MT: "the engine can help turn the wheels directly above 70 mph"

[GXT]

Interesting tidbits coming out.

MT reports that the Volt DOES connect the ICE to the wheels in certain modes:

"The surprising news is that, after you deplete the 16-kW-hr battery and the engine switches on, a clutch connects the engine and generator to the planetary transmission so the engine can help turn the wheels directly above 70 mph. This improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10-15 percent."

I think it was wise for them to do this, but it does seem that GM's implementation is a lot more similar to Toyota's HSD than we were originally made to believe.

MT also reports that the car will only do full power for a period of time to protect the batteries:

"After 10 seconds of full-power acceleration (about 64 mph), the controller decreases the power output slightly to preserve the battery."

This is extended by 0.6s with the ice running.

They report that without turning on mountain mode the Volt will drop to "semi speeds" by the top of Loveland Pass. But if you turn on mountain mode 10-15 minutes in advance that is a non-issue.

The editors did manage to make the Volt go into limp mode by driving aggressively "while storming Big Tujunga Canyon and the Angeles Forest highway in Sport mode".

They also report, "At 25 degrees it takes as much energy to warm the car as to propel it". I'm kind of shocked at that.... 25 degrees is relatively warm for northerners.

No 110V outlet.

They didn't like the touch sensitive center stack that, "demanded too much attention to operate".

They mentioned that the Volt has a "flexible chin spoiler that drags on driveways a Ferrari chin clears".

On the positive side:

"While commuting, boss Angus MacKenzie noted, "This is where the Volt shines. Quick and nippy in traffic, it proceeds with a silent, oozing surge of acceleration, like a downsized Rolls-Royce Phantom." Executive editor Ed Loh concurred, adding, "Volt engineers have done an excellent job matching the 'efficiency threshold' to L.A. traffic. On the commute in this morning, I had no problem keeping the leafy green ball in the optimized zone. It's harder keeping our Fusion Hybrid running optimally.""

They found it quiet and the ICE switchover was not noticeable if the stereo was on. Sounds like the acceleration was also much better than the Prius.

Link:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1010_2011_chevrolet_volt_test/index.html

[smk4565]

As tested, the Volt was over $44,000, even with the rebate it is a $36,000 car. To me, that is too much money for a 4-seat compact has compromises. Having to prepare to climb hills, or worry about it dropping speeds halfway up the hill seems like a bit of an inconvenience. And I'm sure the plug-in Prius and Leaf are just as bad. The problem I see with electric cars is you are paying $15,000 or more than a traditional gas car and getting less car. I know they have to start somewhere, but I don't see plug-ins as viable until they equal or exceed acceleration and range of a gasoline powered engine at equal cost.

[GXT]

As tested, the Volt was over $44,000, even with the rebate it is a $36,000 car. To me, that is too much money for a 4-seat compact has compromises. Having to prepare to climb hills, or worry about it dropping speeds halfway up the hill seems like a bit of an inconvenience. And I'm sure the plug-in Prius and Leaf are just as bad. The problem I see with electric cars is you are paying $15,000 or more than a traditional gas car and getting less car. I know they have to start somewhere, but I don't see plug-ins as viable until they equal or exceed acceleration and range of a gasoline powered engine at equal cost.

I don't think having to flip a swtich 15 minutes before hitting the mountains is that big of a deal. That is nothing compared to having to plug and unplug every day.

The plug-in Prius and Leaf DON'T have these problems because they have their full power at all times whereas the Volt is apparently limited to much less power on the ICE (and yet it weighs more). But then you probably aren't going up there with your Leaf anyways.

I think the Leaf still makes sense for people who don't drive much. The plug-in Prius makes most sense of all... the battery is only a couple of KWh larger than the standard Prius (read: Should be relatively inexpensive) and other than the additional AER it will deliver approx. the same 50MPG as the non-plug prius when the AER is exhausted.

[Blake Noble]

I have never, and I mean never, seen more than four people in a five-seater coupe or sedan. Having two rear bucket seats is, in my opinion, a non-issue as long as you can actually seat someone in them.

