RRRRRing... "Dark Side Here!"

[ocnblu]

Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge should all be ashamed of themselves. Suddenly, it's 2011 in the car world, and there is NO small, affordable coupe in any of the domestic lineups. So, I went looking and found this car. When I first saw the new tC, I was underwhelmed, it looked like the old car with Halloween costume muscles, but looking closer, I can see a nice stance, with a wide track, sporty ride height, and a masculine body with just the right amount of sinew. If it drives as nice as it looks, it should be a winner, AND it's the only game in town right now, except for the Civic and unfun-to-drive Forte, and I like this better than either of those.

A lot of single people still appreciate the personal, sporty coupe. And this Cement tC with lower bodyside graphic and foglights at the link (try clicking "recent builds"), in concert with the handsome standard wheels, evokes that independent spirit, while keeping a family resemblance to sporting Toyota coupes of the past... it has that Japanese look, without being too weird. I really like this now.

Edited October 30, 2010 by ocnblu

[Camino LS6]

Ocn, I fear that you are not well.

Time for a good dose of vintage Pontiac to set you right.

[balthazar]

ocnblu's definition of "no" ::

Edited October 30, 2010 by balthazar

[ocnblu]

I do like the 2-door Fiesta, balthy, but I ain't moving to Europe to get it. Ford's Fiesta marketing chick says "nobody" wants coupes in the US. She's a birdbrain.

[A Horse With No Name]

I feel the exact same way that you do, 'blu.

My only domesticchoices would be a used SS Cobalt coupe, an older SVT Focus, or a very old and ahrd to get Neon ACR...or the difficult to work on but fun SRT-4...which is still around ten grand for a six or seven year old car.

Ten grand for a seven year old car ain't gonna work when it's gotta haul kids all over creation and run the auto-x on Sunday.

Metrhinks a dose of vintage Pontiac could set me right as well...but then again, I was about 4 years old when a 69 Firebird coupe was built, and I'm 45 now...different time, different place, different era...

[Camino LS6]

You know I'm with you on the lack of coupes Ocn, but a coupe at what cost?

Could never do the Scion badge - no way, no how.

But I'm bloody sick of sedans.

[z28luvr01]

*AHEM*

[Intrepidation]

RWD, 31 MPG, 305-HP V6, Starting at $22,145

As far as Scion goes, I've always like the first gen tC, but I'm not feeling the new car.

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, yeah... Mustang and Camaro - the "givens".

Add in Challenger...

And the question becomes: "would you like the Chevy, Ford, or Dodge coupe?

Need more choices.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah but hold off on a Challenger until the 2011's come out.

Of course, of ocn's criteria, only the Mustang is anywhere near "small" The other two are bigger cars.

[balthazar]

I do like the 2-door Fiesta, balthy, but I ain't moving to Europe to get it. Ford's Fiesta marketing chick says "nobody" wants coupes in the US. She's a birdbrain.

My bad- I thought it was available here! I swore I saw a TV ad for a 2-dr; guess not. Of the two choices, I'd certainly pick a Ford 4-dr over a toyota 2-dr, any day & everyday.

Keep reminding yourself- 25 million recalled...

[A Horse With No Name]

Yeah, yeah... Mustang and Camaro - the "givens".

Add in Challenger...

And the question becomes: "would you like the Chevy, Ford, or Dodge coupe?

Need more choices.

Agree on more choices...

[daves87rs]

*AHEM*

+1:cheering:

[Cory Wolfe]

Yes, we need proper coupes.

[ocnblu]

Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are all, of course, fantastic vehicles. What I am lamenting is the lack of smaller, cheaper, sporty, fun to drive coupes from the domestics.

Cobalt and Focus coupes are gone, for now, with only the faintest whispers (let alone promises) of a return. Neon coupe has been gone for several years. I've always seen PLENTY of all three in my area. So when those people are ready to buy again, or when new intenders are ready to pull the trigger, where can they go? Scion, Honda and Kia... so we've managed to give away yet another market segment to foreign competition. UNACCEPTABLE.

And another thing... if the Big 3 do come back with compact coupes, they'd better not be "special, halo" models that are priced out of reach of the market. A base model with a good chassis and good looks will get ppl in the door.

[A Horse With No Name]

About a week ago I was sitting at a bar, reading a copy of the Columbus dispatch and watching the Ohio State football game. The Columbus Dispatch does a write up on a local high school athlete on Saturday, and their write up was about a girl from Marysville who played Golf, IIRC she won a state championship.

