Cadillac is moving down market...

[daves87rs]

HELOC rates are so low because no one can meet the qualifications for them anymore.

GM just surpassed Toyota in quarterly profit on a revenue of $34.1 billion, ...... you think GM's not going to be gearing up for a fight with that?

This.

[balthazar]

>>"I wonder if Hyundai will start to include their high end bidet technology in their cars...... say if I'm driving along and I need a bit of a freshening "down there""<<

[smk4565]

Still just a Hyundai, though.

Well he wanted a large, rear drive V8 car that is quiet, the Genesis fits that bill. Most people can't afford a V8 German car or Jaguar, and the Charger/300C (which are poorly made) are the only American options left, the Genesis is a nice alternative.

I've driven the Genesis and CTS, the feature list is similar, the Genesis has a better stereo and is roomier and more quiet. And 429 hp and 18/26 mpg vs 304 hp and 18/27 mpg, is a mismatch. The Genesis just gives you a lot for the money, it isn't as good as a German sedan, but the number of V8 rear drivers that are affordable are diminishing fast.

Edited November 15, 2010 by smk4565

[hyperv6]

If Cadillac put out a full line of cars that were all $60,000 and higher they would not last too long.

You can get people to take a chance on a $40,000 much easier than a $80,000+ car. Cadillac needs to earn it inage back in all areas as a world class car. If they can't build the best in class ATS and CTS no one will be fooled into paying six figures for a Flagship.

For now they need to sell cars and make money as they improve the line. I expect the ATS to show more of the gains Cadillac will make than any other car. THe CTS and SRX were done before the Chapter 11 and while much better still did not get all they can now put into them.

The XTC is just going to be a different car all together with the hyprid design. It also will throw a bone to the DTS owners that are still not too old to drive.

Like the new SRX or not it has improved the sales and market share of Cadillac. People like it and many are not GM fan boys. Now that you have them in the car make the next one even better. It is near class leading for it's group and with a few more tweeks and for a few more dollars they can win this one out right with the best in class.

Also Image is another important part of this. People who buy cars like this do so as much for how it makes them look as anything else. Marketing will also be a big part of the future.

Edited November 15, 2010 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

The problem or challenge with luxury cars though, is image matters a lot. Flagships and supercars build image. That is why Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the Gullwing or McLaren SLR, and the V12 7-series and S-class are important. They make the brand aspirational, and lift the image of it.

Infiniti has with the G37 and M37/56 what Cadillac seems to be aiming for with the ATS and CTS. Infiniti also has no flagship or supercar, and look at how their brand image lags seriously behind the Germans. The G37 and M56 are very competitive cars, but the 3-series and E-class are the sales champs, because brand image and badge do matter. So I think Cadillac making the ATS and CTS with nothing above them isn't enough to really go after the Germans, that is a way to go after Infiniti.

The problem is, Cadillac can't afford to spend $1 billion on making a mid-engine V12 supercar so they can sell 800 of them a year. They can't afford $2 billion for an S-class competitor that will sell 5,000 units a year. It is hard to get image without cars like that, but at the same time it makes zero financial sense for Cadillac to build a car like that.

[Drew Dowdell]

yet.

Some of you have the attention span of a fruit fly.

[z28luvr01]

The problem or challenge with luxury cars though, is image matters a lot. Flagships and supercars build image. That is why Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the Gullwing or McLaren SLR, and the V12 7-series and S-class are important. They make the brand aspirational, and lift the image of it.

The exception, of course, is Hyundai, which became the best luxury brand in the space-time continuum after selling the Genesis sedan for two model years and the Equus since this summer.

I think we ought to wait to see how the ATS turns out before we crucify Cadillac. We've only seen part of the front fascia and left fender.

[Sal Collaziano]

^ "Concern" is just not the way it read, and it's not the way it reads on other boards, either... but maybe that's just me.

mercedes has a slow-selling s-class you might like, it's almost 'full-size", starts at circa $90K and will cost you more in depreciation than just about any car you can buy (specifically- the S65 would cost you $150K in 3 years- S550 must be on a similar sliding scale).

