Thoughts From A UAW Family Member

[Guest Josh]

This year is going to be an incredibly life changing year for everybody related to the auto world. From employees being offered in excess of $100k that have over 30 years of service to a company to retire to the overall down sizing work force of manufacturing jobs.

Looking at things, it's really kinda sad, yet sobering.

What many people fail to realize is that people often tend to not retire because they have given their entire lives to General Motors, Delphi, or any other automotive manufacturer that they know no better. These workers have a family away from a family, and often times many can't leave their brothers or sisters in their UAW local.

When people say that UAW members have it easy, I set back and I cringe. Coming from a family of second generation UAW workers, it's extremly painful to read the responses many have given regarding the current situation. To say that workers are paid too much, that they are "stupid" uneducated, or are downright morons is simply arrogant and ignorant.

Furthermore, many can't afford to retire, even with a full salary. The exorbant amount of healthcare costs that MediCare refuses to pick up makes it nearly impossible to retire and increasingly hard to find work with restrictions in the Big Three plants. It's no longer to keep the "food on the table" but it is now becoming more "keeping the perscriptions rolling in" that can't be done without the benefits Big Three employees have worked so hard for over their 30+ years of service.

So, I ask the next time you read a news story that the UAW is bad, or they don't understand GM's current situation, they do understand what General Motors is going through, but they also do realize the many hurdles that face them with "life after GM" that simply can't go ignored and can only be cured by lucrutive healthcare benefits.

Had my father not had the benefits the UAW and General Motors provided for him, it's safe to say he may have passed away from kidney cancer shortly after my 21st birthday. Emergency surgery had to be administered which was successful on the day before my birthday to remove one kidney. Losing nearly 20lbs. in nearly 3 weeks is a tell tale sign, there was nowhere to go but down.

I ask that you do not consider the UAW as "savages that do not understand" instead, look at things from their point of view when looking as issues such as this. The problems of the workers of 30+ years that have diseases and sicknesses from working on assembly lines that can't afford to retire or take dramatic cuts these major corporations ask of them overnight.

Thanks for reading.

Josh

[CARBIZ]

My heart goes out to your father. As a Canadian, I had thought UAW workers received full medical and dental, just like their Canadian brothers and sisters. Why is there such a gap with American coverage? Wouldn't the point of medical benefits have been to provide for people like your father even in retirement?

[Simon C]

Good read Josh. As a UAW member, it is hard to read the things that are said. But, I can see why people have a negative view of us. It is the way we are portrayed, "dumb", "demanding", "over paid", ... etc. Hey, there are some real idiots in here (UAW), but there are idiots in every work place. But the majority of UAW people are good, honest, and hard working.

Sometimes I let it get to me and I give some of my C&G's brothers an ear full. I've apologized for some of the things I've said, but not for all. I know everyone has their opinion ... I just want them to know more facts, so I'll toss something in a conversation to correct or show another view of whatever is being talked about.

Some of the things written about the UAW is true, some is not.

As for this year and the next, I know things are going to change. I just wonder how much.

[Inchworm]

"... many can't afford to retire, even with a full salary. The exorbant amount of healthcare costs that MediCare refuses to pick up makes it nearly impossible to retire... It's no longer to keep the "food on the table" but it is now becoming more "keeping the perscriptions rolling in" that can't be done without the benefits ..."

This is one of the many issues contributing to GM's problems. Yes, health care costs have skyrocketed, but when it is dumped on GM, it has an effect on the bottom line. When the company no longer makes enough money to actually stay in business, and goes out of business, ALL BENEFITS STOP. So which is better: fewer benefits for the forseable future [which can be negotiated upward if/when GM's profits are better, just as has happened in the past] or no benefits at all when the company goes belly up?

[91z4me]

As for this year and the next, I know things are going to change. I just wonder how much.

Unfortunately I think the changes will be more than anyone one wants and in the end will be bad news for everyone in the automotive sector, except stock holders.

[ehaase]

Ultimately, if Ford and GM are to continue producing vehicles in the United States, they are going to have to be able to pay wages and provide benefits comparable to what the transplants offer. I think I read (and I could very well be wrong) that Hyundai pays its workers in Alabama about $40,000 per year, with health insurance, a 401(k), but no pension.

[Justin Bimmer]

I am pro union and a proud member of a union. I just think it is a matter of time before the cycle of the American people shifts back to union involvement. As history will tell.... when unions go away the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until the inbalance causes major problems. Unions are what keep people employed and satisfied with their standard of living.

