C&D: AER 26 miles @ 80MPH, upper 30's @ sub 60MPG, 35MPG ICE

[GXT]

"GM’s recently revised electric-range claim is 25 to 50 miles, and we ended up in the low to middle of that band. Getting on the nearest highway and commuting with the 80-mph flow of traffic—basically the worst-case scenario—yielded 26 miles; a fairly spirited back-road loop netted 31; and a carefully modulated cruise below 60 mph pushed the figure into the upper 30s."

...

"We averaged 35 mpg for our gas-powered miles and saw 33–34 mpg at a steady, near-80-mph cruise—not exactly spectacular compared with today’s hybrids. Then again, no one should buy a Volt if they plan to run it extensively in extended-range mode."

...

"using only standard-household 120-volt power, it took about 13.4 kWh of electricity to replenish the Volt’s 9 kWh of usable energy"

Link:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_chevrolet_volt-feature_test

[pow]

Well, at least they've made the thing, and it's refined and it works well. I think they'll really start focusing on efficiency with Volt 2.0.

[pow]

Some rough calculations, for those deciding between Volt and Prius Plug-In. Basically the Volt, because of its larger EV range, has an advantage up to about 60 miles on a full charge. After that, the Prius Plug-In catches up with its better ICE efficiency.

VOLT

Electricity: 13.4 kWh * 12 cents = $1.61 for 35 miles

Gas: 1 gallon * $3.00 = $3.00 for 35 miles

Total: $4.61 for 70 miles

PRIUS PLUG-IN

Electricity: 3.5 kWh * 12 cents = $0.42 for 10 miles

Gas: 1 gallon * $3.00 = $3.00 for 60 miles

Total: $3.42 for 70 miles

[GXT]

Well, at least they've made the thing, and it's refined and it works well. I think they'll really start focusing on efficiency with Volt 2.0.

Can't you just imagine the "oh crap!" moment of the GM execs when they realized that the "sub-$30K, 40AER, 50+MPG, mass-market Chevy, Prius leap frog, use for any vehicle" had become their "$40K+, 32AER, 35MPG, 15-years-later-Prius-like, already outdone by the Leaf, doesn't work on anything but a non-lux compact"?

But they couldn't cancel it for fear of "Who killed the electric car... again?" hype.

[Z-06]

Some rough calculations, for those deciding between Volt and Prius Plug-In. Basically the Volt, because of its larger EV range, has an advantage up to about 60 miles on a full charge. After that, the Prius Plug-In catches up with its better ICE efficiency.

VOLT

Electricity: 13.4 kWh * 12 cents = $1.61 for 35 miles

Gas: 1 gallon * $3.00 = $3.00 for 35 miles

Total: $4.61 for 70 miles

PRIUS PLUG-IN

Electricity: 3.5 kWh * 12 cents = $0.42 for 10 miles

Gas: 1 gallon * $3.00 = $3.00 for 60 miles

Total: $3.42 for 70 miles

First off I do not know why you chose the 70 miles.

But let us say you are correct, the Prius Plug-in packs 1.6 kwhr of battery, which is fifth of Volt's 8 kwhr of usable battery. So if Volt's battery range is 35 miles, Prius battery range should be 7 miles. Assuming same ratio of electric input to charging for the Prius as the Volt, 1.6kwhr battery will require 2.68kwhr of electricity. Thus cost of electricity to charge Prius is $0.32.

Prius mpg highway is 48. It will thus need 1.31 gallons to make the remaining distance at a cost of $3.94. So the price of operation of Prius is $4.26 not $3.42.

But if we assume 40 miles. Cost of operation for that range is:

Volt:

Electricity: $1.61

Gas: $0.43

Total: $2.04

Plug-in Prius

Electricity: $0.32

Gas: $2.06

Total: $2.28

[Z-06]

Can't you just imagine the "oh crap!" moment of the GM execs when they realized that the "sub-$30K, 40AER, 50+MPG, mass-market Chevy, Prius leap frog, use for any vehicle" had become their "$40K+, 32AER, 35MPG, 15-years-later-Prius-like, already outdone by the Leaf, doesn't work on anything but a non-lux compact"?

But they couldn't cancel it for fear of "Who killed the electric car... again?" hype.

Again you skillfully ignore the $350/month lease, which is what GM is offering to match your leapfrogger Prius and fallen off the tree Leaf.

[GXT]

Some rough calculations, for those deciding between Volt and Prius Plug-In. Basically the Volt, because of its larger EV range, has an advantage up to about 60 miles on a full charge. After that, the Prius Plug-In catches up with its better ICE efficiency.