I also firmly believe the 'upgrade path' theory WRT a brand's lineup is urban myth. Is the 3-series ABA 30, the 5-series 50 and the 7-series 70 ?? I doubt it.

Which S-Class is "almost" full-size? If the best full-size car available at Cadillac is a FWD V6 that GM states is "near" full-size, then they're not giving me a single option. That's a shame.

Still just a Hyundai, though.

That statement doesn't mean anything anymore. If a Hyundai is "just a Hyundai" and they're building better luxury cars than Cadillac (minus the brand name), than what does that make Cadillac?

Telling Molly McMansion her new SRX is a FAIL because you don't approve of the drivetrain layout (something she'll have no idea what you are talking about since hers is AWD anyway) is a way of showing concern for Cadillac?

The SRX is selling well with new customers that over 50% came from another brand.....

like it for what it is... a profit center for Cadillac.

I don't tell Molly McMansion anything. I'm happy that Cadillac is making sales. Hopefully one day they'll have an option for people like me. It would be nice if they had something now.

I've read elsewhere Hyundai is working on a 10-speed automatic for MY 2016.

Hyundai is working on a ten speed dual clutch transmission...

Anyway, I'm out of the country with limited internet access. I'll reply to messages as I can...

[FAPTurbo]

CADILLAC NEEDS TO SPEND ELEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS ON AN FLAGSHIP TO COMPETE WITH GERMANY!

OH &#036;h&#33;!

BUT CADILLAC HAS NO MONEY!

OH &#036;h&#33;!

THE SRX IS MAKING GM TONS OF MONEY THAT WILL LET THEM MAKE COOL &#036;h&#33;!

BUT OH &#036;h&#33;!!

THE SRX IS FRONT WHEEL DRIVE SO IT IS INFERIOR!

OH &#036;h&#33;!

GM MIGHT AS WELL JUST COMPETE WITH LINCOLN SINCE THE GERMANS NEVER MAKE FWD VEHICLES AND CROSSOVERS!

OH &#036;h&#33;!

THAT MEANS GM SHOULD MAKE A RWD MODEL THAT WON'T SELL! THAT WILL TOTALLY MAKE THEM COMPETITIVE IN THE MARKET!

OH &#036;h&#33;!

BUT THAT WOULD MEAN GM WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SPEND ELEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS ON A S-CLASS COMPETITOR!

[Robert Hall]

The S-class is still arguably the best-of-breed and the standard bearer in the premium full-size lux niche, though.

The Audi A8, Lexus LS, BMW 7-series, and Jag XJ are all newer, but the Jag has some seriously ugly design elements inside and out, IMO.

Whether or not eventually Cadillac plays in this space or is content to compete w/ Lincoln is all up to GM.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

The problem or challenge with luxury cars though, is image matters a lot. Flagships and supercars build image. That is why Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the Gullwing or McLaren SLR, and the V12 7-series and S-class are important. They make the brand aspirational, and lift the image of it.

Infiniti has with the G37 and M37/56 what Cadillac seems to be aiming for with the ATS and CTS. Infiniti also has no flagship or supercar, and look at how their brand image lags seriously behind the Germans. The G37 and M56 are very competitive cars, but the 3-series and E-class are the sales champs, because brand image and badge do matter. So I think Cadillac making the ATS and CTS with nothing above them isn't enough to really go after the Germans, that is a way to go after Infiniti.

The problem is, Cadillac can't afford to spend $1 billion on making a mid-engine V12 supercar so they can sell 800 of them a year. They can't afford $2 billion for an S-class competitor that will sell 5,000 units a year. It is hard to get image without cars like that, but at the same time it makes zero financial sense for Cadillac to build a car like that.

The latest Motor Trend hints at a Bently Coupe challanger from Cadillac.

That would be nice and a good image builder. But it all could be wasted if the ATS is not best in class. No matter how good the best car is the poorest car will always bring down the image of the entire line.

[Lamar]

I've always said it's easier to build a brand from the top down versus the bottom up... and, in Caddy's case, from the middle out.