The Volt's shortcomings are forgivable. If this type of car catches on, then what we're seeing is the dawning of the automobile all over again. Version 2.0 will have reduced weight and better range. A lot of the comments I'm reading are from people who seem to lack the mental capacity to try and see the bigger picture.

However, I will say that a viable alternative to/replacement for gasoline will go much, much farther in the long run. Current gasoline-only cars could still be driven and future cars like the Volt will make even more sense.

Edited October 10, 2010 by black-knight

[Drew Dowdell]

As tested, the Volt was over $44,000, even with the rebate it is a $36,000 car. To me, that is too much money for a 4-seat compact has compromises. Having to prepare to climb hills, or worry about it dropping speeds halfway up the hill seems like a bit of an inconvenience. And I'm sure the plug-in Prius and Leaf are just as bad. The problem I see with electric cars is you are paying $15,000 or more than a traditional gas car and getting less car. I know they have to start somewhere, but I don't see plug-ins as viable until they equal or exceed acceleration and range of a gasoline powered engine at equal cost.

There aren't any hills near you and I that the Volt would even worry about. It was down to Semi-Trailer speeds at the top of Loveland Pass which is 12,000 feet in elevation. That's a about 3 times the highest points in PA, MD, and WV. In fact, the only time you get an elevation over 5,000 ft east of Colorado, is Mt. Washington in Maine at 5,299.

Ideally, the Volt should suggest mountain mode if it detects through your map guidance that you should be engaging it.

The Prius has no mountain mode to allow you to prepare ahead of time, and the Leaf obviously doesn't since it can't regenerate on the fly.

[Drew Dowdell]

However, I will say that a viable alternative to/replacement for gasoline will go much, much farther in the long run. Current gasoline-only cars could still be driven and future cars like the Volt will make even more sense.

And that is the beauty of the Volt architecture. The generator really doesn't care what is spinning it does it? Someone comes out with a very low maintenance Wankel engine that runs on seaweed? Throw it in there. Someone else comes up with a diesel that runs on sugarcane? Throw it in there. GM decides that stubborn "mericans aren't going to give up gasoline until it's pried from their cold dead hands, make an HCCI version. Europe wants a biodiesel Volt? Throw it in there! As long as whatever is spinning the generator can run at a constant speed, efficiently, on command.... throw it in there.

You could even make a combo Photovoltaic solar and Sterling solar model and go completely fossil fuel free....

For the Leaf... what's the next step? Where does it go from here? Bigger batteries? Better batteries?....... that's about it.

The Prius is limited in it's ICE by still requiring the engine dynamics of a typical car... it has to operate efficiently at nearly all RPM with a constantly changing engine speed, where as the Volt's engine can just hang out at 3,000 rpm all day happily recharging the batteries.*

* I don't know the exact RPM the Volt operates at, but hopefully you get my point.

[A Horse With No Name]

Interesting discussion, thanks for your replies, guys...

[hyperv6]

The Volt is about the best option for this kind of car. Things will develope and improve in time.

The Mountain mode is no biggie as the Mountains are not going to sneek up on anyone and catch them by suprise.

The heater is a concern. I figured they may run a small gas heater or some other option as it will need something for anyone in the north. Even run the gas enigne in short cycles to keep hear. My Eco heats up in less than a mile so fast warm up's could be done.

The main thing this is a car that not everyone will want or can live with. It does improve on many areas traditional plug in's fail in.

At least Chevy will not have to loan out cars for long trips like Nissan has planned. That is one of the most sorry things I have ever heard. That is Nissan admitting they have a car that just can't meet the demands of an average customer who owns a single car.

I hope this car only enhances GM's image and does GM no harm in the long run. GM has had a history of even their best ideas bitting them in the a$$ down the road.

Edited October 11, 2010 by hyperv6

[pow]

So I guess that British magazine that said the Ampera's acceleration starts to go flat after 60 MPH and that there's a clutch that engages the engine to directly drive the wheels was right after all. This is really exciting, btw; it appears the embargo has been lifted, and all the magazines are starting to reveal more information about the Volt than we've ever known before.

