Some clarification....

[hyperv6]

Ok every one has said a lot of dates and what is not possible. All agree that 07 is out and now some say 08 is out ot not likley.

Is fall of 08 as a 09MY the reasonable target now to look for. It would fit into to the Canadian plant losing the W body line in 08?

Also any word on what V6 will base the car or be a likley canadate. The only thing that has been said by GM is the 3.9 is wrong when Edmunds listed it with the 6.0.

Also would it be cheaper to offer a 5.3 with DOD as a base engine over tooling the car for a V6? I don't know the figures on cost between the two but was told the 5.3 in the GP is cheaper to build than the 3.8SC to build. It may just be the cost of the SC I don't know. I have never seen the numbers to verifiy this.

I know Fbodfather had posted on the Camaro site and asked what they thought of the 5.3. It could be just as a base V8 and a middle engine over a V6? Anyway he was asking but never said why. There must bve some thinking going on on the 5.3 for something.

I like to see what anyone has heard and know on this since so little has been said. The Base engine vs the Mustangs base will be very important to this car and make up the bulk of the sales.

Edited March 20, 2006 by hyperv6

[Chazman]

Ok every one has said a lot of dates and what is not possible. All agree that 07 is out and now some say 08 is out ot not likley.

Is fall of 08 as a 09MY the reasonable target now to look for. It would fit into to the Canadian plant losing the W body line in 08?

Also any word on what V6 will base the car or be a likley canadate. The only thing that has been said by GM is the 3.9 is wrong when Edmunds listed it with the 6.0.

Also would it be cheaper to offer a 5.3 with DOD as a base engine over tooling the car for a V6? I don't know the figures on cost between the two but was told the 5.3 in the GP is cheaper to build than the 3.8SC to build. It may just be the cost of the SC I don't know. I have never seen the numbers to verifiy this.

I know Fbodfather had posted on the Camaro site and asked what they thought of the 5.3. It could be just as a base V8 and a middle engine over a V6? Anyway he was asking but never said why. There must bve some thinking going on on the 5.3 for something.

I like to see what anyone has heard and know on this since so little has been said. The Base engine vs the Mustangs base will be very important to this car and make up the bulk of the sales.

A 6.0L is not part of the program. And it now appears a 5.3L won't either.

[91z4me]

A 6.0L is not part of the program. And it now appears a 5.3L won't either.

6.2. and what other V8. What would replace the 5.3? 5.5 maybe?

[Chazman]

  What would replace the 5.3?  5.5 maybe?

No nothing like that. Perhaps something with fewer cylinders and comparable hp.

[z28luvr01]

3.6L HFV6 with direct injection?

[91z4me]

No nothing like that. Perhaps something with fewer cylinders and comparable hp.

Hmmm...I thought the base V8 case would have already been made. Perhaps it will be a HV V6, HF V6, and V8.

[Chazman]

Hmmm...I thought the base V8 case would have already been made.  Perhaps it will be a HV V6, HF V6, and V8.

It was...

But that's changed....

We'll see if it changes again....

BTW, add one more V8 to that. A badass one.

[Northstar]

HF 3.6L V6 (DI), 6.2L LS3, and supercharged LS3?

[hyperv6]

Does anybody know what the powertrain is going to be?

Might get a better responce if you ask what they won't be.

I have seen few that will name what to look for but many will say what not to expect.

You might be able to weed it down to what ones they are looking at.

[toesuf94]

Seems I'm missing a good thread here.

I'm going to say some things (hopefully nothing I shouldn't), and I'll leave it to everyone to ponder. Sorry no dates, model names, or blueprints. Things are moving way too fast and often with Zeta to jepordize connections now.

1st, Holden is supplying the suspension. The IRS and the front strut suspension design is on the VE. All the durability testing is done & the car will be in production in about 6 months or so. That's an area that GM-NA doesn't have to do. Saves time.

2nd, the Camaro, Impala, and the other Zetas aren't going into styling clinics. They'll be shown at autoshows, or at limited showings to members of the press, insiders, some stockholders, and various outside VIPs. This saves time in design evolution. The cars don't have to go back for styling revisions, and the cars aren't "Designed by Comittee".