Would have preferred that Caddy's flagship car were here first and THEN the others, but what's done is done.

All that needs to be hoped for by everyone here is that Cadillac produce a solid offering worth buying on its own merits instead of always looking at it with roundel-colored glasses.

[smk4565]

The S-class is still arguably the best-of-breed and the standard bearer in the premium full-size lux niche, though.

Arguably??? It is the best of the breed. S-class sold 6,000 units last month world wide, I don't think any Cadillac model achieved that. In 2007, they sold 91,000 S-class sedans worldwide, that is a bigger number than what the CTS sold. It is a hard car to go after, because most flagships are niche volume cars, the S-class has volume, so they can pour money into it every 6 years.

[Robert Hall]

Arguably??? It is the best of the breed. S-class sold 6,000 units last month world wide, I don't think any Cadillac model achieved that. In 2007, they sold 91,000 S-class sedans worldwide, that is a bigger number than what the CTS sold. It is a hard car to go after, because most flagships are niche volume cars, the S-class has volume, so they can pour money into it every 6 years.

I put 'arguably' as some could argue the new A8 or 7 series are more advanced. I still prefer the S-class..and it's the only one with a hood ornament, which is a little luxury detail I like...

[smk4565]

I put 'arguably' as some could argue the new A8 or 7 series are more advanced. I still prefer the S-class..and it's the only one with a hood ornament, which is a little luxury detail I like...

The 7-series is a legit contender, the A8 is underpowered, weak, and bland. My personal favorite is the XJ, I like how it looks, I like that is light weight, and it is an alternative to the Germans. But the S-class is still the gold standard and most prestigious, and best selling of the group.

[Sal Collaziano]

It sounds like you're satisfied with Cadillac being a value brand. All the SRX needed was a redesign. It didn't need to go FWD and V6. It's inferior to the first generation SRX for both those reasons. It sells more because it's cheaper and looks better. All it needed to do was look better and it could have kept it's prestigious status/price bring RWD with a powerful drivetrain. The XTS is going to be a similar situation. A few more horsepower but less torque - in the end, it'll likely feel less powerful - especially on the highway. It'll also likely weigh more with the added technology it has over the outgoing DTS. I hope the ATS is a hit. That car could really change things for Cadillac. However, I'm a little disappointed that there's going to be no 335i competitor. The ATS will compete with the 328i - which is fine - but they're missing an important piece of the puzzle without competing with the 335i. Same goes for the CTS. It's missing a 550i and 535i competitor. The V-Series will surely be fine for both cars - but they sell far and few between...

CADILLAC NEEDS TO SPEND ELEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS ON AN FLAGSHIP TO COMPETE WITH GERMANY!

OH $h!!

BUT CADILLAC HAS NO MONEY!

OH $h!!

THE SRX IS MAKING GM TONS OF MONEY THAT WILL LET THEM MAKE COOL $h!!

BUT OH $h!!!

THE SRX IS FRONT WHEEL DRIVE SO IT IS INFERIOR!

OH $h!!

GM MIGHT AS WELL JUST COMPETE WITH LINCOLN SINCE THE GERMANS NEVER MAKE FWD VEHICLES AND CROSSOVERS!

OH $h!!

THAT MEANS GM SHOULD MAKE A RWD MODEL THAT WON'T SELL! THAT WILL TOTALLY MAKE THEM COMPETITIVE IN THE MARKET!

OH $h!!

BUT THAT WOULD MEAN GM WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SPEND ELEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS ON A S-CLASS COMPETITOR!

Edited November 16, 2010 by Sal Collaziano

[Robert Hall]

The 7-series is a legit contender, the A8 is underpowered, weak, and bland. My personal favorite is the XJ, I like how it looks, I like that is light weight, and it is an alternative to the Germans. But the S-class is still the gold standard and most prestigious, and best selling of the group.

I don't like some of the details of the Jag like the strange rear end (the odd taillights and c-pillar trim) and the cheesy dash design (looks out of place in a luxury car with the tacked-on gauge pod and tacked-on bulgy center vents)...I find the new A8 dash much nicer, w/ more wood and better integration of vents, etc.

