Pontiac GT-37

[A Horse With No Name]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgtOAG9wAOo&feature=grec_index

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTsxS7l_DvY&feature=related

And some more pure Pontiac Porn....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzlneG5tN_w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDuHVSF352I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHvYzbrQPUk&feature=related

Since we know Balthazar loves low riders and donks, I included this.... Edited November 14, 2010 by 66Stang

[A Horse With No Name]

Saved the best for last, love the color on this poncho....

[balthazar]

>>"Since we know Balthazar loves low riders and donks...."<<

How'd you like a knuckle sandwich ?

GPs are about the ultimate package in cars, beautiful expressive styling & detailing, luxury, sport & performance. '62-72 and not a clinker among them.

[A Horse With No Name]

See...trash talking like a kid from the hood already....you are aware that I'm really tired of donks, right?

Low riders not so much, I've seen some really cool ones built from the 78-87 GM midsize cars....

And while I have a real love for Grand Prix, the 67 Ragtop kind of is my fav. in some ways...you know of my love of convertibles, it's a one year only car, and it has a nice, flowing design IMHO>

[balthazar]

WRT lowriders : IMO, tho they look ridiculous at ride height on 13" rims... there is a certain intrique to be able to alter the stance & ride height at will, and a teense bit more in the ability to make a car move in a manner others can't. The 1-wheel-in-the-air thing & the bouncing thing; no, but to be able to drop the car very low is... intriquing.

'67 GP is slick, but I generally take issue WRT converts- I hate to lose the stylistic contribution of the knife-edged greenhouse and the concave backlight for a wrinkled canvas 'roof' that looks the same as 100s of other (converts). I would take a hardtop first.

Surprisingly, I don't really see many donks around here. No- I don;t like the look, either. Older, (real) full-size cars shouldn't wear wheels over 20", and intermediates ('60-80s) shouldn't wear over 18"s.

[A Horse With No Name]

Putting the top up ever is pretty much against my religion...my 15 year old daughter and I drove across Kentucky in the Miata during a heavy rain storm with the top down...at about 72 miles per hour, rain went right over the top of the car, and we stayed dry.

I'm still cruising around with the top down, and it's November in Ohio.

IMHO convertible tops perform the valuable function of keeping the neighbors cat out of your car while it's parked out front, or in the garage....

But yes, I could see how with a good looking 1960's roof line you would prefer a hardtop.

[balthazar]

Understood WRT top up/top down.

I've only ridden in 2 converts (both '68s). I loved both experiences... but I think the restorer in me shies aways from yet another complex system & premature source of deterioration.

A Miata is so small that there's not as much stylistic contribution going on there, and then there's the 'cuteness' factor in anything so small. On a '67 GP, the roof alone is the size of a Miata.

For EX- the gorgeous Charger in your sig: no WAY would I give up that flying buttress roofline for a wrinkled fabric top, even if it was down 95% of the time.

Conceptually, the ideal would be a retractable hardtop.

[hyperv6]

The ultimate Temmpest was the Kanfel Pontiac prepared Magnum 400 cars. They took a limited run of 50 of these cars.

Here is a little story on the Magnum 400

In the fall of 1969 as the 1970 Pontiac models were introduced, Bill Knsfel decided to introduce his own inexpensive, lightweight performance car. He was aware of the success of the Plymouth "Roadrunner", so he felt that by ordering the right combinations of options, he could market a successful performance car. He named it "Magnum 400" and sold about 50 that year. It started out as a Tempest coupe ordered with the 400 4BBL engine, Rally II wheels, the 1969 Judge stripe, and other choices of options to suit the customer's taste, such as 4 speed or turbohydramatic transmission, Safe-T-Track differential, and performance rear end ratios.

A top Pontiac show car builder here in town may a clone of one of these cars as none of the original 50 are still around.

There is one clone car still around a local Pontiac collector put together here.

I also found out the early 60's GP convertible the dealer built is still around. In is now in AZ less the engine. Knafel wanted the 63 XP400 and Delorean would not sell it. SO Bill had one built close to the original. It even had a Supercharger set up by Mickey Thompson. We thought the car was lost but it is still around.

Edited November 19, 2010 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

GM wouldn't sell the '63 X-400 because Styling turned it into the '64 X-400. A real shame IMO because the '63 was easily one of the most red frickin' hot cars ever built (even if it was yellow).

The '64 X-400 in AZ has been "found" since at least 1985, and has been 'undergoing restoration' ever since.