[pow]

The Prius is limited in it's ICE by still requiring the engine dynamics of a typical car... it has to operate efficiently at nearly all RPM with a constantly changing engine speed, where as the Volt's engine can just hang out at 3,000 rpm all day happily recharging the batteries.*

* I don't know the exact RPM the Volt operates at, but hopefully you get my point.

The article says that the ICE is "programmed to allow rpm to track acceleration in town to meet customer expectations" and that it maxes out at 4,800 rpm when trying to generate as much electricity as possible.

But even if it did stay at a certain RPM level, that's not necessarily more efficient than a Prius, which does vary RPM depending on speed and load, because the engine doesn't directly power the wheels except when the clutch engages at 70+ MPH. That's why the plug-in Prius gets 65 MPG with the battery depleted compared to the Volt's 35 MPG.

[GXT]

The Prius has no mountain mode to allow you to prepare ahead of time, and the Leaf obviously doesn't since it can't regenerate on the fly.

I wouldn't fault the Prius for not having a Mountain Mode. Mountain mode is meant to address a limitation of the Volt design that doesn't apply to the Prius. When both cars are down to their ICE the Prius has an ~70% better HP to weight ration than the Volt.

[GXT]

And that is the beauty of the Volt architecture. The generator really doesn't care what is spinning it does it? Someone comes out with a very low maintenance Wankel engine that runs on seaweed? Throw it in there. Someone else comes up with a diesel that runs on sugarcane? Throw it in there. GM decides that stubborn "mericans aren't going to give up gasoline until it's pried from their cold dead hands, make an HCCI version. Europe wants a biodiesel Volt? Throw it in there! As long as whatever is spinning the generator can run at a constant speed, efficiently, on command.... throw it in there.

That's not the beauty of "the Volt architecture", that's the beauty of GM marketing. Somehow they have people acting like being able to run on different fuels is unique to "Voltec". As if there aren't other cars running on E85, propane, diesel, hydrogen, etc. Not that I would think this would be something for a "green" car to claim as a benefit.

For the Leaf... what's the next step? Where does it go from here? Bigger batteries? Better batteries?....... that's about it.

Did you really just argue that the stupid kid in the class is "better" than the smart kid because he has more room to improve?

The Prius is limited in it's ICE by still requiring the engine dynamics of a typical car... it has to operate efficiently at nearly all RPM with a constantly changing engine speed, where as the Volt's engine can just hang out at 3,000 rpm all day happily recharging the batteries.*

* I don't know the exact RPM the Volt operates at, but hopefully you get my point.

1) The Volt doesn't run the ICE at a set speed... it is all over the place except when it has fallen so far behind that it has no choice but to run full out. (There was a graph near the end of the article.)

2) Why wouldn't a Prius with a CVT be able to run at a fixed RPM just as well as the Volt?

3) Why do you assume that it is so much more efficient? GM chose not to implement it this way, CVT's aren't a magic bullet, and the reality is that the real-world numbers seem to show that the Prius is more efficient than the Volt.

[GXT]

The heater is a concern. I figured they may run a small gas heater or some other option as it will need something for anyone in the north. Even run the gas enigne in short cycles to keep hear. My Eco heats up in less than a mile so fast warm up's could be done.

One of the CAB members mentioned that the engine runs when any heat is needed (I guess if you had heated seats you could try to live with them... although they aren't going to defrost any windows). At real cold temps engines under load take several minutes to warm up, and 15+ minutes when not under load. I don't know how the Volt's ICE falls into that spectrum, but it does seem that if you live where it regularly gets down to 25 degrees you are going to be low 20's AER. Much colder than that and you are probably on the ICE almost all the time, and based on my experience with cold weather and the real-world numbers we have seen you will be getting mid to high 20's MPG with virtually no AER.

The main thing this is a car that not everyone will want or can live with. It does improve on many areas traditional plug in's fail in.

Which ones and how?

At least Chevy will not have to loan out cars for long trips like Nissan has planned. That is one of the most sorry things I have ever heard. That is Nissan admitting they have a car that just can't meet the demands of an average customer who owns a single car.