[Z-06]

While Sal makes some (angry) discussion points WRT Cadillac, here's my issue with just about ANY heavy-handed coal-raking of Cadillac : the always-shifting grounds of comparison... which to my mind dips into hypocrisy.

One of the chief examples here is the reference to a Cadillac's given sales. This is unlikely to stem from either research into, nor remembrance of, a time when Cadillac sold more in the U.S. than any other luxury make up thru today (late '70s, circa 375K units).... but is more likely to be the association that Cadillac, as part of General Motors, simply MUST! slather the market with volume, and that volume is the prime measure of 'success'. Cadillac, as a 'brand' of a business, must be profitable- that is the goal. Whether the marque makes -say- $500M on 75K sales or 250K sales is immaterial from a business standpoint. Yet Cadillac is continually held up against random volume numbers.

Case in point: >>"who the hell cares about the CTS-V? Does anybody buy it? No. "<< Of course people buy it: 'no one' means zero sales.

The CTS-V performs the exact same role for Cadillac the V-12 s-class does; 'no one' buys that one either, but it's 'necessary' for image-pumping. Bashers OK with a 4-pot S-class immediately point to the V-12 S-class, yet NEVER is the volume of that car mentioned. It's all about the image.... EXCEPT when it comes to Cadillac- where the CTS-V is a 'failure' because it doesn't sell in X-quantity, the CTS SportWagon is a 'failure' because it doesn't sell in X-quantity..... YYEETT the current SRX is a 'failure' because it doesn't have RWD (AWD doesn't factor here) & a V8. #2 sales in the segment is suddenly completely irrelevant- the vehicle is still a 'failure'.... because it doesn't fit the 'hardware agenda' of an internet poster. CTS-V is the flip of that formula and = 'failure'. That hypocrisy undermines the commenter immediately.

BMW 7-series (starts @ $82K) rides on the same platform as the 5-series (starts @ $45K)- yet no one bats an eye. 82% price tag premium, but because the same brand badge is on it, it's 'OK' and NEVER mentioned. Proposed ESPII XTS rides a modified platform under an ESP LaCrosse, and it's all Kleenexs and hand-wringing. Hypocrisy, IMO.

As a die-hard traditionalist WRT the industry, I am in a strict minority that values the image of a V-8 powered Cadillac. Since 1914, baby!

However, in a consumer pool where 75% of BMW 1-series owners BELIEVE they just bought a FWD BMW (which begs the answer to how many think the 3-series is FWD- HAS to be at least 30% by extrapolation) and 'no one' does their own maintenance (never mind repair work)- only a freakishly-small micro-minority know or care how many cylinders are underhood, as long as the relative power is there. I guarantee you, if a V-6 Car X outperformed a V-8 Car Y and NO BRAND NAMES were mentioned, most posters would dump on the V-8 car for having to 'rely' on extra cylinders to do the same job. I've read exactly that countless times over the years.

Any meaningful analysis is going to have to use the same terms/criteria and avoid breezy unsubstantiated subjectives, or nothing useful will ever come out of the discussion.

Well said. People ranting about Caddy seem to have memory loss about the 2008 bankruptcy.

[Sal Collaziano]

It's easy to see how/why Admins and friends will be biased toward Cadillac. Cadillac is my favorite brand and I'm simply concerned. I've been driving Cadillacs for 21 years and I've never been left without a V8 option. Maybe it's just more difficult for me to deal with that reality than some of you younger guys. There's a guy on my forum who's 21 years old and for him, V6 Cadillacs are not an issue at all. I've been driving V8 Cadillacs for as long as he's been alive..

At this point in time, Chevrolet is more likely to have a full-size V8 RWD sedan than Cadillac. That just doesn't make sense to me...

I create these messages to see who's on base with me. I don't expect everyone to agree. I just like knowing that there are other enthusiasts who feel the same way I do..

Well said. People ranting about Caddy seem to have memory loss about the 2008 bankruptcy.