Unfortunately, that car was retro-fitted with a production '64 GP nose, instead of the '66-esque '64 X-400 nose.

hyper- trying to recall the Judge take-off, the "Jury" cars... what they consisted of & how many were built (if known). Don't make me page thru 20 years of Smoke Signals to find it, please....

[hyperv6]

GM wouldn't sell the '63 X-400 because Styling turned it into the '64 X-400. A real shame IMO because the '63 was easily one of the most red frickin' hot cars ever built (even if it was yellow).

The '64 X-400 in AZ has been "found" since at least 1985, and has been 'undergoing restoration' ever since.

Unfortunately, that car was retro-fitted with a production '64 GP nose, instead of the '66-esque '64 X-400 nose.

hyper- trying to recall the Judge take-off, the "Jury" cars... what they consisted of & how many were built (if known). Don't make me page thru 20 years of Smoke Signals to find it, please....

"The Jury" was an option package on a LeMans that was dreamed up by Stampede Pontiac Buick in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. They sold 26 of these cars with the idea that they could offer a lower-buck car that had the performance of a Judge without being a Judge. That's where the "Jury" name came from. All where Palladium Silver with a blue interior. The each featured a fireball "The JURY" decal on a black bumblebee stripe across the rear quarter panel with a 69' Judge spoiler.

It was pretty much the same idea as the Magnum 400. Never saw one in person but I had heard of them.

I know Pontiac never would have sold the car looking back. But Bill Knafel was the kind of guy with money and connections who would try to buy a car and often would get what he wanted. Keep in mind he was running a multi car race team and often flew crews or drivers to the races with the team airplane the dealer owned. He was big bucks back then.

Once he found he could not buy it they did a respectable copy. While not exact it was a very special car. They hung and converted Catalina convertible 1/4's and made other needed changes.

Arlen Vanke built the engine and Micky Thompson supplied the supercharger. My buddies dad drove the car back in the day. He has owned some fast street cars over the years and said this was one of the fastest Pontiac non race cars he ever drove.

A lot of the Pontiac people in this area are wondering what happend and where is the engine. We are in a strong Pontiac area and many things have turned up here in garages. We hope someday it might get pulled out and found.

[A Horse With No Name]

Another Pontiac I have a bizzare fetish for (as long as we are talking relatively uncommon, low production Pntiacs...) is the 1968 Pontiac GTO with the special "low performance" 400 2v motor....think it was sold as an "Economy"...gto or such.

I've seen a couple cars, almost bought one once but the car I was looking at had structural damage.

[hyperv6]

Another Pontiac I have a bizzare fetish for (as long as we are talking relatively uncommon, low production Pntiacs...) is the 1968 Pontiac GTO with the special "low performance" 400 2v motor....think it was sold as an "Economy"...gto or such.

I've seen a couple cars, almost bought one once but the car I was looking at had structural damage.

I have seen some of these GTO's. While not crazy rare one shows up once in a while. I wonder how many are still around just having been upgraded to a 4V.

I had one buddy with a 67 GTO 400 2v with the bench seat and colum shift. 2967 made.

One odd Bird was a the 1968 400 3sp I put a clutch in for a guy. The car was all original and when I pulled the tranny it was a Ford 3 sp. It even said FOMOCO on the side. It had the 5th bolt on top and the bell housing was duel drilled. I would have thought someone had just put it in if it had not been for the factory Hurst 3sp shifter in the car.

I had been told there was a plant fire and GM had purchased 3sp from Ford to keep production moving. I have been told this tranny found it's way into some Chevys and Olds.

I also ran across back in high school a old woman with a 68 Tempest 4 door with a OHC 6 in it. the car was as base as you could get. I have seldom seen one of these engines in a later car let alone a sedan. We also had a couple of the OHC 6 4V engine around. We kept them for a while as we hated to scrap them with the rusted out parts cars.

We even found a RA III engine in a old parts car. Those were the days.

You want rare how about a Ram Air V GTO?

Here is Bill Knafel with the Golden Sabre. I am not sure if the car survived but it was a dealer package they would build and sell if you had the money. Now those were really the days.

Edited November 20, 2010 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

I looked at a '68 'economy 400' GTO coupe once. Interesting thing was, it had the hole for the optional hood tach, too.

REALLY weird idea (2bbl GTO), IMO.

[A Horse With No Name]

I looked at a '68 'economy 400' GTO coupe once. Interesting thing was, it had the hole for the optional hood tach, too.