Most people don't realize that even if they are not part of a union, that it's because of unions as to why they make what they make.

Health care is going to increasingly become a huge problem as the baby boomers age and require more medical attention and hopefully somebody can do something about it and make it better for all.

I just think its funny how America now looks down upon GM and Ford and any other company that has heavy union involvement as being bad business people. With the help of the unions, these companies have done the right thing as much as they could to help create a true middle and upper-middle class in this country.

Who is going to buy all this stuff when everybody is working at Wal-Mart for min wage and no health care? For a country thats tied to productivity and consumerism... we sure are not giving our population the tools (money) to keep the cycle going.

[sciguy_0504]

Cadillac, you have to be able to see that the UAW is part of problem.

[Petra]

Health care is going to increasingly become a huge problem as the baby boomers age and require more medical attention and hopefully somebody can do something about it and make it better for all.

Yes... The Boomers will elect a President who will bring Socialized Heathcare.

[Justin Bimmer]

How is the UAW part of the problem? All they want is what is best for their membership. Maybe the problem is that they haven't been able to organize the other plants that are being built because right now our country is in dire straits when it comes to employment for the people that do not hold a College Degree or higher.

I care about people first and foremost. If you dont have people then who cares how cool the new Tahoe or GTO is. Who is going to buy that stuff if nobody has a job or enough money to spend on things besides food and medicine?

Bottom line is that there are two things right now that are keeping this economy from dumpster city...... low mortgage rates (which are going away and are causing housing prices to go so high that people can't afford them anymore) and the iraq war that is providing the military industrial complex with GDP boosts.

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well.

[regfootball]

Ultimately, if Ford and GM are to continue producing vehicles in the United States, they are going to have to be able to pay wages and provide benefits comparable to what the transplants offer.  I think I read (and I could very well be wrong) that Hyundai pays its workers in Alabama about $40,000 per year, with health insurance, a 401(k), but no pension.

that's really it in a nutshell. somehow, outside competitive factor will either kill it or bring it into line, union or not. adapt or die.

[regfootball]

Yes... The Boomers will elect a President who will bring Socialized Heathcare.

non-boomers, BEND OVER!!!!!

[regfootball]

How is the UAW part of the problem? All they want is what is best for their membership. Maybe the problem is that they haven't been able to organize the other plants that are being built because right now our country is in dire straits when it comes to employment for the people that do not hold a College Degree or higher.

I care about people first and foremost. If you dont have people then who cares how cool the new Tahoe or GTO is. Who is going to buy that stuff if nobody has a job or enough money to spend on things besides food and medicine?

Bottom line is that there are two things right now that are keeping this economy from dumpster city...... low mortgage rates (which are going away and are causing housing prices to go so high that people can't afford them anymore) and the iraq war that is providing the military industrial complex with GDP boosts.

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well.

if toyota and hyundai etc. is forced to get unionized, they will pull out of the US and you will essentially see even more made in Asia and India product take over the slack. Its because the US auto industry is competing globally. It would actually erode the US UAW union position even more.

I think an autoworker does deserve a fair compensation. Problem is, the globalization of the industry is essentially destroying that notion. Its a problem that ultimately the auto industry cannot solve.

It'd be best if left to the free market to decide, but unfortunately customers are flocking more and more to foreign marques. Ironically, a lot of folks shun GM and Ford because they do not want to reward companies that operate with what is perceived to be gratuitous pay structures. This indicates a public sentiment that is less about sympathy and more about apathy or in some cases loathing.

As with everything, it will likely have to hit a dramatic rock bottom first before any sort of reform in either the public's thinking or the economic structure of how we do business. It would be fair to say that workers, ex- workers, customers, shareholders and the company/employees will all see hard times.

It's gonna get ugly and there's no guarantee fo anything getting better.

Edited March 15, 2006 by regfootball

[ehaase]

Yes... The Boomers will elect a President who will bring Socialized Heathcare.

You're from Canada. There's really no big demand among Americans for national health care. If there were, Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich would be President now. Although I am ultra conservative on most other issues, I think a strong argument can be made for national health care because I don't think that free enterprise actually exists or can exist in health care. I think Thomas Friedman or Paul Krugman of the NY Times have written on this issue. I personally think that doctors are way overpaid, even considering their education and work hours. However, the doctors have a powerful lobbying group, and Americans do seem to love their local doctor.