You should actually try calculating that, because it isn't true.

I've used your same numbers for my calculations as they seem fair.

<edit>

I should mention up front that this is based on the kWh to charge numbers from C&D for the Volt and MT for the Prius. I can't say for sure that their results are directly comparable.

</edit>

Anything less than 12 miles and the Prius and Volt are both pretty much all electric. Prius uses slightly less electricity and is much less expensive up front so I give it the win.

12-33 miles the PIP is actually still in the lead.

At 34 miles the Volt takes the lead ($1.562 for the Volt, $1.567 for the PIP)

By 36 miles the Volt has lost the lead. It never regains it. A 200 mile trip costs $15.75 in the Volt and $10.23 in the PIP.

So if you drive exactly 34 or 35 miles/day then the Volt will cost less to run. However it would never make up for the $10,000-$12,000 price premium, and of course you would probably be better off with the Leaf.

Edited October 11, 2010 by GXT

[regfootball]

the volt and fusion hybrid to me represent the two best hybrid solutions out now.

but really if you are considering volt vs prius, just look at pictures. the volt looks real. the prius is a TURD

[GXT]

the volt and fusion hybrid to me represent the two best hybrid solutions out now.

but really if you are considering volt vs prius, just look at pictures. the volt looks real. the prius is a TURD

I agree the Prius is a turd, but didn't you buy a 500 and an Aztec? Apparently looking like a turd can be overcome.

[regfootball]

500 was a decent looking car. the aztek was not attractive, but it swallowed more cargo than 90% of vehicles out there, ran great, and was a great buy for me at the time. Quiet and comfortable too.

Besides, the question is about hybrids so the 500 and aztek (spell it right next time please) are irrelevant, Mr. troll.

Fact is if you want a stylish hybrid, or one that is a real car, you will get a Fusion or a Volt.

If Nissan wants to allay fears of Leaf drivers being stranded, they should hire the Verizon guy for commercials....when their Leaf goes dead, he is there with the tow truck. "can you charge me now?"

[pow]

First off I do not know why you chose the 70 miles.

I chose 70 miles because that's roughly when the Prius Plug-In overtakes the Volt in cost per mile. As GXT pointed out, it's actually earlier than that, but 70 miles made for easier math.

But let us say you are correct, the Prius Plug-in packs 1.6 kwhr of battery, which is fifth of Volt's 8 kwhr of usable battery. So if Volt's battery range is 35 miles, Prius battery range should be 7 miles. Assuming same ratio of electric input to charging for the Prius as the Volt, 1.6kwhr battery will require 2.68kwhr of electricity. Thus cost of electricity to charge Prius is $0.32.

Prius's battery is 3 kWh total; it's 1.6 kWh bigger than the non-plug-in model. It takes 3.5 kWh to charge a plug-in Prius, because 0.5 kWh is lost in the conditioning and charging process. LINK. The size of battery doesn't correlate to range. There are many factors involved. Prius is a lighter and more efficient car, and it uses more of its battery, so its range is 13 miles, not 7. I assumed just 10 miles to make the math easier.

Prius mpg highway is 48. It will thus need 1.31 gallons to make the remaining distance at a cost of $3.94. So the price of operation of Prius is $4.26 not $3.42.

Prius Plug-In gets higher MPG than regular Prius even when it's not plugged in. MT averaged 57.5 MPG; I assumed 60 MPG just to make the math easier.

But if we assume 40 miles. Cost of operation for that range is:

Volt:

Electricity: $1.61

Gas: $0.43

Total: $2.04

Plug-in Prius

Electricity: $0.32

Gas: $2.06

Total: $2.28

If we assume 35 mile EV range for Volt and 10 mile EV range for Prius Plug-In, and 35 MPG for Volt and 60 MPG for Prius Plug-In at battery depletion:

VOLT

13.4 kWh * 12 cents = $1.61 for 35 miles

.14 gal * $3.00 = $.43 for 5 miles

TOTAL = $2.04 for 40 miles

PRIUS PLUG IN

3.5 kWh * 12 cents = $0.42 for 10 miles

0.5 gal * $3.00 = $1.50

TOTAL = $1.92 for 40 miles

[GXT]

Again you skillfully ignore the $350/month lease, which is what GM is offering to match your leapfrogger Prius and fallen off the tree Leaf.

I "ignored" the dealer markups on the Volt as well.