She was also very passionate about older rock and roll music and cars. Her car of choice? Mommy and daddy had her set up in a nice black 4 door Civic SI.

The good, bad and ugly of the situation is that we've pretty much lost a lot of the younger generation to American small cars. You think it's some kind of accident that Black Viper owns a Honda and a Vee Dub? As the parent of three teenagers I can tell you, the cars kids are into are NOT domestics. As nice as GM4life's write up about the Taurus was in another thread...this ain't the kind of car that will win over younger fans.

Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are fine for us as forty something males...but....we are loosing the battle.

The other group we are loosing the battle with is the hispanic population. they love domestic trucks, but seem to really prefer import cars.

THIS needs to change!

[ocnblu]

I've found a lot of local latin folks (and there are many) like Toyotas (old and new, they seem to love 70's Corollas)... but my Rican next door neighbor has an Expedition and a tricked-out 300C. And we all know about the SoCal latin love for Impollas of all stripes. And I think Mexicans love Mopars, as well.

[A Horse With No Name]

I've found a lot of local latin folks (and there are many) like Toyotas (old and new, they seem to love 70's Corollas)... but my Rican next door neighbor has an Expedition and a tricked-out 300C. And we all know about the SoCal latin love for Impollas of all stripes. And I think Mexicans love Mopars, as well.

The Impollas they love were built back during the Era of kennedy and Johnson...But good point.

We still need domestic cars that will reach this marketing demographic

[balthazar]

>>"As the parent of three teenagers I can tell you, the cars kids are into are NOT domestics.

...Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are fine for us as forty something males..."<<

My older son is 16, he's not a car enthusiast per say (tho he does appreciate them), but he drools over the Challenger & esp the Mustang.

I think a LOT of teenagers see the asian makes by what's on the road for the most part- camcords, sentras, corollas & cheap sonatas- I don't see any of those pulling in today's teens either.

There is NOTHING like a Mustang/Camaro from overseas to be seen, and as consumers-to-be, cars like a kia or VW or civic 2-dr are nothing special from the curb.

Once they are actively shopping, things might be different.

[A Horse With No Name]

>>"As the parent of three teenagers I can tell you, the cars kids are into are NOT domestics.

...Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are fine for us as forty something males..."<<

My older son is 16, he's not a car enthusiast per say (tho he does appreciate them), but he drools over the Challenger & esp the Mustang.

I think a LOT of teenagers see the asian makes by what's on the road for the most part- camcords, sentras, corollas & cheap sonatas- I don't see any of those pulling in today's teens either.

There is NOTHING like a Mustang/Camaro from overseas to be seen, and as consumers-to-be, cars like a kia or VW or civic 2-dr are nothing special from the curb.

Once they are actively shopping, things might be different.

I'm saying this as a general rule...

Some teens obviously like them, but by and large, most teens...the Camaro, challenger, and Mustang are pretty much off their radar.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm saying this as a general rule...

Some teens obviously like them, but by and large, most teens...the Camaro, challenger, and Mustang are pretty much off their radar.

because they know they could never afford the insurance on one.... and if Daddy is buying, they'd rather have a CPO 3-series for the same price.

[A Horse With No Name]

because they know they could never afford the insurance on one.... and if Daddy is buying, they'd rather have a CPO 3-series for the same price.

More truth here than I want to admit...

[balthazar]

Insurance costs, assuming the general teenager has looked into them, are a factor, but no new car is cheap insurance-wise, and this still doesn't factor into what teenagers LIKE from the curb IMO. The post I reacted to here was 66stang's, regarding 'what kids aren't into'. Insurance is a financial factor mostly concerning the parents of said teenagers.

While a given teenager may like a 3-series by itself, I don't imagine any who like the Mustang will default to a 3-series and be 'into it' because the insurance is cheaper. Unless they have little opinion of cars beyond transportation. Teenagers don't buy new cars anyway, ABA is now 50 or thereabouts, IIRC.

Does a V6 Mustang really cost that much more to insure than a civic ?? ( i ask because I have no idea.)

Edited October 31, 2010 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

I know that a Cutlass Coupe cost more to insure than a civic back in the day....

[Satty]

Genesis Coupe > tC

Does a V6 Mustang really cost that much more to insure than a civic ?? ( i ask because I have no idea.)

Playing with State Farm's website leads me to find the Mustang and Civic EX are within 1% of each other, both about 6% less than the tC. The Genesis Coupe 2.0 is about 20% less than the tC. I didn't check the Mustang Gt, Civic Si or Genesis 3.8 or 2.0 Track models.