[Ghost Dog]

Yes... The Boomers will elect a President who will bring Socialized Heathcare.

Yeah. There a lot of Changes coming.

[ellives]

This statement alone confirms how out of line union wages are. I'm not convinced the statement is accurate but clearly there is a downward drag to wages being brought to the table by the transplants.

... clipped ...

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well.

Edited March 16, 2006 by ellives

[ellives]

Nobody is questioning what the UAW wants. The problem is they want it at the expense of GM when GM doesn't have the resources any more. Do you believe your own words when you blame the lack of unionization of Toyota and Honda on the economy? The problem is they can't make a reasonable case for themselves. You even say it - lack of college degree or higher. The bar is being raised everywhere and Americans need to raise their game if they want to stay in it.

I agree with your assessment that low mortgage rates and the military are keeping things going. Both amount to a simple fact: The US is borrowing their continued prosperity. Eventually we'll be tapped out and then the other shoe will drop. The governmental borrowing we can blame on George W. Bush. His era will be over in due time as well and history will prove his administration as one of the worst in US history.

I don't get this statement at all "Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well." To me the union proposition argues away from the concept of supply and demand. Care to explain?

How is the UAW part of the problem? All they want is what is best for their membership. Maybe the problem is that they haven't been able to organize the other plants that are being built because right now our country is in dire straits when it comes to employment for the people that do not hold a College Degree or higher.

I care about people first and foremost. If you dont have people then who cares how cool the new Tahoe or GTO is. Who is going to buy that stuff if nobody has a job or enough money to spend on things besides food and medicine?

Bottom line is that there are two things right now that are keeping this economy from dumpster city...... low mortgage rates (which are going away and are causing housing prices to go so high that people can't afford them anymore) and the iraq war that is providing the military industrial complex with GDP boosts.

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well.

Edited March 16, 2006 by ellives

[Justin Bimmer]

if you have a huge supply of workers unemployed then the demand for that worker will be low wages like wal mart and other jobs that have no future or ability to support even themselves.

You need money to buy things. I don't know about you but its pretty hard to buy much on 9.00 an hour. Thats how much I made while I was working my way thru college. No way could I buy a new car or a home or even a new television set for that matter after I got done paying my bills.

Unions keep wages up and heathcare around. The reality is that you can't expect everybody to graduate from college. You need work for these people to do or they turn to crime or welfare. Give them work, give them a real wage, then they can buy things. In order to make money, you have to spend money.

Product is important. Costco is a prime example. They have the best product, the best prices, and they take care of their workers. Thats why you will NEVER see me step foot in a Sam's Club.

[ellives]

if you have a huge supply of workers unemployed then the demand for that worker will be low wages like wal mart and other jobs that have no future or ability to support even

themselves.

There is a flaw in this logic. The law of supply and demand will actually force wages to a natural equilibrium point. If the wage gets so low people can't support themselves, they'll get out of the business, thereby reducing the supply and the wages will go up. The argument always ends up being about what the equilibrium point is.

You need money to buy things. I don't know about you but its pretty hard to buy much on 9.00 an hour. Thats how much I made while I was working my way thru college. No way could I buy a new car or a home or even a new television set for that matter after I got done paying my bills.

Nope - you won't buy much on 9 bucks and hour but obviously there are plenty of people around making more since the economy didn't collapse.

Unions keep wages up and heathcare around. The reality is that you can't expect everybody to graduate from college. You need work for these people to do or they turn to crime or welfare. Give them work, give them a real wage, then they can buy things. In order to make money, you have to spend money. 

Agreed the unions have historically kept wages up. The problem is the domestic (unionized) automobile industry has also been on a steady decline for a long, long time. One could argue the wages have been artificially kept high during this period. As I have said many times before, unless the UAW can get into all manufacturers, the union model simply fails. It has to be everywhere or it doesn't work. If some aren't union, then they have a cost advantage and will eventually put the union shops out of business, although it clearly may take a long time.

This is the main reason municipal employees are all unionized. There is no profit and loss statement to be concerned about with their employers since they are paid by taxpayers which of course have unlimited funds. In some respects they probably have to unionize because otherwise they'd never get a raise because no taxpayer is going to vote for an increase in taxes. A vote down of a propose tax hike just happened last night in my town. Teachers are the ones I loath the most however, since they only work nine months a year and have a pension, whine about how little money they make but (at least in my town) won't police themselves and get rid of poor performing teachers who have tenure.