The lease prices are roughly the same, but leasing a new $41K+ car every three years will be more expensive than buying a $33K car. I know it isn't quite apples to apples, but with the $2500 downpayment on the Volt you are looking at ~$420+taxes/month to lease the Volt. Assuming a 33% 5 yr residual on the Leaf you are looking at ~$295/month over 5 years @ 5%.

[GXT]

500 was a decent looking car. the aztek was not attractive, but it swallowed more cargo than 90% of vehicles out there, ran great, and was a great buy for me at the time. Quiet and comfortable too.

Besides, the question is about hybrids so the 500 and aztek (spell it right next time please) are irrelevant, Mr. troll.

So you bought an ugly vehicle because of something beyond the appearance?

I don't even know how to respond to the "irrelevant" comment. I guess you missed my point while you were in the process of making it.

[FAPTurbo]

Well, at least they've made the thing

Pretty much sums up my attitude towards this vehicle.

I just hope GM has spent as much time on effort on HCCI for their gasoline engines, and on bringing small, clean diesels to North America as they have hyping this car up.

[GXT]

But let us say you are correct, the Prius Plug-in packs 1.6 kwhr of battery, which is fifth of Volt's 8 kwhr of usable battery. So if Volt's battery range is 35 miles, Prius battery range should be 7 miles. Assuming same ratio of electric input to charging for the Prius as the Volt, 1.6kwhr battery will require 2.68kwhr of electricity. Thus cost of electricity to charge Prius is $0.32.

I'd suggest you read this MT review:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1009_2010_toyota_prius_plug_in_hybrid_electric_vehicle_prototype_test/index.html

Because the numbers you are using are all incorrect. Plus they all incorrectly favor the Volt and incorrectly hamper the PIP.

For example:

We now know the Volt uses ~9kWh of battery, not 8. C&D indicates that it takes ~13.4kWh to fully charge the Volt.

As per MT, 1.3 is the size of the stock Prius batter, PIP uses a 3.0 which takes 3.5 to charge.

MT got an average of 11.7 miles electric, not 8 (Prius is more efficient than Volt).

MT averaged 57.5 MPG with their PIP when they did not charge the battery.

Plus picking 40 miles is almost as aribtrary as 70.

My numbers are correct based on the facts at hand. PIP is less expensive to drive at all ranged except 34 and 35 miles.

MT estimates the price of the PIP at $26,500 before rebate.

Edited October 11, 2010 by GXT

[GXT]

I chose 70 miles because that's roughly when the Prius Plug-In overtakes the Volt in cost per mile. As GXT pointed out, it's actually earlier than that, but 70 miles made for easier math.

<snip>

VOLT

13.4 kWh * 12 cents = $1.61 for 35 miles

.14 gal * $3.00 = $.43 for 5 miles

TOTAL = $2.04 for 40 miles

PRIUS PLUG IN

3.5 kWh * 12 cents = $0.42 for 10 miles

0.5 gal * $3.00 = $1.50

TOTAL = $1.92 for 40 miles

Hey pow,

Thanks for being so honest, earnest, reasonable and well informed. We may differ on some things but at least we can argue our sides in an informed manner without resorting to name calling.

[pow]

Hey pow,

Thanks for being so honest, earnest, reasonable and well informed. We may differ on some things but at least we can argue our sides in an informed manner without resorting to name calling.

I think for most people, who just look at the facts and figures and want a practical, efficient, and green vehicle, the PIP is a better choice than the Volt:

* Lower price

* Cheaper to run / uses less energy

* Less pollution (AT-PZEV)

* More space inside

* Carpool lane privileges

However, as a car enthusiast, I'd pick the Volt, simply because it's a fantastic looking vehicle, the interior is sportier, the driving dynamics are likely to be superior, and its made in the US. Toyota is on their fourth generation of the Prius, while the Volt is still brand new. By the second generation, I'm sure they'll find ways to make it cheaper and more efficient. I applaud GM for making this vehicle, and considering they started with nothing back in 2007, it's a great effort. This is a wonderful addition to the marketplace and it'll provide more options for those who want an alternative fueled vehicle.

[Z-06]

I chose 70 miles because that's roughly when the Prius Plug-In overtakes the Volt in cost per mile. As GXT pointed out, it's actually earlier than that, but 70 miles made for easier math.

Prius's battery is 3 kWh total; it's 1.6 kWh bigger than the non-plug-in model. It takes 3.5 kWh to charge a plug-in Prius, because 0.5 kWh is lost in the conditioning and charging process. LINK. The size of battery doesn't correlate to range. There are many factors involved. Prius is a lighter and more efficient car, and it uses more of its battery, so its range is 13 miles, not 7. I assumed just 10 miles to make the math easier.