[balthazar]

^ interesting! Lot of bad civic drivers, I guess... but then again, everything is expensive to insure anymore. hyundai must be cheaper to repair

What say you, ocnblu?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge should all be ashamed of themselves. Suddenly, it's 2011 in the car world, and there is NO small, affordable coupe in any of the domestic lineups. So, I went looking and found this car. When I first saw the new tC, I was underwhelmed, it looked like the old car with Halloween costume muscles, but looking closer, I can see a nice stance, with a wide track, sporty ride height, and a masculine body with just the right amount of sinew. If it drives as nice as it looks, it should be a winner, AND it's the only game in town right now, except for the Civic and unfun-to-drive Forte, and I like this better than either of those.

A lot of single people still appreciate the personal, sporty coupe. And this Cement tC with lower bodyside graphic and foglights at the link (try clicking "recent builds"), in concert with the handsome standard wheels, evokes that independent spirit, while keeping a family resemblance to sporting Toyota coupes of the past... it has that Japanese look, without being too weird. I really like this now.

I agree 100%... I've been thinking this exact same thing since I saw the teaser commercials.

You guys all know how much I hate Toyota, but I'll admit that the new tC is, by and large, more appealing to me than anything out of Detroit lately. Of course, I thought the old tC was nice too. (Even though we all know I wouldn't be caught dead driving one)

ocnblu's definition of "no" ::

God, that is such a hot car. Why did Ford have to (as always) water it down for us? I mean, the new Fiesta is nice and it puts the new Aveo to shame, but it's no where near as hot as the Euro version.

Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are all, of course, fantastic vehicles. What I am lamenting is the lack of smaller, cheaper, sporty, fun to drive coupes from the domestics.

Cobalt and Focus coupes are gone, for now, with only the faintest whispers (let alone promises) of a return. Neon coupe has been gone for several years. I've always seen PLENTY of all three in my area. So when those people are ready to buy again, or when new intenders are ready to pull the trigger, where can they go? Scion, Honda and Kia... so we've managed to give away yet another market segment to foreign competition. UNACCEPTABLE.

And another thing... if the Big 3 do come back with compact coupes, they'd better not be "special, halo" models that are priced out of reach of the market. A base model with a good chassis and good looks will get ppl in the door.

I'm willing to bet that a huge chunk of them will go to Kia (except the hardcore Japan Inc. humpers who will trade for the new model or 'graduate' to a bigger sushi wagon)

I love small cars as much as I love my old 500hp Camaro and the lack of choice from GM FOR YEARS is scary. The only reason I ended up in a Ford (my much beloved ZX3 Focus) in the first place was because I couldn't STAND GM small cars.

I also think the current crop of pony cars is too big. The Challenger and Camaro are HUGE and the Mustang is big too. That's one reason I like my 01' GT because I think it's the perfect size for a pony car (even though it isn't much smaller than the afore mentioned)

GM and the domestics in general have notoriously IGNORED the 'thrifty' segments and that's a very bad thing because that's where you pick up younger buyers. GM in the nineties churned out amazing trucks, performance cars and halo vehicles only to leave us young people with Cavaliers, dated Saturns and Sunfires to buy. I could excuse that, because I knew their financial situation. But now, it's no different... Even with the vaunted new Camaro, GM leaves all of the good stuff for the more pricey models. The base Camaro looks like the 'budget' rental car version of the awesome SS. This absence of cool is what I was targeting when I contributed the Chevelle Xtreme to our Skunk Works project. It's something affordable that conveys the IMAGE that people want to convey, because we all know that purchases are based largely on perception and image.

Another thing Detroit needs to do is actually inform the consumer that it sells FUN small cars.

I have a friend who is younger than me (22-23) and he's currently car shopping. He asked me if I'd ever heard of the Cobalt SS the other day. So I told him about the car (and the HHR SS) and he was floored. Mind you, this guy is no poser. He's always driven/built compact performance cars and he's even FROM Michigan. Get the point?

The consumer has been CONDITIONED to expect crappy small cars from Detroit, so they don't even look. However, that same consumer also knows that Detroit is the place to go for trucks and large/performance cars. Unfortunately, a lot of these consumers who don't consider Detroit get hooked by the 'excellent perceived reliability and service' of the asisna brands and therefore lock Detroit out of future purchase decisions when it's time to move up. LUCKILY, this is starting to change as more of my younger friends talk Detroit in a positive light as opposed to my classmates (I'm 28) who were basically anti-Detroit.