REALLY weird idea (2bbl GTO), IMO.

Just strange enough a guy like me might want to own one...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Just strange enough a guy like me might want to own one...

Strange, it's very much like my 1969 Pontiac Custom-S, what's strange about that?

[balthazar]

A 350 is only 7/8ths of a 400.

I'm certainly not about downgrades in the power department. Talk to me about upgrades.

[hyperv6]

I looked at a '68 'economy 400' GTO coupe once. Interesting thing was, it had the hole for the optional hood tach, too.

REALLY weird idea (2bbl GTO), IMO.

I remember the first one I saw in High School. I thought someone put a 350 in the car with the original 2V.

It is odd but I would rather have a odd that would add to the value vs hurt the vlaue. Say like the red fender liners. We had a set of them a good while back. Have you seen the price on a clean set today. $$$$$$$

[balthazar]

Rarity does not mandate value in every situation. 2bbl low-comp '68 Goat is not going to out-value the otherwise exact same 4bbl hi-comp.

[A Horse With No Name]

Rarity does not mandate value in every situation. 2bbl low-comp '68 Goat is not going to out-value the otherwise exact same 4bbl hi-comp.

True...and Pontiac could have built a plane Jane 1968 one of one green wagon with a red interior....that certainly won't bring big bucks at a collector auction...

[balthazar]

^ Well, that one might....

[hyperv6]

True...and Pontiac could have built a plane Jane 1968 one of one green wagon with a red interior....that certainly won't bring big bucks at a collector auction...

If it had a 400 or 428 engine and 4 speed it would.

Give me any odd plain Pontiac and if it had one real performance option on it there is someone out there that would pay good money for it.

[A Horse With No Name]

If it had a 400 or 428 engine and 4 speed it would.

Give me any odd plain Pontiac and if it had one real performance option on it there is someone out there that would pay good money for it.

...and it would be one hell of a cool car...

I miss seeing good old Pontiacs like these on the rods every day....

[gm4life]

Strange, it's very much like my 1969 Pontiac Custom-S, what's strange about that?

Your sig... It tells me something good is about to happen... Whatever good that might be I can't wait to see it.

[hyperv6]

...and it would be one hell of a cool car...

I miss seeing good old Pontiacs like these on the rods every day....

That is one of the good things of the 60's I do miss. Back then you could get just about anything you wanted built if you had someone who could push the paperwork.

[A Horse With No Name]

And a lot of stuff that was just plain odd.

I have a friend named Alan who ordered a Camaro new in 1969...he got the RS, the close ration for speed, and the posi rear end...but chickened out on the big motor at the last minute.

So it came from GM as a close ration four speed equipped posi car with a 307...it was red..nice looking car...but slow....and a one of one car, methinks....

Alan later became blind and played Chess in blind chess tournaments....he was damn good at it...

[balthazar]

There was at least 1 factory-built '64 Grand Prix convertible (still exists), even the data plate was stamped 2967 (29: Series 29 GP, 67: convertible).

[hyperv6]

The real thing I love about going to Norwalk to the Pontiac Nationals every year are the odd cars that show up. You see the many weird and rare things come about there.

Two years ago was a Aluminum GTO frame. It was a legit GM frame and the guy trailered it there for sale. I can't remember the price but it was as much or more than a complete restored GTO could be purchaced for.

I had never heard of it before but Don Keefe from POCI said he thought it was real.

It was said by Wangers the frame was made for a Pontiac supported race car. I can't remember much more about it.

[daves87rs]

I need to wipe the drool of my chin....

[A Horse With No Name]

There was at least 1 factory-built '64 Grand Prix convertible (still exists), even the data plate was stamped 2967 (29: Series 29 GP, 67: convertible).

As the old saying goes

The real thing I love about going to Norwalk to the Pontiac Nationals every year are the odd cars that show up. You see the many weird and rare things come about there.

Two years ago was a Aluminum GTO frame. It was a legit GM frame and the guy trailered it there for sale. I can't remember the price but it was as much or more than a complete restored GTO could be purchaced for.

I had never heard of it before but Don Keefe from POCI said he thought it was real.

It was said by Wangers the frame was made for a Pontiac supported race car. I can't remember much more about it.

Cadillac actually built a set of Aluminium race cars right about 1964 or so...full aluminium bodies, looked like a production car IIRC.

LONG time since I've read anything about them...

