the alternate plan?? Not breezy generalities, but tested, executable specifics that can be implemented immediately?

Thorough business analysis (not knee-jerk emotional opinion) should clearly show the likelyhood of success of BM's steps. There's always endless hand-wringing and teeth-knashing to fall back on as Plan B if Plan A doesn't work.

"You're bleeding. Here is some medicine that has worked well for me before."

"No; I don't like you or a person you dealt with before. I refuse the medicine and prefer to bleed to death."

[Cory Wolfe]

Buickman is a disease. The cure? Banning... for once and for all.

[Matt276]

I agree that Rick should be replaced. A change at the head is needed right now.

[turbo200]

it would be nice not to have to vist a dealership to get a car.  most folks can't stand going to one, anyways.  I'm all for purchasing factory direct.  All I want to do is test drive it.  I don't want to have some dude who sits and smokes outside in the lot ask me all sorts of useless questions and then harass me about what i should like and what i should not like.  I want to drive the car and talk to the man in charge of the money.  I want the best deal on the table right now, I've only got 15 minutes to discuss it.  I'm not going to 'bring the kids'.

Imagine a world where you simply go check out some keys to test drive a demo model with no hassle, and then order your car to the specs you want, and boom, its there a couple days later, delivered to your door.  No having to pad Denny Hecker's or the Luther's pockets.  that would be nice.  Think of all the prime real estate that could be redeveloped for real uses like housing and such, rather than big open wastelands of cars rotting on dealer lots.

This is hopefully the most generalized, blanketed statement i may ever make, dealer salesmen are idiots. Just plain idiots. Not only do they have a complete lack of product knowledge [everyone i've encountered which is certainly not every salesmen out there], they are so schooled in some backwards sales practice world they cannot escape the snake-like demeanor. I can only imagine what Dollinger is like. it literally makes me want to shudder thinking about dealing with him. I want someone who gives no nonsense, and you know I have met some like that, the only ones I've ever met like that are not at GM dealerships, except maybe Saab.

Okay, so it's hit or miss, but GM dealers really hire men with old-school think. Perhaps it's the years of faltering sales and bottom lines that leads them to hire people who zone in and attack no matter what.

People want someone friendly, who is knowledgeable, seems trustworthy, is available but not pushy, and definitely not just trying to get to the bottom line questions. Salesmen waste thier time with me when they are just asking me "how much money you've got to spend". It's not about that asswipe, it's about what car I want.

End rant. Car dealerships have thier place in the world of GM. I would like it if Dollinger spent his time and efforts on improving the sales experience nationwide instead of fielding useless rhetoric here.

[turbo200]

No one has yet answered: if a Plan could provide tangible, NET positive results, why would anyone refuse it????

An endorsement of an IDEA is not an endorsement of a PERSON. If the idea can provide results, F*** what you think of the individual that created it; take your personal beefs to the flagpole at 3PM; those of us that care want real results ASAP.

All I read in counter-point is 'It's not going to save General Motors' like ANYONE --bar none- has a single plan to save an entire corporation. The idea is to IMPROVE the State of the Union, not return the Union to 58% marketshare. IMPROVE BUSINESS. Here, the overwhelming response is 'we don't want that'.

Where is the alternate plan?? Not breezy generalities, but tested, executable specifics that can be implemented immediately?

Thorough business analysis (not knee-jerk emotional opinion) should clearly show the likelyhood of success of BM's steps. There's always endless hand-wringing and teeth-knashing to fall back on as Plan B if Plan A doesn't work.

"You're bleeding. Here is some medicine that has worked well for me before."

"No; I don't like you or a person you dealt with before. I refuse the medicine and prefer to bleed to death."

I have read the Plan and it does not address the core issues of what faces GM. Buickman uses empty phrases like "improved sales" and "number one salesman". Buickman sells Buicks in Flint. I never see Buicks in Los Angeles. Never. I see about 40 BMW 3-series' every time I drive within a 4 mile radius. Address this problem and you save GM.

I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses sales in the coasts, where GM's share is piddling and really reflective of the public's opinion. I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses out of date product, overcapacity issues, incredible medical and overhead costs, union dealings, quality quality quality, investment, or even his forte, sales environments, of which GM still lags behind the competition [ever been in a Cadillac showroom and then an MB or Lexus showroom, ya world of difference].