About a week ago I was sitting at a bar, reading a copy of the Columbus dispatch and watching the Ohio State football game. The Columbus Dispatch does a write up on a local high school athlete on Saturday, and their write up was about a girl from Marysville who played Golf, IIRC she won a state championship.

She was also very passionate about older rock and roll music and cars. Her car of choice? Mommy and daddy had her set up in a nice black 4 door Civic SI.

The good, bad and ugly of the situation is that we've pretty much lost a lot of the younger generation to American small cars. You think it's some kind of accident that Black Viper owns a Honda and a Vee Dub? As the parent of three teenagers I can tell you, the cars kids are into are NOT domestics. As nice as GM4life's write up about the Taurus was in another thread...this ain't the kind of car that will win over younger fans.

Camaro, Mustang and Challenger are fine for us as forty something males...but....we are loosing the battle.

The other group we are loosing the battle with is the hispanic population. they love domestic trucks, but seem to really prefer import cars.

THIS needs to change!

I agree and disagree... I don't think 'the kids' have anything against Detroit. But the preconceived notion is that one goes to Detroit to buy trucks and sports cars and one goes to europe to buy luxury cars and one goes to Asia to buy affordable, efficient cars. Naturally, these kids are looking at affordable and (thanks to the green agenda bull&#036;h&#33;) increasingly efficient, so Detroit isn't on their list yet.

The pony cars are very sweet and EVERYONE knows it and EVERYONE admires them. But hell, people my age (young college educated professionals WITHOUT KIDS) can't even afford those.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

because they know they could never afford the insurance on one.... and if Daddy is buying, they'd rather have a CPO 3-series for the same price.

Yepper... Or their parnets would rather them go that route.

Insurance costs, assuming the general teenager has looked into them, are a factor, but no new car is cheap insurance-wise, and this still doesn't factor into what teenagers LIKE from the curb IMO. The post I reacted to here was 66stang's, regarding 'what kids aren't into'. Insurance is a financial factor mostly concerning the parents of said teenagers.

While a given teenager may like a 3-series by itself, I don't imagine any who like the Mustang will default to a 3-series and be 'into it' because the insurance is cheaper. Unless they have little opinion of cars beyond transportation. Teenagers don't buy new cars anyway, ABA is now 50 or thereabouts, IIRC.

Does a V6 Mustang really cost that much more to insure than a civic ?? ( i ask because I have no idea.)

That actually touches on a rather disturbing trend that I've noticed lately. Many younger people (my age) seem to be unwilling to justify the expense of a new car. Depreciation is so bad and prices so inflated that even I would have a hard time buying something plebeian just because of the HUGE waste of money.

How long until the 'realization' catches on? ESPECIALLY when all of the new CAFE bull&#036;h&#33; (because that's what it is) starts inflatiing prices even FURTHER out of the working class range (working class, because middle class no longer exists)

And as far as V6 pony cars... Until someone really AMPS up the style of these cars or at least gives customers the option to do that (Ford is starting to) they will continue to be considered 'poser cars' to everyone but sorority girls and secretaries.

[Satty]

^ interesting! Lot of bad civic drivers, I guess... but then again, everything is expensive to insure anymore. hyundai must be cheaper to repair

Just for the lulz, an XKR is about 20% more than the tC, a Cayman is about 3% more, a 911 about 12% more, and a ZR-1 is (not surprisingly) about 80% more than the tC.

[ocnblu]

As luck would have it, local dealer actually has a Concrete tC manual without goofy spoiler in stock. And the website is not exaggerating in its portrayal of the car... it looks good in person, with a 180 hp engine this year (more than Civic EX and Forte). I thought the Concrete colour was a non-metallic, but it does have a bit of pearl effect to it. I like the dash in the new tC, it reminds me a bit of the Acura RSX, with its high, rectangular binnacle... something different. And I like the fold-flat back seat... true utility. The interior doesn't look overly expensive, to be sure, but overall, I think the changes are all good.

If I could afford two vehicles, this is one I'd definitely drive before I dismiss it out of hand.

[A Horse With No Name]

I like it more than I like to admit myself. I want a modern sport coupe for my next car, and I want to buy new.

Would prefer not to go retro with the Stang, Challenger, or Camaro, even though I love the designs.

Forte leaves something to be desired in terms of driving dynamics, and the GTI is twenty four grand.

For six grand cheaper....this ain't a bad car.

But I think I'm still going to spell relief GTI or Mini Cooper S.

[Robert Hall]

Of the compact FWD coupes for the youfs, there are only 4 left--Kia Forte Koup, Eclipse, tC, and Civic...I think I've only seen one of the Koups, it's pretty nice decent looking, IMO.