3. The VE Zeta will share alot of structural stampings (or mildly revised ones) with the current VZ which was what our Zeta was initially based on. These cars were at the 18-24 month timeframe when GM-NA cancelled them early last year. Evidently, these were transitional cars since there was yet another Zeta (the "volume" version destined for Chevy, including Camaro) that was due in the 2010/2011 timeframe, and would have likely been expanded beyond Chevy.

What has essentially been done is that GM-NA skipped over a transition Zeta and accelerated the next Zeta (or you can also say GM-NA created their own version using Holden's parts, which Holden will probally adopt early next decade).

When GM picked up their pens again on Zeta mid last year, it was to develop the "Chevy" Zeta. GM has cancelled the new Trailblazer to fund this program, and postponed the next Malibu, and made alot of other changes.

What's being missed by those who say there's no GTO being worked on is that the GTO (and certain other Zetas) are done (remember...18 to 24 months from production when shelved early last year?).  The GTO (and other Zeta cars) will have their design transfered to  the "Chevy Zeta" structure. That's why the only thing that's noticed is the Impala & Camaro, because that's where all the construction work is. The other cars are for all purposes nothing more than a different skin. Something Cobalt has shown can be done in UNDER 18 months. So has the Saturn Sky. That's what's going on this time.

Moving on to timeframe. Anything that reaches GM's final approval is 18-24 months away from production, depending on how much money is being thrown into the program. It's easy to look at GM's losses today and declare that GM's going to cancel or delay programs, but you need to look at what GM's PRIORITY PROGRAMS are and why.

Oshawa #2 is scheduled to end Grand Prix & Lecrosse production in 2008, and Oshawa #1 is scheduled to end Monte Carlo and Impala in 2009. No product is scheduled for these plants beyond these years. That has to be settled very, very soon.... as in THIS summer.

GM also realizes that it is missing alot of potential sales by not having a RWD sedan that's capable of being used as a "aspirational" performance sedan, & suitable for law enforcement and taxi use. Pontiac has a glairing hole in it's sedan lineup that's almost as bad as Chevy's. GM has known it needed a RWD performance coupe in the mold of the Mustang. GM also wants to have a vehicle line that showcases the dramatic shift in styling and the types of cars they produce. This RWD structure is THE top priority at GM now that GMT900 is done. Don't fool yourself that it isn't.

When judging how quickly things can be done, it's a mistake to use timelines from a few years ago. Of course, there's no way in hell you're going to see a Camaro in time for it's 40th anniversary. The current target date makes it (and a few other Zetas) solidly 2009 models. I've posted that if I wer betting my home and property, I'd say 2009. The reason I'd say 2009 (that's model year, not calander year) is because there is being time allowed for last minute goofs (like happened with Solstice) and a fairly conservative gestation time for OEM manufacturers.

GM has monthly meetings regarding the progress of certain projects, including the Zeta. By the time they reach the internet (or traditional sources) it's usually at least a month or 2 old (and obsolete) already. I've posted quite a few times that unless you are talking with someone with their hands directly in the pot, the info isn't going to be up to date. Also, GM talks about things after it happens. Whether it's Mark Reuss talking about what would have to be done to create a Camaro chassis, or Bob Lutz saying the GTO is definately on. These are old news that typically is cleared or is given parameters by GM's legal department (believe it or not, talking about future models in many cases is cause for a lawsuit by GM stockholders!) before it is mentioned.

So when I talk about a Pontiac sedan drawn up, or a GTO for 2008 (which I started mentioning back in January), or Camaro's seemingly shortening projected production date, it's not just pie in the sky optimism. Zeta is GM's most important project right now. They are pulling out all stops in getting these cars to market, taking what they've learned through other recently developed vehicles, and even essentially bringing alot of other projects to a near or total standstill.

I've laid everything out on the table as to what's going on (hopefully without burning any bridges), and hope this either provides clairification, or at least gives a bit of perspective of what's going on outside the view of what us info getters (including myself) normally get.

But in the end, it's still going to take a press release from GM or a car in the showroom before the facts are known.

I'm comfortable waiting till then.

I like the way this guy talks! And just to get you all excited - this paralells what I have heard 1000% - look for a 'concept' convertible Camaro next season and then release late in the year.