[turbo200]

From Jim Ziegler of Dealer Magazine:

"Now get this…this guy stands up at stockholder meetings and openly calls for Rick Wagoner’s resignation. Dollinger has authored a plan titled, “Return to Greatness,” which is a roadmap for General Motors to regain former glory. He’s getting a lot of media attention with TV interviews and newspaper articles covering his writings and his mission. I’m on his e-mail newsletter list and what he has to say, for the most part, makes a lot of sense.

Let me tell you, he has their attention at GM. He’s met with the topper-most of the topper-most of General Motors’ executives. He has them lying awake at night tossing and turning. I promise you he haunts their dreams. His sole mission in life is to get General Motors to adopt his “Return to Greatness” thesis. (It is detailed and complex, filling many pages. You can find Dollinger’s writings at http://www.GeneralWatch.com.)

Well, I gotta tell ya. I’ve spent hours looking over what Dollinger has written and, truthfully, I believe the majority (not all by any means) of what he says will work and will immediately restore a lot of GM’s lost market share. As a matter of fact—remember this guy has only targeted General Motors because that’s where he lives—his ideas would also work for Ford or any manufacturer whose executives would take a moment or two to remove their heads from the deep, warm, moist dark recess in which they’ve placed them.

You want to see something well thought-out by someone who has a clue? I am inviting every dealer, no matter what you sell, to check out Dollinger’s plan."

Who's left behind?

Buickman

this guy has no clue what he's talking about. you should stop trying for the millionth time to get this website on your bandwagon, it didn't happen before and it won't happen ever. just thinking of your sales practices makes me shudder, literally shudder. your prod prod prod until they buy it sales practice is unbelievable and appalling, really. Your passion and fervency is strong, but pay attention and address the real issues.

DEALER magazine

you have to be kidding.

Edited March 31, 2006 by turbo200

[91z4me]

If someone wants to see the plan get ripped apart systematically just do a search on cz28.com and read what Guy McCoy and others said about it. Basically you will understand that the plan has TRUE Core faults.

I think everyone can agree with the following: The way to save GM is through new best in class products and reduced overhead. Both of which are being addressed now!

[Petra]

How about more sales with less expense. It's called effective marketing utilizing proven techniques rather than proven ineffective Red Tag Sales.

Without improved product, selling more cars will end in futility. GM has been trying to polish turds and pawn them off to customers for thirty years now. It worked for a little while, until people caught on that the s**t still stank and ran away. And they've been running away ever since.

Build the product, and the customers will come. Look at examples such as the Chrysler 300, the HUMMER H2, the Mustang... pretty much the entire Cadillac lineup! Even the Toyota Camry is an example of building what the customer wants (a high-quality, innoffensive midsize sedan) and having the customers flock to it. Why GM didn't realize this 10 or 20 years ago is beyond me (and this is not a recent problem, so don't try and pin it on Wagoner), and it seems that with each passing day, it may be too late for GM to build anything at all anymore.

P.S: Seems to me that selling cars over the Internet would be a great way to get more sales with less expense, no? As a car dealer you may not want to hear it, but e-commerce is the future, and Amazon & eBay are only the beginning.

[LTB51]

I think GM needs to plan towards being profitable at 10-12% market share. Looking at the competition, GM doesn't really deserve any more. That is the new reality, and unless GM plans for it they will continue their death spiral.

[Guest buickman]

Without improved product, selling more cars will end in futility. GM has been trying to polish turds and pawn them off to customers for thirty years now. It worked for a little while, until people caught on that the s**t still stank and ran away. And they've been running away ever since.

Build the product, and the customers will come. Look at examples such as the Chrysler 300, the HUMMER H2, the Mustang... pretty much the entire Cadillac lineup! Even the Toyota Camry is an example of building what the customer wants (a high-quality, innoffensive midsize sedan) and having the customers flock to it. Why GM didn't realize this 10 or 20 years ago is beyond me (and this is not a recent problem, so don't try and pin it on Wagoner), and it seems that with each passing day, it may be too late for GM to build anything at all anymore.

P.S: Seems to me that selling cars over the Internet would be a great way to get more sales with less expense, no? As a car dealer you may not want to hear it, but e-commerce is the future, and Amazon & eBay are only the beginning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just swell. Problem is the misleading of investors by condoning ineptitude in order to methodically transform GM. "Red Ink Rick" therefore has a problematic situation unbecoming a Chairman of the Board. It's with a small organization called the Securities and Exchange Commission. Point of fact...the c in indictment is silent, but notso the Buickman

Buickman

Edited April 1, 2006 by buickman

[Croc]

Point of fact...the c in indictment is silent, but notso the Buickman

))<>((

When the rabbit of chaos is pursued by the ferret of disorder through the fields of anarchy, it is time to hang your pants on the hook of darkness whether they are clean or not.