I agree w/ 66, if I went compact FWD, I'd go for a hot hatch like the GTI or Mini Cooper S..those seem the most fun to drive and have cross-generational appeal. But I'd still probably prefer a Mustang/Challenger/Camaro (in that order of preference).

Edited November 1, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Z-06]

A good Chevy Cruze coupe with 1.6T with 180 odd hp, and 2.0T with 260 odd hp would do miracles.

[daves87rs]

People don't want to say it...but the love for the car is dying. You only have to look how the companies have had to idiot proof cars. Make them a rolling computer.

Epic failure of some sport cars...

All people care about today is MPGs and how much music it will hold, or bluetooth, and Facebook and stuff...

Of course, it's hard to blame them with high gas prices (or the constant fear of them), and the high cost to pay for them...

[ocnblu]

There are at least 2 owner reviews from retirees who have bought 2011 tCs on Edmunds.

[A Horse With No Name]

People don't want to say it...but the love for the car is dying. You only have to look how the companies have had to idiot proof cars. Make them a rolling computer.

Epic failure of some sport cars...

All people care about today is MPGs and how much music it will hold, or bluetooth, and Facebook and stuff...

Of course, it's hard to blame them with high gas prices (or the constant fear of them), and the high cost to pay for them...

In terms of sporty stuff...buy it now, because like the 1960's stuff it ain't ever going to come back.

The Honda CRZ is a joke.

the S2000 only sold about three or four hundred cars a month max, as did the RX-8.

Fuel economy standards will kill another Rotary powered sports car from coming here from Mazda.

The Solstice and Sky were the last of the small sporty roadsters we will see from GM.

Who knows how long the Miata will hold on?

VW mat well cheapen the GTI like they did the Jetta.

It's tick tock for BMW, MINI's parent company.

Sorry to be grim....but....the small sporty car MAY go the way of the dodo bird.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Much as I hate to admit it. And I REALLY hate to; "The electrification of the car" could very well revitalize interest in personal transportation because of the innovation needed.

But I could never see myself being a part of that. I feel that an ICE powered car is to an electric car as a steam engine is to a diesel locomotive. The romance is gone...

[A Horse With No Name]

Much as I hate to admit it. And I REALLY hate to; "The electrification of the car" could very well revitalize interest in personal transportation because of the innovation needed.

But I could never see myself being a part of that. I feel that an ICE powered car is to an electric car as a steam engine is to a diesel locomotive. The romance is gone...

Nahhh...E- series EMD's pulling a passenger train through the night is still plenty "romantic."

A volt is still way cool personal transportation...just not as exciting in any way as a 1960's Pontiac or Chevrolet.

[Cory Wolfe]

There are at least 2 owner reviews from retirees who have bought 2011 tCs on Edmunds.

Just say no. The tC is a mostly ugly little thing. The rest of the car is okay for the most part, and like you, I enjoy the interior. I just can't stand the exterior.

[Robert Hall]

Nahhh...E- series EMD's pulling a passenger train through the night is still plenty "romantic."

A volt is still way cool personal transportation...just not as exciting in any way as a 1960's Pontiac or Chevrolet.

I had no idea what an 'E- series EMD' was, googled it. Interesting.

I've never taken any heavy passenger long distance rail journeys in the US, only light rail in a few cities/suburbs.

As far as travel in the US, I'm most familiar w/ the cattle car experience on various Boeings and Airbuses. Looking out the window at a carpet of city lights (and recognizing streets and other landmarks of favorite destinations) on approach at night is fun..did that Friday night flying into Denver.

Long distance rail travel in the US does sound fun from what I've read, with the big downside being: time.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

I know CSPEC or someone will call me a dumbass...but that's okay. To me, life moves way to fast, with little time for contemplation.

In a train, where you can't really do much other than read or work on a lap top, time takes on a different dimension. I long for an America with some regional differences...I like what you call us now...gnericans...an Appleby's on every corner and a super Wal Mart in every shopping mall.

God help us.

[Robert Hall]

Train travel definitely has it's appeal, on a train the voyage is a key part of the experience, as important as the destination..as with a road trip by automobile. Flying is a pragmatic means to get to a destination as fast as possible-- a means to an end. I couldn't do my 3-4 day cross-country weekend getaways without flying.

I want to take the time for one of those great cross country rail trips eventually...a buddy of mine and his wife did one from Denver to San Francisco (California Zephyr?) a few years ago, said it was very memorable.

I'd also like to take a transatlantic voyage at sea.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar