6-stroke engines

[loki]

Link

very interesting read, would this make it a hybrid too? lol

edit, switched topic title

Edited March 15, 2006 by loki

[loki]

does this need to move to the powertrain forum?

[the_yellow_dart]

Why has this not been done before??

[PurdueGuy]

will be interesting to see how it turns out...

[rkmdogs]

I too saw the article in Autoweek on the patent for this process, but there were many unanswered questions in the brief release.

After I took my first Thermodynamics course some 40+ years ago, I had a

similar idea. My idea though, was not to introduce steam, but have a purge

stroke on the engine, where cool fresh air would be flushed through the combustion chamber, to remove residual burned gases, but more importantly, to

cool the combustion chamber down. The theory was(is) if you can alter the temperature difference between the unburned air/fuel charge and the burned

or combusted gases, you can achieve more work out of the charge sample.

Theoretically, it sounds great. Practically, what it does not account for is the

work required to overcome internal friction and the parasitic losses of pumping the

piston/rod mass up and down for another 2 strokes! Then there was the issue

of introducing this cool-air charge, atmospherically. It boiled down that it was not practical on a typical Otto 4-stroke cycle type of engine.

Now on the claims of Bruce Crower, no mention is made of the parasitic losses

due to the extra 2 strokes, nor how they would introduce this steam into the

combustion chamber, especially on a cold engine, without doing lubricant

wash-down of the cylinder walls, causing contamination and worse yet,

lubricant failure!

Note too, in the article that the demonstration was on a single cylinder engine,

without the complexity of multiple cylinders to contend with, nor the other

internal problems that occur with multiple cylinder designs.

Oh yeah, this "steam" injection, or rather water injection---- how do you keep it from becoming steam BEFORE you get it into the combustion chamber? How is this

water spray going to be introduced? Where does it come from?

Water/alcohol injection systems were developed for aircraft during WWII, for

piston engines to overcome some high altitude problems. This was then

applied to some high-compression auto engines to prevent "knock" with poor

quality gasolines available during shortage times.

With all of this "history" what is the "new" stuff that allowed Crower to receive a patent? The article did not reveal that info!

[loki]

i did find the autoweek article, it did have more info in that article..but not so much in the details.....

[Newbiewar]

i spent a good 3 months trying to design a 4 stroke steam engine... just couldnt figure out if the energy required to vaporize the water would be retained by the combustion.

waters cumbustion is extremely powerful! water expands 1600x after combustion... the only thing is to have enough heat to vaporize the amount inside the cylinder... then you also must have a renewable source of water... because once you heat it you'd probably have to cool it down and thus another wasted energy source... but... the idea has promise...

[PurdueGuy]

would really stink to have something malfunction & cause hydrolock.

[rkmdogs]

i spent a good 3 months trying to design a 4 stroke steam engine... just couldnt figure out if the energy required to vaporize the water would be retained by the combustion.

waters cumbustion is extremely powerful! water expands 1600x after combustion... the only thing is to have enough heat to vaporize the amount inside the cylinder... then you also must have a renewable source of water... because once you heat it you'd probably have to cool it down and thus another wasted energy source... but... the idea has promise...

??????? Last time I looked, water doesn't burn! What were you useing as fuel?

And I presume you were talking about an external combustion device, not an internal combustion engine!

You are talking about state change, from liquid to vapor to steam. Yes, the on-line

article mentioned that he would have to carry as much water as fuel, but did not comment about this weight problem!

As far as a wasted source, you could always exhaust it through a series of

pipes and have your own calliope!!!

[76ChevyTrucker]

My thoughts are the same as Purdue on this one, what if something happens (akin to an EGR valve sticking open) and you get an endless stream of water in the engine....then you end up with a chocolate milkshake in the oil pan and a seized motor, sounds like a wonderful idea to me.....lets do it....to the imports!

[Newbiewar]

??????? Last time I looked, water doesn't burn! What were you useing as fuel?

And I presume you were talking about an external combustion device, not an internal combustion engine!

You are talking about state change, from liquid to vapor to steam. Yes, the on-line

article mentioned that he would have to carry as much water as fuel, but did not comment about this weight problem!

As far as a wasted source, you could always exhaust it through a series of

pipes and have your own calliope!!!

you are correct... water does not burn, and its not flamible... but it does combust over a certain temperature... at standard atmospheric pressure that temperature in which water combusts is 212 degrees F or 100 Celcius. and when water does convert into water vapor, it expands 1600 times the original size, thus combustion... the chemical change from water to gas. the only problem with the combustion engine is that it would increase the atmospheric pressure requiring the themperature of the water to be higher prior to combustion, then you release the pressure, and kaboom you have yourself one hell of a kick, and some hot ass vapors...

[Mike The Canadian]

my problem with this, is why use water?

we're running out of water as it is...

an alternate source would be nice (gm's working on hydrogen so far)

[rkmdogs]

you are correct... water does not burn, and its not flamible... but it does combust over a certain temperature... at standard atmospheric pressure that temperature in which water combusts is 212 degrees F or 100 Celcius.  and when water does convert into water vapor, it expands 1600 times the original size, thus combustion... the chemical change from water to gas. the only problem with the combustion engine is that it would increase the atmospheric pressure requiring the themperature of the water to be higher prior to combustion, then you release the pressure, and kaboom you have yourself one hell of a kick, and some hot ass vapors...

Newbiewar,

I think we are having a problem in terminology. My Concise Chemical & Technical

Dictionary says, "COMBUSTION"- Chemical union with oxygen, producing heat and or flame commonly limited to the burning of fuels."

What you are talking about is called the latent heat of vaporization.(Look it up).

It does not expand if it is confined, the container pressure increases!

I think you need to go back and re-read some physics 101 or even some

thermodynamics!

Thanks anyway for your thoughts, although mis-guided.

[rkmdogs]

my problem with this, is why use water?

we're running out of water as it is...

an alternate source would be nice (gm's working on hydrogen so far)

We are not running out of water, just that some current forms are not usable,

i.e., potable!

Water treatment plants exist all over the world to de-salineate sea water---- but

that costs money too!

And where do you think the hydrogen comes from? The primary source right now is the electrolysis of water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Not trying to be smart Mike, but you don't have all the facts straight!

AND, as I originally said when I talked about my multi-cycle design, the additional

cycle was a "purge" cycle using plain ol' AIR!

[Sixty8panther]

Sure, even us amateurs can poke holes in shi theory and patent but this just goes to sh ow what I've been saying pretty muhc since I became a teenager....

Phazing out Internal Combustion for more comlpex (i.e. Hybrid) concepts is NOT the way to go. There's probably a lot of life left in I.C. if it is allowed to evolve and adapt.

Very cool read.

[rkmdogs]

Phazing out Internal Combustion for more comlpex (i.e. Hybrid) concepts is NOT the way to go. There's probably a lot of life left in I.C. if it is allowed to evolve and adapt.

Very cool read.

Hey Sixty8,

If you want to take a look at new concepts, and you're hung up on water,

go check out www.blacklightpower.com

Their concepts will blow your mind........... and they are coming!

The petroleum companies are scared to death, and all the electric power companies want to buy in on the ground floor!

Edited March 19, 2006 by rkmdogs