[ellives]

Holy mouthful batman!

When the rabbit of chaos is pursued by the ferret of disorder through the fields of anarchy, it is time to hang your pants on the hook of darkness whether they are clean or not.

[balthazar]

turbo200: >>"I have read the Plan and it does not address the core issues of what faces GM."<<

Umm- it did not target 'core issues'. Focus on what it DID target and tell me why dealer-level issues should NOT be addressed (see your earlier post regarding 'shudder-inducing' dealers). To refuse to address dealer-level practices is to proclaim they are already running at optimum methodology. You already stated emphatically you don't agree with this.

>>"I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses sales in the coasts, where GM's share is piddling and really reflective of the public's opinion."<<

Interesting- people's opinions somehow carry more relevence merely based on where they live? I would love to see the study results that document this.

>>"I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses out of date product, overcapacity issues, incredible medical and overhead costs, union dealings, quality quality quality, investment, or even his forte, sales environments..."<<

The Plan addresses sales practices. Why would you think those proposals would affect legacy costs or investment or anything other than sales practices? You seem to think GM can be poured into a teacup, requiring only a teaspoon of sugar to make it sweet. You should know it's not that simple of an issue.

This addresses ONE FRONT, not ONE HUNDRED. To fault it for NOT doing what it is NOT doing is incredibly, unfathomably obtuse.

I have no problem cutting thru the huckster spin sometimes accompanying the Plan, but I don't get completely wrapped up in a perceived personality of the author, the immediate result being a whitewashing of real, specific ideas. The day we ban individuals with ideas is the day we begin chiseling a tombstone for GM. Get over your hangups and put on your thinking cap.

[Guest buickman]

Thank you, couldn't have said it any better myself. Your comments are a welcome relief from the unfounded criticisms and needless personal attacks. Also, please remember what was released were only the first twenty steps. Subsequent ideas follow that appropriately address other concerns.

Buickman

[evok]

turbo200: >>"I have read the Plan and it does not address the core issues of what faces GM."<<

Umm- it did not target 'core issues'. Focus on what it DID target and tell me why dealer-level issues should NOT be addressed (see your earlier post regarding 'shudder-inducing' dealers). To refuse to address dealer-level practices is to proclaim they are already running at optimum methodology. You already stated emphatically you don't agree with this.

>>"I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses sales in the coasts, where GM's share is piddling and really reflective of the public's opinion."<<

Interesting- people's opinions somehow carry more relevence merely based on where they live? I would love to see the study results that document this.

>>"I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses out of date product, overcapacity issues, incredible medical and overhead costs, union dealings, quality quality quality, investment, or even his forte, sales environments..."<<

The Plan addresses sales practices. Why would you think those proposals would affect legacy costs or investment or anything other than sales practices? You seem to think GM can be poured into a teacup, requiring only a teaspoon of sugar to make it sweet. You should know it's not that simple of an issue.

This addresses ONE FRONT, not ONE HUNDRED. To fault it for NOT doing what it is NOT doing is incredibly, unfathomably obtuse.

I have no problem cutting thru the huckster spin sometimes accompanying the Plan, but I don't get completely wrapped up in a perceived personality of the author, the immediate result being a whitewashing of real, specific ideas. The day we ban individuals with ideas is the day we begin chiseling a tombstone for GM. Get over your hangups and put on your thinking cap.

This discussion is a moot point. Please go back and read the hundreds, thousands of posts from those that have read and analysed the plan for its merits and practibility. There is no need to rehash a year old discussion once again.

Edited April 1, 2006 by evok

[Guest buickman]

How right you are. It's time to move into the implementation phase and Return to Greatness! Be sure to catch tomorrow's edition of 60 minutes.

Buickman

[Newbiewar]

This discussion is a mute point.  Please go back and read the hundreds, thousands of posts from those that have read and analysed the plan for its merits and practibility.  There is no need to rehash a year old discussion once again.

the thing is to get sales moving regaurdless of product... because for the past at least 10 years GM's been promising the best product in the world... and sales continue to fall when it eventually makes it to the market...

Buickman's just trying to do what he knows how to do... sell cars...

Mark Lanave has a similar story to Jim, and thats why Mark is head of sales advertisement... but for too long has GM been pushing the deal button... if you buy today you will get a great deal, you pay what we pay not a penny more... deals will always improve sales figures... at least for today, tomarrow is a different issue, thats what GM is faced with... they pulled all their customers up a few months... so now we are left without customers...

but this Black Tuesday is not about Buickman and his steps...