One of the most sorry things (not really, but I'm joining in on the hyperbole) I have heard is this attitude of consumerism that you need to own a vehicle capable of doing anything at any time. Really, I don't know how you can afford to drive a semi trailer every where you go in case you need to move. Or a truck in case you need to tow. Or a van in case you need to move 6 passengers. Or an off-road SUV in case you need to ford a stream. But mostly I don't know how you found one vehicle that could do ALL those things. And how does it feel to know that whenever you take a plane anywhere that that vehicle has TOTALLY let you down?

But seriously, I think that is an ok solution. Personally, I would take the $10,000 I saved buying the Leaf over the Volt and rent a CTS or equivalent (I figure I would need to experience some get-up-and-go after being stuck with a vehicle like the Volt/Leaf/Prius).

[hyperv6]

The advantages over a plug in is that it can be refuled on the fly with gas and continue along any where any time. Also it has the abliltiy of unlimited range per day. If may not be as efficent in the other mode but the fact is it will get there as vs a car that just won't make it. Lets face it a plug in that can not even make the San Deigo to LA run and back will always have a limited appeal to many normal commuters.

there is no perfect system but the Volt system would have more appeal to the normal non eco driver. I could be convinced to looking at a car with a Volt like system but I could never live or want any car that only provides 100 Mile range or less unless it can be refueled quickly in some way.

I just wish they could move the Hydrogen fuel cells forward but the refuled is limited on where it can be done and time to do so is still slow at many refueling stations if you can find one. Having driven one I found it functioned well and with less weight of the batteries drove much like a normal car.

As for you not everyone owns a Semi or van. That is so far off reality. We are talking a 4 passenger car here the bread and butter of everyones garage not a camper or Kenworth. Any car that one is to buy should meet the needs to get the owner anywhere in the country in less than a week. Or in the case of the leaf several weeks. The leaf in the cold will fall well short of the 100 miles recharging is slow and if you do push it till it dies how do you get it home. The reality is people daily run out of gas because they push it too far with a limited range that changes. Many will say I only need 10 more miles and only make it home on a hook.

Nissan should have just sold the car and made no offers of a loaner as they are pointing out the greatest flaw. the People who want a Leaf have already accepted that fact it take time to recharge and they are not going far. There is no way to hide that. The other fact is it will limit it sales to a much small group of buyers.

Like I have said none of these are perfect or cheap systems and I am sure they will all improve in time. the fact is the Volt system is the only one that would appeal to the non traditional electric car buyers. Other wise most drivers will never even consider a Leaf or other full electric car. The key to all these cars is to win the interst over time of the traditional buyer over time. We are only at the start of these cars and a lot of changes are in the offing.

I would not buy a Volt in the present state but Would consider this system with some future improvments as in time the cost will come down. the bottom line is I am glad GM did not just take the simple golf cart way out and offer just another electric car in need of improved batteries. When you come down to it the electric car no matter how they try to spin it really is not much better than the old Detroit Electrics of years ago. They face the same issues in the most important areas. They may be faster and go a little farther but they are still limited in refueling time and range and that is why they failed in the first place.

[regfootball]

I don't think having to flip a swtich 15 minutes before hitting the mountains is that big of a deal. That is nothing compared to having to plug and unplug every day.

The plug-in Prius and Leaf DON'T have these problems because they have their full power at all times whereas the Volt is apparently limited to much less power on the ICE (and yet it weighs more). But then you probably aren't going up there with your Leaf anyways.

I think the Leaf still makes sense for people who don't drive much. The plug-in Prius makes most sense of all... the battery is only a couple of KWh larger than the standard Prius (read: Should be relatively inexpensive) and other than the additional AER it will deliver approx. the same 50MPG as the non-plug prius when the AER is exhausted.

if the car has gps positioning and can sense where you are and where you might be going, perhaps the computer could be programmed to chaarge and operate depending on what location you are at and the potential for hilly terrain.

the complainers of the world (above) regarding the volt, this car has the right approach. there is not anything really wrong with the prius approach either. i think the volt has more flexibility and i believe a greater potential for the future.

all that GM has achieved with the Volt is pretty fantastic. my biggest beef with the volt is the cheap interior and the center stack being rather complicated. i think it will satisfy just about any owner that will buy it.