[Chazman]

Does anybody know what the powertrain is going to be?

There is a somewhat different powertrain line up now, than there was just several months ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see it change yet again by release time.

[Chazman]

What's the problem? Is it emmisions? Are the engines they are considering using going to be phased out? Are they holding out for better engines to be developed? Are they waiting to see what Ford does with its Mustang? Is there political infighting?

Probably alittle of most of that, plus marketing and production considerations/capacity.

[Guest Josh]

All I'm saying is the Monaro is out before the end of '08 and for all intents and purposes it is Zeta.

Who is to say that the Camaro will not be done and ready for an initial run in '07 with cars coming from Australia until a N.A. factory can come online.

GM will have a trump card in their back pocket regarding the contract coming up in September. If they can get a vehicle along and in the process of being made overseas, who is to say it's not leverage for more job cuts both here and abroad in Canada?

Think about it. You only have to build a few hundred, possibly 3,000 to convince the naysayers that it can't be made in Australia.

I'm under the impression that Holden will play more of a key role in the Camaro than just the roll they are playing now.

[evok]

Who is to say that the Camaro will not be done and ready for an initial run in '07 with cars coming from Australia until a N.A. factory can come online.

GM! Suppliers! and because of that Me!

[Chazman]

Think about it. You only have to build a few hundred, possibly 3,000 to convince the naysayers that it can't be made in Australia.

Camaros being built in Australia and imported to NA is EXTREMELY unlikely. The other way around is more likely for the "Monaro replacement".

[evok]

Camaros being built in Australia and imported to NA is EXTREMELY unlikely. The other way around is more likely for the "Monaro replacement".

Oh so very true - And I do not know if I will by it just yet from what I have been told - the NG Monaro might be just a rebadge Camaro.

[Chazman]

Oh so very true - And I do not know if I will by it just yet from what I have been told - the NG Monaro might be just a rebadge Camaro.

And may not even be called Monaro......

[evok]

And may not even be called Monaro......

Ahh the Canaro program - I laughed hard when I was told that.

[Chazman]

Well whatever it's called - the 'Monaro replacement' (note that I didn't call it Monaro), has a very strong likelyhood of being a version of the Camaro. And really, I think that's a pretty good idea.

[evok]

Well whatever it's called - the 'Monaro replacement' (note that I didn't call it Monaro), has a very strong likelyhood of being a version of the Camaro. And really, I think that's a pretty good idea.

Agree - from what I was told that may be what actually happens.

Given that Holden only sold about 2000 down under it may be a really smart move.

[guionM]

Are you refering to a Replicator?

No, not a replicator. C-Flex, combined with other programable systems GM intends to use.

With each plant conversion, GM is increasing its ability to build different vehicles on the same assembly line. A key element of that strategy is C-Flex, a programmable body shop tooling system that is replacing body style-specific tooling. According to Briggs, C-Flex allows multiple body panels, such as floor pans, deck lids, hoods and engine compartments, to be welded with the same set of programmable tools and robots. Model-specific tooling is not required.

The process depends on robots that can be programmed to perform multiple functions and will reduce by 50 percent or more the amount Chrysler traditionally spends to upgrade an assembly line in preparation for a new model.

It also cuts the turnaround time for retooling a line and gives vehicle designers more freedom because they are no longer restricted by rigid manufacturing systems, the company said.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../C01-267619.htm

http://www.assemblymag.com/CDA/ArticleInfo...,132322,00.html

http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=4441101

http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=4441101

[Ghost Dog]

Tru-Flex is where things are going.

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/030401.html

As for technology, as we take C-Flex [a programmable body shop tooling system that replaces body style-specific tooling and related equipment. It allows multiple body panels (floor pans, deck lids, hoods, engine compartments, etc.) to be welded with the same set of programmable tools and robots. Model specific tooling is not required.] and move it to Tru-Flex [a body shop enhancement that features a flexible underbody marriage assembly system and utilizes both C-Flex and multi-robot cooperative welding]

But even so, it's limited by parts and component availability.

While a Vehicle in Digital could in some ways be built at any Tru-Flex plant.(In theory) the parts and components may not be readily available.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[evok]

No, not a replicator. C-Flex, combined with other programable systems GM intends to use.

http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=4441101

Your earlier post made no sense.