Black Tuesday is about the people who lost their jobs due to a more efficent management system (i hope), possibly just because of downsizing...

[balthazar]

I have read them and they are no more supportable than the points they oppose, no matter the degree of conviction. Far too often the discussion deteriorates into personal-based subjectives. 'that's not going to work in CA' and the like is, again, obtuse and misdirective, not objective & factual.

Would you rather do nothing? Is not now prime time to try anything that has even half a chance at making at least SOME positive difference? Or is selling off half of GMAC 'doing something'?

There are no 'mute point' discussions; it's the 11th hour.

[Croc]

Would you rather do nothing? Is not now prime time to try anything that has even half a chance at making at least SOME positive difference? Or is selling off half of GMAC 'doing something'?

There are no 'mute point' discussions; it's the 11th hour.

Is delayering "doing nothing" in your book? So far the GMT900s are exceeding expectations. Is that not proof that something is different?

Just because you can't see the product yet doesn't mean GM's been sitting on its collective ass for the last 4 years.

The Return to Greatness has been picked apart so many times now, but the main 2 things it fails to consider are:

1) It does not address the real problem. Low sales are not the problem; the problem is poor product that leads to low sales. You address the real problem and the sales will come.

2) Much of the Plan is either unenforceable by GM (dealers are autonomous) or downright illegal due to dealer franchise laws, which vary from state to state.

If you want a more specific description of which points are unenforceable and/or illegal, go find one of those other threads with the responses in them.

[turbo200]

Add to this that it does not address another core problem of sales on the coasts. Statistics show GM's lowest sales are on the coasts, where the majority of the population of the United States lives. Currently, public opinion of GM's cars and GM as a company is poor on the coasts, something must be done to fix this.

Too many of Buickman's plan revolved around discounts and the sanctioning of employee-targeted discounts-----not addressing yet again the real core issues, not at the showroom level and not at the product level. To get more sales GM must first learn how to appeal to the affluent, and the people on the coasts better. Once it can appeal then it can be considered. The problem is being considered. No matter what GM does right now it does not get considered. This suggests a radical rethinking in the way product is designed. Right, if your product isn't selling, then you must adjust the product? FROM THERE, Buickman's plan still does not address the sales issues I was referring to. Poor product knowledge, backwards pressure-cooker sales practices, poor ambience, etc etc all of which have a great effect on what the consumer feels about the company and the brand.

The coasts matter most. Come to Los Angeles and count the number of W-body cars on the road [besides new Impala rentals, of which they mostly all are]; when you compare that figure to the number of new GTOs on the road, you will understand GMs core problem is with appealing with the right kind of cars.

Traditionally, the car market is where Gm has faltered, and that is reflected heavily here. Asian and European cars are in abundance, but no Epsilon, W-body, G-body cars are hardly present. Why is this? Why do the trucks do well here but the cars don't? Obviously it's not strictly an image and perception issue---if they had no image Chevrolet with the new Tahoe would be nonexistant, but that isn't the case and I'd be willing to bet the new Tahoe is selling at its best or close to best levels in the LA market.

For years, GM's motto was the mentality of giving the public more car for the money---when in practice all it resulted in too often was a heavier, ponderous, overextended barge of a car. Was the public asking for this? Cue Honda Accord 1988 sales. Cue Toyota Camry through the '90's and up to now. The public was asking simply for a better car. Designed efficiently and proudly with great attention to assembly and engineering. Camry and Accord offered this. Design did not sell them, but it will take got to have killer design to get their grip off the customer's imagination.

Legends of them began in the 90's; we are seeing the ripple effects of the word of mouth turn into 2000's dominance of sales. The public in Los Angeles especially are concerned with image, quality, sophistication, perception, assembly, and efficiency. They don't want a bigger car! They want a better car, with almost all the space of the bigger car in a smaller, more nimble package for handling those twisties and for sophisticated ride setup.

My conclusion is to dare you to come to Los Angeles and count the number of W-bodys on the road, GP, LAcrosse, Intrigue, Impala; all are hardly existant. Meanwhile the Accords, Camrys, Maximas, Altimas, of the road take up the majority of mid-class sales. Then you have the majority class in Los Angeles, the affluent---another market GM has trouble targeting.

Edited April 1, 2006 by turbo200

[evok]

I have read them and they are no more supportable than the points they oppose, no matter the degree of conviction. Far too often the discussion deteriorates into personal-based subjectives. 'that's not going to work in CA' and the like is, again, obtuse and misdirective, not objective & factual.