[A Horse With No Name]

And a quick Google hit for Cadillac aluminium bodied race car turned up this little gem...not regular production, off topic, but still cool!

http://californiaclassix.com/archive/70_Tice_c155.html

[6t5frlane]

They also made a economy highway 442 with a 2bbl

[SAmadei]

They also made a economy highway 442 with a 2bbl

Sounds more like a 242, than a 442. ;-)

[balthazar]

66Stang ~ >>"As the old saying goes..."<<

I have a photocopy of a B&W pic, but currently no scanner capabilities. Only thing it would show is a '64 convertible with Grand Prix trim/grilles. Can't recall (without diggin it out) if it had the GP windshield or not.

>>"Cadillac actually built a set of Aluminium race cars right about 1964 or so...full aluminium bodies, looked like a production car IIRC. LONG time since I've read anything about them..."<<

Production aluminum-bodied, circa '64 Coupe deVilles ????

I don't think so; that would be news to the Cadillac enthusiast at large. Never heard this before, and frankly it just doesn't fit. GM bowed out of racing in Jan '63, too. Something's fishy....

[A Horse With No Name]

66Stang ~ >>"As the old saying goes..."<<

I have a photocopy of a B&W pic, but currently no scanner capabilities. Only thing it would show is a '64 convertible with Grand Prix trim/grilles. Can't recall (without diggin it out) if it had the GP windshield or not.

>>"Cadillac actually built a set of Aluminium race cars right about 1964 or so...full aluminium bodies, looked like a production car IIRC. LONG time since I've read anything about them..."<<

Production aluminum-bodied, circa '64 Coupe deVilles ????

I don't think so; that would be news to the Cadillac enthusiast at large. Never heard this before, and frankly it just doesn't fit. GM bowed out of racing in Jan '63, too. Something's fishy....

Maybe it wasn't 64...but I actually remember reading about it in Hot Rod back in the later 1970's....

[Robert Hall]

>>"Cadillac actually built a set of Aluminium race cars right about 1964 or so...full aluminium bodies, looked like a production car IIRC. LONG time since I've read anything about them..."<<

Production aluminum-bodied, circa '64 Coupe deVilles ????

I don't think so; that would be news to the Cadillac enthusiast at large. Never heard this before, and frankly it just doesn't fit. GM bowed out of racing in Jan '63, too. Something's fishy....

Curious...the only racing context I recall reading of older Cadillacs in was the Carrera Panamerica and Le Mans in the early '50s.

[Robert Hall]

Speaking of Pontiacs, one model that I've only seen once in person is a '67 2+2..great looking big car. Saw a black one in Ohio at a show maybe 20 years ago.

I've also seen a sharp gold '64 Parisienne convertible in Denver a few times.

[balthazar]

Me too: LeMans for '50 or '51, and the PanAm in '54 are the only factory-sponsored racing that springs to mind.

There were non-factory cars now & again of course: Cannonball Run for '71 & '72 (Cadillac placed 2nd the one year).

As much as I have read on Cadillac over the years.... the premise is very strange, but the AL-body thing puts it over the top.

I'd go out on a limb and say the 'AL-production body' claim is incorrect... but I would LOVE to be proved wrong here.

[hyperv6]

Me too: LeMans for '50 or '51, and the PanAm in '54 are the only factory-sponsored racing that springs to mind.

There were non-factory cars now & again of course: Cannonball Run for '71 & '72 (Cadillac placed 2nd the one year).

As much as I have read on Cadillac over the years.... the premise is very strange, but the AL-body thing puts it over the top.

I'd go out on a limb and say the 'AL-production body' claim is incorrect... but I would LOVE to be proved wrong here.

Yes Cadillac only did the Pan Am and The Lemans stock coup and the Le Monster built on another coupe frame.

Now there were some rebodied Cadillacs from Italy that could have been aluminum. They were just custome bodied show cars or street cars done buy the custom houses overthere.

I did not ever know of the GTO Aluminum frames till I saw the one. Even then I had to hear it from Don that it was a back door part from GM.

One year there was even a 64 GTO with body panels that were thinner than the stock panels. I guess Delorean had this car made for a racer and they used thinner steel and left out other things in the car from the factory to make it lighter.

One neat car last year at the Norlwalk show was a 64 GTO that was still owned by the original owner. He felt it was not fast enough so he installed a Ram Air V crate engine in it. HE still has the original engine at home. The car was mostly original and very clean. I saw they did a photo shoot for the car and it should be in High Performance Pontiac.