[Drew Dowdell]

In the case of the XTS, your concerns about the lack of torque in the V6 are mitigated by the 2-mode hybrid system. Hybrid systems make their best torque at ZERO rpm.

V8s just aren't necessary for good low end torque anymore. The Ecoboost V6 makes more torque than the Northstar ever did at a lower rpm than the Northstar ever could.

[Lamar]

Sal, no one here is completely ok with Cadillac losing all its mainstream V8 offerings. But that's not gonna be the situation forever. Since the Northstar is gone and the Gen IV smallblock engines only have a few years left, we're all waiting to see the next generation of V8 engines from GM and what they'll offer.

And, as has been said, there are plans for a fullsize RWD Cadillac (and ostensibly V8 powered) to debut for MY 2014.

Again, the present situation isn't forever.

[Z-06]

It's easy to see how/why Admins and friends will be biased toward Cadillac. Cadillac is my favorite brand and I'm simply concerned. I've been driving Cadillacs for 21 years and I've never been left without a V8 option. Maybe it's just more difficult for me to deal with that reality than some of you younger guys. There's a guy on my forum who's 21 years old and for him, V6 Cadillacs are not an issue at all. I've been driving V8 Cadillacs for as long as he's been alive..

At this point in time, Chevrolet is more likely to have a full-size V8 RWD sedan than Cadillac. That just doesn't make sense to me...

I create these messages to see who's on base with me. I don't expect everyone to agree. I just like knowing that there are other enthusiasts who feel the same way I do..

Seriously Sal, try some reading before talking about biases.

If all would have been well in 2008, and car sales would have been at 16M per annum, and if GM model would have worked, you would have had the large, RWD V8 Caddy now instead of 2013.

The argument you are making is about you having Caddy with those attributes NOW, and not about Caddy NOT having the car with those attributes. Given that GM is in the process of making that car neither does the argument of Cadillac going down market nor Caddy not having large, RWD V8 has any base. And when is the last time Caddy made a large, V8, RWD Caddy?

Patience seem to be missing in the so called GM fans.

[smk4565]

In the case of the XTS, your concerns about the lack of torque in the V6 are mitigated by the 2-mode hybrid system. Hybrid systems make their best torque at ZERO rpm.

V8s just aren't necessary for good low end torque anymore. The Ecoboost V6 makes more torque than the Northstar ever did at a lower rpm than the Northstar ever could.

But a V6 doesn't sound like a V8, and the smoothness isn't there. The BMW inline-six has the intangible "it" factor and I'd take it that engine over a lot of V8s, but the ford and GM V6s just can't match a V8 in sound or intangibles.

And the XTS is a barge with wheels, it can have 500 lb-ft, but it is still a barge with wheels designed for seniors in Florida where roads are straight and flat.

[Drew Dowdell]

But a V6 doesn't sound like a V8, and the smoothness isn't there. The BMW inline-six has the intangible "it" factor and I'd take it that engine over a lot of V8s, but the ford and GM V6s just can't match a V8 in sound or intangibles.

And the XTS is a barge with wheels, it can have 500 lb-ft, but it is still a barge with wheels designed for seniors in Florida where roads are straight and flat.

because you've driven one right? You have ZERO idea how it will handle. It will be at least as good as the Lacrosse, which while not a 'Ring burner, can certainly hold it's own. With Magnaride, the XTS should be even better.

As far as the sound, I would expect a car like this to be silent. Especially with a 2-mode hybrid since it can get up to 30mph in electric only mode.

"Intangibles", by definition, are just bunk that BMW drivers use to justify their purchase.

[smk4565]

There are two problems with Cadillac's situation. Yes, GM went bankrupt, but their competitors (who are much better managed) did not. Mercedes isn't going to sit still, and consumers aren't going to have sympathy for Cadillac, they will buy what they feel is the best product to suit their needs. You can't cry about bankruptcy, because that was a self inflicted wound, and they just have to deal with it.