Would you rather do nothing? Is not now prime time to try anything that has even half a chance at making at least SOME positive difference? Or is selling off half of GMAC 'doing something'?

There are no 'mute point' discussions; it's the 11th hour.

No you have not read them or understand them. Myself and others have gone through them line by line and made a thorough analysis of the plan. This was long before authors true agenda was apparent. The O.C. back in December re-posted his analysis in Dec. Go back and search it and read through them. Knowing The O.C.'s back ground in the industry and with GM, his analysis is a great read. F Body Father on CG and CZ28 also rebutted many of the points in the plan. So this discussion on the Plan is moot and has been hashed for a year now.

Case in point, I have yet to see any OEM uses the key points in the plan. There is a reason for that.

Edited April 1, 2006 by evok

[ellives]

Actually, the expression is "moot point" and not "mute point" as so many people say and write.

I have read them and they are no more supportable than the points they oppose, no matter the degree of conviction. Far too often the discussion deteriorates into personal-based subjectives. 'that's not going to work in CA' and the like is, again, obtuse and misdirective, not objective & factual.

Would you rather do nothing? Is not now prime time to try anything that has even half a chance at making at least SOME positive difference? Or is selling off half of GMAC 'doing something'?

There are no 'mute point' discussions; it's the 11th hour.

[The O.C.]

I have read the Plan and it does not address the core issues of what faces GM. Buickman uses empty phrases like "improved sales" and "number one salesman". Buickman sells Buicks in Flint. I never see Buicks in Los Angeles. Never. I see about 40 BMW 3-series' every time I drive within a 4 mile radius. Address this problem and you save GM.

I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses sales in the coasts, where GM's share is piddling and really reflective of the public's opinion. I don't see anywhere in the Plan where Buickman addresses out of date product, overcapacity issues, incredible medical and overhead costs, union dealings, quality quality quality, investment, or even his forte, sales environments, of which GM still lags behind the competition [ever been in a Cadillac showroom and then an MB or Lexus showroom, ya world of difference].

Thanks Turbo....! I was getting sick and tired of countering his bantering, so I'm glad you did it...and I agree 100% with your assessment.

[Guest buickman]

Sales on the coasts is easy once image is changed. Perception is reality. Perhaps you failed to notice that Toyota raised the price of Camry and increased dealer margin. POI, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and others visit GeneralWatch almost daily so they must see something besides entertainment as you will claim.

More Ziegler:

"In truth, the manufacturers are not going to listen to Jim Ziegler or Jim Dollinger or any sane voice of experienced reason. The know-it-all… know-nothing… arrogance of fools in denial always prevails over logic and common sense. They are content to stand their ground pursuing Red Tag Sales and Value Promises…and other ridiculous, non-profitable, alleged marketing strategies that obviously are not working (as in never-ever will work, not in a million, billion or trillion years) while market share dives into the toilet. I am so sick of fire sale, distressed merchandise marketing. I am genuinely ticked off that these manufacturers would resort to ‘Value-Pricing’ and ‘One-Price’ pressure on their dealers to mask their inadequacy and compress profit margins to the point that dealers will suffer and many will die.

I just spoke to Dollinger as I was writing this paragraph and he gave me permission…you may call him at (586) 914-2842…or e-mail him at [email protected]."

Buickman

Edited April 1, 2006 by buickman

[The O.C.]

I have no problem cutting thru the huckster spin sometimes accompanying the Plan, but I don't get completely wrapped up in a perceived personality of the author, the immediate result being a whitewashing of real, specific ideas. The day we ban individuals with ideas is the day we begin chiseling a tombstone for GM. Get over your hangups and put on your thinking cap.

Balthazar,

In the past, I've presented on here (numerous times) a COMPREHENSIVE review of Buickman's "20 Points for a Return to Greatness" and would be more than willing to share those comments of mine again, should you wish to see them.

I have no problem with someone that has ideas, however, Dollinger presents his 20 Points as a way to "save GM." In THAT context, it appears as a child's-like view on the overall General Motors struggle for survival.

My criticism on Jim is not on him as a person himself, but on his very narrow level of experience in this industry (contrary to what he portrays himself as) based upon his carrer as a top-selling Buick salesperson in Flint, Michigan. This experience level certainly doesn't reflect the car industry in the majority of the U.S.A. and doesn't even begin to reflect what GM is facing (as Turbo said) in California, the east coast, and other import-dominated markets.

JMHO.

[The O.C.]

Sales on the coasts is easy once image is changed.

Jim,

Your statment just PROVES to me that you don't "get it."

Also referring to Turbo's post a couple of posts back, it seems like we (those of us in coastal CA) are doing nothing but but unless you live here, and see it daily, months and years on end, you really can't understand what the automotive market out here says about the industry in general.

I'm not saying GM's performance (or lack thereof) on the coasts is the single most important factor, but it IS a vital factor that needs to be addressed (along with their other challenges of legacy costs, etc.)

A couple of notations.......a few months ago, I did an experiment where I counted over 200 cars in a parking lot at a middle-to-upscale shopping/dining/entertainment center here in south Orange County. Of all the cars I counted, not a SINGLE NEW DESIGN GM CAR was found. No LaCrosses, no Impalas, no G6s, no Lucerne's, not even any late model Grand Prix, Malibus, etc. (Not even any rentals.) The only GM products in those 200 cars were either full-size SUVs and/or trucks, or significantly older models. In fact, there were more Mercedes-Benz products and almost as many BMW products in the count than TOTAL "Big 3" models. THIS was an (admittingly non-scientific) study that really opened my eyes.

As soon as I get some free time, I'm going to do my same experiment in part of the parking structure for John Wayne Airport (Orange County.) I think you all will be AMAZED at the results.

Cadillac HAS started to break into this market with cars, but ONLY with the CTS. The STS isn't even a competitor in California and the DTS still only seems to appeal to older clientele. The CTS, however, is a viable competitor in CA for import brands. One friend traded in his Audi A6 2.7T for the CTS and is very happy. So, GM can do it!

Also, I get NUMEROUS positive comments regarding my C6 convertible even in the toniest of southern California beach cities.....some of these comments coming even from jaded Porsche and BMW owners.

One BMW 750Li driver stopped me at the grocery store parking lot and asked me how I liked my new Corvette. (He still had the temporary tags on his new BMW.) Of course, I glowingly praised it and he said he was really impressed with the car. However, he said (GET THIS) ...."but I'm a Porsche guy and couldn't imagine ever buying a GM car again after the experiences I had in the past..."

SO....all his approval for my C6 was just thrown down the drain by his overall perception of GM vehicles.

That, Mr. Dollinger, is the challenge the GM is really facing. (And he drove away a VERY happy camper in his new, $80K BMW.)

[Flybrian]

One BMW 750Li driver stopped me at the grocery store parking lot and asked me how I liked my new Corvette.  (He still had the temporary tags on his new BMW.)  Of course, I glowingly praised it and he said he was really impressed with the car.  However, he said (GET THIS) ...."but I'm a Porsche guy and couldn't imagine ever buying a GM car again after the experiences I had in the past..."

Not to detract from the meaning of your response, but is really that difficult for a car dealer to get a real license plate for a customer or is it different in California? My Buick dealer was able to get one for me, as well as my father's Pontiac dealer.

[The O.C.]

Not to detract from the meaning of your response, but is really that difficult for a car dealer to get a real license plate for a customer or is it different in California? My Buick dealer was able to get one for me, as well as my father's Pontiac dealer.

When a consumer buys a new car, the actual CA tags take 60-90 days to get shipped to the consumer from DMV.

The dealer provides, at time of sale, a temporary registration that gets attached to the lower passenger-side of the windshield.....and the dealer installs "temporary" plastic "tags" in the front and rear (usually sporting the dealership's logo/name, etc.)

That's how you can tell (usually) that someone has a new car.....in THIS case, the 750Li had "Irvine BMW" plastic tags in back.....that's really how I knew his car was new.

[Guest buickman]

You have excellent points that I wholeheartedly agree with. I travel fairly extensively and often stay at upscale hotels and resorts. Last time I was at the Four Seasons in Philly, I saw one CTS and one Escalade. The rest were foereign nameplates except a couple 300's. It really upsets me because people are not that savvy, it's all about image and what they're seen in, and owning. GM has good products. Yes they can always improve, but RIGHT NOW we can change people's perception and increase sales, and do it for considerably less money.

I did not start this for direct personal gain, but when completed, I did think to ask for compensation if, and when, it works. I only asked for upfront money when LaNeve said I'd have to resign at Suski. (then he did his backstroke after talking to Red Ink Rick). The man's word and handshake mean absolutely nothing to me and apparently to him either.

Buickman

Edited April 1, 2006 by buickman

[The O.C.]