Edited October 11, 2010 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

That's not the beauty of "the Volt architecture", that's the beauty of GM marketing. Somehow they have people acting like being able to run on different fuels is unique to "Voltec". As if there aren't other cars running on E85, propane, diesel, hydrogen, etc. Not that I would think this would be something for a "green" car to claim as a benefit.

Today! You can't get past "today". The whole point of the Volt is that it removes gasoline as the lynch pin to mobility. Electricity is renewable and we know many many many different ways to make it. Having the electric drive train opens up a host of possibilities on how to generate that electricity. A sterling engine or propane turbine engine would NEVER be viable as the primary motive power in a vehicle.... but both of them can be used to generate electricity.

It's like you are griping about Ford upgrading the brakes in the Model-T to something other than wood because cars will never go above 30mph anyway.

Did you really just argue that the stupid kid in the class is "better" than the smart kid because he has more room to improve?

Did you really just make a super idiotic analogy?

The analogy I'd make is this one. You have two students. One majored in Basket Weaving and got a C-. The Basket it made were interesting, but not particularly useful. The other student did a duel major in chemistry and physics, with a minor in eco-sciences.... and got solid B's throughout for being capable of doing the work. Which student do you think is going further in life?

The Volt is the far more advanced power train here. You're heaping all this praise on Nissan for doing something Detroit Electric did in 1907. Their vehicles had an 80 mile range on nickle iron batteries.

So... yay Nissan... 103 years later, they beat Detroit Electric by 20 miles.

1) The Volt doesn't run the ICE at a set speed... it is all over the place except when it has fallen so far behind that it has no choice but to run full out. (There was a graph near the end of the article.)

2) Why wouldn't a Prius with a CVT be able to run at a fixed RPM just as well as the Volt?

3) Why do you assume that it is so much more efficient? GM chose not to implement it this way, CVT's aren't a magic bullet, and the reality is that the real-world numbers seem to show that the Prius is more efficient than the Volt.

1. Not at a set speed, but at a fairly constant speed. I do understand that it's not on/off.

2. Because of the dynamics of torque. The Pruis's electric motor smooths out differences between torque needs and torque supply. A standard gas engine with a CVT is all over the RPM band all the time.

3. It's more efficient to run an engine, any engine, at a constant rpm. Any time you have to change the RPM, you're losing energy.

[PurdueGuy]

I guess I feel let down that the generating capacity and/or electric motor power isn't sufficient to prevent needing a mechanical connection between the engine & wheels. It's added complexity and weight, and takes away from what was supposed to make the Volt truly different from the Prius.

Anyway, I ran some numbers to compare the Volt & Prius:

Assumptions:

Prius MPG: 65

Volt MPG: 35

Volt electric range: 35

Cost of gas: $3/gallon

Cost of electricity: $0 (too lazy to look up the actual cost, but it should be significantly less than cost of gas, so I think/hope this works fine for generalization)

Green comparison: Gallons of gas used - at between 70 and 80 miles driven and above, the Prius has used fewer gallons of gas

Cost comparison: operating cost - of course, at the same mileage range the winner of fuel cost switches. If a driver averages about 70 miles a day or less, the Volt will have a lower fuel cost.

Of course, the optimal driving habit to make the Volt financially advantaged over the Prius is pushing the car to it's full electric range without starting to use fuel. At this point, if the driver drives the car 320 days a year, they save about $450 in fuel over the Prius. If a driver averages 100 miles a day for 320 days a year, the Prius has about a $300 advantage.

If the $36k after rebate Volt is optioned comparable to an upper-end Prius with all options but no accessories, it's only about $2k more than the Prius, so the Volt could make a lot of financial sense for someone who, if they were buying a Prius would load it to the hilt, and is generally going to drive somewhere close to the electric range of the Volt.

Of course, a pure financial analysis would point toward buying a good used car, or at least a much less expensive one.

[Blake Noble]

So... yay Nissan... 103 years later, they beat Detroit Electric by 20 miles and, over a decade later, are just now matching the GM EV1.