Prius Plug-In gets higher MPG than regular Prius even when it's not plugged in. MT averaged 57.5 MPG; I assumed 60 MPG just to make the math easier.

If we assume 35 mile EV range for Volt and 10 mile EV range for Prius Plug-In, and 35 MPG for Volt and 60 MPG for Prius Plug-In at battery depletion:

VOLT

13.4 kWh * 12 cents = $1.61 for 35 miles

.14 gal * $3.00 = $.43 for 5 miles

TOTAL = $2.04 for 40 miles

PRIUS PLUG IN

3.5 kWh * 12 cents = $0.42 for 10 miles

0.5 gal * $3.00 = $1.50

TOTAL = $1.92 for 40 miles

Apparently Toyota Prius Fan-base provided me with the wrong information about the battery capacity. I had not looked at the MT article. The Prius with 3KWHr gives approx. 11 miles, while Volt with 8KWHr has a range of 35 miles, which suggests that both the batteries discharge with similar efficiency to provide approx. similar range/charge ratio. However, the efficiency of recharging the Prius is definitely better by about 22%.

Again I think the number 57.5 mpg is not the correct number, because this is the quote from Motortrend:

Now, let's change (again, at right) all of those previous dots to blue, and add the trips where plugging in before driving wasn't possible, in red.

One cannot assume that the battery has been drained completely for the car to use gasoline. All MT states is that the charging was not possible to completely recharge the 3KWHr battery. So the number can be definitely inflated if there was some charge left in the battery. Toyota claims that it uses the same Gen 3.0 system for the Plug-in Prius as the conventional one. Given the extra girth, it just is not physically possible to gain approx. 15-20% in mileage if the powertrain stays the same. People driving the Prius in real world at 80 mph have recorded numbers far lower than the 48 mpg highway rating. So a conservative estimate of 48 mpg should be used.

Another thing is C&D reports numbers for Volt at 80 mph speed, where we know that Volt may be losing a lot of engine power to supplant the electric unit at higher speeds. While Motortrend's test was clearly to see the higher limits of efficiency of Prius, C&D was less scientific. I think at lower speeds Volt's MPG would be higher while running only on gas because less drag to overcome and the engine will be operating at lower RPM. Not to that it would be close to Prius given the inherent inefficiency of a series powertrain, but we can see it reach 40 mpg. That is 15-17% gain, which will play significantly.

I think for most people, who just look at the facts and figures and want a practical, efficient, and green vehicle, the PIP is a better choice than the Volt:

* Lower price

* Cheaper to run / uses less energy

* Less pollution (AT-PZEV)

* More space inside

* Carpool lane privileges

However, as a car enthusiast, I'd pick the Volt, simply because it's a fantastic looking vehicle, the interior is sportier, the driving dynamics are likely to be superior, and its made in the US. Toyota is on their fourth generation of the Prius, while the Volt is still brand new. By the second generation, I'm sure they'll find ways to make it cheaper and more efficient. I applaud GM for making this vehicle, and consid

To your excellent points I may add. If gas is to exhaust tomorrow and our Crazy Government feels it is all micro-nuclear reactors from this point on, Prius will fall off the line after 11 miles and stay there. Leaves will go to 100 miles till they sit for another 4 hours to get charged if there is a charging station. Volt can go forever. It is a compromise certainly, but it is the better solution for the future. And there is no dead end to the technology.

I'd suggest you read this MT review:

http://www.motortren...test/index.html

Because the numbers you are using are all incorrect. Plus they all incorrectly favor the Volt and incorrectly hamper the PIP.

Just one was and that too from Toyota Prius humpers' own mouth piece. At least I had basis for those numbers and did not make up detergent box numbers.

Now go back and answer your flub about comparing before and after sale of GMAC in GM's reporting numbers back in 2007 or the flub about accepting Repub Issa's claim of GM shares need to be $130 each to be profitable. These are few of the many.