You have excellent points that I wholeheartedly agree with. I travel fairly extensively and often stay at upscale hotels and resorts. Last time I was at the Four Seasons in Philly, I saw one CTS and one Escalade. The rest were foereign nameplates except a couple 300's. It really upsets me because people are not that savvy, it's all about image and what they're seen in, and owning. GM has good products. Yes they can always improve, but RIGHT NOW we can change people's perception and increase sales, and do it for considerably less money.

You're right....

But do you REALLY understand the level of significance of the challenge to change these peoples' perceptions....?

Do you understand the fact that vast generations of young people now.....(say my age...35...and younger) GREW UP in import-dominated familes.....and have NO understanding or realization of GM's "glory days" like many of us enthusiasts on here do...?

Or understand the fact that a vast, growing majority of ELDERLY consumers (in California, for example) are driving Camrys and Accords as opposed to Chevys and Buicks?

In many cases, now, you are not trying to just "change" consumers perceptions....you have to convince them to try something (domestic, or GM, automobiles) they've never even considered before!

One example from me......my Mom worked for Buick for 16 years and retired from GM. (They have retired in Tampa, FL.) My parents (who drive a 2000 Regal GS, 1999 Corvette coupe, and a 2004 BMW 330Ci convertible) said they were looking to trade in the Regal for a midsize SUV. I was so excited about the new Enclave, that I told my Mom to wait until later this year to look at the new Buick because I think it's SO hot and a great new product from GM. My Mom's response? "I don't want another 'Buick'....I've worked hard in my life and I'm ready for a 'luxury' car." They are looking at Lexus RX330s.

So....quite a statement, eh? And this is from a woman that ALWAYS drove GM vehicles. If it's that tough to change HER perspective, how are we gonna do it for all these people that have NO allegiance to GM...? (and by the way, she's OVERJOYED with her new BMW convertible.....even at 63 years old.)

My point....GM (and Buick) isn't even appealing to the over 60-year-old set like they used to....

[Guest buickman]

That is a shame given that the boomer generation is moving directly through Buick's demographic. Certainly getting import owners to consider GM would not be necessarily easy, it's just that it can be done for considerably less expense than paying millions to useless spokesmen, printing silly Red Tags to hang in snow covered vehicles, advertising heated washer fluid in Florida, and paying for full page ads nationwide with distress merchandising pricing which is self destructive.

Many have criticized Return to Greatness because of the focus on the retail level. Yet we all know that dealer service needs to improve. The marketing of our products is the worst in the industry in my opinion. Once we correct these low hanging fruit, we can move into some of the next steps.

Thanks to Wildman for bringing us all back around to discussing the issues and realizing we are virtually all here for the same reason...improving GM while there still is a chance.

Buickman

Edited April 1, 2006 by buickman

[Satty]

Get rid of traditional dealers, sell cars over the internet, have GM stores with no traditional salespeople, just people who let you look over the car, hand over the keys for a test drive and do paperwork for people unable or unwilling to buy online. Set pricing low, like where they are after all incentives so haggling isn't an issue. That would get rid of all of the worthless douchebags, the scum of the earth, the most unloved and unwanted people alive, car salesmen.

[Petra]

Excellent synopsis there, wildmanjoe. I agree that we should move on from the name-calling and try harder to address the real issues here.

Sales on the coasts is easy once image is changed.

You've got the right idea here, but the trouble is, image isn't easy to change. It isn't something that can change overnight; it takes years to build a reputation (or lose it). Right now, GM simply does not have the time or the money to invest in changing their image through marketing (i.e: polishing turds). That money could be better spent (IMO) by building products that the customers will want, which, in turn, will slowly begin to build up brand equity and change image. Unfortunately, it's looking like GM might not have the time or money to do this right now, either.

For the record, while I agree that some change at the top needs to take place at GM, but, frankly, I don't see what removing Rick Wagoner would really accomplish... especially if the person taking his place was another equally inneffective individual brought up in the GM culture. I look forward to any future suggestions from anyone on who would be a successful candidate for the position of GM CEO.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'm not so sure its just image. I think there are alot of people out there who do know the difference between the products, and they affect the image.

I was talking to one girl last week about cars. Shes 19. Her whole family has only owned European cars. Right now she owns a c230 kompressor, her mom owns a e55 AMG, and she will be buying an M3 soon. I asked her why she doesn't like American cars, and her answer wasn't what I was expecting. She said it's because they never pay attention to the details. I couldn't argue with her on that, because in many ways its true. I told her about the new Tahoe and she said it sounds like they may be learning, and said maybe in 5 years she will consider an American car. So to me, that sounds more like a product problem, than an image problem. Fix the product, image will follow. Sell more substandard product, and you will have more unhappy customers. Thats why selling more cars is not the problem.