[balthazar]

There is a still-existing black '65 GTO hardtop that the owner claims was a pre-production pilot model, that the factory stamped panels initially in a thinner gauge to check dies & assembly. That car is the first I've heard of such a thing being done, but I'll buy it.

[hyperv6]

There is a still-existing black '65 GTO hardtop that the owner claims was a pre-production pilot model, that the factory stamped panels initially in a thinner gauge to check dies & assembly. That car is the first I've heard of such a thing being done, but I'll buy it.

Sorry you are that was a 65 GTO not a 64 It had been a while since I had seen this one. Jim Mattison is convinced it was real and a few other guys from Pontiac say it is real. Documentation hard to come by for this one and it took a while to confirm they did do this kind of stuff back in the day.

There was a story in HPP on this one about 2 years or so back.

[hyperv6]

I just got a call the other night from a Buddy who is a big time Fiero Historian.

He has a great collection including one of the 3 original Indy Pace cars that later was rebodied in the IMSA panels as a PPG Indy car.

PPG also had a team of 6 Turbocharged V6 Fiero's They were used as a all female driving team that would do demo runs before some of the PPG indy races. The cars were fastbacks before GM released theirs and I thought they looked better than the GT that later came. The cars could do 165 MPH and one had more power and could top 180 MPH.

Well I found the car a whole back donated to a high school shop program. I let him know about it and he has tried to buy for the last 8 years. In the mean time he bought the one GM sold a the BJ auction and also another from someone who was able to locate it. He just got a call from the school that if he came to pick it up he could have it.

The car is said to be complete but not running. But for free any GM/PPG show car would be a great deal. Since he has two others he should be able to restore it properly.

The Red car is the one he just bought. It is Black now and will need some work but for free it was a very good deal. This photo is from the year it paced the Indy race at Cleveland.

These are his other cars. The yellow and blue cars are part of the PPG team. The bronze and white car is now a PPG pace car but originally was the third white pace car from Indy. It still has the SD 4 cylinder in the car. It was rebodied with the panels for the IMSA Huffacker car. This was easy to do with the Fiero and the stock cars could use the same panels. All of these cars took little resto. The Blue car was in GM's collection and was perfect. The Indy # 3 needed nothing as it was in the Museum of Industry in Chicago for years in a glass booth. The yellow car just needed some paint work but was not repainted.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

There are some neat cars out there if you look around. The only negitive is none of these can be street driven. None of them have Vins.

Edited November 26, 2010 by hyperv6

[A Horse With No Name]

That's totally cool..usually cars without vins are destroyed by the MFGR...glad these survived....!

[ocnblu]

I agree with hyper, those fastbacks look better than the production version we got. They look great!

[hyperv6]

Here is the 1.8 Turbo Indy Pace car the speedway has hidden in its storage area. This car was unknown to the public till just a few years ago. It shocked many in the Fiero community that not only that they built it but it was still around.

The engine had enough power but it just would not hold together. GM went to the SD4 engine in the three track cars that were built as it was reliable enough for IMSA racing at higher power.

GM rebuilt this one and sent it back to the speedway where it has set in the storage barn. The engineers log book notes the details of testing and is a great find. Fred found it under the seat on the car.

This car is fully there and ready to run with X numbers still in place.

This is another car that proves you never know what GM car you may find and were. Fred is close with many GM people in Detroit and they had even forgot about this car till he brought it up.

If you can make connections at the speedway see if they can get you in to visit this site. The cars that are sitting around will shock you. Under every cover is a large bit of history or one off car. They really need a way to display these cars more often.

Note the 1966 mec in the first photo. It is the 66 Pace car. The car under the cover next to the Fiero is the 1988 Cutlass Pace car. Behind it was the 1975 Buick Turbo. On the other side of the Olds is the real Indy Fiero primary car still with the ABC tv camera hole in the tail light. This place is just amazing.

Edited November 27, 2010 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

"1966 mec" = '66 Merc (Comet Cyclone GT convert pace car)

[A Horse With No Name]

"1966 mec" = '66 Merc (Comet Cyclone GT convert pace car)

THAT is the car that got away from me...

I had a guy offer to trade me even up...a red, 390-4 speed 66 cyclone GT ragtop, white interior, pace car clone, for my 66 Mustang fastback about ten years ago.

THAT was a cool car...

...and I've always thought the 75 Buick turbo was a cool pace car...

I remember seeing a clone of that one at a car show a few years ago.