The second problem is Cadillac is constantly chasing, by the time the ATS comes out, there will be a new 3-series and C-class right after, and they'll push the bar even higher. Every time Cadillac does something to catch up, the market moves again and then they have to chase and play the wait til 2013 card. In 2013, it will be, just wait til 2015, when the new CTS comes, and the story never ends.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM is substantially more flexible than they were even just a year ago. The only way you'd be happy is if GM just threw in the towel and rebadged BMWs... but then you'd still find some "intangible" to bark about

[smk4565]

because you've driven one right? You have ZERO idea how it will handle. It will be at least as good as the Lacrosse, which while not a 'Ring burner, can certainly hold it's own. With Magnaride, the XTS should be even better.

As far as the sound, I would expect a car like this to be silent. Especially with a 2-mode hybrid since it can get up to 30mph in electric only mode.

"Intangibles", by definition, are just bunk that BMW drivers use to justify their purchase.

For luxury cars, I find the CTS average at handling (but I drove an FE2 AWD, which could be the problem), I doubt the XTS handles better than a CTS, so I have zero interest in a car like that. Silent is nice when cruising around, but performance/luxury should be able to sound like a race car when you want it to. That is the one good thing about a Maserati, when you wind it up the noise it makes is insane.

[smk4565]

GM is substantially more flexible than they were even just a year ago. The only way you'd be happy is if GM just threw in the towel and rebadged BMWs... but then you'd still find some "intangible" to bark about

I agree they are more flexible, they are in much better shape than they were, and can actually compete now. I just don't like when people use bankruptcy as an excuse. It is like the Pirates complaining that they don't have as much money as the Yankees. They are all in the same league, so you just have to deal with it. Yes, Mercedes has an unfair advantage globally, but that is how it is, so Cadillac just has to overcome that somehow.

[Drew Dowdell]

For luxury cars, I find the CTS average at handling (but I drove an FE2 AWD, which could be the problem), I doubt the XTS handles better than a CTS, so I have zero interest in a car like that. Silent is nice when cruising around, but performance/luxury should be able to sound like a race car when you want it to. That is the one good thing about a Maserati, when you wind it up the noise it makes is insane.

Since when is the XTS supposed to out handle the CTS? The S-class can't out handle the C-Class. The 7-series can't out handle the 3-series. Yes there is technological innovation, but there is still Sir Issac Newton to consider assuming technology is applied equally.

I'd wager quite a bit that the Lacrosse AND XTS could out handle your Aurora without breaking a sweat.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree they are more flexible, they are in much better shape than they were, and can actually compete now. I just don't like when people use bankruptcy as an excuse. It is like the Pirates complaining that they don't have as much money as the Yankees. They are all in the same league, so you just have to deal with it. Yes, Mercedes has an unfair advantage globally, but that is how it is, so Cadillac just has to overcome that somehow.

Again, GM has out paced Toyota's profits on $32 billion in revenue in just one quarter...... almost everything we know about the ATS is wild speculation except body styles and platform. The best we can guess about the XTS is that it has at least the abilities of the Lacrosse/9-5 neither of which are sports cars, but handle very well in their respective segments.

[Hudson]

I don't like Cadillac adding the Epsilon platform...

...The V8 DTS is being replaced by a V6 that rides on the same platform as a Chevy Impala and Buick LaCrosse..

(the Impala is still on the W-body platform and the LaCrosse is on the Epsilon platform....not related)

...just like I don't like Lincoln abandoning REAL luxury cars (the MKZ and MKS don't count as "real" luxury cars to me). I want to see Lincoln introduce a rear-wheel drive car just as I want the XTS to go away.

[z28luvr01]

The XTS is a Fritz car that I'd half expect to not see a second generation. I can see it being used as a transition vehicle for Cadillac. Yeah, it's WWD, but I'd expect the blue hairs will turn away from it because of the departure from the DTS's tame styling, possibly setting the stage for a "proper" replacement.

[smk4565]

Since when is the XTS supposed to out handle the CTS? The S-class can't out handle the C-Class. The 7-series can't out handle the 3-series. Yes there is technological innovation, but there is still Sir Issac Newton to consider assuming technology is applied equally.

I'd wager quite a bit that the Lacrosse AND XTS could out handle your Aurora without breaking a sweat.

The XTS isn't supposed to out-handle a CTS, but in a way that is my point, why build a land barge that will get ridiculed and doesn't fit with the rest of the lineup. And you are right, a 7-series can't handle with a 3-series, but a 7-series can hold it's own, and it has ride quality. You can power slide a 7-series or S-class, can't do that with a LaCrosse/XTS type vehicle.

I haven't driven a Lacrosse, maybe it can handle better than the Aurora, but it is also 10 years newer. My next car will be rear wheel drive, front wheel drive already hit it's limit. I bet the LaCrosse still has a lot of body roll to it, it is heavier than the Aurora, and is Epsilon 2 really any better than the G-body platform? Epsilon 1 twisted and shuttered over bumps like a plate of jell-o during an earthquake.

[smk4565]

The best we can guess about the XTS is that it has at least the abilities of the Lacrosse/9-5 neither of which are sports cars, but handle very well in their respective segments.

Well I am glad that the biggest and most expensive Cadillac sedan will have the abilities of the a Buick and a Saab. Not only that, but a Buick and Saab that had already been on sale for a few years by the time it comes out. I'm so glad "the new standard of the world" has set their sights so high.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS isn't supposed to out-handle a CTS, but in a way that is my point, why build a land barge that will get ridiculed and doesn't fit with the rest of the lineup. And you are right, a 7-series can't handle with a 3-series, but a 7-series can hold it's own, and it has ride quality. You can power slide a 7-series or S-class, can't do that with a LaCrosse/XTS type vehicle.

I haven't driven a Lacrosse, maybe it can handle better than the Aurora, but it is also 10 years newer. My next car will be rear wheel drive, front wheel drive already hit it's limit. I bet the LaCrosse still has a lot of body roll to it, it is heavier than the Aurora, and is Epsilon 2 really any better than the G-body platform? Epsilon 1 twisted and shuttered over bumps like a plate of jell-o during an earthquake.

Some Eps1 twisted over bumps. By the time they got to the current Malibu, they had resolved that. Eps2 is like driving a vault.

Power sliding is now a requirement for large lux cars? You couldn't powerslide an A8, an LS, or an S-Class because the electronic nannies would stop you.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well I am glad that the biggest and most expensive Cadillac sedan will have the abilities of the a Buick and a Saab. Not only that, but a Buick and Saab that had already been on sale for a few years by the time it comes out. I'm so glad "the new standard of the world" has set their sights so high.

The Lacrosse and 9-5 are both excellent bases to start from.

[smk4565]

Some Eps1 twisted over bumps. By the time they got to the current Malibu, they had resolved that. Eps2 is like driving a vault.

Power sliding is now a requirement for large lux cars? You couldn't powerslide an A8, an LS, or an S-Class because the electronic nannies would stop you.

My experience with the first round of Epsilon 1 was that, but it is good that Ep 2 has solved that.

You can power slide a Jaguar XJ at 70 mph, and you can turn the nannies in the S-class off and power slide or drift it as much as you please. Top Gear had an S-class and 7-series doing plenty of sideways maneuvers on their track. The A8 is weak, and LS will probably run away and hide when it sees a corner, so I don't know about those two.

[Lamar]

Yeah, I can't wait until I come into money.

Then I'm gonna go out and buy an S65 AMG. And drift it every weekend.

[balthazar]

Current Malibu is indeed an excellent handler and solid like a vault.

W-Body GP is not bad, but is slightly mushier with a bit more plowing and slightly heavier steering (tho just as quick). You can still whip one around, enjoy it & not get into trouble.

[Sal Collaziano]

In the case of the XTS, your concerns about the lack of torque in the V6 are mitigated by the 2-mode hybrid system. Hybrid systems make their best torque at ZERO rpm.

V8s just aren't necessary for good low end torque anymore. The Ecoboost V6 makes more torque than the Northstar ever did at a lower rpm than the Northstar ever could.

I don't believe the hybrid engine will be ready for the release of the XTS. Unless I'm mistaken, that engine seems like a big question mark right now. If you could point me to evidence that I'm wrong, I'd be quite happy to BE wrong.

Sal, no one here is completely ok with Cadillac losing all its mainstream V8 offerings. But that's not gonna be the situation forever. Since the Northstar is gone and the Gen IV smallblock engines only have a few years left, we're all waiting to see the next generation of V8 engines from GM and what they'll offer.

And, as has been said, there are plans for a fullsize RWD Cadillac (and ostensibly V8 powered) to debut for MY 2014.

Again, the present situation isn't forever.

I've been hearing about the new V8 and I'm really intrigued. I'd have much preferred the Ultra V8 and still hope that project can be completed and ready for a RWD full-size if and when we get one. I'll take an LSx, however. Something is better than nothing. I doubt the media will be as forgiving as I'll be..

Seriously Sal, try some reading before talking about biases.

If all would have been well in 2008, and car sales would have been at 16M per annum, and if GM model would have worked, you would have had the large, RWD V8 Caddy now instead of 2013.

The argument you are making is about you having Caddy with those attributes NOW, and not about Caddy NOT having the car with those attributes. Given that GM is in the process of making that car neither does the argument of Cadillac going down market nor Caddy not having large, RWD V8 has any base. And when is the last time Caddy made a large, V8, RWD Caddy?

Patience seem to be missing in the so called GM fans.

I've been patient for a long time now.. And as it stands, I don't know of ANY definite plans for a full-size RWD Cadillac with a V8. The insiders I speak with can tell me very little, honestly - but they have confirmed that there are no definite plans at this time. I believe them.

The only way you'd be happy is if GM just threw in the towel and rebadged BMWs... but then you'd still find some "intangible" to bark about

You sound like you're taking all of this too personally. We're just having a conversation here. Some of us agree and some of us don't. I don't think there's any reason to get so emotional and angry. To each his/her own...

[regfootball]

considering that the dual mode and 3.6 was being readied for production last spring in the now defunct cadillac vu.....er, saturn vue, i am guessing that there is not much more work on the powertrain needed to get it into the XTS.

GM needs a model or 2 to write off the cost of developing that 3.6/dual mode and the XTS appears to be the survivor to that role. it has the transaction price to bear that.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't believe the hybrid engine will be ready for the release of the XTS. Unless I'm mistaken, that engine seems like a big question mark right now. If you could point me to evidence that I'm wrong, I'd be quite happy to BE wrong.

The 3.6 2-mode hybrid was near release for the 2010 model year. It was yanked at the last minute once Saturn went under.

You sound like you're taking all of this too personally. We're just having a conversation here. Some of us agree and some of us don't. I don't think there's any reason to get so emotional and angry. To each his/her own...

SMK and I have a long.... history and his hypocrisy is explained best by Bathlazar's earlier post.

[Drew Dowdell]

Spotted at the LA Design center.

[balthazar]

Whoa !! I'll assume that's a Photochop, but still; needs. see. bigger....

[Lamar]

Interesting concept. Wonder what will become of it...

[regfootball]

Spotted at the LA Design center.

cliche, unoriginal, 'lets tack an eggcrate on an Aston or a Chrysler Firepower'

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yawnnnnnnnnnnn, Sal's made up argument is making me tired ...

[Sal Collaziano]

I like it.. Very interesting..

Spotted at the LA Design center.

[Lamar]

What I can't tell is if that's a Cadillac with Sixteen elements superimposed on the Camaro chassis... or on the Solstice Coupe body. At second glance, I'm leaning toward the latter.

[Camino LS6]

Spotted at the LA Design center.

Whoa!

Now that's a Caddy worth talking about!

As for the rest, the Germans (except Audi) are vulnerable in my view. Their flagships are hideous bloatmobiles, so if Caddy gets the flagship to market soon, they can rob the Germans of many a sale. The same goes for Jaguar, with its even more unattractive flagship (bordering on just plain wierd).

The ATS may be key for volume and general rep, but a proper flagship will give real status back to Cadillac.

Judging by the above design study - I'd take mine in coupe form.