[pow]

Again I think the number 57.5 mpg is not the correct number, because this is the quote from Motortrend:

"Now, let's change (again, at right) all of those previous dots to blue, and add the trips where plugging in before driving wasn't possible, in red. They're a lot lower, right? However, in truth, they're actually better than I might have expected (particularly for a heavy Prius), with an average of 57.5 mpg, 7.5 above the standard car's 50 combined mpg. Are the lithium batteries, which also replace the nickel-metal hydrides for charge-sustaining operation, helping? Hmmm.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1009_2010_toyota_prius_plug_in_hybrid_electric_vehicle_prototype_test/trip_data.html#ixzz12AOUMjb8 "

One cannot assume that the battery has been drained completely for the car to use gasoline. All MT states is that the charging was not possible to completely recharge the 3KWHr battery. So the number can be definitely inflated if there was some charge left in the battery. Toyota claims that it uses the same Gen 3.0 system for the Plug-in Prius as the conventional one. Given the extra girth, it just is not physically possible to gain approx. 15-20% in mileage if the powertrain stays the same. People driving the Prius in real world at 80 mph have recorded numbers far lower than the 48 mpg highway rating. So a conservative estimate of 48 mpg should be used.

At 80 mph, PIP will likely get worse fuel economy than normal Prius, but in most normal driving circumstances, it should be better. With a bigger battery, PIP can recapture more energy through regen, and the car can power along using electricity more often.

To be honest, we're working with limited data here, so it's difficult to be completely accurate. We'll see if the EPA ever releases more facts and figures..

[Z-06]

To be honest, we're working with limited data here, so it's difficult to be completely accurate. We'll see if the EPA ever releases more facts and figures..

That is precisely my point. All these numbers are empirical or performed mostly through self hypothesizing research. And chances are that we will be never accurate.

As some of the people point out it how Volt is inferior to PIP or Leaf in number games. It is not always numbers as we have seen from messrs bankers. Volt is surely a compromise but with a real immediate solution to energy independence if gas were to go away or to stop money being siphoned to places of instability. Till the battery research makes it possible to go 500 miles on one charge with a 20 minutes recharge or micro nuclear fusion reactors sit in a car's engine bay or something else - Volt can make the world go by with either using connection to the grid or using ANY other alternative propulsion. Sure it is costly, but there is no cost to independence. Initial adopters will feel the heat, but that is how technology works till economies of scale and production costs are established.

As I had said previously Volt naysayers are hell-bent to bury it in the ground for whatever it takes. It is like calling Al Capone's to be born child to be the next con man so let us kill him now even before he is born.

[daves87rs]

I think for most people, who just look at the facts and figures and want a practical, efficient, and green vehicle, the PIP is a better choice than the Volt:

* Lower price

* Cheaper to run / uses less energy

* Less pollution (AT-PZEV)

* More space inside

* Carpool lane privileges

However, as a car enthusiast, I'd pick the Volt, simply because it's a fantastic looking vehicle, the interior is sportier, the driving dynamics are likely to be superior, and its made in the US. Toyota is on their fourth generation of the Prius, while the Volt is still brand new. By the second generation, I'm sure they'll find ways to make it cheaper and more efficient. I applaud GM for making this vehicle, and considering they started with nothing back in 2007, it's a great effort. This is a wonderful addition to the marketplace and it'll provide more options for those who want an alternative fueled vehicle.

Could not have said it better myself.

People tend to forget that this is going to be the first of many cars from GM...stuff like this will get worked into the full line of cars and trucks down the road.

[hyperv6]

The fact is we can toss all the numbers you want around and prices but the fact remains this is just the start of a new kind of car one no one else has ever tried.

This is like the first of the home computers. In time they got faster, able to store more info, smaller in size and cheaper. The same with this car is now GM has a system of suppliers now making parts. With a maket to sell the parts on now they can work to make them faster better and cheaper. The whole thing is untill the car is on the market and selling few MFG would want to invest the money into these things.

Also with the batteries, it is safe to say more money is now being invested into the batteries in one year than in 10 years in the past. There is now a market for them with the Volt, Leaf and other cars to make a good reason to invest. The company that makes the break through has a pile of money awaiting them. Given the incentive things should progress very fast.

I think we all see how electonics hit the market at high prices and then drop in short order as they get made in greater numbers. We will see the same with the Volt.

I can hardly wait to see where the Volt will be in 5 years from what it is today. Time will hardly stand still with this car. I suspect we also will see many firmware updates that will be able to be down loaded and update the car for the owners. It will be intersting to see what GM does there. Also a aftermarket can spring up that will modify these cars to do other things. Things that will not be subjected to EPA if the gas engine is not involved.

I figure by the time anyone figures out the numbers they will be out dated by next year anyway. This is a car there will be no stop in development from year to year. They will change more than colors.

Edited October 12, 2010 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

I highly doubt the economics of the Oldsmobile Curved Dash were particularly favorable either.