"Word is interiors take only a year, and with this new machine that doesn't need tooled stampings, only....... "Computer Math" programed into it ........ to create a body panel, almost anything's possible."

In hindsight, if you were refering to C-Flex etc, like GD said that is old news.

"When GM picked up their pens again on Zeta mid last year, it was to develop the "Chevy" Zeta. GM has cancelled the new Trailblazer to fund this program, and postponed the next Malibu, and made alot of other changes."

And BTW - 361 was cancelled because of a bloated budget and shrinking market. You would need to understand what 361 was all about what lead to the NG360+. Because of Camaro - hahah

Edited March 24, 2006 by evok

[guionM]

Your earlier post made no sense. 

"Word is interiors take only a year, and with this new machine that doesn't need tooled stampings, only....... "Computer Math" programed into it ........ to create a body panel, almost anything's possible."

In hindsight, if you were refering to C-Flex etc, like GD said that is old news.

"When GM picked up their pens again on Zeta mid last year, it was to develop the "Chevy" Zeta. GM has cancelled the new Trailblazer to fund this program, and postponed the next Malibu, and made alot of other changes."

And BTW - 361 was cancelled because of a bloated budget and shrinking market. You would need to understand what 361 was all about what lead to the NG360+. Because of Camaro - hahah

Should have been clearer earlier.

GM intends the Zeta plant to be extremely advanced, and whatever the successor of C-flex, GM intends to use it.

361 was postponed because GM felt the money needed would be better used for the Zeta program (not Camaro exclusively, as you pointed mention). GM is prioritizing projects, and using refreshinings where they feel they can.

I'm aware you are attempting to ridicule me here, so I'll be more specific in the future.

Again, I'm quite comfortable in waiting to see how things will play out.

Edited March 24, 2006 by guionM

[evok]

Should have been clearer earlier.

GM intends the Zeta plant to be extremely advanced, and whatever the successor of C-flex, GM intends to use it.

361 was postponed because GM felt the money needed would be better used for the Zeta program (not Camaro exclusively, as you pointed mention).  GM is prioritizing projects, and using refreshinings where they feel they can.

I'm aware you are attempting to ridicule me here, so I'll be more specific in the future.

Again, I'm quite comfortable in waiting to see how things will play out.

Here we go in the do loop again, the 361 was cancelled and replaced with the 360NG+. The 361 was cancelled because it turned into an albotrose of a program with costs out of control and the investment could not be justified for the market transition for crossovers. 361 was a huge program.

As for the ridicule part - really your original post made no sense. All of GM's plants for some time have been retooling for a flexible body shop. Eventually all the plants will look like Eisenbach and LGR and DGR. You earlier post did not talk about the body shop but ...

Edited March 24, 2006 by evok

[97regalGS]

Here we go in the do loop again, the 361 was cancelled and replaced with the 360NG+.  The 361 was cancelled because it turned into an albotrose of a program with costs out of control and the investment could not be justified for the market transition for crossovers.  361 was a huge program.

when was the last time GM had a program that DIDN'T have costs that ran out of control?

[Chazman]

Not only was 361 getting too expensive. It was growing (in physical size that is). It was probably getting closer to the 900's in size.

[Chazman]

Tru-Flex is where things are going.

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/030401.html

But even so, it's limited by parts and component availability.

While a Vehicle in Digital could in some ways be built at any Tru-Flex plant.(In theory) the parts and components may not be readily  available.

I wonder ultimately, just how different .......those vehicles can be on the same Tru-Flex line?

Does anyone envision different architectures going down the same line at the same time?

[evok]

Does anyone envision different architectures going down the same line at the same time?

Yes

[Chazman]

Yes

Fascinating......

[evok]

Springhill should be the first for GM.

[Camino LS6]

Fascinating......

Agreed.

[91z4me]

Springhill should be the first for GM.

Will this be something GM puts in all plants or just certain ones, IE leave it out of high volume line specific plants like Delta Township but put it into variable lines with riskier products like Willmington?

[Chazman]

Anyone have any idea regarding the limitations of this system's flexibility?

I mean exactly how many different architectures can be assembled simultaneously on the same line?