G6 a success...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm live and go to school in a college town (imagine that... apparently I'm captain obvious today too)

I see MORE G6's than any other GM vehicle... They even out number COBALTS here.

As we speak, there are 3 of them sitting in the parking lot of my apartment complex.

Apparently it's a pretty BIG hit, ESPECIALLY among the young, COLLEGE set (Which are MOSTLY import influenced)

Now I know this is just personal observation and that it doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. But, it seems to me that GM has some positive momentum with the G6, especially in the audience that it is apparently appealing to. The coupe and convertible should only serve to further this.

I'd just like to give CREDIT where it's due! (Unlike the "G6 is a failure" media) The G6 IS selling and Pontiac DOES hold equity with YOUNG people. GM needs to EXPAND on this and keep growing the brand now that it seems that they've got the peoples attention.

This just goes to show that "Damaged brands" CAN fight the stigma and when good product is offered, (The G6 isn't as good as it should be but it certainly the best VOLUME Epsilon, as of now, that is) people will **STILL** buy and consider domestics.

"DAMAGED BRANDS" ARE ONLY AS 'DAMAGED' AS YOU ALLOW THEM TO BE!!! The G6 conquests (however small they may be, or large, 11th best selling) and the Lucerne SUCCESS is PROOF of this!

Anybody else notice this too???

[Cory Wolfe]

Nope... G6's are like Honda's here in Brookville; a rarity. No where near the success the Grand Am had around here. I still say the name change has alot to do with it... as well as the G6's obvious problems. I mean... it's bland. Brookvillians love exciting designs.

[ToniCipriani]

Definitely. While driving home with my friend I saw a stream of G6s going past us. Sadly I wasn't driving.

And oh wait... FOG is optimistic???!! Do you see the pig flying??

[Satty]

I'm the opposite in a way, I live in a college town (we have one big one, a couple of less big ones an a huge community college) and while the number of G6s on the roads seem to be increasing, they are non-existant in the college neighborhoods. I've never seen one in any of the dorm or Greek parking lots or in the parking garages.

[evok]

Lets look at the numbers:

Back in Feb. 2001 GM sold app. 17,000 Grand Ams for the month. Fast forward to Feb. 2006 where GM sold app. 10,000 G6s.

Not bad for a damaged brand.

Sales are down 40%.

So much for "We Build Excitement"!

Edited March 27, 2006 by evok

[ToniCipriani]

Lets look at the numbers:

Back in Feb. 2001 GM sold app. 17,000 Grand Ams for the month.  Fast forward to Feb. 2006 where GM sold app. 10,000 G6s.

Not bad for a damaged brand.

Sales are down 40%.

So much for "We Build Excitement"!

Fleet sales?

[I hope GMRULES again]

In my neck of the woods, Montreal, G6's are now selling very well ( I don't have local statistics) but I am seeing more and more of them all the time so I know they are catching on. My brother rented one last weekend for a trip down to NYC and was very impressed by it ( he drives a 04 Matrix). I pick up Detroit tv stations with my dish and they always have news about the auto industry and they did a story on the G6 saying that it was really starting to catch on. They interviewed 2 different analyists, one from J.D. power and the other I don't remember where he was from but they said the coupe was what was really starting to help sales and that 40% of coupe sales were conquest sales. Maybe its #'s are down compared to GA but GA's used to fill the rental lots so maybe the G6 is doing better on the retail side. 99 % of the G6's I see here are sedans.

[The O.C.]

Back in Feb. 2001 GM sold app. 17,000 Grand Ams for the month.  Fast forward to Feb. 2006 where GM sold app. 10,000 G6s.

In a car, while not segment-leading, is a vast improvement over the Grand Am....!

[Northstar]

I think G6 retail sales are better than previous Grand Am retail sales, as the GA was heavily fleeted.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Lets look at the numbers:

Back in Feb. 2001 GM sold app. 17,000 Grand Ams for the month.  Fast forward to Feb. 2006 where GM sold app. 10,000 G6s.

Not bad for a damaged brand.

Sales are down 40%.

So much for "We Build Excitement"!

1) My post wasn't about numbers.... Rather image and appeal.

2) Naturally the numbers are going to trend down since SHARE IS TANKING.

3) I'd like to know if the coupe is fully ramped by now and how much that affects sales (I'm sure it probably is fully up by now though)

4) How do the prices of the 2 compare? I'd be willing to bet that the Grand Am was comparatively cheaper.

5) How do fleet sales factor in? I know G6 sales to fleets, but in 2001 the Grand Am was already 5 years old and I'm willing to bet tht fleet sales were through the roof.

And OBVIOUSLY, if the G6 IS appealing to people my age then Pontiac apparently DOES still build some sort of excitement in addition to the GTO and Solstice.

And oh wait... FOG is optimistic???!! Do you see the pig flying??

LOL... Yep, I have my moments of bravery. But don't worry, when in relation to GM they're always followed by subsequent failure and misery. (Which is not at all always GM's fault)

J/K

[turbo200]

three weeks ago i would have said hardly see any ever. but now...i've been seeing a lot more. still not a hit here, but starting to gather momentum? probably not, though I do wish it was, i really like the shape of the g6

[ToniCipriani]

And just speaking of G6s, I've seen a few 3 again, within 30 minutes. All well equipped GTs.

[jrockb4]

I was thinking the same thing as FOG, here in the north Dallas area I see quite a few of them and the drivers generally seem to be in the 20's range. They would seem to be doing pretty well here.

[evok]

In a car, while not segment-leading, is a vast improvement over the Grand Am....!

The numbers do not lie, even if it is a better car.

[evok]

1) My post wasn't about numbers.... Rather image and appeal.

2) Naturally the numbers are going to trend down since SHARE IS TANKING.

3) I'd like to know if the coupe is fully ramped by now and how much that affects sales (I'm sure it probably is fully up by now though)

4) How do the prices of the 2 compare? I'd be willing to bet that the Grand Am was comparatively cheaper.

5) How do fleet sales factor in? I know G6 sales to fleets, but in 2001 the Grand Am was already 5 years old and I'm willing to bet tht fleet sales were through the roof.

And OBVIOUSLY, if the G6 IS appealing to people my age then Pontiac apparently DOES still build some sort of excitement in addition to the GTO and Solstice.

LOL... Yep, I have my moments of bravery. But don't worry, when in relation to GM they're always followed by subsequent failure and misery. (Which is not at all always GM's fault)

J/K

"I'd just like to give CREDIT where it's due! (Unlike the "G6 is a failure" media) The G6 IS selling and Pontiac DOES hold equity with YOUNG people."

I posted the numbers that were implied in this statement.

The Grand Am was new in 1999 and not 5 years old in 2001.

In real dollars - the current G6 is cheaper, though as a percentage less reliant on on fleet, retail sales of the 2001 GM in sales appears to be greater.

I selected the years I did because they should reflect full production and model availability.

My comments are data driven - I find it irrelevant to make comments such as:

I was in Florida and I saw 40 Lincoln Town Cars one day, the car must be selling well.

Edited March 28, 2006 by evok

[Camino LS6]

I too, have been seeing more and more of them on the road. Haven't paid much attention to the drivers though, so I can't offer much on that front. I have never been a fan of the car but I have noticed a definite trend upward in their numbers around here.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

"I'd just like to give CREDIT where it's due! (Unlike the "G6 is a failure" media) The G6 IS selling and Pontiac DOES hold equity with YOUNG people."

I posted the numbers that were implied in this statement.

I never implied ANY numbers in that statement. EQUITY and appeal does not equal numbers. If that were the case then GM could sell 200,000 Z06s a year.

The Grand Am was new in 1999 and not 5 years old in 2001.

My bad... I thought the latest iteration was introduced in 1997. BUt I do remember 1999 now.

My comments are data driven - I find it irrelevant to make comments such as:

I was in Florida and I saw 40 Lincoln Town Cars one day, the car must be selling well.

Look man, no offense but we all know your "DATA DRIVEN; I'M AN INSIDER" spiel... This is neither an insider exclusive nor data exclusive forum. It's a place for DISCUSSION.

And I even qualified the post with this DISCLAIMER: "I know this is just personal observation and doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things."

Just because you think Pontiac (And most other GM brands) are irrelevant doesn't mean the rest of us share that same media fueled and created pessimism.

[97regalGS]

evok just added some facts into the discussion. and without facts, the discussion is not as informative.

i see lots of G6's around here too, but 84,000 units/year(at current pace) less is a significant number

[ponchoman49]

The $16990 value edition sedans are flying off dealer lots in my area. The coupes are slow sellers. Most of the 10 or so on the dealer lots are the same ones they had last year but moved in different spots to make everyone think they are different. I see base and Gt sedans all the time. The G6 would no doubt sell better if it wasn't for the fact that the Grand Am had a lot of teething problems from 1999 onwards and the media always blasted it for the side cladding and mickey mouse dash board ears. I have yet to talk to anyone with one of those cars that hasn't been through 20 sets of brakes, several intake manifold gaskets or even blown engines or cracked heads on the old 2.4 knock off of the Quad 4. My best friend bought a 1999 SE3 sedan with every option and litterally hated the car after one year of ownership and vowed never to buy a Pontiac again due to all the problems he had with it! It's this sort of thing that has damaged Pontiac and GM/Ford in general and what they need so desperatly to work on and change peoples minds that there current products are a lot better than before. I have got my buddy reluctantly to admit that the current Pontiacs are pretty good but it's going to be a while before he ever sets foot in one again, something that I correlate to the public in general.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Is the G6 a better car than Grand Am? Of course it is! Grand Am was one of the worst cars out there, IMO! But not so fast! While G6 is increasingly popular (mainly in the Base I-4/V-6 sedans, while a few GT coupes are trickling in), there's a lot of work on those that could be done, such as increasing the passenger and cargo room by modifying the rear roofline a bit, also so it is not directly overhead of the rear passengers. The coupe is like a successor not only to G6 and Alero coupes, but I also see it as one to the former Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme/Pontiac Grand Prix, even Buick Regal coupes, and seeing as how G6 has a longer wheelbase, at 112.3" than all of the above models, it should have a lot more or at least comparable passenger and cargo room, right? And all G6's are sadly compact cars according to the EPA-really poor use of packaging, even though it is a sporty car (note: it CAN be done in a way that balances sporty fastback/semi-fastback styling with a decent balance of room). Of course, there's also engines and equipment as we all know can be worked on heavily, along with parts of the interior. If GM can do it right-we all know they're more than capable-then the G6 can be even greater.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Mule Bakersdozen LS

[evok]

Why do you see older people driving luxury vehicles?

Because they can afford them.

Why do younger people drive entry level vehicles?

Because that is all they can afford.

I doubt this data has changed all that much.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-0...-age-charts.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-0...age-chart-2.htm

Somewhere is a previous Pontiac discussion I posted a recent link to Pontiac's demographics. The average age was app. what was in the older USA Today article. I believe it was 42.

[Cory Wolfe]

Lets look at the numbers:

Back in Feb. 2001 GM sold app. 17,000 Grand Ams for the month.  Fast forward to Feb. 2006 where GM sold app. 10,000 G6s.

Not bad for a damaged brand.

Sales are down 40%.

So much for "We Build Excitement"!

"I'd just like to give CREDIT where it's due! (Unlike the "G6 is a failure" media) The G6 IS selling and Pontiac DOES hold equity with YOUNG people."

I posted the numbers that were implied in this statement.

The Grand Am was new in 1999 and not 5 years old in 2001.

In real dollars - the current G6 is cheaper, though as a percentage less reliant on on fleet, retail sales of the 2001 GM in sales appears to be greater.

I selected the years I did because they should reflect full production and model availability.

My comments are data driven - I find it irrelevant to make comments such as:

I was in Florida and I saw 40 Lincoln Town Cars one day, the car must be selling well.

See? The numbers don't lie. I'll take a 5th gen GAGT, please.

[turbo200]

G6 needs macho styling. Grand Am was effiminate, but in a burly tough, and sometimes really sporty looking way. The GTP captures the spirit well with its big haunces and wheels and sporty decor, but is priced out of the market of the old GA GT. The new G6 GT is just too fem. The base wheels with no spokes at all, just a big fat cover of a wheel is heinous. The spokes like Ciprian has in his sig are good for the base car. Still it needs more flair in the exterior. It can look like an Accord, a better looking Accord, with more style, but not more panache. The coupe needs a more dynamic interior to justify the price hike, and is again very feminine. The old coupe was fem, but again in a heavy, ponderous kind of way [not talking about the drive]. The concept looks manlier, something in the curves of the production version is off. The interior is not befitting of its class in either version. Make these fixes and I predict the sales would start taking off in the direction of the old GA. Base G6 coupe needs to exist with like a 17.5k price line. That's one I saw being snapped up a lot in the old days. I don't know that the packaging is a real problem....it seems to be in line with competition and is roomier than predecessor, but it needs to be cause the GA was small inside. Wider G6 would help things.

[buddyb]

hey, first time long time.

I live in North Toronto and I've been impressed with the number of G6 sedans that I've seen over the last number of months. I was walking home from the subway the other day, a two block walk, and I saw 4 G6's basically parked in row one behind the other. I personally love the styling of this car and would definately consider it if I were purchasing a new vehicle in the near future. I've also seen tonnes of Allure's (Lacrosse's) and new Impallas as well. The new GM products seem to be catching on here at least. Even the warmed over "sport crossover vans" are everywhere up here.

Just thought I'd share my observations.

Ciao,

lks.

[pow]

I honestly don't recall seeing a single non-fleet G6 this month. On the other hand, I saw two '07 Camries just today.

[ToniCipriani]

I honestly don't recall seeing a single non-fleet G6 this month. On the other hand, I saw two '07 Camries just today.

Again, I've been seeing the exact opposite. All with dealer plate frames, and I've seen only a few with Enterprise stickers.

Or maybe just our special affectionate for Pontiac

[Clownzilla]

Well, here in southern MO, it is pretty popular (domestics still rule the roads here). I'm close to adding one of the G6 verts to my garage (1 more on the road).

[ponchoman49]

I honestly don't recall seeing a single non-fleet G6 this month. On the other hand, I saw two '07 Camries just today.

Exact opposite in Upstate, NY. Haven't seen one 07 Camry on the road yet. Tons of them sitting in dealer lots though!

[ponchoman49]

I think Pontiac needs to refine this car a bit before it will really take off. It was like this with the 2000 Impala. As time went on it really took off in sales, especially when Chevy changed the leather seats, added more std equipment and improved quality. The G6 needs some polish added to the interior, nicer cloth seat material and better dash plastics, a lower priced 2.4 coupe with 6 speed manual, available options on the $16990 value series sedan, eliminate the base 4 cylinder sedan and V6 sedan and instead have the GT with 3500 VVT and GTP with 3.6 DOHC and 6 speed auto or manual at lower prices and please Pontiac get rid of those horrid cheap looking plastic wheel covers on the base models.

[ToniCipriani]

They should make the available options equal on the 4-cylinder an 6-cylinder. Foglamps and cargo nets aren't even available as an option on the 4-cylinder.

[enzl]

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../603290375/1148

Scroll down to chart listing G6 as #7 in total fleet sales. Huge, raging success, I'd say....a rental queen like its predecessors....that's why you see so many.

Edited March 29, 2006 by enzl

[ToniCipriani]

Those are '05 numbers. Most numbers I see on the road are '06s.

Edited March 29, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[enzl]

Those are '05 numbers. Most numbers I see on the road are '06s.

Correct. 'O6's went on sale in '05.....I can only imagine that the sales have increased or stayed the same, for the most part.

[ToniCipriani]

Correct. 'O6's went on sale in '05.....I can only imagine that the sales have increased or stayed the same, for the most part.

Not really. '06s weren't available until very late in the year. I got an '06 and the dealer had a hard time looking for one.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think Pontiac needs to refine this car a bit before it will really take off. It was like this with the 2000 Impala. As time went on it really took off in sales, especially when Chevy changed the leather seats, added more std equipment and improved quality. The G6 needs some polish added to the interior, nicer cloth seat material and better dash plastics, a lower priced 2.4 coupe with 6 speed manual, available options on the $16990 value series sedan, eliminate the base 4 cylinder sedan and V6 sedan and instead have the GT with 3500 VVT and GTP with 3.6 DOHC and 6 speed auto or manual at lower prices and please Pontiac get rid of those horrid cheap looking plastic wheel covers on the base models.

Agreed on all accounts... The wheel covers are more hideous than the replacements you can buy at Wal-Mart.

But more importantly, it seems that Pontiac has become the "catch all" GM division that Chevrolet was circa 2000 (Excluding trucks) They have an AWESOME halo car but not much on the side of volume entries.

So why doesn't GM say; "Hey, we realize that you're just getting bones right now, so here's $20 bucks to personalize and BETTER your existing products until we can get some REAL show stoppers in the showroom."

That way, Pontiac could DIFFERENTIATE and BETTER the G5 and G6 lines, keep the Solstice fresh and not let the GP get COMPLETELY irrelevant.

The G6 and G5 are the foundation for VERY competitive and VERY enticing cars, they just need to go to finishing school, and since Pontiac is no longer so much a volume division per se and isn't in a great position anyway, why not GET a little closer to what Pontiac used to be back in the 60's (The bad boy of GM) and spice the cars up a bit? What could it hurt? It might even increase sales and create buzz! And, when combined with the Solstice, it would begin to rebuild the divisions image for the introduction of the REAL hot stuff (New GTO/G8, NG G6, Ep II G6) in a few years (On the cheap to boot)

The G6 IMO has been a success.... I see MORE of them around here than I see Cobalts or Malibus. In fact, the only GM car that comes close to the same numbers around here is the new Impala. I've seen 2 2007 Camries since they launched, quite a few Lucernes/DTS (Which seems to be the more popular of the 2) FWIW.

[Buick61]

I'm live and go to school in a college town (imagine that... apparently I'm captain obvious today too)

I see MORE G6's than any other GM vehicle... They even out number COBALTS here.

As we speak, there are 3 of them sitting in the parking lot of my apartment complex.

Apparently it's a pretty BIG hit, ESPECIALLY among the young, COLLEGE set (Which are MOSTLY import influenced)

Now I know this is just personal observation and that it doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. But, it seems to me that GM has some positive momentum with the G6, especially in the audience that it is apparently appealing to. The coupe and convertible should only serve to further this.

I'd just like to give CREDIT where it's due! (Unlike the "G6 is a failure" media) The G6 IS selling and Pontiac DOES hold equity with YOUNG people. GM needs to EXPAND on this and keep growing the brand now that it seems that they've got the peoples attention.

This just goes to show that "Damaged brands" CAN fight the stigma and when good product is offered, (The G6 isn't as good as it should be but it certainly the best VOLUME Epsilon, as of now, that is) people will **STILL** buy and consider domestics.

"DAMAGED BRANDS" ARE ONLY AS 'DAMAGED' AS YOU ALLOW THEM TO BE!!! The G6 conquests (however small they may be, or large, 11th best selling) and the Lucerne SUCCESS is PROOF of this!

Anybody else notice this too???

Like said above, maybe because 41% of Pontiacs went into fleet duty in the 4th quarter of '05. The G6 is on the top 10 list of most fleet sales isn't helping.

Mine is worthless because of it. Two months after I bought it, the resale value was quoted between $15,500 and $18,000 (it had 2,400 miles on it at the time). The original sticker was $29,355. I paid $25,500. 40% is a lot to lose in two months, especially for a 2006 model.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Buick61

[Buick61]

Not really. '06s weren't available until very late in the year. I got an '06 and the dealer had a hard time looking for one.

The '06s went into production early, in April if I remember correctly. There were nothing but 2006 models when I was looking in September. Not one 2005 model anywhere.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../603290375/1148

Scroll down to chart listing G6 as #7 in total fleet sales. Huge, raging success, I'd say....a rental queen like its predecessors....that's why you see so many.

LOL... This from the man who thinks GM should PAY for its sins apparently.

You know how I can pick out the "insiders" or "media" on this site?

They're always the ones that take a crap on ALL the positives GM threads on this board simply because they are HELLBENT on killing GM (Well, either that or APPARENTLY brainwashed into thinking GM is going to die or SHOULD die no matter what)

It's no f*cking wonder that GM gets the press it gets if the sentiment THROUGHOUT the analysts and media is as bad as it is throughout the "insiders" and "media" here.

Keep in mind commoners (Like me) these people have OPINIONS and AGENDAS just like you and me and a lot of the time it seems to shine through. (Make GM pay or the only GM divisions relevant are Chevrolet/Cadillac/Saturn, just to pinpoint 2, etc.)

I'm aware that numbers don't lie and I never qualified numbers in ANY of my posts in this topic and made it clear that my attitude was a result of PURE observation to be taken with a grain of salt.

And P.S. The majority of G6s I've seen ARE NOT fleet because they are 1) loaded GTs or GTPs and 2) I've lived and went to school with these people for the past 3-4 months. I've never known someone to rent a car for 3-4 months.

[enzl]

LOL... This from the man who thinks GM should PAY for its sins apparently.

You know how I can pick out the "insiders" or "media" on this site?

They're always the ones that take a crap on ALL the positives GM threads on this board simply because they are HELLBENT on killing GM (Well, either that or APPARENTLY brainwashed into thinking GM is going to die or SHOULD die no matter what)

It's no f*cking wonder that GM gets the press it gets if the sentiment THROUGHOUT the analysts and media is as bad as it is throughout the "insiders" and "media" here.

Keep in mind commoners (Like me) these people have OPINIONS and AGENDAS just like you and me and a lot of the time it seems to shine through. (Make GM pay or the only GM divisions relevant are Chevrolet/Cadillac/Saturn, just to pinpoint 2, etc.)

I'm aware that numbers don't lie and I never qualified numbers in ANY of my posts in this topic and made it clear that my attitude was a result of PURE observation to be taken with a grain of salt.

And P.S. The majority of G6s I've seen ARE NOT fleet because they are 1) loaded GTs or GTPs and 2) I've lived and went to school with these people for the past 3-4 months. I've never known someone to rent a car for 3-4 months.

A) I quoted Detnews.com, not an agenda driven mag

B) your observations, while quaint and entertaining, do not address national sales figures, at all.

C) I work for neither the mass media, nor a GM competitor. Please reread my posts for clues...

D) Telling the truth, without regard for your sensibilities, is different than skewing facts or telling anecdotes about the cars I see when I drive to work...so let's leave it at that.

E) If you only knew who paid my salary, you'd take my words alot more seriously (here's a hint, take a glance at my recent Caddy rants.

F) FOG- free advice- take a rhetoric class or a valium. The world will continue spinning and the sun will rise if GM fails. I have never rooted for that to happen and I never will---the problem with many on this site is that they are much like the 'experts' at the Tubes, only looking into a mirror for input instead of glancing out the window....

[evok]

I did not see anything sensitive in enzl post. Just pointing out an article with information stating the obvious. I pointed the same thing out in an earlier posting on this thread.

[AM6_Cutlass]

Nope... G6's are like Honda's here in Brookville; a rarity. No where near the success the Grand Am had around here. I still say the name change has alot to do with it... as well as the G6's obvious problems. I mean... it's bland. Brookvillians love exciting designs.

I'm starting to see more G6's around Pittsburgh, but still nothing like the Grand Am was. Ever since I was in High School, GAs were the car most young people I knew had or wanted. The G6 seems to mostly have older/middle aged drivers. Maybe because it is bland and semi-dopey looking, and has none of the sportiness or agressiveness of the Grand Am. Also, the coupes are very rare sights, unlike the Grand Am which seemed to be running closer to 40 coupes/60 sedans from personal observation. The name may be partially to blame since the GA had alot of positive recognition in these parts, but the Cobalt hasn't suffered by not bieng called Cavalier anymore.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A) I quoted Detnews.com, not an agenda driven mag

Your point being??? I was talking about YOUR agenda.

B) your observations, while quaint and entertaining, do not address national sales figures, at all.

FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW: I never said they did and in fact I STATED that they didn't

C) I work for neither the mass media, nor a GM competitor. Please reread my posts for clues...

I'm pretty sure I know who pays your salary and that would qualify you as an insider by nature, albeit not the sort of insider that we're accustomed to here.

D) Telling the truth, without regard for your sensibilities, is different than skewing facts or telling anecdotes about the cars I see when I drive to work...so let's leave it at that.

Fair enough.

F) FOG- free advice- take a rhetoric class or a valium.

LOL... I love that line and I'll humor you... "FOG take a valium." The FUNNY THING is this; Valium is NOT used to treat anger. It is USED to treat anxiety, thus rendering it USELESS to me. As for the rhetoric, well I think I've got that down just fine.

The world will continue spinning and the sun will rise if GM fails. I have never rooted for that to happen and I never will

NOT for some of us.... GM failing will be detremental to me but also more importantly the THOUSANDS that depend on the company for their wellbeing (Something that greedy americans tend not to think about anymore for some reason)

BTW, I didn't mean to pick a fight or sound overly abrasive (I know; something I'm not very good at) I was just trying to defend my thread.

[evok]

Your point being??? I was talking about YOUR agenda.

FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW: I never said they did and in fact I STATED that they didn't

I'm pretty sure I know who pays your salary and that would qualify you as an insider by nature, albeit not the sort of insider that we're accustomed to here.

Though we might disagree on a some points or disagree because of the ambiguity at times because of the nature of posts, enzl is by far one of the balanced posters on CG. enzl is one of the few posters I actually take my time and go out of my way to read for that reason. He has common sense.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Though we might disagree on a some points or disagree because of the ambiguity at times because of the nature of posts, enzl is by far one of the balanced posters on CG.  enzl is one of the few posters I actually take my time and go out of my way to read for that reason.  He has common sense.

I would tend to agree on a grand scale...

I just don't agree with some of his comments from the past few days and I'm voicing why (However "dramatic" or "grandiose" that might be)

It's nothing personal, on my part anyway.

[enzl]

It's nothing personal, on my part anyway.

Mine either. I enjoy the banter. I love cars, and losing GM, aside from the national and personal tragedy it would be, is not what I want. I'm a big fan of the business term 'agent of change'. It's something each co. needs, regardless of success, because it keeps everyone thinking. I'm very upset that GM has followed its current trajectory, and I've voiced it (to my detriment) to GM insiders and business press. (I almost didn't have a job as a result)

I've offered myself as a resource and I stand by that offer. We may disagree (alot), but I think, in the end, we all want the same thing...(great product we're proud to buy, own, sell, etc.)

[97regalGS]

Though we might disagree on a some points or disagree because of the ambiguity at times because of the nature of posts, enzl is by far one of the balanced posters on CG.  enzl is one of the few posters I actually take my time and go out of my way to read for that reason.  He has common sense.

common sense on C&G is 'occasionally' lacking.

emotion, however, is in abundance!

[evok]

common sense on C&G is 'occasionally' lacking.

emotion, however, is in abundance!

It comes down to this, when Hyundai sells 3000+ more Sonatas in Feb., than GM sells G6s, that should tell the company something.

Edited March 30, 2006 by evok

[enzl]

It comes down to this, when Hyundai sells 3000+ more Sonatas than GM sells G6s, that should tell the company something.

I hate to even say it, but with numbers like that, you wonder how close to the truth Lutz was when he referred to brands as damaged...perhaps Pontiac, as a nameplate, will be better served with a more sharply focused smaller line-up, because the status quo isn't pretty....

[97regalGS]

It comes down to this, when Hyundai sells 3000+  more Sonatas in Feb., than GM sells G6s, that should tell the company something.

go read the comments on the Azera thread for the 'common sense' and 'emotion' that exists here sometimes.

[97regalGS]

I hate to even say it, but with numbers like that, you wonder how close to the truth Lutz was when he referred to brands as damaged...perhaps Pontiac, as a nameplate, will be better served with a more sharply focused smaller line-up, because the status quo isn't pretty....

whether by design or hapanstance, GM is confusing the market with their release and cancellation of vehicles for Pontiac.

Bonneville - GXP offered with NS. then cancelled?

GTO - brilliant performance car with vanilla styling, ruined in the market by the name. (too much baggage)

Pontiac continues to talk about going after BMW. First vehicle off the line after that comment is the Montana SV6??

G6 comes to market with new name, No 4cyl, no coupe, convert delayed.

Solstice - brilliant. but where is the trunk space?

Torrent - rebadge after saying no more rebadges

G5 - rebadge after no more rebadges