Product is important. Costco is a prime example. They have the best product, the best prices, and they take care of their workers. Thats why you will NEVER see me step foot in a Sam's Club.

On this we agree. Costco does a good job with everything from what I can see. Unfortunately they are too far from me to be useful but I don't shop at Sam's either for what that's worth. I try to give my business to local vendors whenever I can. My cars are repaired by a local mechanic and I buy from him whatever services he sells if I need them.

Edited March 16, 2006 by ellives

[Justin Bimmer]

Ok, here is the deal about teachers. Teachers are paid, in california at least, only the months that they work. Their salaries can be split to pay over a 12 month period. I find it very troubling that the MOST important investment in our future, the teaching of children is a lower priority as far as pay scales as to paying prison guards (who dont have more than a HS degree).

Teachers that don't perform need to be sanctioned. But so do administration and PARENTS. How do you sanction an non performing parent?

[ellives]

The pay scales I can't comment about because I just don't know the details. Like I said, it's a good thing they're unionized.

No idea on the non-performing parent as well. The problem is no one likes to deal with sticky issues - and this is certainly one of them. We probably all know parents who we've wondered about but have never taken action.

Of course having said this, have you seen the price of a private college these days? Personally I think a kid who has the potential will do well at any college, public or private. Nevertheless these private colleges enjoy very competitive recruitment every year. Somebody is paying the bills eagerly. Of course private colleges are also key centers for wealth re-distribution by charging top dollar published tuition prices and then providing scholarship money to those that can't afford it.

Ok, here is the deal about teachers. Teachers are paid, in california at least, only the months that they work. Their salaries can be split to pay over a 12 month period. I find it very troubling that the MOST important investment in our future, the teaching of children is a lower priority as far as pay scales as to paying prison guards (who dont have more than  a HS degree).

Teachers that don't perform need to be sanctioned. But so do administration and PARENTS. How do you sanction an non performing parent?

[regfootball]

There is a flaw in this logic. The law of supply and demand will actually force wages to a natural equilibrium point. If the wage gets so low people can't support themselves, they'll get out of the business, thereby reducing the supply and the wages will go up. The argument always ends up being about what the equilibrium point is.

only thing is that Korean, China and India will be what we will end up having equilibrium with.

[regfootball]

The pay scales I can't comment about because I just don't know the details. Like I said, it's a good thing they're unionized.

No idea on the non-performing parent as well. The problem is no one likes to deal with sticky issues - and this is certainly one of them. We probably all know parents who we've wondered about but have never taken action.

Of course having said this, have you seen the price of a private college these days? Personally I think a kid who has the potential will do well at any college, public or private. Nevertheless these private colleges enjoy very competitive recruitment every year. Somebody is paying the bills eagerly. Of course private colleges are also key centers for wealth re-distribution by charging top dollar published tuition prices and then providing scholarship money to those that can't afford it.

private colleges are as much about maintaining the order of the good old boy network more than tremendously substantial academic differences........i.e. putting a brand name on your education.

Edited March 16, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Ok, here is the deal about teachers. Teachers are paid, in california at least, only the months that they work. Their salaries can be split to pay over a 12 month period. I find it very troubling that the MOST important investment in our future, the teaching of children is a lower priority as far as pay scales as to paying prison guards (who dont have more than  a HS degree).

Teachers that don't perform need to be sanctioned. But so do administration and PARENTS. How do you sanction an non performing parent?

our country is seriously out of whack in what we pay executives vs. things like scientists and teachers.

I wouldn't have any problem forcing big time execs to cough up 50 grand each to pay down the debt. that's probably a drop in the bucket compared to whatever tax shelters they've all had over the years.

[Snate]

private colleges are as much about maintaining the order of the good old boy network more than tremendously substantial academic differences........i.e. putting a brand name on your education.

Basically. You don't learn anything different at a private school than a public school...its just a snob thing.

Public universities aren't exactly getting cheap though.

[ellives]

I absolutely agree with this. My own boss is an example. No kids - makes over $1M / year plus his stock which he's sold another $1M worth so far this year and he kids me about when I'm buying a new STS. I had to point out the cost of college to which he responded in pure shock saying "I don't have to worry about that."

Problem is no one can do anything about it other than stockholders and as long as they're making a profit, they won't complain either.

our country is seriously out of whack in what we pay executives vs. things like scientists and teachers.

I wouldn't have any problem forcing big time execs to cough up 50 grand each to pay down the debt.  that's probably a drop in the bucket compared to whatever tax shelters they've all had over the years.