[Guest buickman]

Really not to brag but by making simple, logical changes at Suski we increased new unit deliveries 52% from 04 to 05. We focused only on image and customer treatment and never advertised price payment or rebate. We still have a lnog way to go and change is almost never easy. I preach to the employees that our biggest obstacles to success are within the building. Sometimes you just have to realize there is a better way.

I was talking to a woman myself about cars the other day and she told me she wanted that "New BMW that Cadillac is making". That my friend is image and perception.

Also, a couple years ago I met a friend of mine on the east coast. He worked for Al Lehner, head of MBNA Bank. He drove a BMW. I folllowed him to his home in lower PA and when we arrived I asked him if he knew what BMW stood for. He said of course Bavarian Motor Werks. I told him was wrong, it's actually Bag Man Wheels. He's now in a Tahoe.

Buickman

Edited April 1, 2006 by buickman

[Croc]

I was talking to a woman myself about cars the other day and she told me she wanted that "New BMW that Cadillac is making". That my friend is image and perception.

))<>((

No. That my friend is sheer stupidity and ignorance.

[ellives]

She's a lemming... just like everybody else. No offense intended. And by the way, age has nothing to do with it. You'll feel the same as you do now when you're 63.

You're right....

But do you REALLY understand the level of significance of the challenge to change these peoples' perceptions....?

Do you understand the fact that vast generations of young people now.....(say my age...35...and younger) GREW UP in import-dominated familes.....and have NO understanding or realization of GM's "glory days" like many of us enthusiasts on here do...?

Or understand the fact that a vast, growing majority of ELDERLY consumers (in California, for example) are driving Camrys and Accords as opposed to Chevys and Buicks?

In many cases, now, you are not trying to just "change" consumers perceptions....you have to convince them to try something (domestic, or GM, automobiles) they've never even considered before!

One example from me......my Mom worked for Buick for 16 years and retired from GM.  (They have retired in Tampa, FL.)  My parents (who drive a 2000 Regal GS, 1999 Corvette coupe, and a 2004 BMW 330Ci convertible) said they were looking to trade in the Regal for a midsize SUV.  I was so excited about the new Enclave, that I told my Mom to wait until later this year to look at the new Buick because I think it's SO hot and a great new product from GM.  My Mom's response?  "I don't want another 'Buick'....I've worked hard in my life and I'm ready for a 'luxury' car."  They are looking at Lexus RX330s.

So....quite a statement, eh?  And this is from a woman that ALWAYS drove GM vehicles.  If it's that tough to change HER perspective, how are we gonna do it for all these people that have NO allegiance to GM...?  (and by the way, she's OVERJOYED with her new BMW convertible.....even at 63 years old.)

My point....GM (and Buick) isn't even appealing to the over 60-year-old set like they used to....

[ellives]

And we allow those people to actually vote. Sigh.

I was talking to a woman myself about cars the other day and she told me she wanted that "New BMW that Cadillac is making". That my friend is image and perception.

[ellives]

To me that sounds like someone put words into her mouth. No kid at 19 (especially a girl - sorry libbers) has had enough experience owning and driving cars to have come to a conclusion like that on their own.

I'm not so sure its just image. I think there are alot of people out there who do know the difference between the products, and they affect the image.

I was talking to one girl last week about cars. Shes 19. Her whole family has only owned European cars. Right now she owns a c230 kompressor,  her mom owns a e55 AMG, and she will be buying an M3 soon. I asked her why she doesn't like American cars, and her answer wasn't what I was expecting. She said it's because they never pay attention to the details. I couldn't argue with her on that, because in many ways its true. I told her about the new Tahoe and she said it sounds like they may be learning, and said maybe in 5 years she will consider an American car. So to me, that sounds more like a product problem, than an image problem. Fix the product, image will follow. Sell more substandard product, and you will have more unhappy customers. Thats why selling more cars is not the problem.

[CaddyXLR-V]

To me that sounds like someone put words into her mouth. No kid at 19 (especially a girl - sorry libbers) has had enough experience owning and driving cars to have come to a conclusion like that on their own.

She actually knew quite a bit about cars, more than I expected her to. Though whether it was through her experience or not, I couldnt disagree with her.

I've can pick out some areas on my moms 04 malibu where GM could have paid alot more attention to the details.

In the end, it all comes down to who can make the best product, with the least amount of cost. Right now, GM can make cars that are not as good as the competion, but still cost more to build, that is the problem. Not how many they sell.

Edited April 2, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V