[ellives]

"Cheap" is a relative thing. In my area, public colleges (and good ones at that) are less than 1/2 the cost of private ones. Still the best bargain out there for a quality education as far as I'm concerned.

Basically.  You don't learn anything different at a private school than a public school...its just a snob thing.

Public universities aren't exactly getting cheap though.

[regfootball]

my dad is convinced we will have a civil class war someday, sooner than later. i'm not sure how soon, but i tend to agree with him. Someday, the 'lemmings' of society will figure out how to manipulate the economy to 'brong down the man', although in order to do that, they'll have to bring down the 'well paid politicians' too.

[ellives]

Well see herein lies the problem. Our markets are open now and we're dragging the wages and therefore standard of living up for these countries. Unfortunately, and conversely, as a result we're dragging our own standard of living down. The horse is out of the barn now though. The only way to slow thing down now is to slap tariffs on cars and clearly GWB has no interest or intention of doing that - he and the congress are selling the country out.

I don't agree we'll have equilibrium with where these countries are now, but we'll certainly be closer together than we are now.

only thing is that Korean, China and India will be what we will end up having equilibrium with.

[Snate]

our country is seriously out of whack in what we pay executives vs. things like scientists and teachers.

I wouldn't have any problem forcing big time execs to cough up 50 grand each to pay down the debt.  that's probably a drop in the bucket compared to whatever tax shelters they've all had over the years.

The market determines the pay. Sure more pay for teachers would be nice...but would the taxpayers want to pay extra...usually not. Same thing applies for execs...if Company A didn't pay them enough and Company B offered them the same job for more pay they would most likely take it. There really is no loyalty in business. The ridiculous exec pay is basically the result of the price competition. Not that I agree with it and I do support heavy taxation...but it is what it is.

[Snate]

"Cheap" is a relative thing. In my area, public colleges (and good ones at that) are less than 1/2 the cost of private ones. Still the best bargain out there for a quality education as far as I'm concerned.

Yes true...the university I went to cost about 11K a year when I went. Now its over 13K and that was only 3 years ago. It's rising about 7-8% a year...in a decade it could cost as much as the private schools of today.

Throw in the fact that Dubya raised the interest rate for student loans to make it more expensive (to pay for his little wars) and it becomes even worse.

[ellives]

He's probably right. It's the lemmings that are causing the problem now. They've gotten the idea that Toyota is better and following themselves right over the cliff. I've been shocked by the number of 50+ people are buying Toyotas now instead of the typical Buicks and Grand Marquis-type cars. Sad really.

Until the lemmings group together and DEMAND the politicians enact legislation requiring congressional term limits we'll continue to have the thievery we have in congress now and the likes of Ted Kennedy and the rest of them. We only have ourselves to blame for not getting organized. Wow there's a theme here in this thread and it just came full circle. Go figure.

my dad is convinced we will have a civil class war someday, sooner than later.  i'm not sure how soon, but i tend to agree with him.  Someday, the 'lemmings' of society will figure out how to manipulate the economy to 'brong down the man', although in order to do that, they'll have to bring down the 'well paid politicians' too.

[ellives]

The problem is the 7-8% growth rate is not sustainable. Nobody is getting that as an annual raise, or at least very few. Of course there are always banks that are happy to lend the student and their parents money to pay the schools for the privilege - only to saddle them with debts for 20 years after graduation. Not my idea of an exciting scenario.

Heck I just had a discussion with my brother who is just having his first kid and I pointed out that one school I've looked at recently is 10 times the cost of what it was when I went there 20 years ago. At $40K/year for 4 years, the total now would be about $160K plus for an education. My brother did the quick math in his head and realized if you use the same ratios, 10 times $160K is $1.6 million for his kid's education - a daunting number in a stagnant economy struggling to pay for healthcare and retirement costs for baby boomers.

Yes true...the university I went to cost about 11K a year when I went.  Now its over 13K and that was only 3 years ago.  It's rising about 7-8% a year...in a decade it could cost as much as the private schools of today.

Throw in the fact that Dubya raised the interest rate for student loans to make it more expensive (to pay for his little wars) and it becomes even worse.

[Snate]

The problem is the 7-8% growth rate is not sustainable. Nobody is getting that as an annual raise, or at least very few. Of course there are always banks that are happy to lend the student and their parents money to pay the schools for the privilege - only to saddle them with debts for 20 years after graduation. Not my idea of an exciting scenario.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It will slowly make college not an option for people. It's rising well above the inflation rate. Even if you financed 4 years today at a university at say 15K a year...that's 60K. Over 20 years thats about 300 bucks a month...not exactly an inviting extra payment for people struggling to get out on their own. Hell..that's more than I pay for my car.

[regfootball]

I know what you mean, my brother in law's father, a lifetime Patrolman raised on Ford's and Gm's bought a new Avalon. He previously had bought new Cadillacs. He might have been a good candidate for a Lucerne, but couldn't wait. That, and all his boomer friends told him he had to buy a Toyota.

GM really needs to tap into the essence of why buyers like Toyos and such and break that code. Some of the answers are obvious, some are not.

He's probably right. It's the lemmings that are causing the problem now. They've gotten the idea that Toyota is better and following themselves right over the cliff. I've been shocked by the number of 50+ people are buying Toyotas now instead of the typical Buicks and Grand Marquis-type cars. Sad really.

Edited March 16, 2006 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

The decline of Empire.

[The O.C.]

How is the UAW part of the problem? All they want is what is best for their membership. Maybe the problem is that they haven't been able to organize the other plants that are being built because right now our country is in dire straits when it comes to employment for the people that do not hold a College Degree or higher.

I care about people first and foremost. If you dont have people then who cares how cool the new Tahoe or GTO is. Who is going to buy that stuff if nobody has a job or enough money to spend on things besides food and medicine?

Bottom line is that there are two things right now that are keeping this economy from dumpster city...... low mortgage rates (which are going away and are causing housing prices to go so high that people can't afford them anymore) and the iraq war that is providing the military industrial complex with GDP boosts.

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Supply and demand is something that works in labor as well.

I don't know where you live (heavy blue-collar, unionized region??) or if your lifetime career experience includes any non-union, service-related, white-collar experience.....but to me...it appears that the vast majority of the burgeoning industries currently here in the USA are non-union-related....and have always been non-union-related. AND that includes the transplant manufacturers in the south.

We may have our problems (traffic, high cost, LOTS of people) but the actual job and business economy here is BOOMING right now in southern California. AND, if you research the numbers, you will see that the state of California is STILL heavily invested in manufacturing (just not auto manufacturing any more.)

BUT, the state over the last 20-30 years has been progressively moving towards a more service-oriented economy (high-tech, etc.) because many, a few decades ago, had the forsight to realize that the "Hollywood" entertainment industry wouldn't dominate the economy as much as historically it has due to increased competition from Canada, India, etc. AND with the cutbacks in defense and military spending, the state HAD to find another solution.

My point is.....I don't see the "doom-and-gloom" for the country in WHOLE that you and many others predict as a result of GM and their struggles with the union and their retirees and employees. I predict to say that this phenomenon (and it IS an unfortunate phenomenon) is highly regionalized. The rest of the country has moved on. And in many cases, it's all the better for it.

I don't have anything against the "good" or "majority" of union workers....I have a big problems with unions themselves, their intents, and their supposed "relationship" with management.

As a employee of a major corporation (and a former, 11-year white-collar GM employee) my loyalties and enthusiasm have always resided with my company and the management of my company. I could NEVER imaging harboring more loyalty or respect for a union organization over the very company that signs my paycheck. I think to work for a company with that mindset is a very sad state of affairs.

The company I work for now is a multi-billion-dollar company and this company, and this industry has never been unionized. And you know what? I have never been treated better by a company and it's management, and I have never worked for a higher-class organization.

[The O.C.]

The county that I live in has 15% unemployment and if toyota were to set up shop here (doubtful as this is california and they wouldnt want to put up with the environment and workers comp issues) people would be LINED UP for a mile to work for 9.00 bucks an hour and be happy.

Where in California do you live that has 15% unemployment?????????

[The O.C.]

GM really needs to tap into the essence of why buyers like Toyos and such and break that code.  Some of the answers are obvious, some are not.

EXACTLY! That, my friend, is The Secret!

Some things are easy to determine.....for example, it's no secret that the BMW 3-Series is an excellent automobile and certainly lives up to its billing as "The Ulitmate Driving Machine" in its segment.

BUT, what is it that makes it one of the top-ten best-selling cars in Orange County, for example? Is it the quality of the drive? Is it the performance? Is it the brand recognition and the associated ego-boost that many people feel?

Why do people feel that a $500 lease payment for a 325i is a valued purchase decision when so many good cars (even some GM ones) can be had for so much less?

[CARBIZ]

OC, very good points. Split loyalties don't benefit anyone. To add to this, I would like to point out that the world is very different than it was 75 years ago when the UAW rose to power. It is no longer reasonable to expect to make $30k+ a year with a grade 10 education. We as individuals must constantly upgrade and retrain ourselves if we want to stay on top of our game.

I am seeing an end to the socialist ways of the past. We may be entering a darker, more selfish age but I don't believe that society as a whole can afford to carry the burdens that we undertook int the '60s and '70s.

I don't think anybody anticipated the lengthening of our life expectancy and the explosion of drugs and treatments of the past 25 years. At some point, society is going to have to start putting a dollar value on a human life or we will all end up in the poor farm.

[regfootball]

EXACTLY!  That, my friend, is The Secret!

Some things are easy to determine.....for example, it's no secret that the BMW 3-Series is an excellent automobile and certainly lives up to its billing as "The Ulitmate Driving Machine" in its segment.

BUT, what is it that makes it one of the top-ten best-selling cars in Orange County, for example?  Is it the quality of the drive?  Is it the performance?  Is it the brand recognition and the associated ego-boost that many people feel? 

Why do people feel that a $500 lease payment for a 325i is a valued purchase decision when so many good cars (even some GM ones) can be had for so much less?

in all honesty a lot of it is too many folks who are all about 'brand' and just trying to be popular. You can't tell me even half the bimmer drivers are auto enthusiasts. They buy BMW like they buy Ralph Lauren.

[Justin Bimmer]

I live in Fresno..... almost every county in the valley has double digit unemployment numbers. The union I belong to is a White Collar teachers union right now. I have and still do work for non-union employers and I am an independent contractor in many indevaors. But I have a college degree and am on my way to getting a professional degree as well.

It is possible to have good pay and good relationship in non-union shops.... but everybody I know that is a member of a union is better off than a non union counterpart that has a similar job.

Service industrys are double edged knifes though.... on one hand you could work for EA or Google and have a great job and salary. (but most of those jobs require a college or professional degree) or on the other hand you could work for Walmart or McDonalds and have to still be on food stamps and medicare or some other form of public assistance.

[sciguy_0504]

Basically.  You don't learn anything different at a private school than a public school...its just a snob thing.

Public universities aren't exactly getting cheap though.

I take offense at that statement. Yes, there are people who only want to go to Harvard and Yale but they are few in number and will eventually see the real world once they leave their precious campuses. Out of the 10 colleges I applied to, 2 were public and the rest were private (I think, it has been a while). It just ended up being that way because I did not have a choice one way or another, I could have cared less. In the end, I chose a private college because it provided an opportunity that the rest of the schools on my list did not. I see where you are coming from but a blanket statement could not be further from the truth.

[sciguy_0504]

Well see herein lies the problem. Our markets are open now and we're dragging the wages and therefore standard of living up for these countries. Unfortunately, and conversely, as a result we're dragging our own standard of living down. The horse is out of the barn now though. The only way to slow thing down now is to slap tariffs on cars and clearly GWB has no interest or intention of doing that - he and the congress are selling the country out.

I don't agree we'll have equilibrium with where these countries are now, but we'll certainly be closer together than we are now.

How does slapping tariffs on foreign cars help? Will you put a tariff on the Camry even though it is made in the US? Oops...there goes Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Benz, Hyundai, Subaru, etc. and you are stuck with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people out of a job and that is only your first problem. Will you put a tariff on Chrysler since it is foreign-owned?

During the early years of the Great Depression, the Hoover administration put tariffs on thousands of imported goods (Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act) which actually made the depression worse (look it up if you do not believe me). Protectionism only slows down the world economy and putting tariffs on foreign-made cars will only lead to tit-for-tat actions between the world's major economies and that will lead to Great Depression II. Guaranteed. Hint: it has something to do with supply and demand.

[ellives]

How does slapping tariffs on foreign cars help?  Will you put a tariff on the Camry even though it is made in the US? Oops...there goes Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Benz, Hyundai, Subaru, etc. and you are stuck with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people out of a job and that is only your first problem.  Will you put a tariff on Chrysler since it is foreign-owned?

As all things are like this, the issue is complicated. Respect Toyota for having the forethought to start building cars in the US. For us to now slap tarriffs on foreign cars is fruitless. To your point of listing off all the foreign manufacturers, MY point is that if there were tariffs on these cars 25 years ago, there wouldn't be many of those on your list in existance. In fact some have said that GM could have easily bought Toyota for less than the money they've wasted in other areas. I did not intend to suggest tariffs are a solution to the current problem.

During the early years of the Great Depression, the Hoover administration put tariffs on thousands of imported goods (Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act) which actually made the depression worse (look it up if you do not believe me).  Protectionism only slows down the world economy and putting tariffs on foreign-made cars will only lead to tit-for-tat actions between the world's major economies and that will lead to Great Depression II.  Guaranteed.  Hint:  it has something to do with supply and demand.

I am quite familiar with the laws of supply and demand and have explained some of the intricacies of same on this very forum. You *did* hit the nail on the head for what my original point actually was however when you said "slows down..." My real point was if tariffs could be enacted on foreign cars, the market slide GM is experiencing would slow down a bit and give them a breather to figure out what they want to be when they grow up. As things stand now the alligators are nipping at their heals and it's tough to make rational decisions when this is happening.

[The O.C.]

in all honesty a lot of it is too many folks who are all about 'brand' and just trying to be popular.  You can't tell me even half the bimmer drivers are auto enthusiasts.  They buy BMW like they buy Ralph Lauren.

True.....but they BUY them......instead of a GM vehicle......

See....?

It doesn't matter if the consumer is just trying to be "popular".....or trying to boost their ego......

BMW (in this case) is getting the business.......not GM (Cadillac?)

[The O.C.]

I live in Fresno..... almost every county in the valley has double digit unemployment numbers. The union I belong to is a White Collar teachers union right now. I have and still do work for non-union employers and I am an independent contractor in many indevaors. But I have a college degree and am on my way to getting a professional degree as well.

It is possible to have good pay and good relationship in non-union shops.... but everybody I know that is a member of a union is better off than a non union counterpart that has a similar job.

Service industrys are double edged knifes though.... on one hand you could work for EA or Google and have a great job and salary. (but most of those jobs require a college or professional degree) or on the other hand you could work for Walmart or McDonalds and have to still be on food stamps and medicare or some other form of public assistance.

Fresno? Oh, okay that makes sense. Down on the coast (away from the agricultural industry) the economy is ALOT stronger.

I go to Fresno probably once a quarter for business. It's not a bad little town (actually with a population almost $500K it's not that "small.") Certainly it doesn't have the quality-of-life appeal of L.A., O.C., or the Bay Area, but I've noticed how the city has really grown....lots of new development north of town, new houses, new office buildings, etc.

The Tower District is small, but really cool too.

I think you guys up there see your economy's highs and lows dramatically influenced by the Agriculture industry....much like Detroit and the U.S. auto industry.

[caddyfan2004]

I am pro union and a proud member of a union. I just think it is a matter of time before the cycle of the American people shifts back to union involvement. As history will tell.... when unions go away the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until the inbalance causes major problems. Unions are what keep people employed and satisfied with their standard of living.

Most people don't realize that even if they are not part of a union, that it's because of unions as to why they make what they make.

Health care is going to increasingly become a huge problem as the baby boomers age and require more medical attention and hopefully somebody can do something about it and make it better for all.

I just think its funny how America now looks down upon GM and Ford and any other company that has heavy union involvement as being bad business people. With the help of the unions, these companies have done the right thing as much as they could to help create a true middle and upper-middle class in this country.

Who is going to buy all this stuff when everybody is working at Wal-Mart for min wage and no health care? For a country thats tied to productivity and consumerism... we sure are not giving our population the tools (money) to keep the cycle going.

What YOU fail to realize is that any company that is forced to pay non-competitive wages (ie union wages) is doomed to bankruptcy in a global economy. I can guarantee you that when the unions finish driving all the manufacturing companies with unionized labor out of business, the companies that take their place will NOT be unionized. Just look at the Japanese transplants in this country.

[Chicagoland]

The 'knuckle draggers' who think that import brands should just be 'outlawed' got to wake up and realize that the good old days of 1972 are never coming back. And no, chrome bumpers, wire wheel covers, floaty ride, and padded vinyl tops are not what 'real Amurricuns' want.

[91z4me]

..., wire wheel covers, floaty ride, and padded vinyl tops are not what 'real Amurricuns' want.

I will disagree with that because I have seen new DTSs, Lexus GSs, and Grand Marquis with all of those things within the last 6 months.